Whats the point

[Raven on the wing]

Fully agree with the English Cup idea and have said the same myself although perhaps the other home Nations players could be included. To win such a Cup would mean something to the fans although our best English players might still be rested ? The problem last night was the lack of a central striker in Lamberts absence was highlighted again. Forte was totally ineffective - oh to have the likes of Jay- Rod for such matches etc. Good support last night but without changes the "League Cup" will become the JPT for top 2 tiers. Foreign players have the Champions league/ FA Cup etc so I cannot see that they would be bothered either way.

Edited 26 October, 2011 by Raven on the wing

[Cestrian Saint]

Why field a weakened side when you're in the last 16 of a competition? Surley that's the time to step things up a gear and field your strongest team with a view to going as far as possible. I'd be really ****ed off if I'd paid to travel to Selhurst Park.

[M271]

The place to give fringe players and young players an opportunity is in a proper reserve league. You all say everyone knew Saints and Palace would put out weakened sides and that everyone does it - this is why the Carling Cup has been devalued. It should NOT have been devalued. The top sides have huge squads with top players not getting games; the reserve set-up needs strengthening with better coverage and a cup competition with a prestige final.

 

Maybe it is time to make the Carling Cup a proper reserve competition and restrict the use of players in the later rounds who have played more than a certain number of first team league games.

 

I agree that the lack of a proper Reserve League is ONE of the reasons why Managers use the Carling Cup to try out fringe players. If these players were regularly playing competitive football their performance would be already known and give the players (fringe, injury returns and youngsters) more chance to get more fully match fit.

 

However other reasons include:

1) Only 5 on the subs bench restricting Managers options and experience for players during games, for example with a 7 man subs bench youngsters could be brought on if a game has been won i.e. 4 - 0 Watford and more players coming back from injury could be on the bench and brought if required.

2) Cramming so many matches in a short space of time and then having an International break which means that clubs don't play for 2 weeks, maybe International breaks should only be for the Premier League where they play less League matches anyway. Although I may not think this if we lose 3 or 4 first teamers to U18, U21 or other Internationals i.e. Lallana, Schneiderlin, Guly (Brasil !!), Fonte (Portugal !!)

[NickG]

A strange, but not surprising OP.

 

It is disappointing to go out at this stage of the cup but Adkins needs to be congratulated for his approach.

 

He stuck with his commitment to youth for the cup - it would have been easy to suddenly change his mind about using young or fringe players when seeing the potential to progress to the later stages.

 

He also has not allowed himself to be distracted from his priority - the league.

 

It is likely we would have got through with Lambert, first choice CBs etc - but he was not tempted and kept his eye on the weekend.

 

He openly said who he was playing.

 

Younger players need experience and testing.

 

It was the same for many clubs not just saints.

 

Sometimes you have to look hard to find a moan...but some will always manage.

[Alucard]

Ticketing prices across the competition reflect the weaker sides starting.

 

The last reserve game I went to was free not £15 + ticket tax.

I am just stunned that 2500 fans could be arsed to travel to Palace when a fixture containing the same players played at Palace's training ground as part of the old reserve league would have attracted 3 men and a dog

[um pahars]

As long as the club doesn,t moan when sub 10K crowds turn up for future early round cup games, so be it.

 

Or other supporters start to question your loyalty when you desist from attending a ressies match. I never bothered with Preston once both clubs said it would effectively be a reserve match.

 

Duncan is big enough (but not ugly enough) to defend himself, but it is laughable that a couple of the usual saddos pop out to have a dig, whilst a few others spectacularly miss the point.

 

Certainly didn't read it as an attack on the Club (the OP has been clarified further since), but instead a reasonable question of on the worth, or worthlessness of the League Cup. There is of course a question about how far "loyalty" can be stretched, but that is not the same as having a dig at the Club.

 

Given the fact that some clubs have started to water down their enthusiasm for the FA Cup, I think the League Cup is close to becoming fairly worthless. I would only have taken it serious if we were mid table of the Prem or Championship, with it having minimal impact on promotion or relegation.

 

Money has made the League the priority for every team, so unless someone can come up with a new format, new payday or a new idea (as others have mooted on here), then for me the League Cup is past it's sell by date.

