pedg Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 THEY? What do you mean THEY? Are you differentiating people due to their skin colour? And Celebreating what? That a black player scored 20 goals in a season? That a black player won 10 international caps. WHy does it matter what their skin colour is? OUr anti racism campaigns tell us it doesn't, why does it matter now? They are differentiating themselves. That is the point. Now if a group of solely white people decided to award a prize to the best black player there would rightly be outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 They are differentiating themselves. That is the point. Now if a group of solely white people decided to award a prize to the best black player there would rightly be outrage. Or if a group of white people decided to award a prize to the best white player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2011 They are differentiating themselves. That is the point. Now if a group of solely white people decided to award a prize to the best black player there would rightly be outrage. So you agree then that these awards are wrong? If it is correct how can Paul Elliott and Mark Bright support the black players award one week, then the following week say that we shouldn't discriminate and differentiate based on skin colour? Is that not hypocritical? And your further point is correct. But if white players got together and announced a whites only player award to celebreate white peoples contrbution to football, there would be outrage. I expect Paul Elliott and Mark Bright would be the ones shouting the loudest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 So you agree then that these awards are wrong? If it is correct how can Paul Elliott and Mark Bright support the black players award one week, then the following week say that we shouldn't discriminate and differentiate based on skin colour? Is that not hypocritical? And your further point is correct. But if white players got together and announced a whites only player award to celebreate white peoples contrbution to football, there would be outrage. I expect Paul Elliott and Mark Bright would be the ones shouting the loudest. In some ways it is unfortunate that minorities feel the need to do this sort of thing but I fully understand why they feel they need to do so. Again I go back to my point that those in minorities often feel that need a group of their own as they may not feel so aligned with a group that covers everyone which will generally cater to the majority. That to me is the key different. Anyway enough of arguing in circles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 In some ways it is unfortunate that minorities feel the need to do this sort of thing but I fully understand why they feel they need to do so. Again I go back to my point that those in minorities often feel that need a group of their own as they may not feel so aligned with a group that covers everyone which will generally cater to the majority. That to me is the key different. Anyway enough of arguing in circles... Are black players a minority in the premiership? Debateable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2011 In some ways it is unfortunate that minorities feel the need to do this sort of thing but I fully understand why they feel they need to do so. Again I go back to my point that those in minorities often feel that need a group of their own as they may not feel so aligned with a group that covers everyone which will generally cater to the majority. That to me is the key different. Anyway enough of arguing in circles... So do you agree or not that it is hypocritical for people like Paul Elliott on the one hand to support award ceremonies that focus on skin colour then to tell people that skin colour shouldn't be an issue when it suits their crusade? Do you agree or not that we should see people, not skin colours and awards celebrating achievements based on skin colour is focusing on skin colour not that they are people who are no better or worse than someone of another skin colour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Are black players a minority in the premiership? Debateable. When these awards started I suspect they very much were. Also the premiership may not be representative throughout football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Where are Verbal, BTF, Saintsandy666, Joneus and Super Mikey? They usually have plenty to say when it comes to race related issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 In some ways it is unfortunate that minorities feel the need to do this sort of thing but I fully understand why they feel they need to do so. Again I go back to my point that those in minorities often feel that need a group of their own as they may not feel so aligned with a group that covers everyone which will generally cater to the majority. That to me is the key different. Anyway enough of arguing in circles... So would it be OK for there to be a White Mans Club in Kenya (for e.g) in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Where are Verbal, BTF, Saintsandy666, Joneus and Super Mikey? They usually have plenty to say when it comes to race related issues. Pub quiz night ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 So would it be OK for there to be a White Mans Club in Kenya (for e.g) in your opinion? Thewre already are Dune as you well know. Any expats club is a temple of cricket, hunting and pictures of the Queen taken in 1954. