trousers Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 The manufacturing decline in Britain, tha nation that gave the world the Industrial Revolution, was caused by successive Labour governments in cahoots with greedy power hungry Trade Unionist the like of which seems to be reappearing in the guises of Serwotka and Crow. All Thatcher did was try to put the crippled dog out of its misery with a 12-bore. An inconvenient and unpalatable truth (for some) If this country had privatised it's manufacturing industries a decade earlier than Thatcher we'd still have a thriving manufacturing sector to this day. There again, I could be talking bow locks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 (edited) The manufacturing decline in Britain, tha nation that gave the world the Industrial Revolution, was caused by successive Labour governments in cahoots with greedy power hungry Trade Unionist the like of which seems to be reappearing in the guises of Serwotka and Crow. All Thatcher did was try to put the crippled dog out of its misery with a 12-bore. There was a lot of irresponsible union militancy, especially in ther car industry, but an awful lot of **** poor management also. A friend of mine used to run sections of the assembly line at Fords Dagenham in the early 1980s. One of the reasons he was successful there was because he was 6'3" 16 stone and powerful. When he came out of his office to sort out problems on the line he'd, literally, take a short length of scaffold pipe with him to defend himself because some of the guys on production were violent psychos who wouldnt take kindly to being told what to do, but couldnt be sacked because of the unions. By the same token, every time Fords had excess inventory they couldnt sell they would deliberately provoke a strike by sacking someone so they could close the plant down without paying anyone until the stock was cleared, then settle the dispute and go back to normal. After Fords he went to work at Toyota when Burnaston in Derby opened. Totally night and day different. Instead of trying to dictate everything with no explanation Toyota emphasise all working together to the same goal. Edited 25 November, 2011 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 An inconvenient and unpalatable truth (for some) If this country had privatised it's manufacturing industries a decade earlier than Thatcher we'd still have a thriving manufacturing sector to this day. There again, I could be talking bow locks Very little of UK manufacturing industry was in state control. I can only think of British Leyland and Rolls Royce, both of whom were nationalised to save them from bankruptcy. Our problem was we tried to compete on price instead of quality, unlike the Germans. Huge tactical mistake because there will always be a developing nation who can make stuff cheaper than a relatively high wage economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 (edited) Very little of UK manufacturing industry was in state control. I can only think of British Leyland and Rolls Royce, both of whom were nationalised to save them from bankruptcy. British Aerospace ? National Coal Board ? British Steel ? Whatever the power generation authority was called ? GPO ? Ok, I know some of this is not exactly direct manufacturing. And in the rest of your post you compare to German manufacturing. You simply cannot underestimate how much of Germany's overall economic strength comes from the car industry; I know because I work in it. Compare and contrast to British Leyland... Edited 25 November, 2011 by alpine_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 An inconvenient and unpalatable truth (for some) If this country had privatised it's manufacturing industries a decade earlier than Thatcher we'd still have a thriving manufacturing sector to this day. There again, I could be talking bow locks It's the latter, sadly. The decline of manufacturing in the UK has most of all to do with investment - and most of that is governed by the City banking sector, which Thatcher de-regulated with the 'Big Bang' in 1987. It set off a chain reaction that resulted in Britain's suffering the worst effects of the credit crunch. In some ways worse than that, though, her legacy was the stranglehold that British banks took on manufacturing here. Today, the City's investment in UK manufacturing accounts for a miniscule 3% of its activity. Which is why the manufacturing sector is constantly complaining about being driven out of business by the banks! The rest of the City's portfolio is in 'asset investment' (much of it commercial property), bonds, etc, and the clever financial instruments, like derivatives, that got us into this mess in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 It's the latter, sadly. The decline of manufacturing in the UK has most of all to do with investment - and most of that is governed by the City banking sector, which Thatcher de-regulated with the 'Big Bang' in 1987. It set off a chain reaction that resulted in Britain's suffering the worst effects of the credit crunch. In some ways worse than that, though, her legacy was the stranglehold that British banks took on manufacturing here. Today, the City's investment in UK manufacturing accounts for