 

Others have made valid points about the lack of a decent Combination League means some clubs view it as an alternatiive, which brings us back to the OP equating it to the Combination Cup.

 

I posted earlier that I had no problem fielding a weakened side (and even losing!!), so to be thinking and saying that makes me wonder what really was the point????

[Dr Who?]

When I saw the team I thought out we go them, but I think we put out a team that could have got a result. Would have been a tough game even with a first team, and would prefer them to be fresh for Saturday's top of the table clash.

 

Every team does the same thing. Still a good cup to win, and Palace gambled on putting out a strong team that could harm their promotion push!

[um pahars]

and Palace gambled on putting out a strong team that could harm their promotion push!

 

Palace made something like 8 changes to the starting line up against Ipswich!

[Leslie Charteris]

If we'd won I doubt this thread would have started. Nice to see some youngsters get a good run out in front of a proper crowd and if Jos and a few others play well on Saturday, it will explain why NA is in charge and why we don't have fans picking the team.

[MarkSFC]

Its an interesting view on the term reserves....

 

Of those who started last night for us, Cork, Morgan, Martin, Butterfield, and Harding have all started a league game this season or were a regular in our promotion winning side last season. Plus you have Bart who is a good player waiting patiently for his chance and SDR who has been great when coming off the bench and only 3 days earlier grabbed us a point!!. Of the other 4 Holmes is decent but injury prone, Ward-Prowse and Reeves are very promising Academy products, which leaves Forte who is in my estimation the only "real" reserve as he will never force his way in the team on pure merit when everyone is fit. The rest could. And then you have the "reserve" subs...Guly, Lambert and Barnard.

 

Get a grip whingers....we lost a game away from home in the last 20 mins.... which in the whole scheme of things will be forgotten very quickly!!

 

The ONLY thing that matters is getting promotion which will hopefully be this season.

 

Bring on the 'Boro wall.........

[skywalk750]

Surely this is a troll by the opening post?

 

Many negative remarks about his intelligence come to mind but whats the point. Hopefully next time we can field a full strength team for an important clash like this, trivial matters such as promotion need not bother our selection criteria.

 

In all seriousness though, this is a great way for young players to continue their development. Win, loss or draw fringe players and juniors need chances to grow, official games like this are perfect.

[astrasri]

Simply to support the team and have a night out at a venue that's fairly close to us maybe?

 

As it happens, we were not let down last night by our youngsters, more the performances put in by Butterfield, Harding, De Ridder and Forte. Those guys are all senior players with experience of the standard and were very poor indeed hence NA's comments about fringe players not doing themselves any favours.

 

You thought Butterfield was poor??????

[MatthewStiles]

The OP a troll? you're having a laugh aren't you? Never mind.

 

I would have liked to have seen a stronger side but considering we got Boro on Saturday I'll forgive the manager. It reminds me when the League Cup was sponsored by Worthington, people called it The Worthless Cup. Another point is that as far as I can tell most Euro leagues only have one cup competition and even then it tends to have a very low priority eg Copa del Rey in Spain.

[Toadhall Saint]

of spending good money to go to Selhurst Park, Swindon A, Torquay and PNE at home, etc if the club, at the end of the day, just treat it as a training exercise or a chance to blood youngsters who ordinarily would get nowhere near the 1st team. I fear fans are getting ripped off.

Genuine question.

A lot of travelling Saints supporters have spent good dosh to go to the Palace tonight but is it really worth it as the club (rightly or wrongly) don't seem too bothered about progressing.

 

The Carling Cup now resembles the 1960s Combination Cup and no one went away to watch those games.

 

Depends on if we win I suppose.

[aintforever]

It is a shame, getting to the quarter finals of the League Cup used to mean something. Now it's all about money so it doesn't matter.

 

We need to get promoted to get lots and lots of money, nothing else matters except money. That's why football today is sh!te.

[Window Cleaner]

It is a shame, getting to the quarter finals of the League Cup used to mean something. Now it's all about money so it doesn't matter.

 

We need to get promoted to get lots and lots of money, nothing else matters except money. That's why football today is sh!te.

