Proof that we don't need to fill SMS to expand...

[doddisalegend]

MK Dons are expanding staduim MK to around 32.000 despite getting crowds of around 8,000 it seems that they have plans to use it for lots of non-football related things.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15636043.stm

 

I know expanding SMS has been a topic around here for a while the main bone of contention being would we fill an enlarged SMS. But maybe there is money to be made from non footballing activites that would make having a larger stadium profitable, even if we don't fill it with saints fans.

 

God knows what the atmosphere will be like at MK Dons home matches though with the place only a quarter full, it wasn't exactly good before. Same goes for SMS wouldn't enjoy a 45,000 seat stadium with 15,000 empty seats.

[Danbert]

That's not proof - they have to actually make money on it first for it to prove anything.

[ant]

Surely the pitch surface would start to take a pounding if we allowed a multitude of other events to take place on it though? Rather not do it for that reason, and wait for when (or if?) we're selling out home games and need the extra space on a regular basis.

[This Charming Man]

All that proves is they're deluded.

[Saint Garrett]

Be very odd to watch football in. The Ricoh on Saturday was bad enough and that was about 15k in a 32kstadium. Middlesbrough had 14k in a 35k stadium on Saturday. It must be horrible to watch football in week in week out. Would much rather play in a stadium full at 20k.

[doddisalegend]

That's not proof - they have to actually make money on it first for it to prove anything.

 

yeah meant to put a ? at the end of the title.

[hutch]

I think they're just putting a few more seats in. The stadium's already built.

[The9]

MK Dons are expanding staduim MK to around 32.000 despite getting crowds of around 8,000 it seems that they have plans to use it for lots of non-football related things.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15636043.stm

 

I know expanding SMS has been a topic around here for a while the main bone of contention being would we fill an enlarged SMS. But maybe there is money to be made from non footballing activites that would make having a larger stadium profitable, even if we don't fill it with saints fans.

 

God knows what the atmosphere will be like at MK Dons home matches though with the place only a quarter full, it wasn't exactly good before. Same goes for SMS wouldn't enjoy a 45,000 seat stadium with 15,000 empty seats.

 

MK Dons' stadium was built to hold 40,000 in the first place in lieu of the World Cup 2018 bid, there's a completely empty tier around the top which is ready to put seats onto. If you can point me at a similar area in St Mary's, please do.

[doddisalegend]

MK Dons' stadium was built to hold 40,000 in the first place in lieu of the World Cup 2018 bid, there's a completely empty tier around the top which is ready to put seats onto. If you can point me at a similar area in St Mary's, please do.

 

Hey I'm not coming down on the debate on one side or the other, I'm firmly sat with a fence up my arse. It's a slow football week thought it might provoke some disscussion that's all.

 

I have zero experince of building football stadia but I'm sure someone can figure out how to increase the capacity if the owners wanted to do it. Whether they should is more to the point rather than if it can be physically done.

[Saint Luke]

Where have you been?

This has been discussed so many times and it's common knowledge that 2 (?) of the stands are capable of being expanded.

[Third Division South Days]

I have been surprised that St Mary's has only been used for football and hospitality since the takeover. I thought the stadium is licenced for several concerts a year which would generate significant income.

[The Kraken]

I have been surprised that St Mary's has only been used for football and hospitality since the takeover. I thought the stadium is licenced for several concerts a year which would generate significant income.

 

A condition of getting planning permission for the stadium was that it would only host a maximum of one concert per year, no more.

 

We are therefore extremely limited in what else we could use the ground for; no local rugby club to host, minimal concerts, aside from the hospitality side there's not a great deal of other uses for it. Which makes the decision whether to spend another £30M just to bring the capacity up to 40K an extremely important one, and one that should not under any circumstances be rushed into.

[doddisalegend]

A condition of getting planning permission for the stadium was that it would only host a maximum of one concert per year, no more.We are therefore extremely limited in what else we could use the ground for; no local rugby club to host, minimal concerts, aside from the hospitality side there's not a great deal of other uses for it. Which makes the decision whether to spend another £30M just to bring the capacity up to 40K an extremely important one, and one that should not under any circumstances be rushed into.

 

I didn't know that. It seems a shame the club can't increase the income from the stadium that sits empty most of the time.

[The Kraken]

I didn't know that. It seems a shame the club can't increase the income from the stadium that sits empty most of the time.

 

It may well have changed since, I'm not 100% sure; but I lived in a flat in central town during the design/build and at the time there were loads of discussions about crowds, noise etc whereby the club had to satisfy a certain number of conditions. One of those was that the club wanted to maximise revenues from the stadium but there was a lot of opposition to having regular football plus regular concerts etc, which was why the 1 per year limit was put on it.

[david in sweden]

Be very odd to watch football in. The Ricoh on Saturday was bad enough and that was about 15k in a 32kstadium. Middlesbrough had 14k in a 35k stadium on Saturday. It must be horrible to watch football in week in week out. Would much rather play in a stadium full at 20k.

 

It didn't sound like Cortese was pi**ing in the wind when he made those statements before (not for the first time), so the project has obviously been discussed /and doubtless budgeted already, and is only awaiting the " on pitch success " to take us up to the Prem.

