UKIP set to overtake Lib Dems as 3rd largest party?

[hypochondriac]

And not silenced no, but their views should come with the caveat that due to their age they have had little life experience and thus are less able to make informed judgements on certain matters. When I was your age I accepted this and whilst I held certain views, I respected those with more life experience. Some views I was certain of back then I now have completely opposing views and most of that is because I have had first hand experience of life and these issues rather than simply reading about it and thinking I know a lot when really I knew very little at such a young age.

Edited 3 November, 2011 by hypochondriac

[Saintandy666]

Oh course I admit they have a naive view, in that they believe everything politicians say, not that they don't understand issues.

[hypochondriac]

Oh course I admit they have a naive view, in that they believe everything politicians say, not that they don't understand issues.

 

Well that in itself is extremely silly.

[Saintandy666]

Well that in itself is extremely silly.

 

Yes, but they will learn from it, from their first political experience if you like.

[hypochondriac]

Yes, but they will learn from it, from their first political experience if you like.

 

Who is they? Isnt it you? Didnt you want to address my other points?

[Saintandy666]

Who is they? Isnt it you? Didnt you want to address my other points?

 

Well, I still support the Liberal Democrats and even if I am very anti-tuition fee rise, I understand why it had to happen due to the constraints of coalition, so I wouldn't include myself in the angry group of people who stopped supporting the lib dems because of it.

 

What were your other points, I swear you just said that at least I admit students are naive???

[pap]

And not silenced no, but their views should come with the caveat that due to their age they have had little life experience and thus are less able to make informed judgements on certain matters. When I was your age I accepted this and whilst I held certain views, I respected those with more life experience. Some views I was certain of back then I now have completely opposing views and most of that is because I have had first hand experience of life and these issues rather than simply reading about it and thinking I know a lot when really I knew very little at such a young age.

 

Well, experience is a progressive realisation of your own ignorance, at least with me. It goes without saying that your perception of life gets more nuanced as you learn more about it, but it's also true that people can become entrenched in their own viewpoints. Sometimes, the young ask the best questions; ones we forget are important.

[Saintandy666]

I just saw your other post. Just because someone is young, it doesn't mean they can't have an opinion/air an opinion, even if they do change their mind over time. See my point re-silencing people. If you think I am wrong you should try and engage me in debate rather than calling me retarded and not knowing anything about politics. And even at 18, people can have substantial life experience in many areas.

 

I respect your point of view because I believe in democracy and the free market of ideas. All I ask is you respect mine as well and engage me in debate, not just retarded which won't convince anyone.

[revolution saint]

Who is they? Isnt it you? Didnt you want to address my other points?

 

Funny how you fail to address my point that you're an arrogant poster unable to see another's point of view, imo you're a bit dim which is no more than you've accused others of. I can fully see why you get the abuse you do.

[hypochondriac]

Funny how you fail to address my point that you're an arrogant poster unable to see another's point of view, imo you're a bit dim which is no more than you've accused others of. I can fully see why you get the abuse you do.

 

I deliberately didn't reply to you because I had no desire to continue something when I had already outlined my view. Also I don't really want to talk to someone who continues with abuse.

[revolution saint]

I deliberately didn't reply to you because I had no desire to continue something when I had already outlined my view. Also I don't really want to talk to someone who continues with abuse.

 

What abuse? I merely used your own language.

[Saintandy666]

I deliberately didn't reply to you because I had no desire to continue something when I had already outlined my view. Also I don't really want to talk to someone who continues with abuse.

 

In fairness, you have given abuse in the past/shown disrespect for others views so you are being a hypocrite here.

[hypochondriac]

I just saw your other post. Just because someone is young, it doesn't mean they can't have an opinion/air an opinion, even if they do change their mind over time.

 

I know. I said as much in my last post.

 

See my point re-silencing people. If you think I am wrong you should try and engage me in debate rather than calling me retarded and not knowing anything about politics. And even at 18, people can have substantial life experience in many areas.