 

And so we could have got to the quarters, it just needed a bit more gumption from the manager.All he needed to do was play

Guly and Reeves in the first half,bring on Barney at 60 and then Rickie if necessary at about 75.

What we didn't need to do was play that total waste of space for any time at all.He should have been loaned out to Yeovil or Oxford or wherever it is the we send our abject failures for the season.I really don't think any of the other lads from the U21s could have done any less.Where was Doble by the way?

[Village Saint]

I agree with Fitzhugh. Its just typical of the way this club is going. A fanontheboard would put a stop to this sort of thing.

 

Sadly a very good reason to not have one on the board. Definitely the right team selection. Shame we didn't get through so we could see these lads tested against a Prem side.

[ericb]

i went because it was a close game as i live in london and another away for the pompey game. Plus it's interesting to see what the young players are like. For what it's worth i thought Ward-Prowse didn't look out of place at all, a good sign, and Forte was absolute dross and should be got rid of at the first opportunity (also was it just me or has he put on three stone in weight?).

 

Also thought Morgan was decent to begin with but obviously stopped putting it in as the game went on. Butterfield was ok defensively but his crossing was shocking, i can't remember him beating the first man once.

 

Was good to see Barney back too and a great reception for him.

[saint1977]

Adkins had no choice but to make that number of changes as surely the priority is winning the Boro and P'boro games? We are depleted at CB and striker positions so we always had to protect key players (Fonte, Jos, Rickie) there until we can buy new players to help those key faces out in January. Good to see Barnie back at last and I'd wanted Forte to be given another run, he hasn't taken his opportunity and he may not get another. JWP and Reeves will have benefited from the experience but the main thing is that key players are fit and firing for Boro.

[Chez]

There is no point.

 

However if and when we get back up there is a point because we'll be where we want to be and the cups are our only chance of silverware.

fair point, but that means I don't want to hear that often used line of `we must focus on staying up' by Saints if and when we get promoted. Once up you will have your best team for years and therefore best chance of winning the thing.

[COMEONYOUREDS]

Grow up Duncan. How are you meant to give fringe players a chance if not in these games. The league is our priority and you don't have to go to every game. It was advertised that youngsters would be playing, and in fact the players that let us down were Harding, Butterfield, Cork, Forte and De Ridder - senior players. On another night we would've won, I think we dominated the game, were unlucky and at £15 i thought it was an ejoyable evening and worth it. I suppose if we had got a result you would've started this thread regardless? No, thought not.

 

I don't understand why some people who, because they go to every game think they should have a say over team selection

Edited 26 October, 2011 by COMEONYOUREDS

[Dr Who?]

When the games come thick and fast like this, it is good to rest the first team players and give the youngters a bash.

 

We have all be saying how hard October is, and if this game was in November then perhaps a stronger team could have been put out on the field.

 

Derby - away - Sat

West Ham - Home - Tuesday

Reading - away - Sat

 

Palace - cup - Tuesday

 

Boro - Saturday

Peterbough - Tuesday

 

That is a tough enough run without the Cup game!!!!

 

with

[um pahars]

Adkins had no choice

 

Adkins had a choice and IMHO he made the right one!!!!!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Grow up Duncan. How are you meant to give fringe players a chance if not in these games. The league is our priority and you don't have to go to every game. It was advertised that youngsters would be playing, and in fact the players that let us down were Harding, Butterfield, Cork, Forte and De Ridder - senior players. On another night we would've won, I think we dominated the game, were unlucky and at £15 i thought it was an ejoyable evening and worth it. I suppose if we had got a result you would've started this thread regardless? No, thought not.

 

I don't understand why some people who, because they go to every game think they should have a say over team selection

 

What on earth do you mean Grow Up. Sorry I am giving off a reasonable opinion I would have thought. Yes fringe players do benefit as things stand - that is good BUT and here is the rub and the point of my post

Fringe players will only benefit if the fixture means something and if the clubs continue to undermine the competition it will quickly become anything but beneficial.

I understand what NA did last night and of course the Boro game is more important and players have got to be protected from exhaustion and injury but that being the case let's just scrub this competion because it has become devalued.

