Is The Current Squad the Best Ever?

[Ian the Red]

I remember watching this side.

 

http://www.statto.com/football/teams/southampton/1983-1984

 

Take a look.

Liverpool 2-0 (When they were easily the best side in Europe).

United? 3-0 (Manchester who?)

Spurs? 5-0.

Arsenal - pah...

 

Short memories some fans.

 

Agree totally; this was a very, very goood team and brings back many fond memories.

[Wes Tender]

Even the team which came 8th in 2003/4 would beat this lot, never mind the ones who actually won something or got to Cup Finals. As we may discover next season if we don't improve the squad.

 

Actually, was the '92 ZDS Final side better than this one ?

 

Very good Championship side though they may be.

 

Would they? I've just been reminding myself who we had then and certainly there are some illustrious names. But they were mixed in with some not so illustrious names. And look at how many names there were who played that season; the list below gives some idea.

 

Jones, Niemi, Lundekvam, Oakley, Tessem, Dodd, F Hall, Kenton, Crainey, M Svennson, Higginbotham, Fernandes, Folly, Telfer, A Svennsson, Delap, Baird, Prutton, Ormerod, Phillips, Beattie, Griffit, Pahars, Mc Cann, Le Saux, Marsden, Delgado and a few other bit-part players.

 

OK, they had some notable victories that season, but the number of players consistently in that team was not as consistent as those we are playing now and it could be that the team spirit and the understanding forged between the current team could give them the edge. Several of that list didn't play much because they were injury prone like Delgado, Pahars & Killer, or they were getting on a bit like Dodd, Marsden and Le Saux, or just not very good like Griffit, Folly, McCann, Crainey, Tessem, Kenton, Delap (at the time

 

So it rather depends which team from 2003 turned out if there was a hypothetical match against our best current team. I believe that the current team would beat some of those teams that we put out that season.

[mynameisthehulk]

1990-1991

 

Flowers

Dodd Osman Ruddock Adams

Wallace Case Horne Le Tissier

Shearer Rideout

[Fan The Flames]

As enjoyable as this team is, it isn't our best. However this is the first time we seem to be using a squad to its fullest; prior to NA the squad existed as back up for the first team, now NA uses different players for different games and different periods of the game. Of course there are peripheral players in the squad but there must be a core of 16-18 players that get used. So it that terms it is the best squad ever but we are witnessing a change in football.

[spyinthesky]

Another supporter of long standing

 

Very difficult to compare different teams

 

All I can say it is an awfully long time since I have enjoyed watching Saints play in such a fluent style and with the expectation of a decent result

[The9]

From memory and at the risk of getting MLG'd, I make the comparative first XIs:

 

Niemi > Davies

Bridge > Dickson

Svensson > Hoiveld

Lundekvam > Fonte

Telfer = Richardson

Marsden

Oakley = Schneiderlin

Delap

Fernades = Chaplow

Beattie = Lambert

Ormerod

 

2003-4 wins 4:3. Would be a good game though!

 

I'd argue Beattie >>> Lambert, and Oakley > Schneiderlin. Whatever the case, there aren't many you can argue the other way. Also, why is Dickson in your current first team? Fox or Harding, sure. Either way Bridge wins so I guess it doesn't matter.

[Atlanta Saint]

I remember back in the mid 80's when I think we had 4 or 5 players play in a game for England. Shilton, Wright, Steve Williams!! one of the Wallace's and possibly Le Tiss.

[The9]

Two questions...

 

Who is Davies?

Why is Ryan Dickson the current team's left back?

 

Plus Saints didn't come 8th in 2003/04, that was in 2002/03.

 

Fair point, I started with "2003" and guessed which way to go, wrongly.

[The9]

Would they? I've just been reminding myself who we had then and certainly there are some illustrious names. But they were mixed in with some not so illustrious names. And look at how many names there were who played that season; the list below gives some idea.

 

Jones, Niemi, Lundekvam, Oakley, Tessem, Dodd, F Hall, Kenton, Crainey, M Svennson, Higginbotham, Fernandes, Folly, Telfer, A Svennsson, Delap, Baird, Prutton, Ormerod, Phillips, Beattie, Griffit, Pahars, Mc Cann, Le Saux, Marsden, Delgado and a few other bit-part players.