When SMS opened 10 years ago, we averaged around 30K per game, and I'm sure we could have squeezed in a few more had it not been for the

empty-seat segregation demanded to keep the rival fans apart.

Could we have had more ?..perhaps on some occasions, (as some of the larger clubs in the Prem. have a big away following, too).

I could envisage 35K, even 40K for a top game v. one of the Manchester sides, Arsenal or Chelsea - but hardly quite so many for every home game.

 

I think the main difference is that we have a better than even chance of going up, but the likes of MK Dons and Coventry are hardly likely to fill their existing arenas this side of bankruptcy. A stadium of that size would also be an attractive alternative venue for international games, but extending SMS to a 50K arena is a great thought - but not likely to be a big money maker..unless we really make the big time and go into Europe. Cortese's vision has my approval, I only hope it's profitable.

Edited 8 November, 2011 by david in sweden

[Turkish]

I do love all this talk of Corteses vision. Lowe had a vision as well, develop the youth team, employ upcoming British managers. It's not that dissimilar, the only difference is Lowe had shareholders to pay a dividend to every year. Lowe got it wrong, Cortese has got it right, so far. But we can all "have a vision" what is really needed is north of 300 million quid burning a whole in your pocket to make it happen. Does Cortese? Who knows, one thing is for sure, it takes more than a vision to make it reality.

[The Kraken]

It didn't sound like Cortese was pi**ing in the wind when he made those statements before (not for the first time), so the project has obviously been discussed /and doubtless budgeted already, and is only awaiting the " on pitch success " to take us up to the Prem.

When SMS opened 10 years ago, we averaged around 30K per game, and I'm sure we could have squeezed in a few more had it not been for the

empty-seat segregation demanded to keep the rival fans apart.

Could we have had more ?..perhaps on some occasions, (as some of the larger clubs in the Prem. have a big away following, too).

I could envisage 35K, even 40K for a top game v. one of the Manchester sides, Arseanl or Chelsea but hardly so many for every home game.

 

Yep, a fair assessment, though I think we'll need to see sustained sell-outs over a number of seasons and a higher season ticket base than we've ever seen before it actually happens.

 

I think the main difference is that we have a better than even chance of going up , but the likes of MK Dons and Coventry are hardly likely to fill their existing arenas this side of bankruptcy.

This is the issue that gets so overlooked in the whole debate; at the time of building St. Mary's it was estimated that stadium expansion would cost £3,000 per extra seat. Given that was nearly ten years ago now, and with staff and material costs only having increased in that time, you're talking at least £4,000 to £5,000 per additional seat, potentially even higher than that. So to take the capacity of St. Mary's up to 40,000, that's a potential additional cost of £30M - £40M (minimum). More than the cost to build the original stadium. That money isn't just going to present itself, there's going to have to be a very real potential for earning that outlay back from increased revenues within a relatively short timeframe.

 

A stadium of that size would also be an attractive alternative venue for international games, but extending SMS to a 50K arena is a great thought - but not likely to be a big money maker..unless we really make the big time and go into Europe. Cortese's vision has my approval, I only hope it's profitable.

For as long as the FA have got the financial millstone of Wemblet Stadium around their neck, international football will be going nowhere else. Even if it did, the FA are all about maximising revenues which means the likes of Old Trafford, Emirates, St. James Park, Stadium of Light etc etc would be in the queue way before us.

[dellboypete]

I think they're just putting a few more seats in. The stadium's already built.

 

Went there for Saints rearranged (due to ML passing on RIP) match last year. Have to say it's potentially one of the better stadia in England. Comfy seats(!) and I liked the open mezzanine type level that looks out over the pitch.

[Lighthouse]

I've been to reserve games at Staplewood with more atmosphere than El Stadio MK. Went there that year Lambert scored a hat trick and you needed binoculars to see the home fans. Think there were about 9,000 fans all in all, with as much space for segregation as there were occupied seats. Imagine the Chapel full of home fans and the Northam full of away fans, with the rest just used as segregation and you're not far off. Dreadful place.

[rooney]

Any sound businessman would require at least 25K ST Holders for three years or so and sell outs every week, before he would even consider expansion at SMS. We did not get that many when we were in the Premiership before and I doubt we will again. Anybody who thinks otherwise is deluded, so once and for all, let's forget this expansionist thread that seems to come up with alarming regularity these days.

[paulwantsapint]

Would like to get an away cup game at MK just so we could take every saints fan who wanted to go

[david in sweden]

Yep, a fair assessment, though I think we'll need to see sustained sell-outs over a number of seasons and a higher season ticket base than we've ever seen before it actually happens.

 

This is the issue that gets so overlooked in the whole debate; at the time of building St. Mary's it was estimated that stadium expansion would cost £3,000 per extra seat. Given that was nearly ten years ago now, and with staff and material costs only having increased in that time, you're talking at least £4,000 to £5,000 per additional seat, potentially even higher than that. So to take the capacity of St. Mary's up to 40,000, that's a potential additional cost of £30M - £40M (minimum). More than the cost to build the original stadium. That money isn't just going to present itself, there's going to have to be a very real potential for earning that outlay back from increased revenues within a relatively short timeframe.