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2011 When these awards started I suspect they very much were. Also the premiership may not be representative throughout football. I didnt' see too many league two players up their collecting their awards. And regardless of if there were a minority or not, the emphasis is on skin colour. When we are constantly and rightly told skin colour doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 I met my wife in a gay bar! I bet that was a hell of a shock for both of you, how long had you been married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 An Italian worker at a restaurant in Ghana under investigation for allegedly operating a "whites only" policy has told the BBC it was a misunderstanding. Marco Ranaldi said he made "a joke" about the racial profile of members of the Atlantic Lobsters and Dolphins. A Ghanaian woman started an online protest after visiting the restaurant a week ago and allegedly being told that it was "only for white people". Meanwhile, tourism authorities closed it on Tuesday as it was not licensed. Police are still investigating the allegations of racism. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15552093 So the white minority in Ghana aren't allowed a whites only restaurant and are being investigated for racism, yet in Britain it's acceptable to stop straigt men entering gay club, and it's acceptable for blacks to have their own federations and awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Thewre already are Dune as you well know. Any expats club is a temple of cricket, hunting and pictures of the Queen taken in 1954. Do they bar blacks from entry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Do they bar blacks from entry? My aunt lives out in Nairobi. The club there was like a scene from White Mischief fast forwarded 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 My aunt lives out in Nairobi. The club there was like a scene from White Mischief fast forwarded 50 years. But do they bar blacks from entry/membership if they so wished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 I bet that was a hell of a shock for both of you, how long had you been married? boom, boom, tsk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 An Italian worker at a restaurant in Ghana under investigation for allegedly operating a "whites only" policy has told the BBC it was a misunderstanding. Marco Ranaldi said he made "a joke" about the racial profile of members of the Atlantic Lobsters and Dolphins. A Ghanaian woman started an online protest after visiting the restaurant a week ago and allegedly being told that it was "only for white people". Meanwhile, tourism authorities closed it on Tuesday as it was not licensed. Police are still investigating the allegations of racism. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15552093 So the white minority in Ghana aren't allowed a whites only restaurant and are being investigated for racism, yet in Britain it's acceptable to stop straigt men entering gay club, and it's acceptable for blacks to have their own federations and awards.you lost the plot now how come your talking about ghana now and being barred from a gay club,maybe he did not fancy you:o hence your hatred of the liberal elite. by the way is their anyone you don,t hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 But do they bar blacks from entry/membership if they so wished? Ive no idea. Many of those old colonials are dying off now. Not sure what is happening to the clubs. Strange places though. I went to one in the hills above Kandy in Sri Lanka. Half timebered pseudo tudor pile. Tennis court outside, snooker room, crooquet lawn. The place was run by local Lankans - though they bowed and scraped to me even though I looked like a scruffy git in a t shirt but refused to let the lankan driver who was wearing a collar and tie in. I had to smuggle him a drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Forget what went on in Ghana and Kenya 59 years ago. It is correct in 2011 Britain to have an awards ceremony based soley on the colour of peoples skin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 boom, boom, tsk. ..or more accurately in this case, "pffffft.....rimshot" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 you lost the plot now how come your talking about ghana now and being barred from a gay club,maybe he did not fancy you:o hence your hatred of the liberal elite. by the way is their anyone you don,t hate. I'm demonstrating to you that it is unaceptable abroad for white minorities to bar others based on the colour of their skin, yet in Britain it is OK for blacks to bar whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Forget what went on in Ghana and Kenya 59 years ago. It is correct in 2011 Britain to have an awards ceremony based soley on the colour of peoples skin? No I dont think so. Awards or clubs based on race should be out. Awards or clubs based on a particular interest (which may be practically the same thing in some cases) should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 I'm demonstrating to you that it is unaceptable abroad for white minorities to bar others based on the colour of their skin, yet in Britain it is OK for blacks to bar whites. And what was the gay bit about or is it a secret Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2011 (edited) And what was the gay bit about or is it a secret Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk Stop making petty digs at Dune. Are you Condeming