And for the record I don't think we should have a fan on the board but ironically ever since we became a limited company in 1898 the board has had "fans" on the board with the main qualification being wealth and in some cases expertise in the financial world. Rather ironic that Manji was not complaining then.

I don't know why people have to get personal when a view is expressed on here - just because you don't like or even understand where I am coming from surely doesn't entitle you to make personal remarks?

[COMEONYOUREDS]

What on earth do you mean Grow Up. Sorry I am giving off a reasonable opinion I would have thought. Yes fringe players do benefit as things stand - that is good BUT and here is the rub and the point of my post

Fringe players will only benefit if the fixture means something and if the clubs continue to undermine the competition it will quickly become anything but beneficial.

I understand what NA did last night and of course the Boro game is more important and players have got to be protected from exhaustion and injury but that being the case let's just scrub this competion because it has become devalued.

And for the record I don't think we should have a fan on the board but ironically ever since we became a limited company in 1898 the board has had "fans" on the board with the main qualification being wealth and in some cases expertise in the financial world. Rather ironic that Manji was not complaining then.

I don't know why people have to get personal when a view is expressed on here - just because you don't like or even understand where I am coming from surely doesn't entitle you to make personal remarks?

 

Oh come on, hardly a personal remark. Your opening post reads like a baby who just spat his dummy out. I do see where you're coming from, but this competition has been this way for years and thats just the way it is, and its not going to change

[Sour Mash]

The O/P has got a point. What is the point of the Carling Cup? It needs a kill or cure solution? Either reinvigorate it, come up with enough of a reason for it to be taken seriously by all and make games a worthwhile experience or just get rid of it full stop. Ridiculous having a competition that the majority of clubs seem more than happy to be knocked out of at the earliest opportunity.

[Son of Bob]

I think the line has been clearly drawn across the board with the League Cup. It should come as no surprise to anyone that clubs play weakened sides in this competition as it's quite publicly become 'The Reserves Cup'. It started with only the biggest clubs fielding weakened teams but now that is filtering down to the Championship sides and beyond.

 

Is this a bad thing or is this 'tradition' of fielding teams of youngsters and fringe players actually a positive? That's another argument for another day!

[Saint_clark]

And so we could have got to the quarters, it just needed a bit more gumption from the manager.All he needed to do was play

Guly and Reeves in the first half,bring on Barney at 60 and then Rickie if necessary at about 75.

What we didn't need to do was play that total waste of space for any time at all.He should have been loaned out to Yeovil or Oxford or wherever it is the we send our abject failures for the season.I really don't think any of the other lads from the U21s could have done any less.Where was Doble by the way?

 

Yeah, if he'd done that we'd have definitely won. Because football is really that clear cut.

[shurlock]

I got the impression that the league cup managed to halt or reverse some of its decline in recent years - basically, as premiership teams have deepened their squads, the cup is a good opportunity to keep people happy; at the same time, cup has become a niche for some of the bigger sides -not one that need to focus on avoiding relegation but ones that cannot keep up with the growing gulf at the very top - before making the champions league, spurs always took the cup seriously. So did villa and a number of other teams.

[Dig Dig]

for those complaining about the team selection last night, I wonder what the response would be if we had played the first team and then lost on Saturday with the players looking tired and jaded?

 

damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Joensuu]

heres a radical idea. Why not rebrand the competition as the 'English Cup' and make it that clubs may only play 'English qualified' players? This will help develop our nations players quicker, possibly encourage clubs to focus more on english players, and also fans would have a much better expectation of who was playing and the quality to be expected. And yes it would mean more kids and probably a lower quality overall but at least it would aid the national teams.

 

Nice idea... but what would Cardiff and Swansea do?

[um pahars]

Am I rewriting history or did we play close to our strongest team in the JPT????

 

Have to say I enjoyed those games, but this season's League Cup hasn't excited me at all (although a win last night and a home tie against a "big" team in the last eight or an easy route to the semis and I might be saying something different!!!!)

[trousers]

The place to give fringe players and young players an opportunity is in a proper reserve league.

 

I partially disagree. Despite how most clubs treat the tournament, the League Cup is a step up from a reserve game. These guys need to experience the atmosphere at these type of game and not just the sterile atmosphere of a reserve game. Ok, yes, you'll never get the same high octane atmosphere at a League Cup game compared to a high profile league game but it's a step up none-the-less.