 

For as long as the FA have got the financial millstone of Wemblet Stadium around their neck, international football will be going nowhere else. Even if it did, the FA are all about maximising revenues which means the likes of Old Trafford, Emirates, St. James Park, Stadium of Light etc etc would be in the queue way before us.

 

Fair comment Kraken.

1) ...we'll soon see what sort of gates we're getting after half a season in the Prem.

 

2) Costs have, of course, have increased, but then my house is (hopefully) worth twice what it was when we moved in 10 years ago.

I was surprised / amazed to see the cost of Brighton's new home..with only 25K capacity ?..OK I know they've got a shopping centre there too, but nevertheless money always seems to be there - if there is a genuine desire to build. Profitabilty is another thing.

 

3) Sadly, you may be right there but who knows what the future may hold. Chelsea and Arsenal are still trying to cram 40K into their antiquated arenas

whereas Arsenal seem to have built at the right time, and get around 60K almost every game. Admittedly, their catchment area is much larger, but as was noted in the pre SMS days, we'll never know how many fans we "might" have got in much of our Premiership days, when the Dell capacity was reduced to 15,000 all seater.

[Matthew Le God]

Any sound businessman would require at least 25K ST Holders for three years or so and sell outs every week, before he would even consider expansion at SMS. We did not get that many when we were in the Premiership before and I doubt we will again. Anybody who thinks otherwise is deluded, so once and for all, let's forget this expansionist thread that seems to come up with alarming regularity these days.

 

How do you think the club ended up with averages over 30k for all four Premier League seasons at St Mary's? It was because a lot of games sold out long in advance of the matchday. Had the stadium been bigger, more tickets could have been sold. People claim that it was easy to get a ticket back then, which is nonsence because on the numerous occasions St Mary's sold out once that had happened no-one else could get a ticket and you would stop trying .

 

If the club is promoted it will return to 30k+ averages in a 32k stadium straight away, no need to wait and see. If a club can can 30k+ crowds for League One and Championship games in the 2nd and 3rd tier, fixtures against a large number of Premier LEague clubs could attract a lot more and make an expansion worth while. Hence why Cortese has already been talking about plans for expansions.

Edited 8 November, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

How do you think the club ended up with averages over 30k for all four Premier League seasons at St Mary's? It was because a lot of games sold out long in advance of the matchday. Had the stadium been bigger, more tickets could have been sold. If the club is promoted it will return to this straight away, no need to wait and see. If a club can can 30k+ crowds for League One and Championship games in the 2nd and 3rd tier, fixtures against a large number of Premier LEague clubs could attract a lot more and make an expansion worth while. Hence why Cortese has already been talking about plans for expansions.

 

Here we go yet again.

 

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever but continue to come out with "factual" lines such as "a lot of games sold out long in advance of matchday". How many games? How long in advance of matchday? Without that evidence all of your posturing and speculation is baseless and therefore just idle gossip.

 

As for your "If the club is promoted it will return to this straight away, no need to wait and see". The lack of evidence clearly lies in the fact that we're not expanding already; thank God that Cortese seemingly has a sounder business mind than you.

[Matthew Le God]

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever but continue to come out with "factual" lines such as "a lot of games sold out long in advance of matchday". How many games? How long in advance of matchday? Without that evidence all of your posturing and speculation is baseless and therefore just idle gossip.

 

Because I and others have given our accounts of how it was back in 2001 to 2005. Many games saw attendances of between 30k to 32k and were officially classed as "sellouts". I clearly remember these as having sold out a week and sometimes much longer ahead of the game. Many games didn't have ticket sales on the day of the game.

 

As for your "If the club is promoted it will return to this straight away, no need to wait and see". The evidence of that is clearly in the fact that we're not expanding already; thank God that Cortese seemingly has a sounder business mind than you.

 

Even the relegation season of 2004/05 saw average crowds of 30k+. I think it is naive and extremely pessimistic to think the groundswell in belief in the club from the fanbase under Cortese/Liebherr compared to that of a relegation campaign under Rupert Lowe would see smaller crowds.

 

Only a matter of weeks ago a top Championship game at St Mary's on a Tuesday night saw a crowd of 32,152 and was a sell out. There would be numerous more attractive fixtures than that should the club be promoted. More attractive matches than the West Ham 2nd tier Tuesday night game = increase in demand. Increase in demand that can't be sustained with current capacity requires a stadium expansion. Hence why Cortese has plans for such a thing.

Edited 8 November, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[david in sweden]

Any sound businessman would require at least 25K ST Holders for three years or so and sell outs every week, before he would even consider expansion at SMS. We did not get that many when we were in the Premiership before and I doubt we will again.

 

Anybody who thinks otherwise is deluded, so once and for all, let's forget this expansionist thread that seems to come up with alarming regularity these days.

 

I actually agree with that part myself., but the only disconcerting part of that is ..that the club's Chairman is the one who has raised the issue on more than one occasion (??).