or supporting award ceremonies based purely on people's skin colour? Are you as someone, like myself, who sees people not skin colour prepared to call Paul Elliot and Mark Bright hypocrites for supporting awards based in skin colour yet at the same time preaching skin colour should not be an issue and we shouldn't discriminate or segregate based on skin colour? Edited 18 November, 2011 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Stop making petty digs at Dune. Are you Condeming or supporting award ceremonies based purely on people's skin colour? Oh is this a serious thread then ha ha Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 Oh noes I'm white and I'm so discriminated against. I'm going to start another thread on an internet forum moaning about how whites get such a bum deal. Oh noes help us whites, its political correctness gone maaaad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2011 Share Posted 18 November, 2011 So you agree then that these awards are wrong? If it is correct how can Paul Elliott and Mark Bright support the black players award one week, then the following week say that we shouldn't discriminate and differentiate based on skin colour? Is that not hypocritical? And your further point is correct. But if white players got together and announced a whites only player award to celebreate white peoples contrbution to football, there would be outrage. I expect Paul Elliott and Mark Bright would be the ones shouting the loudest. Insecure yes, but not hypocritical. Would be a different matter if messrs elliott et al. were calling for, say, the national team to positively discriminate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 You are quite boring Adriansfc but your points are well Made, albeit longwinded. It all goes back to the point though that we have be told and had it drummed into us for year and years not to see a colour but to see a person and I quite agree with that. Yet we have only WEEKS later the same people praising the achievement of ppeople due to their colour I find that highly hypocritical. I an just amazed Verbal, as the moderator of equality has not leapt to back me up. It's slightly strange considering he is so quick to appear when a race related issue is raised on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 Oh is this a serious thread then ha ha Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk Absolutely this forum is a serious business. Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 It's funny isn't it. If This was a discussion about White people segregating themselves And being self inclusive the usual suspects would be all over this thread wanting public hangings and executions, verbal Would be taking the skin off his tubby little fingers angrily Thumping his keyboard at the subconscious racism taking place. yet none of them are to be anywhere to be seen. I find it incredible that anyone can support these awards, given the fact we are told not to base anything on the colour of people's skin. Yet not one of our racial guardians is prepared to condemn these awards and speak out against them. It's strange to say the least. BTF and Verbal have both piped up on this thread but neither appear to be able to form An opinion on the isue in question, which is odd for two posters who usually are quick to Condemn when it suits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 (edited) It's funny isn't it. If This was a discussion about White people segregating themselves And being self inclusive the usual suspects would be all over this thread wanting public hangings and executions, verbal Would be taking the skin off his tubby little fingers angrily Thumping his keyboard at the subconscious racism taking place. yet none of them are to be anywhere to be seen. I find it incredible that anyone can support these awards, given the fact we are told not to base anything on the colour of people's skin. Yet not one of our racial guardians is prepared to condemn these awards and speak out against them. It's strange to say the least. BTF and Verbal have both piped up on this thread but neither appear to be able to form An opinion on the isue in question, which is odd for two posters who usually are quick to Condemn when it suits. All minority groups have celebrations/reminders of how far they have come -and lets not forget its only in recent times that black players broke into the game against a number of long-standing stereotypes/obstacles. Surely you can understand why such a thing wouldn't apply to white players. Over time, you would expect the importance of these celebrations to fade -its hard to think of many activities as genuinely meritocratic as football. It wouldn't be surprising if most black footballers themselves found them embarrassing and patronising. Now you've made it, you want to be seen as good player. Full stop. IMO that these awards persist says more about the insecurity of the black community and lack of role models in other walks of life than some fundamental act of hypocrisy by a few old-pros or some die-hard urge to be exclusive. Storm in a tea-cup stuff really. Edited 19 November, 2011 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 What would King Soloman have said about all this stuff I wonder? Probably said put all colours on a wheel, spin that wheel and whatever colour was picked was the winner.Then the people of that colour could murder every other humans not the same colour as the "winner". Result being only one colour left so no-one can be accused of