Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 I look forward to some right-wing come back on this but... Obviously, they are both very worthy causes, but a thought occured to me today that sooner or later the poppy appeal will be consumed by the seemingly more 'popular' help for heroes campaign. Do people think that the two can co-exist? My reasons behind thinking this is that I always have and always will associate the poppy with the rememberance of those who died during the two World Wars, yet it seems from my point of view that if you were to ask someone 'What charity supports soldiers after their service?' the majority would say 'Help for Heroes' rather than 'The Royal British Legion'. Can people see where I'm coming from? The image of the poppy seems to me to be ingrained in the national psyche as part of the remeberance of naive civilian volunteers/pals battalions/trenches etc, the fight to liberate Europe from Nazism and to some extent the Falklands conflict. With no longer any WW1 vets left, minimal numbers of WW2 vets left and now the Falklands vets getting old, is their much hope left for the Poppy Appeal? Or do people think it will always continue as a sign of 'unquestioning' sacrifice for our country? (By 'unquestioning' I mean a conscripted army who didn't know any better as opposed to a professional army that understands the risks etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Both can and will co - exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Both can and will co - exist. I wish I shared your confidence. The numbers of people today who weren't wearing a poppy shocked me and when questioned they just went "Oh yeah, should have bought one really"...and I was on the exam board's history moderating course today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 I wish I shared your confidence. The numbers of people today who weren't wearing a poppy shocked me and when questioned they just went "Oh yeah, should have bought one really"...and I was on the exam board's history moderating course today! I heard on the news that a record number of poppies had been sold this year. Both can co exsist. The fact that the poppy is to essentially mark one specific day for rememberance and H4H is to help soldiers wounded in current conflicts all year round should ensure that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 For me wearing a poppy is about remembering the sacrifice made by that particular generation, especially (for me) my grandfathers & step grandfather, thankfully, all of which came back. The people that fought in WW2 had no choice, it was very much a case of do-or-die, the country was faced with invasion & the end of a way of life & possibly their liberty, they were ordinary blokes who never wanted to be heroes, bakers, builders, bank clerks etc etc. For that, I salute & admire that generation. The recent wars we have got dragged into have been political, fought at the whim of career politicians who have no idea of the realities of war, whilst I do not wish to denigrate in any way the job our service men & women do, armed with the knowledge of what the consequences may be, they made a career choice. I'm not sure where I'm really going with this but, as I see it, HFH is a charity for the modern soldier & for the families of the bereaved. So in essence, the Poppy Appeal is for the WW2 vets, is something we should be proud of, and is something I have made sure my children have respect for & understand. HFH is a charity which people should donate too when they feel it is appropriate, rather like Oxfam, or cancer charities etc. I really hope this doesn't sound like I'm belittling what the current members of armed forces do, because that's not what I have meant in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 I wish I shared your confidence. The numbers of people today who weren't wearing a poppy shocked me and when questioned they just went "Oh yeah, should have bought one really"...and I was on the exam board's history moderating course today! That speaks volumes about the calibre of your colleagues. They are clearly not fit to teach. I wear a poppy with pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 What is noticeable is how many more places are now observing a 2minutes silence at 11.00 on 11/11. To me the poppy is WW1 and anybody who has explored the Somme and the old front lines through northern France and western Belgium will understand what I mean by that. The way that a few blood red flowers stand out against the deep green of the Flanders grass and strike a breathtaking contrast to the grey skies always brings tears to my eyes. No matter how many times I go, and I'll be exploring another part of Flanders in Feb', it always gets me. Remembrance Sunday is a day when I think of all those who have served and fallen. On our local memorial is the name of my friends son, KIA in Iraq aged 19. Last year was the 1st time I've worn my own campaign medals to the cenotaph. Felt quite odd, something old men do, but my wife said I ought to. Felt quite moved when total strangers shook my hand and said thanks and it was noticeable, to me, how many more people my age were wearing their medals, berets and colours. The RBL and H4H, both very dear to my heart and two sides of the same coin and both have their place and I fundraise for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 That speaks volumes about the calibre of your colleagues. They are clearly not fit to teach. I wear a poppy with pride. What because someone forgot to wear a poppy they're not fit to teach? you're such a cretin. To be honest H4H shouldn't need to exist. The Government should be providing good levels of care to wounded soldiers not relying on charities to do it for them. It's embarrassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surman4no7shirt Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 What because someone forgot to wear a poppy they're not fit to teach? you're such a cretin. To be honest, by the same token, "forgetting" to wear a poppy is more cretinous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 That speaks volumes about the calibre of your colleagues. They are clearly not fit to teach. I wear a poppy with pride. I have worn a poppy every year of my life and will continue to do so, but the country I have served and gone to war for and the country of those who gave there life for is one where wearing the poppy is a choice not a judgement. Your response demonstrates the attitude and desires of those that were defeated in 2 Global conflicts and those who wish to impose ultra religious codes on us today. Why I am surprised, you have never recognised the irony of your narrow-minded posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 In my opinion H4H only exists because the last 2 Governments decided to break the military covenant. Bastards. If the sort of help that is needed by the veterans of todays and more recent conflicts is better served by H4H, and the difference of appeal style from the Poppy Appeal more closely resonates with modern society's values, then I have no concern about the Poppy Appeal ending up taking a back seat in terms of primary veterans aid appeal, as the number of survivors from both world wars sadly drops to zero. The poppy will never disappear as a symbol demonstrating rememberance and untiy with our Armed Forces though, of that I am sure. This year I have been wearing a Poppy and a H4H wrist band. I havent yet got around to getting my Tigers wristband. The Austrians in my office think I'm nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 (edited) Removed as it offended Thorpe . Edited 13 November, 2011 by Viking Warrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Alpine you are nuts but I like your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 To be honest, by the same token, "forgetting" to wear a poppy is more cretinous. And they were either history teachers or to do with teaching history. It defies belief. And what a brilliant example they are setting. They are not fit to teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Thorpe for your info the h4h centres that have been set up will be run by the RBL. If you take a look at their website you will find this out . Secondly do some research after ww2 there was Palestine Korea Cyprus Malaya NI Oman gulf war 1 I could name other military operations where have sustained casualties . The Poppy appeal will not disappear in the years to come we will be remembering those killed on op TELIC and Op HERRICK. But hey don't let that cloud your thinking. Each of the services also have their respective charities . I attended the armistice day parade . Wearing my medals and head dress thinking of my great grandad grandad and dad who served in various wars . I certainly will not forget How dare you suggest with your pathetic "cloud your thinking" comment that I don't think the poppy appeal and/or H4H is important you total scumbag. You have quite clearly totally misread the 'spirit' in which my original post was written. I accept your opening sentence, and that is great news, but why the need to then start seemingly 'having a pop' is beyond me? I know there were other conflicts (please remember my qualifications) my grandad fought at Suez and has given me his campaign medal, but as I said originally, you ask any member of the public what the poppy represents they will mention the two world wars and possibly the Falklands. As the vets of those wars sadly fade away, I was merely posing the question as to whether the two could possibly co-exist given the quite excellent 'publicity' given to H4H and the notable lack of advertising on the BBC for their coverage of the Royal Albert Hall tomorrow and Rememberance Sunday. Not even dune as mad me this mad before (and that is saying something)! I would suggest reading my post again, looking at others comments, and then apologising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Thorpe-le-spaz in throwing a tantrum shocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Just because someone doesn't wear a poppy, it doesn't mean they are a bad person. I'm fed up of this poppy fascism, Hitler lost the war after all. And for what it is worth, I wore my poppy today and I will wear it again on the 13th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 Oh, and I think both can co-exist. But H4H is must more snazzy, and large scale looking. Whereas, the Royal British Legion is more understated and just gets on with it, so has a lower profile, as it lets the image of the poppy do the talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 It doesn't have a lower profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 It doesn't have a lower profile. The Poppy doesn't, that's for sure. But the Royal British Legion does. Go out into the street and ask people what they have heard of... Poppy, H4H and the Royal British Legion. I can assure you, the Poppy would come top, H4H and RBL 3rd. Maybe not with the oldies(your age range), but while most know of the Poppy, some, especially younguns will be unaware the RBL is behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 11 November, 2011 Share Posted 11 November, 2011 The Poppy doesn't, that's for sure. But the Royal British Legion does. Go out into the street and ask people what they have heard of... Poppy, H4H and the Royal British Legion. I can assure you, the Poppy would come top, H4H and RBL 3rd. Maybe not with the oldies(your age range), but while most know of the Poppy, some, especially younguns will be unaware the