He must have something on his mind to go public with such thoughts, especially when you consider his apparant "secrecy" on many other issues...

.

[Matthew Le God]

Any sound businessman would require at least 25K ST Holders for three years.

 

I actually agree with that part myself., but the only disconcerting part of that is ..that the club's Chairman is the one who has raised the issue on more than one occasion (??).

 

He must have something on his mind to go public with such thoughts, especially when you consider his apparant "secrecy" on many other issues...

 

Sunderland had 10k season ticket holders when they moved to the then 42k capacity Stadium of Light, which was later expanded to 49k.

Edited 8 November, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

Because I and others have given our accounts of how it was back in 2001 to 2005. Many games saw attendances of between 30k to 32k and were officially classed as "sellouts". I clearly remember these as having sold out a week and sometimes much longer ahead of the game. Many games didn't have ticket sales on the day of the game.

 

And your memories seem to clash very much from others on here; others (including myself) who can't remember having too much difficulty getting to games when they wanted to. Again, without any clear evidence either way you're trying to enter into a debate based upon speculation.

 

Even the relegation season of 2004/05 saw average crowds of 30k+. I think it is naive and extremely pessimistic to think the groundswell in belief in the club from the fanbase under Cortese/Liebherr compared to that of a relegation campaign under Rupert Lowe would see smaller crowds.

 

I think you're being a bit dim if you think I'm saying that demand for tickets will decrease if we go up. I've never said that, and I think you know that. Even in this thread you can read where I've agreed with David in Sweden that gates of 35K - 40K against the top sides are potentially within our reach, in time.

 

What I have consistently maintained however, and it is a point that you have continually argued against, is that there is no evidence that we could sustain such a 40,000 seater stadium. We would likely sell some tickets above 32,000, I don't think that's ever been in doubt for the bigger games.

 

What is a massive doubt is just how many over 32,000 we could sell. And the only way for the current owners to start figuring that out is to get back to the Premier League and put some proper checks and balances in place. Such as:

 

- what is our season ticket base, and how close to home capacity is it?

- how many games sell out?

- how quickly do these games sell out? Is it hours before the game (such as our recent game against West Ham) or is it more?

- if certain high-demand home games went to a ballot, just how many fans would want to go?

 

Only some of these answers can be found using empirical evidence; maybe the club has access to it, maybe they don't. Other questions, particularly the last one, can only be ascertained as and when we get to the PL. And I feel for certain that Mr. Cortese will adopt this policy rather than your one of "we don't need to wait and see". which is why expansion of capacity is still massively premature.

[stevegrant]

Sunderland had 10k season ticket holders when they moved to the then 42k capacity Stadium of Light, which was later expanded to 49k.

There is a significant difference between moving from an old run-down ground into a brand new state-of-the-art arena and expanding an existing venue, as you well know. Sunderland may have had 10k STHs at Roker Park, but we had fewer than that at The Dell because of its small capacity. Are you suggesting it was foolish for us to move to St Mary's?

[JRM]

If we gave away team 6000 tickets that would be an immediate boost to attendances against the big clubs, not that i'd want to do that, but that would mean we could get 35k without even having to increase our fan base

[Matthew Le God]

And your memories seem to clash very much from others on here; others (including myself) who can't remember having too much difficulty getting to games when they wanted to. Again, without any clear evidence either way you're trying to enter into a debate based upon speculation.

 

For games that hadn't sold out at the time you went to get tickets, of course you wouldn't have a problem. However once they had sold out and this was made public you wouldn't bother trying. Numerous games had gates of 30k+ and were classified as "sellouts", these were not sellouts on the day of the game, the sold out banner went up long in advance.

 

 

 

I think you're being a bit dim if you think I'm saying that demand for tickets will decrease if we go up. I've never said that, and I think you know that. Even in this thread you can read where I've agreed with David in Sweden that gates of 35K - 40K against the top sides are potentially within our reach, in time.

 

It is you being "a bit dim" as the post I was responding to with that was where you suggested the club would not instantly return to the 30k averages of the past (most significantly the 2004/05 relegation season).

 

What I have consistently maintained however, and it is a point that you have continually argued against, is that there is no evidence that we could sustain such a 40,000 seater stadium. We would likely sell some tickets above 32,000, I don't think that's ever been in doubt for the bigger games.

 

Why just the "big Premeir League games"?

 

Saints have had circa 30k attendances for matches against 2nd and 3rd tier teams and also numerous sell out against the "lesser" Premier League sides when last in that league.

 

What is a massive doubt is just how many over 32,000 we could sell. And the only way for the current owners to start figuring that out is to get back to the Premier League and put some proper checks and balances in place. Such as:

 

- what is our season ticket base, and how close to home capacity is it?

- how many games sell out?

- how quickly do these games sell out? Is it hours before the game (such as our recent game against West Ham) or is it more?

- if certain high-demand home games went to a ballot, just how many fans would want to go?

 

 

Only some of these answers can be found using empirical evidence; maybe the club has access to it, maybe they don't. Other questions, particularly the last one, can only be ascertained as and when we get to the PL. And I feel for certain that Mr. Cortese will adopt this policy rather than your one of "we don't need to wait and see". which is why expansion of capacity is still massively premature.