[trousers]

for those complaining about the team selection last night, I wonder what the response would be if we had played the first team and then lost on Saturday with the players looking tired and jaded?

 

damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

Nail upon head

 

(IMHO of course)

[trousers]

The O/P has got a point. What is the point of the Carling Cup? It needs a kill or cure solution? Either reinvigorate it, come up with enough of a reason for it to be taken seriously by all and make games a worthwhile experience or just get rid of it full stop. Ridiculous having a competition that the majority of clubs seem more than happy to be knocked out of at the earliest opportunity.

 

Adkins wasn't happy about being knocked out last night. He expected to win and was disappointed that we didn't. It looked like genuine disappointment on the post match interview on Saints Player.

[Sour Mash]

Adkins wasn't happy about being knocked out last night. He expected to win and was disappointed that we didn't. It looked like genuine disappointment on the post match interview on Saints Player.

Adkins is very good at playing it right in-front of a camera (nothing wrong with that), but no matter what he says or how he "looks", the team selectiona nd overall performance says more about how bothered we were about the comp than any interview might. Most clubs seem happy to get knocked out. The competition is slowly dying and it's a pity.

[Window Cleaner]

Adkins wasn't happy about being knocked out last night. He expected to win and was disappointed that we didn't. It looked like genuine disappointment on the post match interview on Saints Player.

 

Can't win games with the sort of firepower we had on display, unless of course he expected goals from De Ridder.

Last summer we were running after a whole host of 3/4/5 million £ strikers if you believe rumour and the popular press.Didn't sign any of them so our league front line is Lambert and Connolly,when they're gone what have we left ?? f/all that's what.How he expected us to win last night amazes me.We have a striking crisis now, Rickie OK even if there are a few penalties on his counter but the others just aren't performing...which is why we were willing to pay 5 million £ for a striker just 2 months ago i guess.

[trousers]

Sorry I am giving off a reasonable opinion I would have thought. Yes fringe players do benefit as things stand - that is good BUT and here is the rub and the point of my post

Fringe players will only benefit if the fixture means something and if the clubs continue to undermine the competition it will quickly become anything but beneficial.

I understand what NA did last night and of course the Boro game is more important and players have got to be protected from exhaustion and injury but that being the case let's just scrub this competion because it has become devalued.

 

I agree with that train of thought FF. If the "decline" in the tournament continues there will become a time where the atmosphere and intensity of the game isn't very far removed from a sterile reserve game. I don't think we're at that point yet (a c.11k attendance last night is testament to that) but when we get to that point in 'x' number of years, yes, it could well end up as "pointless" (from a competitive point of view) as reserve games at which point it will be time to agree with where you're coming from. As things stand, I still think there is value (albeit diminishing) in fielding a fringe side in this tournament.

[The9]

of spending good money to go to Selhurst Park, Swindon A, Torquay and PNE at home, etc if the club, at the end of the day, just treat it as a training exercise or a chance to blood youngsters who ordinarily would get nowhere near the 1st team. I fear fans are getting ripped off.

Genuine question.

A lot of travelling Saints supporters have spent good dosh to go to the Palace tonight but is it really worth it as the club (rightly or wrongly) don't seem too bothered about progressing.

 

The Carling Cup now resembles the 1960s Combination Cup and no one went away to watch those games.

 

I knew what kind of sides we'd be putting out and I chose not to go to any of those matches.

 

Anyone who went last night got to see James Ward-Prowse's debut, which in the future MIGHT be something worth talking about. Just as you don't know what the result will be when you turn up.

 

Also, £15 a ticket ? Pays your money and takes your choice.

 

In the context of not just Middlesbrough on Saturday but Peterborough on Tuesday too I wouldn't have expected anything else.

[trousers]

Can't win games with the sort of firepower we had on display

 

Fair point. I think that was the one hole in last night's approach to the game. Adkins admitted as much himself in the post match interview.

 

That said, we ended up losing due to a couple of errors at the back, not due to a lack of firepower up front (yes, the lack of the latter makes it difficult to win, but isn't the reason for a defeat per se)

[Window Cleaner]

Fair point. I think that was the one hole in last night's approach to the game. Adkins admitted as much himself in the post match interview.