RBL is behind it. You should have been clearer in the first place and said it was just kids (like you) that hadn't heard of the British Legion. I disagree with you however, and think it's probably just you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 11 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 11 November, 2011 (edited) Not throwing a 'tantrum': Rightly disgusted at Viking's disgusting post that he should apologise for. Thank you to those of you who have replied sensibly given the context of the thread. Edited 12 November, 2011 by Thorpe-le-Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 To be honest, by the same token, "forgetting" to wear a poppy is more cretinous. And how does forgetting to wear a poppy make one unfit to teach? and why is forgetting cretinous in the first place? surely its up to each individual to which charities they donate. Does the British Legion automatically take precendence over say Banardos, Children in Need or Cancer Research. I get a poppy every year but this moralising about people not wearing one is pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 You should have been clearer in the first place and said it was just kids (like you) that hadn't heard of the British Legion. I disagree with you however, and think it's probably just you. Well, that's a stupid point. I have heard of the Royal British Legion and have even been to the place where all the Poppies are made and met the people who work hard at making them all year round. Even made some myself while I was there! But anyways, stupid response saying what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 been to the place where all the Poppies are made. Is there anything you haven't done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 (edited) Is there anything you haven't done? Nope, nothing. You often mock me for being young having no experience, but this is one area where I definitely have at least a little experience in how it all works. Your arguments are weak. Either way, I'd rather not argue like this on this thread. Edited 12 November, 2011 by Saintandy666 typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 It doesn't have a lower profile. I would suggest it does. H4H is about as high profile as it gets and is 365 charity, the RBL and the Poppy Appeal is a November charity in the eyes of the public. All of the fundraising I see being done for ex-HMF is for H4H. It's as if the populace equates H4H with "Now" and the Poppy Appeal with "Then". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 And they were either history teachers or to do with teaching history. It defies belief. And what a brilliant example they are setting. They are not fit to teach. It would depend on whether they forgot to buy one or forgot to swap it from one suit lapel to another. Regardless, it's about freedom of choice, the very thing so many fought and died for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 (edited) Removed out of politeness Edited 12 November, 2011 by Viking Warrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumuah Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 RBL if anything are the more worthy cause, as they look after all ex servicemen, where H4H is 99% army only. H4H are loaded, and struggle to spend all their money. RBL struggle to keep up with the demands on their services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 Thorpe I'm not a scumbag as you politely put it . Your post came across as somewhat controversial to me and as I offended you i apologise to you . Coming from a long military background i get annoyed when some folk appear to have a go about remembrance week. There was a poster on another thread who intimated that those who now join up were not heroes compared to those who laid down their lives were not heroes. I stand by what I posted as that was my view and I will not retract it. But I will apologise to you as you have your views which I respect but I will not be bullied into changing my view point . But i will not be bullied into changing my thoughts about this week even if you still think I'm a scumbag. There was nothing controversial in the OP, simply a question whether one charity would ultimately take the place on another or is there still a place for both. In no way does the OP degenerate the sacrifice made by any generation of HMF or the place that remembrance week has in the national psyche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 RBL if anything are the more worthy cause, as they look after all ex servicemen, where H4H is 99% army only. H4H are loaded, and struggle to spend all their money. RBL struggle to keep up with the demands on their services This is why I support RBL in preference to H4H. Because of the media the public think that it is only the army who are deployed in Afghanistan, for the past year the RN has provided 40% of the personnel this on top of other operational commitments,including Libya and anti piracy. The RN is approximately 15% of the total armed forces numbers but provides on average over 35% of deployed personnel. Both RBL and H4H are worthy causes and deserve the publics support for the work they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 For me wearing a poppy is about remembering the sacrifice made by that particular generation, especially (for me) my grandfathers & step grandfather, thankfully, all of which came back. The people that fought in WW2 had no choice, it was very much a case of do-or-die, the country was faced with invasion & the end of a way of life & possibly their liberty, they were ordinary blokes who never wanted to be heroes, bakers, builders, bank clerks etc etc. For that, I salute & admire that generation. The recent wars we have got dragged into have been political, fought at