 

I never called you retarded nor did I say you know nothing about politics. In fact I used my own experience to outline my opinion. You make think you have substantial life experience at 18 but IMO you don't. Not sure I've ever met someone who has substantial life experience at 18. You simply haven't had enough time fending for yourself in the real world.

 

I respect your point of view because I believe in democracy and the free market of ideas. All I ask is you respect mine as well and engage me in debate, not just retarded which won't convince anyone.

 

I never called you retarded, I simply said that in my opinion your views will change an awful lot when you have had time as an adult fending for yourself and that in my experience this is the case an awful lot of the time. Therefore your views whilst valid, come with this caveat.

[hypochondriac]

I take back what I said that lib dem voters know nothing about politics. I believe that quite a few do not but that some may do. I still don't know why people vote for them as a credible government though.

[revolution saint]

In fairness, you have given abuse in the past/shown disrespect for others views so you are being a hypocrite here.

 

Shame is I've stood up for hypo before but he's being a judgemental little prat on this thread, let's hope he gets back to form.

[The Cat]

My opinion is that the Lib Dems do not offer a credible government and thus by voting for them those voters either are not aware of those policies that are unworkable, are voting as a protest or are a bit dim. Of course some of their policies could work and not all are bad, but I can't honestly believe that someone could read extensively into the Lib Dems and their policies and decide that they are the party for them to provide a credible alternative. Fair enough if you believe differently but it's not arrogant to hold that opinion.

 

On that basis there's no point voting for UKIP or any other party except Labour or Tory because no one else has the clout to form a credible government.

[Saintandy666]

I take back what I said that lib dem voters know nothing about politics. I believe that quite a few do not but that some may do. I still don't know why people vote for them as a credible government though.

 

Well, thank you for saying that. And sorry for saying you said Lib Dems were retarded, that was Dune, but you were still very dismissive of Liberal Democrats in an arrogant manner in my opinion.

 

And I wasn't saying I have substantial life experience, although I obviously have some, and a lot of people's opinions are formed I think by childhood experiences.

 

I personally think that some 18 year olds have thought through their opinions a lot more than some 60 year olds, and of course it can be the other way too. A person can only form opinions based on their own judgement and experience and less experience in an area doesn't immediately mean they should be ignored.

[pap]

I never called you retarded, I simply said that in my opinion your views will change an awful lot when you have had time as an adult fending for yourself and that in my experience this is the case an awful lot of the time. Therefore your views whilst valid, come with this caveat.

 

You're proceeding from one hell of an assumption here, hypochondriac - that everyone at age eighteen was as underdeveloped as you were at that age. I'll leave that conundrum to the huddled masses of SaintsWeb.

 

If they're legally allowed to vote, then they're part of the political process, whether you like it or not.

[The Cat]

I take back what I said that lib dem voters know nothing about politics. I believe that quite a few do not but that some may do. I still don't know why people vote for them as a credible government though.

 

I think that most voters in general know nothing about politics. Probably only a small percentage of votes cast are by people who read the manifestos and make an informed decision.

[LGTL]

I never understand the bashing of some of the younger posters on here, especially on a thread like this. We should encourage them to be interested, it's a shame more of them aren't. It's strange because there is another 2 page thread rightly berating a 16 year old for disrespecting a war memorial...dammed if they do and dammed if they don't springs to mind!

[hypochondriac]

On that basis there's no point voting for UKIP or any other party except Labour or Tory because no one else has the clout to form a credible government.

 

Voting UKIP will put pressure on the two main parties over Europe so I can see the point. As I fail to see that the Lib Dems stand for anything meaningful, I still don't see the point.

[hypochondriac]

Shame is I've stood up for hypo before but he's being a judgemental little prat on this thread, let's hope he gets back to form.

 

I still think you're a good poster. Wish you would stop using words like prat etc. It's not particularly helpful and you're turning into some of those awful posters on the main board.