 

Cortese and the club already have access to more data about this than you or I from the first four years at St Mary's and more recent years in the 2nd and 3rd tiers. It is Cortese that has made public his desire and intentions to expand the stadium, so it is clearly based on the fact he believes there would be the demand to support it.

[Matthew Le God]

There is a significant difference between moving from an old run-down ground into a brand new state-of-the-art arena and expanding an existing venue, as you well know. Sunderland may have had 10k STHs at Roker Park, but we had fewer than that at The Dell because of its small capacity. Are you suggesting it was foolish for us to move to St Mary's?

 

Saints sold out The Dell in the years building upto the move, Sunderland didn't always sell out Roker Park.

[The Kraken]

If we gave away team 6000 tickets that would be an immediate boost to attendances against the big clubs, not that i'd want to do that, but that would mean we could get 35k without even having to increase our fan base

 

It's a dreadful business plan. You don't build a bigger stadium to then have to rely upon the bigger clubs bringing a huge away contingent to fill it. You don't build a bigger stadium to give away free/cheap tickets just to fill it. How many of the other stadia in the PL that were expanded then decided to double their away allocation. It doesn't happen, and there's a very good business reason for it.

 

 

You only build a bigger stadium because there is an obvious short term and long term demand for more home tickets.

[Matthew Le God]

You only build a bigger stadium because there is an obvious short term and long term demand for more home tickets.

 

Such as...

 

- Selling 30k+ tickets in a 32k stadium whilst in the 2nd and 3rd tier for some games

- Having a club record attendance of 32,152 for a Tuesday night 2nd tier game within the last few weeks

- Having 4 consecutive years of averaging over 30k in a 32k stadium

- Selling out in numerous games including against "lesser" Premier League teams the last time you were there

[Micky]

Going back to the original subject, I think it's somewhat short sighted to expand a stadium with the view to hosting non football events. As others have stated - setting such events up normally requires an awful lot of planning, coordination and changing in the dynamics of the stadium. Couple that with the obvious wear and degradation of the playing area, which obviously poses yet more problems. Also, how many viable 'arena' events do you need to come up with in order to make your money back - as Kraken stated - most such venues will only be licenced to and restricted to holding a certain number of such events.

 

I think a good indicator will be the new Olympic Stadium. As I understand it once (if) WHU take ownership of it - it is to be a community stadium and hold multiple events other than football. Situated in London there should be no shortage of punters, but it remains to be seen:

 

How many non footballing events will the stadium host and will they be successful?

Will it have a detrimental effect on (what I suppose) it's primary purpose of hosting football matches?

 

For me, I really don't think expansion for other arena events is really viable. Time will tell.

[The Kraken]

Cortese and the club already have access to more data about this than you or I from the first four years at St Mary's and more recent years in the 2nd and 3rd tiers. It is Cortese that has made public his desire and intentions to expand the stadium, so it is clearly based on the fact he believes there would be the demand to support it.

 

This is the only bit I'm going to respond to, because the rest of your post is just speculative and you're trying to argue a point I'm just not going to waste my time discussing without any evidence, which you clearly don't have.

 

Cortese made public the fact that he would not rule anything in or our with regard to either a new stadium or a bigger one. He also said that it was a long way off. Only you have turned that into a "promise" that we're going to start building soon, and that the evidence is there we need one. Cortese has never said that; ever. He's said that he would look to support it if the demand were there. Massive difference.

 

If Cortese believed the demand were there for a huge 50K stadium (as I believe you've pushed for in the past) I just don't understand why we would not be building one now. Why he would not be talking about his grand plan, about the evidence he has to hand about our enormous supporter base, and how plans were being submitted/approved so that we have this new stadium in time for the PL. Why he would not be putting the marketing steps in right now to ensure that 50K stadium will be full up when we kick off in the PL.

 

But then I'm pretty sure I know why that's not happening. And while i commend how optimistic you are about the situation, unfortunately I cannot see anywhere beyond the naievety of your belief, and I'm sorry but none of your lecturing is going to make me think otherwise.

[Matthew Le God]

Going back to the original subject, I think it's somewhat short sighted to expand a stadium with the view to hosting non football events. As others have stated - setting such events up normally requires an awful lot of planning, coordination and changing in the dynamics of the stadium. Couple that with the obvious wear and degradation of the playing area, which obviously poses yet more problems. Also, how many viable 'arena' events do you need to come up with in order to make your money back - as Kraken stated - most such venues will only be licenced to and restricted to holding a certain number of such events.

 

I think a good indicator will be the new Olympic Stadium. As I understand it once (if) WHU take ownership of it - it is to be a community stadium and hold multiple events other than football. Situated in London there should be no shortage of punters, but it remains to be seen:

 

How many non footballing events will the stadium host and will they be successful?

Will it have a detrimental effect on (what I suppose) it's primary purpose of hosting football matches?

 

For me, I really don't think expansion for other arena events is really viable. Time will tell.

 

I think all they are doing is putting the seats in the upper tier, which has already been built. Largely everything else is already in place apart from a few internal things.