 

OK, they had some notable victories that season, but the number of players consistently in that team was not as consistent as those we are playing now and it could be that the team spirit and the understanding forged between the current team could give them the edge. Several of that list didn't play much because they were injury prone like Delgado, Pahars & Killer, or they were getting on a bit like Dodd, Marsden and Le Saux, or just not very good like Griffit, Folly, McCann, Crainey, Tessem, Kenton, Delap (at the time

 

So it rather depends which team from 2003 turned out if there was a hypothetical match against our best current team. I believe that the current team would beat some of those teams that we put out that season.

 

This was a discussion about regular players in 2003/4 (which it turns out is actually about 2002/3 anyway). And yes, some of our current first teamers are better then some of the reserves from then, but that's not really the point.

 

First game of 2002/3

P Jones, J Dodd, C Lundekvam, P Williams, W Bridge, R Delap, C Marsden, A Svensson, F Fernandes (P Telfer, 89), J Beattie, M Pahars (J Tessem, 59) Subs not used: B Ormerod, N Moss, M Svensson

 

First game of 2003/4

P Jones, J Dodd, M Svensson, C Lundekvam (D Higginbotham, 13), G Le Saux, M Oakley, R Delap, A Svensson (K Phillips, 45), N McCann , J Beattie, P Telfer (F Fernandes, 67) Subs not used: D Prutton, A Blayney

 

Definitely going with 2002/3 there, though Killer should have started...

Edited 9 November, 2011 by The9

[The9]

I don't doubt that our current squad could have held their own in the First Division of 1984.

I really really doubt whether the team of 1984 (because it was a team and not a squad) would be of any great significance in

today's premier league.Football has moved forward since 1984 and I really doubt whether a lot of the old "greats" would be much better than mediocre players today.

 

Given the amount of long ball football and our relative inease at dealing with direct stuff recently, I could see the current lot losing to Watford and Wimbledon circa 1984... the main difference would be whether Hansen et al could handle the change to the backpass law. No more one-twos with Brucie every time a forward came near them to ease out a 1-0 win.

[farawaysaint]

All those arguing how much football has moved on, true but imagine the greats with proper training. That pele bloke was alright for a golden oldie

[The9]

One of the things noteworthy from looking at the 2002/3 squad is that we didn't have a great deal of quality beyond the first XI and covering strikers (Davies and Ormerod/Pahars supporting Beattie) - there's been a significant shift to a squad-based game in the top tier since then. Paul Williams was ok cover for Killer and Claus, but beyond that would we be playing Tessem there, and is it fair to say nowadays we'd need more depth there in the Prem ?

[david in sweden]

I don't doubt that our current squad could have held their own in the First Division of 1984.

 

I really really doubt whether the team of 1984 (because it was a team and not a squad) would be of any great significance in today's premier league.

 

Football has moved forward since 1984 and I really doubt whether a lot of the old "greats" would be much better than mediocre players today.

 

1-RIGHT ! the current squad wouldn't stand a chance in the 1984 league. There were some great players / teams around at that time.

 

2- It's impossible to compare one generation with another. Todays footballers are certainly fitter and better trained than those 80's players, but there was an enormous amount of skill then.. that you don't see today - even in some current Prem.sides.

 

3- yes football has advanced a lot, but see pt. 2 - there were some skilful players around and I think some of them would hold their own - even today.

[Saint Without a Halo]

A number of teams come to mind that must be in with a shout

 

 

1) The promoted 60's team in 67 with Ron Davies top scorer in the top division (finishing ahead of George Best ) with 30 something goals including all 4 in a thrilling 4-1 win at old Trafford That was a great attacking team with some major defensive flaws and great flair with Chivers Paine and John Sydenham

 

2)The 76 cup winning team with Channon Osgood Macalliog and Holmes

 

3) The late 70's promotion and Division 1 team of Williams Ball Boyer and Macdougall team scored a few in their time

 

4) The Shilton Mark Wright Keegan Channon Ball Williams Armstrong team of the early 80'swas the most skillful and full of internationals

 

5) The last McMenemy team taken over by Chris Nicholl was the most rewarding in terms of blooding youth players with the likes of the Wallace brothers and a young Shearer and LeTissier

 

6) The Hoddle team and the 2003 Strachan team were probably the most consistent with the best balance of defensive and attacking skills

Edited 9 November, 2011 by Saint Without a Halo

[Stud mark of doom]

The current squad is definitely the best for ages. I think it might be a close call even with, say, the 83/84 team.

 

If you could somehow play the two actual teams (with the current team applying their current training etc) and the 83/84 team doing likewise I think it would probably come down to whether the ref was from 11/12 or 83/84. We certainly can't have said that for many years.