[Saintandy666]

Voting UKIP will put pressure on the two main parties over Europe so I can see the point. As I fail to see that the Lib Dems stand for anything meaningful, I still don't see the point.

 

In democracy, you should be able to vote for whoever you think most aligns with your views, whether that be UKIP, Conservative or indeed the Liberal Democrats. It shouldn't be meaningless or seen as meaningless. You're stating what you want to said and done at Westminster for the next 4/5 years.

[hypochondriac]

Well, thank you for saying that. And sorry for saying you said Lib Dems were retarded, that was Dune, but you were still very dismissive of Liberal Democrats in an arrogant manner in my opinion.

 

I am quite dismissive of them, but that's because of their views.

 

And I wasn't saying I have substantial life experience, although I obviously have some, and a lot of people's opinions are formed I think by childhood experiences.

 

Of course they are. Childhood is important but it's real world experience that gives you priorities, makes you see what is important in life and thus enables you to make more informed choices about things like politics. Its why people in their twenties look back at their teenage years and laugh about their views etc.

 

I personally think that some 18 year olds have thought through their opinions a lot more than some 60 year olds, and of course it can be the other way too. A person can only form opinions based on their own judgement and experience and less experience in an area doesn't immediately mean they should be ignored.

 

Again, I never said anyone should be ignored. I would be more inclined to listen to my grandfather, an intellectual who has been through a world war and has a ton of life experience when it comes to things like Europe than a teenager.

[hypochondriac]

In democracy, you should be able to vote for whoever you think most aligns with your views, whether that be UKIP, Conservative or indeed the Liberal Democrats. It shouldn't be meaningless or seen as meaningless. You're stating what you want to said and done at Westminster for the next 4/5 years.

 

That's all very nice but completely unrealistic. This is an example of how young people are too idealistic. Life isn't like that.

[hypochondriac]

I never understand the bashing of some of the younger posters on here, especially on a thread like this. We should encourage them to be interested, it's a shame more of them aren't. It's strange because there is another 2 page thread rightly berating a 16 year old for disrespecting a war memorial...dammed if they do and dammed if they don't springs to mind!

 

I think being inquisitive and interested in politics is fantastic. What I object to is the hint of 'knowitall' that pervades some of the young people on here. They are very opinionated which is fine (I certainly was at that age and still am) but I also accepted that I was still young and I respected those with more life experience than myself.

[pap]

That's all very nice but completely unrealistic. This is an example of how young people are too idealistic. Life isn't like that.

 

I think a point might have been missed here. Whether your candidate is returned or not, even if your preferred candidate has no realistic chance of winning, you are still expressing a true preference as to how you would like the country to be run. Those votes are counted and tallied, and can give an indication of public opinion.

 

What does being realistic entail, and how is it better than expressing your own true opinion?

[pap]

And way back on topic:-

 

Greece may leave euro, leaders admit.

 

Italy will be the next crisis. Their interest rate for borrowing is now 7%. The Greek crisis was triggered when their interest rates hit 7.5%.

[hypochondriac]

I think a point might have been missed here. Whether your candidate is returned or not, even if your preferred candidate has no realistic chance of winning, you are still expressing a true preference as to how you would like the country to be run. Those votes are counted and tallied, and can give an indication of public opinion.

 

What does being realistic entail, and how is it better than expressing your own true opinion?

 

Expressing your opinion is fine, but ultimately that has little bearing on anything. Far better IMO to vote if you think it will cause a change to policies within government. Voting UKIP keeps Europe on te agenda and pressures the main two parties into acting on it or face their voters deserting them. The Lib Dems do not present this same choice because IMO they don't stand for anything credible and meaningful. Voters said as much at the election and it's why Lib Dems didn't garner more votes, people were unsure what they really stood for. I could create a new party that expressed my views and voted so that there was one person who voted. It's not going to change anything.

Edited 4 November, 2011 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

And way back on topic:-

 

Greece may leave euro, leaders admit.