 

 

The majority of that £50m is for the shopping centres etc outside the stadium.

[Micky]

Such as...

 

- Selling 30k+ tickets in a 32k stadium whilst in the 2nd and 3rd tier for some games

- Having a club record attendance of 32,152 for a Tuesday night 2nd tier game within the last few weeks

- Having 4 consecutive years of averaging over 30k in a 32k stadium

- Selling out in numerous games including against "lesser" Premier League teams the last time you were there

 

We've done this before mate. It's not about the number of people who were in the stadium at any one point in time. It's about the number of people who were not able to get in.

 

I have never seen any evidence of fans complaining in large numbers because they were not able to get into the stadium or the supply was stripping demand. Do we have a season ticket waiting list - how many fans have registered and are waiting to buy?

 

Without the justifiable potential growth figures - expansion really is not an option.

[Matthew Le God]

This is the only bit I'm going to respond to, because the rest of your post is just speculative and you're trying to argue a point I'm just not going to waste my time discussing without any evidence, which you clearly don't have.

 

It isn't speculative at all. Try responding to them.

 

I do have evidence, first hand experience from 2001 to 2005 when I wasn't a season ticket holder or a member. Plus the evidence of the attendances in the Premier League years of 2001 to 2005 and also attendances whilst Saints were in the 2nd and 3rd tier of English football. If a club can get 30k for a Boxing Day game against Exeter, do you not think a Boxing Day game against Spurs for example could attract a lot more?

 

Cortese made public the fact that he would not rule anything in or our with regard to either a new stadium or a bigger one. He also said that it was a long way off. Only you have turned that into a "promise" that we're going to start building soon, and that the evidence is there we need one. Cortese has never said that; ever. He's said that he would look to support it if the demand were there. Massive difference.

 

If Cortese believed the demand were there for a huge 50K stadium (as I believe you've pushed for in the past) I just don't understand why we would not be building one now. Why he would not be talking about his grand plan, about the evidence he has to hand about our enormous supporter base, and how plans were being submitted/approved so that we have this new stadium in time for the PL. Why he would not be putting the marketing steps in right now to ensure that 50K stadium will be full up when we kick off in the PL.

 

Picking up on his and your comments about a new stadium. Do you agree there would be little point in building a new stadium if it only slightly increased capacity to say 35k or 38k. The fact he has considered a stadium move suggests that he has plans for significantly larger than 32k for either the more likely St Mary's increase or indeed a new stadium. I don't think it will be a new stadium, but the fact he has mentioned it as a possible option they have looked at indicates the scale he is looking at in terms of capacities, as do his comments in the fans dinners of 45k+.

[Micky]

I think all they are doing is putting the seats in the upper tier, which has already been built. Largely everything else is already in place apart from a few internal things.

 

 

The majority of that £50m is for the shopping centres etc outside the stadium.

 

Yes - but what sort of 'areana' events are they planning in hosting? A concert - a stage, speedway - a track, and so on and so forth. It's not quite so simplistic as we have a venue - I'm just not convinced of the viabliltiy of the staging or the fact that the events will prove popular and thus lucrative.

[The Kraken]

Yes - but what sort of 'areana' events are they planning in hosting? A concert - a stage, speedway - a track, and so on and so forth. It's not quite so simplistic as we have a venue - I'm just not convinced of the viabliltiy of the staging or the fact that the events will prove popular and thus lucrative.

 

I'm not sure if the whole MK "experiment" is all that viable. Huge stadium, yet last season their highest league crowd was just under 12,000 and their average for the season only 8,500. We, Leeds, Norwich etc have shown what sort of crowds can be achieved in that division. Unless MK's owners have got some brilliant ideas beyond football up their sleeves for the additional capacity, I can't see the stadium as becoming anything other than a huge white elephant.

[Matthew Le God]

The Kraken (and others),

 

What evidence do you think Wolves used when they decided to go ahead with this...?

 

 

 

Phase 1 takes capacity upto 31k

Phase 2 takes capacity upto 36k

Phase 3 takes capacity upto 50k

 

Phase 1 and 2 are definitely going ahead and would have regardless of relegation last season. They believe there is a potential for phase 3 and have plans for it if required.

 

Last season Wolves averaged 27k, they haven't had average gates of 30k+ to use as evidence since 1970. Where as Saints did as recently as 2005 and that was the last of 4 consecutive seasons of 30k+ averages and also a relegation season.

Edited 8 November, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

It isn't speculative at all. Try responding to them.

 

I do have evidence, first hand experience from 2001 to 2005 when I wasn't a season ticket holder or a member. Plus the evidence of the attendances in the Premier League years of 2001 to 2005 and also attendances whilst Saints were in the 2nd and 3rd tier of English football. If a club can get 30k for a Boxing Day game against Exeter, do you not think a Boxing Day game against Spurs for example could attract a lot more?