[TheCholulaKid]

1990-1991

 

Flowers

Dodd Osman Ruddock Adams

Wallace Case Horne Le Tissier

Shearer Rideout

 

This was the last Saints team that played decent football. Aesthetically I think we're on a par with, if not better than, that team.

 

Should also draw attention to Dune's use of the word 'spastification' in this thread - what an odious individual.

[Ohio Saint]

What David in Sweden said. With knobs on.

[DanW]

What David in Sweden said. With knobs on.

 

Same here. I agree with David.

[Turkish]

The current squad is definitely the best for ages. I think it might be a close call even with, say, the 83/84 team.

 

If you could somehow play the two actual teams (with the current team applying their current training etc) and the 83/84 team doing likewise I think it would probably come down to whether the ref was from 11/12 or 83/84. We certainly can't have said that for many years.

 

Oh please, do us a favour. The 1984 team contained the best goalkeeper in the world, the best young striker in England, a former England captain, an England international centre half, the best left back never to play for England and finished second to the Liverpool side which was easily the best team in Europe and one of the best sides England has ever produced. To say that the team that has just come out of the 3rd tier of English football and is top of the championship after 15 games is even close to that is just plain mental.

Edited 9 November, 2011 by Turkish

[um pahars]

Oh please, do us a favour. The 1984 team contained the best goalkeeper in the world, the best young striker in England, a former England captain, an England international centre half, the best left back never to play for England and finished second to the Liverpool side which was easily the best team in Europe and one of the best sides England has ever produced. To say that the team that has just come out of the 3rd tier of English football and is top of the championship after 15 games is even close to that is just plain mental.

 

You also missed out two English internationals in midfield (Williams & Armstrong), a rising star & England international on the wing (Wallace) as well as a waining star and England international (Worthington).

 

I make that 7 full England internationals, 1 England U23 with 500+ appearances (majority in top flight), 1 England U21 (& PFA Young Player of the Year) & Mark Dennis & Kenny Armstrong.

 

I rate this current team, I admire their tenacity and team spirit, some of the football has been sublime, there have been goals aplenty, but they're not in the same league (literally and metaphorically).

[The Kraken]

The current squad is definitely the best for ages. I think it might be a close call even with, say, the 83/84 team.

 

If you could somehow play the two actual teams (with the current team applying their current training etc) and the 83/84 team doing likewise I think it would probably come down to whether the ref was from 11/12 or 83/84. We certainly can't have said that for many years.

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

Would only come down to the era of the ref; that's a good one Stud.

[Tamesaint]

I reckon that if the 1984 team were to play the current team, it would be a pretty close game. I reckon that the current team would win by say the odd goal in 5.

 

Mind you, the 1984 team are beginning to get on a bit. Some of them may even be in their 60's so it would be inevitable that they would tire towards the end of the game.

[Stud mark of doom]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

Would only come down to the era of the ref; that's a good one Stud.

 

I was thinking Dennis and Williams would probably be sent off early doors with a 11/12 ref.

[whelk]

Surely it is about time we built statues of all this best ever squad. Hey we had our first away win in over 2 months the other day. When has a team ever done that?

 

I knew forums had their share of idiots but this is plain embarassing

[The9]

Oh please, do us a favour. The 1984 team contained the best goalkeeper in the world, the best young striker in England, a former England captain, an England international centre half, the best left back never to play for England and finished second to the Liverpool side which was easily the best team in Europe and one of the best sides England has ever produced. To say that the team that has just come out of the 3rd tier of English football and is top of the championship after 15 games is even close to that is just plain mental.

 

I... agree... with... Turkish.

 

I'd argue that even without sports science these were top international and domestic players in an era where the ball was going end to end in an unprecedented manner - players were still superfit to a degree where the comparison with today is barely a factor (they were also capable of playing 42 matches in the top tier along with full first teams in two other Cup competitions and the occasional European sojourn until '85, without having more than one sub per match or squad rotation, in an era where physical contact wasn't frowned upon). The advances of sports science enable clubs to get the utmost out of their individual players, but whether that's actually more than players were capable of in the 80s is still open to question - it's not like there wasn't any training.

 

Mostly I'd say it was the technical skills that weren't as advanced, certainly the show pony stuff Nani and C Ronaldo can do wasn't there then, but as 99% of all players are below their level even now, I'd still question how much of that is essential to the business of getting results ? Passing the ball on the deck was something that most players could do well in the 80s - but the mindset wasn't usually to do that (Liverpool being a notable exception, and half their passes were to the keeper). The speed of the game in some of those Saints clips from the early 80s is incredible, though so is the amount of possession turned over.