 

Italy will be the next crisis. Their interest rate for borrowing is now 7%. The Greek crisis was triggered when their interest rates hit 7.5%.

 

Fantastic news. Short term pain for long term gain. The sooner the failed Euro project collapses the better for everyone.

[Saintandy666]

That's all very nice but completely unrealistic. This is an example of how young people are too idealistic. Life isn't like that.

 

I hate to labour a point, and I know I do this on electoral reform... but it wouldn't be so unrealistic if we had PR. You'd know your vote counted towards an MP in parliament! Nearly everyone would have representation.

[hypochondriac]

I hate to labour a point, and I know I do this on electoral reform... but it wouldn't be so unrealistic if we had PR. You'd know your vote counted towards an MP in parliament! Nearly everyone would have representation.

 

It doesn't so it is unrealistic. No point discussing it, it's not going to be on the agenda again for years and years.

[Saintandy666]

It doesn't so it is unrealistic. No point discussing it, it's not going to be on the agenda again for years and years.

 

It doesn't matter if it won't be on the agenda for years. If people like me keep banging on about it, there is a chance that eventually it will squeeze its way back on to the agenda. But if we shut up for 25 years, well... it'll never get on the agenda.

[1976_Child]

Anti EU?

 

Yup. Got my vote.

 

And now what will UKIP do for the country?

 

.....

 

Nought. One cause party. And fine. It is the most important cause. Without sovereignty within our own borders we have nothing.

 

I will always vote for them in the European Elections. Farage is my MEP, voted by me and I like the man; a decent articulate statesman. A great voice for us in the corrupt nonsense which is the EU. Out of the EU. Full stop.

 

I vote Green in the council elections... B&H is (mostly) Green!!! Hurrah! We are proud to have the first Green MP. We need more localism, more locally grown food, a local currency, local resilience in the face of peak oil, a proper appreciation of the laws of thermodynamics and energy, adaption to the 21st century energy predicament which will invariably lead to LESS GLOBALISATION.

 

National... Stand up a proper left-wing national party which articulates these points. Then you can have my vote...

 

... (echo::::: '...did you hear that Mr, over-privileged, over-manicured, over-PR-perfected, over EU-obsessed, never had a real job, Milliband? Shall I say it our loud? OK. "WHEN A REAL LEFT-WING NATIONAL PARTY STANDS UP YOU CAN HAVE MY VOTE."

 

NEVER BEFORE. THE LABOUR PARTY IS ONLY A CRECHE FOR PASSERS-THROUGH ON THEIR WAY TO THEIR CAPITALIST MILLIONS. MILLIBAND WILL BE JUST THE SAME. HE CARES NOT A JOT ABOUT THE COUNTRY. HE IS WORSE THAN CAMERON. AT LEAST CAMERON DOESN'T PRETEND TO BE OTHER THAN POSH RICH UPPER CLASS TOFF.

 

HOW THE HELL DID WE EVER ALLOW OUR LABOUR PARTY TO BE HIJACKED BY THESE ****S?

Edited 4 November, 2011 by 1976_Child

[alpine_saint]

I honestly don't think the Lib Dems are going to get a sniff at a split in the next election. A few die-hards maybe, but this coalition has made them witting puppets of the Conservatives, and has destroyed their credibility. The only way I could see them getting a bump is if they said "we've been done over, boys and girls" and made a principled exit from the Government.

 

This is complete rubbish. If the Lib-Dems were to do that, after all the manifesto U-turns that have been made by both partners and a lingering perception that the Lib-Dems have done over Tory policy wildly over proportion to the acutal amount of seats they brought to the coallition, they will be viewed for the mealy-mouthed "Chris-Huhne-Club-of-power-for-its-own-sakes" that they really are.

[pap]

This is complete rubbish. If the Lib-Dems were to do that, after all the manifesto U-turns that have been made by both partners and a lingering perception that the Lib-Dems have done over Tory policy wildly over proportion to the acutal amount of seats they brought to the coallition, they will be viewed for the mealy-mouthed "Chris-Huhne-Club-of-power-for-its-own-sakes" that they really are.