a miniscule 3% of its activity. Which is why the manufacturing sector is constantly complaining about being driven out of business by the banks! The rest of the City's portfolio is in 'asset investment' (much of it commercial property), bonds, etc, and the clever financial instruments, like derivatives, that got us into this mess in the first place. Manufacturing industry in the UK was already dead or at least terminal before 1987 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 There again, I could be talking bow locks It's the latter, sadly. To be fair, I had a hunch that I was talking nonsense (just for once) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 (edited) British Aerospace ? National Coal Board ? British Steel ? Whatever the power generation authority was called ? GPO ? Ok, I know some of this is not exactly direct manufacturing. And in the rest of your post you compare to German manufacturing. You simply cannot underestimate how much of Germany's overall economic strength comes from the car industry; I know because I work in it. Compare and contrast to British Leyland... True I'd forgotten about several companies. I think the point stands though, because although they were big names in the news a lot, as a percentage of British manufacturing there were quite small. Much of the capacity we have lost has been the smaller sized companies. Of the three manufacturers I worked for in and around Southampton, all of therm have now gone (after I left I hasten to add). Much of the rest of nationalised companies were service oriented or utilities. Interesting league table here on car manufacturing. I had no idea how far down the US has fallen compared to the size of its domestic market. http://www.worldometers.info/cars/ Edited 25 November, 2011 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 True I'd forgotten about several companies. I think the point stands though, because although they were big names in the news a lot, as a percentage of British manufacturing there were quite small. Much of the capacity we have lost has been the smaller sized companies. Of the three manufacturers I worked for in and around Southampton, all of therm have now gone (after I left I hasten to add). Much of the rest of nationalised companies were service oriented or utilities. Interesting league table here on car manufacturing. I had no idea how far down the US has fallen compared to the size of its domestic market. http://www.worldometers.info/cars/ Well, its still 4th. Also the global manufacturing of cars is much more complex nowadays, with companies siting factories abroad or sub-contracting production abroad. Without even taking into account the multi-tiered sourcing of components. For example, did you know Aston Martins are now made here in Austria ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Manufacturing industry in the UK was already dead or at least terminal before 1987 Largely irrelevant. 1987 was a quarter of a century ago. In that time, manufacturing could have been transformed. (Germany rebuilt its manufacturing base much more quickly after the war, as did Japan - and the new manufacturing giants like India and China have emerged in less time). You can't simply dismiss the dismal fact that manufacturers here, who are crying out for investment, just aren't getting it from banks who devote a whopping 3% of their activity to manufacturing investment. THAT is what has pushed the decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3958678/Mobbed-in-a-Moscow-McDonalds-and-bombed-in-Brightonthe-amazing-life-of-Maggie-Thatcher.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Well, its still 4th. Also the global manufacturing of cars is much more complex nowadays, with companies siting factories abroad or sub-contracting production abroad. Without even taking into account the multi-tiered sourcing of components. For example, did you know Aston Martins are now made here in Austria ? No, didn't know about Aston Martin. Is that the very small car they have to produce so that their overall range doesnt exceed a certain level of emissions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Largely irrelevant. 1987 was a quarter of a century ago. In that time, manufacturing could have been transformed. (Germany rebuilt its manufacturing base much more quickly after the war, as did Japan - and the new manufacturing giants like India and China have emerged in less time). You can't simply dismiss the dismal fact that manufacturers here, who are crying out for investment, just aren't getting it from banks who devote a whopping 3% of their activity to manufacturing investment. THAT is what has pushed the decline. Rubbish. Investors and banks discovered that they could a much better return from non-manufacturing investments because they were driven away from manufacturing industry in the first place. Germany and Japan got collosal levels of aid from the US after the war (much, much more than Britain, its supposed ally, got) Maybe UK manufacturing industry could be transformed, if people working in it would accept f**k-all pay and sh*t working conditions and health and safety for a few decades, just like your shining examples of China and India. But then the return is higher