being racist due to skin colour. Simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 You can't tell us about the Black Footballer awards and then not tell us who won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 All very interesting (as ever) FC. So would it be acceptable to have White Players Awards? And if not why is it acceptable to have Black Players Awards? If you has kept this thread as a serious queston rather than the obvious attempt to hide your prejudices behind 'paint charts' - you would have gotten the obvious answer - NO it would NOT be acceptable, as neither is IMHO a Black player awards. As we can see by the reaction, it is unhelpful in erradicating the prejudices of the ignorant. But as ever you over simplify - as with any issue of 'positive discrimination' - on the surface it is WRONG - as most would acknowledge, but when placed in different context it is easy to see how it could be justified: in this case namely given the social difficulties that many minorities find themselves in (usually with the origins in discrimination), minorities have looked for role models and appraoches that may help generate aspirations in teh youth. Same as you and others fail to see he rationale for positive discrimination in the work place - again wrong in an ideal society, but on balance as you well know if there was NO discrimination any large workforce should on average reflect the make up and cultural and ethnic diversity of the local population. The fact that many minorities have been discrimated against for years and thus many work forces DO NOT reflect this, is why it exists. You know that really, but seem determined to perpetuate your nationalistic extreme bull**** for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 With all the recent discussion about racism in football I wondered what peoples view on these recently held awards. The whole point of racist campaigns is that everyone is the same regardless of colour. A few years back there was am anti racism advert on sky featuring Cantona, Henry and a couple of other players asking if people saw a frenchman, a Blackman or a footballer. I thought it was one of the best anti-racism campaigns ever and really highlighted the point of seeing everyone the same. So do the black player awards help? Whilst the intentions are correct all it's doing is drawing attention to the colour of skin of the player and almost making it an issue in itself. If we are suppose to see footballers and people not races and nationalities then why are these awards taking place? A great question, but one that doesn't have simple yes/no answer. Anyone looking for some simple answers to an apparently simple contradiction is a little naive. It's not, if you'll allow me, black and white. For me it's about a discrimination. Does one section of society benefit unduly over, or at the expense of, another section of society? As a white male in the UK, do I feel that my colour is discriminated against due to the existence of a black-only football award? No I don't. The fact is that 'white' footballers are more than adequately represented through other player awards. Whilst they may not be represented in any award that is exclusively for black players, there are ample other awards, and awards of arguably greater stature, that they are represented in. There is no real loss to a 'white' player by not being allowed to enter. The reason I think it's totally legitimate to ask this question, is that as we have (hopefully) become more integrated as a society, such black-only organisations do tend to look out of place and ironically can be seen to reinforce the problem that they first set out to highlight. But again, I'm mindful of my own prejudiced views. I don't look at the world through the eyes of a minority - well at least not one based on the colour of my skin. Perhaps my view that as a society we are becoming better integrated is not shared by black people. So the question was "do the black player awards help?". I'll turn that around and answer the question "Are black player awards unhelpful?". To me, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 You can't tell us about the Black Footballer awards and then not tell us who won? I have no idea I didn't support them. I just saw a 10 minute slot on football focus a couple of weeks or so about it and how fantastic it is and we should all celebrate the the contribution black players are making to the game. Yet this week many of the same people making these grand declarations are saying how disgraceful it is to judge someone on their colour and everyone is equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCholulaKid Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 It's funny isn't it. If This was a discussion about White people segregating themselves And being self inclusive the usual suspects would be all over this thread wanting public hangings and executions, verbal Would be taking the skin off his tubby little fingers angrily Thumping his keyboard at the subconscious racism taking place. yet none of them are to be anywhere to be seen. I find it incredible that anyone can support these awards, given the fact we are told not to base anything on the colour of people's skin. Yet not one of our racial guardians is prepared to condemn these awards and speak out against them. It's strange to say the least. BTF and Verbal have both piped up on this thread but neither appear to be able to form An opinion on the isue in question, which is odd for two posters who usually are quick