 

That said, we ended up losing due to a couple of errors at the back, not due to a lack of firepower up front (yes, the lack of the latter makes it difficult to win, but isn't the reason for a defeat per se)

 

Out of interest here's our first round team

 

Bialkowski

12 Butterfield

16 Martin

23 Dickson

25 Seaborne

04 Schneiderlin

10 Guly (Forte 78)

18 Chaplow

24 Holmes (Lallana 70)

33 De Ridder (Hammond 70)

07 Lambert

 

Were'nt taking the p*ss then were we.

[Sour Mash]

Out of interest here's our first round team

 

Bialkowski

12 Butterfield

16 Martin

23 Dickson

25 Seaborne

04 Schneiderlin

10 Guly (Forte 78)

18 Chaplow

24 Holmes (Lallana 70)

33 De Ridder (Hammond 70)

07 Lambert

 

Were'nt taking the p*ss then were we.

Exactly -that's what I've been banging on about - most team's start playing stronger teams as they progress, not weaker. Guess we maybe now realise we have a good chance of promotion, better than expected at the start. Or maybe recent games have taken a serious toll on the squad and it's struggling to cope with league games, let alone midweek cup matches.

[shurlock]

Out of interest here's our first round team

 

Bialkowski

12 Butterfield

16 Martin

23 Dickson

25 Seaborne

04 Schneiderlin

10 Guly (Forte 78)

18 Chaplow

24 Holmes (Lallana 70)

33 De Ridder (Hammond 70)

07 Lambert

 

Were'nt taking the p*ss then were we.

 

Exactly, the second round team wasn't too shabby either with Lallana et al. starting. No complaints we put out the team we did yesterday - but I do think it was a U-turn and an enforced response and possibly something that NA hadn't planned or anticipated.

[Window Cleaner]

Exactly, the second round team wasn't too shabby either with Lallana et al. starting. No complaints we put out the team we did yesterday - but I do think it was a U-turn and an enforced response and possibly something that NA hadn't planned or anticipated.

 

As I said,we should have gone the whole hog and not inflicted this calvary on first team players, Cork,Morgan,De Ridder,Martin and Harding.

 

Wouldn't have given a toss about that.Brave show from the youngsters would have been worth seeing.

[Dig Dig]

Am I rewriting history or did we play close to our strongest team in the JPT????

Have to say I enjoyed those games, but this season's League Cup hasn't excited me at all (although a win last night and a home tie against a "big" team in the last eight or an easy route to the semis and I might be saying something different!!!!)

 

We did play a strong side but that is a requirement of the competition. Clubs have to field at least 6 or so players who played in the last league game. There is no such requirement for the league cup

[Lets B Avenue]

Am I rewriting history or did we play close to our strongest team in the JPT????

 

Didn't do Pardew much good in the long run.

[Leicestersaint]

Out of interest here's our first round team

 

Bialkowski

12 Butterfield

16 Martin

23 Dickson

25 Seaborne

04 Schneiderlin

10 Guly (Forte 78)

18 Chaplow

24 Holmes (Lallana 70)

33 De Ridder (Hammond 70)

07 Lambert

 

Were'nt taking the p*ss then were we.

 

I think this is the sort of team we should have put out at Palace. NA made a real mistake I think.

[Thedelldays]

I think this is the sort of team we should have put out at Palace. NA made a real mistake I think.

so how do JWP reeves, etc all get a game..?

[Window Cleaner]

so how do JWP reeves, etc all get a game..?

 

they don't, they get 30 minutes at the end. Now let me see did Ox have trouble getting a game or Theo or an 18 year old Morgan or an 18 year old Cork...nope don't remember that.If you're good enough, you're old enough.

 

Zaha is 17, he's a starter at Palace.

Edited 26 October, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[Fitzhugh Fella]

We did play a strong side but that is a requirement of the competition. Clubs have to field at least 6 or so players who played in the last league game. There is no such requirement for the league cup

 

That's interesting I did not know that.

Of course if they suddenly announced that the winners of the League Cup automatically got a Champions League place things might change a bit.