for investors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 No, didn't know about Aston Martin. Is that the very small car they have to produce so that their overall range doesnt exceed a certain level of emissions? Has that been released to the market yet ? I think they have parallel assembly lines for their prestige models over in the Graz area at Magna Steyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 25 November, 2011 British Aerospace ? National Coal Board ? British Steel ? Whatever the power generation authority was called ? GPO ? Ok, I know some of this is not exactly direct manufacturing. And in the rest of your post you compare to German manufacturing. You simply cannot underestimate how much of Germany's overall economic strength comes from the car industry; I know because I work in it. Compare and contrast to British Leyland... Germanys big advantage is that most of their manufacturing is family owned, as oposed to being stock market listed. I work for a family owned business and when they are well run they are the best model there is fir success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 (edited) Has that been released to the market yet ? I think they have parallel assembly lines for their prestige models over in the Graz area at Magna Steyr. Apparently available in Japan and Hong Kong so far. Bit of a crazy one really because whilst Bentley, Rolls Royce, Ferrari etc can all artificially offset their emissions against small cars in their parents other companies Aston Martin as a standalone cant so have to produce this. http://www.astonmartin.com/cars/cygnet Edited 25 November, 2011 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Rubbish. Investors and banks discovered that they could a much better return from non-manufacturing investments because they were driven away from manufacturing industry in the first place. Germany and Japan got collosal levels of aid from the US after the war (much, much more than Britain, its supposed ally, got) Maybe UK manufacturing industry could be transformed, if people working in it would accept f**k-all pay and sh*t working conditions and health and safety for a few decades, just like your shining examples of China and India. But then the return is higher for investors. If you spout less and research more, you'll find that even major figures within the City and the regulators of it realise the immense damage done by the city's lamentable failure to invest in UK manufacturing. (Go and look at any number of statements on this by Adam Posen, for example) And note that, as elsewhere in Europe with a FAR stronger manufacturing base than the UK (Germany, France, Scandinavia, for example) workers are NOT on poverty-level wages for precisely the reason that the kind of manufacturing done there is more often high-tech, and therefore calls for highly highly skilled workers. Of course there are much better immediate returns on derivatives...or were. Because now, all these - in your view - brilliant investments languish as toxic stock in 'bad banks' pinned upright by taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 i agree that thatcher was great she did not waste northsea oil paying for the mass unemployment of having a overvalued pound which made our manafacturing industries impossible and was happy that those nasty germans had it all wrong to to have a long term industrail policy .no we had trickle down economics by making the rich richer the crumbs will drop down to working people but i think people can see it now it was a con trick then but still being swallowed by her devoted followers . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Germanys big advantage is that most of their manufacturing is family owned, as oposed to being stock market listed. I work for a family owned business and when they are well run they are the best model there is fir success. Not sure about that one, either, a lot of big companies are listed now. However, there is a greater variety of corporate models over here. Family ownership does play a greater role in the German economy (e.g. BMW), but there is also a foundation/collaborative model called locally "stiftung", probably the most well-known example of this is Bosch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 If you spout less and research more, you'll find that even major figures within the City and the regulators of it realise the immense damage done by the city's lamentable failure to invest in UK manufacturing. (Go and look at any number of statements on this by Adam Posen, for example) And note that, as elsewhere in Europe with a FAR stronger manufacturing base than the UK (Germany, France, Scandinavia, for example) workers are NOT on poverty-level wages for precisely the reason that the kind of manufacturing done there is more often high-tech, and therefore calls for highly highly skilled workers. Of course there are much better immediate returns on derivatives...or were. Because now, all these - in your view - brilliant investments languish as toxic stock in 'bad banks' pinned upright by taxpayers. So how is this miraculous recovery in the UK manufacturing sector gonna happen, however much money the City chucks at the situation, if it can only be "high-tech" to