to Condemn when it suits. ****ing hell - maybe they had better things to do on a Friday night. Your attempts at point scoring are almost as pathetic and desperate as your insecurities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 Good post saint bletch but IMO they are unhelpful. I've mentioned the very powerful Sky advert a couple of times now, what do you see a skin colour, a nationality or a footballer? This totally contradicts this and the anti racism ethos that says everyone is the same regardless of skin colour. Its saying "look at him, he's black, look what he's achieved" this is wrong. What's wrong with "he's a footballer, look what he's achieved" skin colour matters when it suits and shouldnt matter when it doesn't it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 ****ing hell - maybe they had better things to do on a Friday night. Your attempts at point scoring are almost as pathetic and desperate as your insecurities. Why is it pathetic and desperate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 Thanks for the debate Turkish. I was wondering whether any 'black' people posted on this forum and whether they'd want to come 'out' as black? I'm not black, Turkish may be Turkish and thus may have experienced racism based on the way he looks. But is everyone on here actually working/middle class white dudes??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 I'll take that! I get bored by the end too but often it's possible to let the fingers finish the point off while the brain watches a film. I'm the same with masturbation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 The 'liberal state' don't support positive discrimination. Idiots who don't understand the mistake do. Dune is just editing the world to back up his own preconceptions. Positive discrimination may not be as hurtful/angry etc., but it's just as ignorant as incorrect. If Dune bothered to actually find out what Liberalism was, he might actually like it! In fact, I say he is a liberal in denial. Everyone(well, most in this country) is a liberal of one kind or another these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 If Dune bothered to actually find out what Liberalism was, he might actually like it! In fact, I say he is a liberal in denial. Everyone(well, most in this country) is a liberal of one kind or another these days. Actually I think Mr Dune is more likely to be a member of these:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 I long for the day when the colour of a person's skin is no more important than the colour of their hair or the colour of their eyes. BBC radio are just as bad at discrimination. Even if a black person is on the radio speaking with an English accent they always have to bring up the subject of the person's skin, something that the listener can't see and doesn't need to know about. Off course black footballers', black musicians', black whatevers' awards are a bad idea, they differentiate and they promote discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 If you has kept this thread as a serious queston rather than the obvious attempt to hide your prejudices behind 'paint charts' - you would have gotten the obvious answer - NO it would NOT be acceptable, as neither is IMHO a Black player awards. As we can see by the reaction, it is unhelpful in erradicating the prejudices of the ignorant. But as ever you over simplify - as with any issue of 'positive discrimination' - on the surface it is WRONG - as most would acknowledge, but when placed in different context it is easy to see how it could be justified: in this case namely given the social difficulties that many minorities find themselves in (usually with the origins in discrimination), minorities have looked for role models and appraoches that may help generate aspirations in teh youth. Same as you and others fail to see he rationale for positive discrimination in the work place - again wrong in an ideal society, but on balance as you well know if there was NO discrimination any large workforce should on average reflect the make up and cultural and ethnic diversity of the local population. The fact that many minorities have been discrimated against for years and thus many work forces DO NOT reflect this, is why it exists. You know that really, but seem determined to perpetuate your nationalistic extreme bull**** for some reason. Would you be in favour of positive discrimination to give young white males jobs over Poles seeing how they are taking all our jobs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 If Dune bothered to actually find out what Liberalism was, he might actually like it! In fact, I say he is a liberal in denial. Everyone(well, most in this country) is a liberal of one kind or another these days. These days... You talk like you have experience. Are you suggesting things were different when you were 14? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 19 November, 2011 Share Posted 19 November, 2011 These days... You talk like you have experience. Are you suggesting things were different when you were 14? Nope, not at all. It was of course exactly the same then and now. Liberalism won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 19 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2011 Nope, not at all. It was of course exactly the same then and now. Liberalism won. What are your views on the black player awards saintandy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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