 

I'm sorry, but I won't respond to it as there is no evidence. Read your last sentence; you're asking me to speculate if we could potentially sell more tickets, and by how much. I've already said I THINK we probably could sell more, but in the light of neither seeing no evidence nor being made aware of any, I have no idea to suggest if it would be by tens, hundreds or thousands. And I've already highlighted the manner in which I think this evidence can and will be gathered; so please don't continually question me on this, I have no wish to keep labouring the same point over and over again.

 

Picking up on his and your comments about a new stadium. Do you agree there would be little point in building a new stadium if it only slightly increased capacity to say 35k or 38k. The fact he has considered a stadium move suggests that he has plans for significantly larger than 32k for either the more likely St Mary's increase or indeed a new stadium. I don't think it will be a new stadium, but the fact he has mentioned it as a possible option they have looked at indicates the scale he is looking at in terms of capacities, as do his comments in the fans dinners of 45k+.

 

Firstly, I'm not sure if I do agree that there's no point in only increasing to, say 38k, no. The Northam, Chapel and Kingsland stands can all be increased in size independently. Northam and Chapel by 4,000 seats each, Kingsland by 8,000. So it's obvious we have various options available to us. We could increase to 36,000 with a couple of different options, or we could increase to 40,000, again with a couple of different options.

 

If you're asking for a prediction, I honestly have no idea. I do not have a clue what sort of maximum crowds we could get on a regular basis in the Premier League. I know I don't agree with you that a 50K stadium is realistic, as I don't think we'd even sell that many for even one league game per year unless we gave a huge amount to travelling supporters and discounted loads more, which really defeats the object.

 

I would suggest what I would like to happen (if we do find that demand is there) would be for the Kingsland to be expanded, and so take capacity to 40K. Most of that is based upon aesthetics though, a ground with either just the Chapel/Northam expanded would look a bit weird.

[Turkish]

As i said on another thread i am a convert to his way of thinking. On my recent holiday the fans staying in our hotel i was aware of was as follows

 

Man United 3

Man city 2

Saints 2

Chelsea 1

Norwich 1

Everton 1

Arsenal 1

Spurs 1

 

Proof that we have twice as many fans as Chelsea and Arsenal and are closing in on Man United. Gods knows what we could achieve in the premier league with greater exposure.

 

Add these stats to the compelling evidence that Chelsea got 13k in 1982.Sunderland only got 20,000 at Roker Park.

Fulham get 25k despite being near Chelsea. We've got a massive catchment area which has some imaginary line running fromlondon, through Birmingham to Liverpool it which means everyone from Kent to North Wales, Inc Cardiff and Bristol are potential Saints fans because there is no premier league club in that area. (excluding Swansea now I guess?) something about thousands of day trippers coming up from Devon and Cornwall to see premier league football. Being on an unstoppable march to the premier league with our academy graduate team. Yep all that evidence means that we need to expand quickly. 50k isn't enough we are the new Barcelona, 100k. Anything less is a lack of ambition. It's entirely possible. Afterall Didnt they say man would never walk on the moon.

[The Kraken]

The Kraken (and others),

 

What evidence do you think Wolves used when they decided to go ahead with this...?

 

Phase 1 takes capacity upto 31k

Phase 2 takes capacity upto 36k

Phase 3 takes capacity upto 50k

 

Disingenuous really; firstly, we're not Wolves. Secondly, as you say only phase 2 is guaranteed for now. And also, some of the stands that they are knocking down are undergoing a massive improvement so it's not being done just as a capcity increase, it's increasing the facilities on offer.

 

In any case, who knows what evidence they've used? But I'd hope and expect that it would be along the lines of the evidence I've told you in this thread that I'd look for; namely:

 

- what is their season ticket base, and how close to home capacity is it? In fact, do they have a season ticket waiting list?

- how many games sell out?

- how quickly do these games sell out? Is it hours before the game or is it more?

- if certain high-demand home games went to a ballot, just how many fans would want to go?

 

Whether they've done that, I don't know. But I'd certainly hope that they have, rather than just pluck a figure out of the air because it sounds nice.

 

For what it's worth, my mate is a Wolves fan and often goes to their games, he thinks the potential of them actually getting on with the full implementation of the final phase is pie in the sky. But that's just his opinion.

[Matthew Le God]

I'm sorry, but I won't respond to it as there is no evidence. Read your last sentence; you're asking me to speculate if we could potentially sell more tickets, and by how much. I've already said I THINK we probably could sell more, but in the light of neither seeing no evidence nor being made aware of any, I have no idea to suggest if it would be by tens, hundreds or thousands. And I've already highlighted the manner in which I think this evidence can and will be gathered; so please don't continually question me on this, I have no wish to keep labouring the same point over and over again.

 

I turn that back on you. You don't have evidence that it wouldn't be high.

 

If you can sell 30k for 2nd and 3rd tier matches and games against smaller Premier League sides, a top tier game against some of the biggest sides in the world is far more attractive. It wouldn't be a matter of an "extra ten or few hundred" turning up if the stadium were larger than 32k. More people jump on the bandwagon in the Premier League and we already have had crowds of 30k for 2nd tier and 3rd tier games and those against lower Premier teams.