succeed, when a large proportion of UK kids leave school unable to read and write, let alone use a slide-rule ? I am not surprised the City has cut its losses with manufacturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 So how is this miraculous recovery in the UK manufacturing sector gonna happen, however much money the City chucks at the situation, if it can only be "high-tech" to succeed, when a large proportion of UK kids leave school unable to read and write, let alone use a slide-rule ? I am not surprised the City has cut its losses with manufacturing. No one is calling for anything 'miraculous' - merely that the manufacturing that is out there, and has a great product to make and sell, can actually secure the kind of investment that brings a recovery about. And that means reforming a City that has grown greedy and yet obscenely dependent on taxpayers for its decisions to profit from now-toxic 'assets'. As I say, go and read Alan Posen on this - he does actually know what he's talking about! - and then see if it changes your view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Germanys big advantage is that most of their manufacturing is family owned, as oposed to being stock market listed. I work for a family owned business and when they are well run they are the best model there is fir success. It was this model that I heard the some CBI bods championing at a regional meeting a couple of weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 (edited) No one is calling for anything 'miraculous' - merely that the manufacturing that is out there, and has a great product to make and sell, can actually secure the kind of investment that brings a recovery about. And that means reforming a City that has grown greedy and yet obscenely dependent on taxpayers for its decisions to profit from now-toxic 'assets'. As I say, go and read Alan Posen on this - he does actually know what he's talking about! - and then see if it changes your view.i think some of the posters seem to forget we need to make things to sell around the world to pay are way in the world.the trouble is we are a them and us society and we had these problems since the 1950s hence the film i,m alright jack and lost our leadership in cars,motor bikes etc for failing to invest,modernise . government in the 1960s and 70s tried to get business to invest a nd unions to work together to copy the german methods of long term success but unfortunely we don,t plan long term and prefer everyman for himself . Edited 25 November, 2011 by solentstars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 25 November, 2011 It was this model that I heard the some CBI bods championing at a regional meeting a couple of weeks ago. It makes sense. Family owned businesses reinvest more and take out less and they treat their people better. It's a win win situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 The Germans couldn't shift more than 60% of the bonds they put on the market today, perhaps the interest rate is too low. Thing is unlike most of their eurozone counterparts they have disguised debt in their figures.Something about bank guarantees not being counted in what they owe whereas the others count them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/3958678/Mobbed-in-a-Moscow-McDonalds-and-bombed-in-Brightonthe-amazing-life-of-Maggie-Thatcher.html When will Blair's be out? I'm sure that this Sun 'critic' will be just as supportive of that film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 25 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Some fantastic videos can be found here. http://www.youtube.com/user/thatcheritescot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Some fantastic videos can be found here. http://www.youtube.com/user/thatcheritescot I'm just curious. Do you support: The building of the Channel Tunnel. Moves towards monetary union with Europe. Increasing public spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 I'm just curious. Do you support: The building of the Channel Tunnel. Moves towards monetary union with Europe. Increasing public spending. Does not compute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 Does not compute. All of them were Thatcher decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 25 November, 2011 Share Posted 25 November, 2011 All of them were Thatcher decisions. Yeah, I know Verbal - I was referring to our mutual friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 Yeah, I know Verbal - I was referring to our mutual friend I did wonder. But I also suspected he was too scared to ask so used your post to spell it out that his blonde bombshell fantasy ain't all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 I actually feel sorry for verbal. Genuinely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 When will Blair's be out? I'm sure that this Sun 'critic' will be just as supportive of that film. Much like his career, B-liar's film will be a work of fiction so won't be reviewed by their politics editor. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 26 November, 2011 Share Posted 26 November, 2011 All of them were Thatcher decisions. She was only human... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now