the whim of career politicians who have no idea of the realities of war, whilst I do not wish to denigrate in any way the job our service men & women do, armed with the knowledge of what the consequences may be, they made a career choice. I'm not sure where I'm really going with this but, as I see it, HFH is a charity for the modern soldier & for the families of the bereaved. So in essence, the Poppy Appeal is for the WW2 vets, is something we should be proud of, and is something I have made sure my children have respect for & understand. HFH is a charity which people should donate too when they feel it is appropriate, rather like Oxfam, or cancer charities etc. I really hope this doesn't sound like I'm belittling what the current members of armed forces do, because that's not what I have meant in anyway. This reply resonates with me, in that I see a distinction between the two "organisations". I view the Act of Rememberance as a tribute to those who gave their lives so that we may well enjoy our future. A tribute made more poignant that it was undertaken en masse by the ordinary man in the street. Of course the money raised goes towards supporting ex service personnel, but for me the main symbol is one of remembering those who are no longer with us. Whereas I view HFH as a charity doing great things for those who servicemen who are still with us today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 (edited) The RBL have an image problem in that many people think it is primarily about the past - tired bars and memorial services - when in fact its very much about providing practical help now. HFH has a catchier name, the kind of thing the media like to hang on to. Whether it will still be around in 90 years is open to question. Edited 12 November, 2011 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 Obviously, they are both very worthy causes, but a thought occured to me today that sooner or later the poppy appeal will be consumed by the seemingly more 'popular' help for heroes campaign. Do people think that the two can co-exist? Thorpe le saint wrote Obviously, they are both very worthy causes, but a thought occured to me today that sooner or later the poppy appeal will be consumed by the seemingly more 'popular' help for heroes campaign. Do people think that the two can co-exist? Yes there are lots of service charities RAF Benevolent Fund , RN Benevolent fund Army benevolent fund Erskine Homes, The Haig Fund (more properly the Earl Haig Fund) is a charity set up in 1921 by Field Marshal Douglas Haig, 1st Earl Haig to assist ex-servicemen. Today, the Haig Fund continues to support veterans from all conflicts and other military actions involving British Armed Forces up to today. Its members sell remembrance poppies in the weeks before Remembrance Day/Armistice Day. There was the Normandy Vets association as well as individaul Regiments and Corps associations and H4H "It’s about the 'blokes', our men and women of the Armed Forces. Bryan Parry set this up for the following reasons "It’s about Derek, a rugby player who has lost both his legs, it’s about Carl whose jaw is wired up so he has been drinking through a straw. It’s about Richard who was handed a mobile phone as he lay on the stretcher so he could say goodbye to his wife. It’s about Ben, it’s about Steven and Andy and Mark, it’s about them all. They are just blokes but they are our blokes; they are our heroes. We want to help our heroes." Also Royal Hospital Chelsea - Lets not forget then I do not have a problem with any of these charities but I do have a concern re the RBL. There are lots of British Legions up and down the country and rightly so , But some are struggling due to lack of income, some have become working men clubs in order to generate income and to survive. Certainly that is the case in many legions troughout scotland but at least they are still generating funds to help thiose in need. Some have had to close because they are no longer economically vialble. The other issue I have is because if it was not for the likes of H4H the forces would not have personal recovery centres around the country , Yes we have the Defence Medical Facility at Selly Oak but successive governemts have closed all military hospitals over the years. Which were and in my honest opinion a valuable asset to all military personnal. I digress a little but if it wasnt for H4H and the like Im sure the governments of the day would not have dipped into coffers to provide centres for injured servicemen AgainThorpe I apologise to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 12 November, 2011 Share Posted 12 November, 2011 Buctoom Spot on with your comment "tired bars and memorial services" I totally agree. There are those in RBL Kirkwall who have forgotten the motto service not self and have it back to front. self not service. I was on the commitee here for a while and the concept of being a place for ex service has sadly faded RBL needs to reinvent itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 13 November, 2011 Share Posted 13 November, 2011 In Flanders the Somme and Dardanelles boys served died and survived only just. Their families mourned fit their dead And now in far off places We send young men and women to fight In poppy fields in hotter trenches Yet still seeking to serve and protect Remembrance must be more than past It must be here, now and again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amesbury Saint Posted 14 November, 2011 Share Posted 14 November, 2011 The charity I work for runs a number of homes for ex Service personnel who find themselves homeless. The RBL has been superb at providing financial support and support from their casewokers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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