 

Firstly, I'm not sure if I do agree that there's no point in only increasing to, say 38k, no. The Northam, Chapel and Kingsland stands can all be increased in size independently. Northam and Chapel by 4,000 seats each, Kingsland by 8,000. So it's obvious we have various options available to us. We could increase to 36,000 with a couple of different options, or we could increase to 40,000, again with a couple of different options.

 

I think you need to read my post again. I did not say they is no point only increasing to 38k. What I said was that if Cortese has considered a new stadium as a possibility, that shows he believes gates of much larger than 32k are possible. It would be pointless knocking down St Mary's just to build a 35k or 38k stadium. Only worth doing if it were circa 45k+. Thus even if he didn't build a new stadium, he would still have the same views for an expansion for St Mary's.

 

I'd like you to answer post #42. I think you have said in the past you don't care about what Wolves are doing. But this is a professional sports company in the same way Cortese is running a professional sports company. Both of which have more idea than you or I.

Edited 8 November, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Micky]

I'm not sure if the whole MK "experiment" is all that viable. Huge stadium, yet last season their highest league crowd was just under 12,000 and their average for the season only 8,500. We, Leeds, Norwich etc have shown what sort of crowds can be achieved in that division. Unless MK's owners have got some brilliant ideas beyond football up their sleeves for the additional capacity, I can't see the stadium as becoming anything other than a huge white elephant.

 

This is my fear - I just don't see that you can host that many different events that are going to draw the crowds. I actually don't think that the 'multi-functional' ideas for the Olympic Stadium will last long either. By all means 'test the water', but don't go expanding until you've proved your customer base is banging at the door.

[MarkSFC]

I think there are two reasons for developing St Marys or even building a brand new arena

The obvious one is to generate more revenue through higher attendances and increased hospitality capacity. I think there is a definite case for this

over the coming years, probably around 40-42k.

The other reason is for want of a better phrase is 'future proofing' the stadium. What I mean by tha is that within the next decade I think st marys will look/start to look out-dated, and too much like a flat-pack stadium.

It may also be that a new stadium (who knows where!) would be able to produce far greater day to day revenue.

 

Either way I'm sure NC is already planning! And of course the friendly debate will continue on here!

[Micky]

The Kraken (and others),

 

What evidence do you think Wolves used when they decided to go ahead with this...?

 

 

 

Phase 1 takes capacity upto 31k

Phase 2 takes capacity upto 36k

Phase 3 takes capacity upto 50k

 

Phase 1 and 2 are definitely going ahead and would have regardless of relegation last season. They believe there is a potential for phase 3 and have plans for it if required.

 

Last season Wolves averaged 27k, they haven't had average gates of 30k+ to use as evidence since 1970. Where as Saints did as recently as 2005 and that was the last of 4 consecutive seasons of 30k+ averages and also a relegation season.

 

Based upon what you have quoted there, I think that the expansion takes them more or less to where we are now though. So phase 3 is probably only going to happen once they have concise evidence that there are well over 45K regularly trying to get into the stadium. I'm not against expansion - but continually quoting figures of what teams are currently getting is not going to convince me of anything. Quote figures of those standing outside, waiting to get in.

[The Kraken]

I turn that back on you. You don't have evidence that it wouldn't be high.

 

If you can sell 30k for 2nd and 3rd tier matches and games against smaller Premier League sides, a top tier game against some of the biggest sides in the world is far more attractive. It wouldn't be a matter of an "extra ten or few hundred" turning up if the stadium were larger than 32k. More people jump on the bandwagon in the Premier League and we already have had crowds of 30k for 2nd tier and 3rd tier games and those against lower Premier teams.

 

You're missing my point (again). I've said I think we would sell more tickets than capacity, especially against the top teams. What I don't know is by how much, whether it's tens, hundreds or thousands, and if so, how many thousands? And I simply don't believe there's any point in speculating how big a stadium we should build until we have a pretty reliable indicator as to how many people are going to come and actually fill it. So please understand that, unlike you, I don't believe we have this reliable figure yet.

 

I think you need to read my post again. I did not say they is no point only increasing to 38k. What I said was that if Cortese has considered a new stadium as a possibility, that shows he believes gates of much larger than 32k are possible. It would be pointless knocking down St Mary's just to build a 35k or 38k stadium. Only worth doing if it were circa 45k+. Thus even if he didn't build a new stadium, he would still have the same views for an expansion for St Mary's.

 

I've really got no idea what you're saying here. Stadium expansion at St. Mary's allows us a number of options which can all be implemented independently. So we could go to 36,000. We could go to 40,000. We could go to 44,000. Or we could go to 48,000. At any time; no need to do it all at once. It's the lowest-risk opportunity to build abigger stadium incrementally to satisfy any extra demand (rather than build a brand new one). St. Mary's wouldn't get knocked down to build a brand new 38K seater stadium; one stand would be added to, to either create a 36,000 stadium or 40,000 stadium (depending on which stand). I'm really confused what you mean there, so that's the best interpretation of it I can give.

 

I'd like you to answer post #42. I think you have said in the past you don't care about what Wolves are doing. But this is a professional sports company in the same way Cortese is running a professional sports company. Both of which have more idea than you or I.

 

And I've answered the post about Wolves.