 

In terms of "pressing", there's probably a lot more pressure on the ball from the "one touch whacking up the pitch to the speedy wide man" stuff that a lot of teams used in the 80s than even in the Championship today, never mind in the Prem where teams will often sit off players in as much as half of the pitch.

 

I think the depth of skill is deeper nowadays than it was in the 80s, not least due to the Prem grafting a layer of world class internationals on top of the league, and the impact of technical coaching which makes players more tactically aware - but I don't feel there's a huge gap between ability or fitness of 80s players to today's, certainly not when comparing a top 2 top tier 1980s team with a first placed second tier side in 2011.

Edited 10 November, 2011 by The9

[James]

The team are doing brilliantly but for me the 2002/3 and 2003/4 squads were better (the best I have seen in my lifetime)

 

It's an impossible comparison though because it is all relative. This team is top of the Championship but the 2002/3 team finished 8th in the Premiership.

 

So for me, we can't really compare because we don't know what the current team would do if they were playing in the Prem. Although I don't think they'd finish anywhere near 8th.

 

Also, as much as I like Rickie anyone who thinks he is better than Beatts was then is sadly misguided. How can we possibly say that a player who has never played above Championship level is better than a player who scored 25 goals a season in the top tier of English football and was called into the England squad?

 

Of course, given the opportunity Rickie might emulate Beattie but to say with confidence that he is better than Beattie at this point is madness.

[david in sweden]

Also, as much as I like Rickie anyone who thinks he is better than Beatts was then is sadly misguided. How can we possibly say that a player who has never played above Championship level is better than a player who scored 25 goals a season in the top tier of English football and was called into the England squad?

Of course, given the opportunity Rickie might emulate Beattie but to say with confidence that he is better than Beattie at this point is madness.

 

 

agree totally with that.. Rickie is excellent - in this division... (especially when you consider he hadn't played above L1 before this season)

James Beattie's (Saints) career is absolutely typical of a striker. Looking at his record;

he signed in Aug 1998, played 22games +13 subs. got a creditable 5 goals when you consider we only just survived, and MLT only got 6 that season.

 

1999-2000.. he mostly spent on the bench. started 8 games and sub in 10 but scored 0. (Pahars got 13, Kevin Davies 6, Katchloul 5, Tessem 4)

 

2000-2001..started 29 games, + sub in 8. Scored 6 in 4 games, and then 4 in the next 5.... then scored only 1 in 17 games after New Year

 

2001-2002.. started 24, sub in 4, but scored 12 though nearly all before Xmas. (Pahars top scored with 14).

 

2002-2003 ...here is the essence of the striker..a frustrating 10 games before he scored his first... then gets 11 goals in 8 games (inkl. hat-trick)

then...got another 5 in the two weeks after Xmas and proceeded to score in SIX consecutive games afterwards, but only 1 in the last 5 games.

End of season he'd scored 23 goals in 35 starts. Missed Golden Boot award (won by Thierry Henry that year), but was top ENGLISH Prem. striker.

 

He never bettered those stats. but still moved to Everton for £6 million ...and hardly ever scored for them, before going off on loans to other clubs.

 

 

I'd dearly love to see Lambert score goals in the Prem. and he does have a 3 year contract. After all those years in the lower leagues, he deserves it !

Edited 10 November, 2011 by david in sweden

[StVince1966]

believe this style of play is the best we have played for a decade or more! we have certaintly had better players no question of that if you were to put down your best saints 11 i dont think anyone in this current team would get in? but the style of play is as exciting as any of the dell teams of the eighties!

[david in sweden]

believe this style of play is the best we have played for a decade or more! we have certaintly had better players no question of that if you were to put down your best saints 11 i dont think anyone in this current team would get in? but the style of play is as exciting as any of the dell teams of the eighties!

 

agree with that 100%

[Cabrone]

This is not the best team and it's unfair to even try and compare them with teams of the past when they haven't ever played in the top division.

 

They can only beat what is put infront of them and at the moment they are doing this whilst also playing great football.

[Saint Without a Halo]

This is not the best team and it's unfair to even try and compare them with teams of the past when they haven't ever played in the top division.

 

They can only beat what is put infront of them and at the moment they are doing this whilst also playing great football.

 

This