 

I think you've made some interesting statements in isolation. The problem is that they are already viewed as "power for its own sake", and have always been about that. They tell people what they want to hear in the full knowledge that they'll never have to deliver. The problem for them is that this time, their bluffs have been well and truly called. They are ineffective, and have demonstrably abandoned their principles to stay in power with the Conservatives.

 

Either way, they are finished for a generation. At least by quitting on principle, they can pretend they still have some.

[hypochondriac]

I think you've made some interesting statements in isolation. The problem is that they are already viewed as "power for its own sake", and have always been about that. They tell people what they want to hear in the full knowledge that they'll never have to deliver. The problem for them is that this time, their bluffs have been well and truly called. They are ineffective, and have demonstrably abandoned their principles to stay in power with the Conservatives.

 

Either way, they are finished for a generation. At least by quitting on principle, they can pretend they still have some.

 

This is what I have been trying to say but you phrased it a lot more eloquently than I could. That is why I struggle with people voting lib dem, because this seems so obvious to myself and others.

[dune]

Fantastic news. Short term pain for long term gain. The sooner the failed Euro project collapses the better for everyone.

 

The trouble is we're heading into the unknown, but I quite agree that the euro has been a huge mistake and was only ever about creating a federal superstate through the back door.

[hypochondriac]

The trouble is we're heading into the unknown, but I quite agree that the euro has been a huge mistake and was only ever about creating a federal superstate through the back door.

 

I realise that but what is the alternative? Continue with the failed experiment? Ever closer political and economic ties? (because we all know that the only way that this will get even close to working is when we have a European superstate).i read an article last week that those countries who cannot afford all the bailout money will lose some

Voting rights an that strikes me as an extremely dangerous centralisation of power (which is the ultimate game of Europe anyway.)

 

Someone remarked that Merkel could possibly achieve through economic measures what Hitler tried to do by force. It's a worrying thought as we look to the future and it's why it would be best if the Euro Failed before this project goes too far and we can't turn back.

[pap]

This is what I have been trying to say but you phrased it a lot more eloquently than I could. That is why I struggle with people voting lib dem, because this seems so obvious to myself and others.

 

To be fair, hypo - it took a comparatively freakish election result for me to find that out. I used to have a lot of time for them, but no more.

[hypochondriac]

To be fair, hypo - it took a comparatively freakish election result for me to find that out. I used to have a lot of time for them, but no more.

 

People have been saying it for years. The election result just confirmed it.

[dune]

I realise that but what is the alternative? Continue with the failed experiment? Ever closer political and economic ties? (because we all know that the only way that this will get even close to working is when we have a European superstate).i read an article last week that those countries who cannot afford all the bailout money will lose some

Voting rights an that strikes me as an extremely dangerous centralisation of power (which is the ultimate game of Europe anyway.)

 

Someone remarked that Merkel could possibly achieve through economic measures what Hitler tried to do by force. It's a worrying thought as we look to the future and it's why it would be best if the Euro Failed before this project goes too far and we can't turn back.

 

 

Agree, i'm just being a selfish Tory with one eye on the Markets.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Lib/Dems have always been chancers, they fight Tory seats on the right and Labour seats on the left.

 

Clegg took a holier than thou stand over MP's expenses, yet a Lib/Dem had to resign within days of the coalition.

 

They signed this stupid tuition fee pledge, knowing full well it was meaningless. so it's good that they got their fingers burnt on it.

 

They still want us to join the Euro and are fanaticaly about Europe.

 

Personally, I think UKIP need to broaden their policies.I would like to see a devolved English parliament, a proper cap on immigration, real power given to local people & councils. Neither of the big 2 parties will deliver that I'm hoping that UKIP could start to talk about other things than Europe, because Farage talks a lot of sense on other issues as well.