derry Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 Notice how the MP's for Winch and Romsey voted in favour. Very wise in such marginal seats. I will be urging my party not to fight these seats as I believe they acted decently. It needs UKIP to target all the MPs regardless of party who voted against, it would concentrate a lot of minds. In the end it will make no difference the European dream will collapse anyway, these political alliances always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 It needs UKIP to target all the MPs regardless of party who voted against, it would concentrate a lot of minds. In the end it will make no difference the European dream will collapse anyway, these political alliances always do. So why are the CBI and businesses (in the main) so pro EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 I still think most people are bloody fickle and when it comes to the election they will either vote exactly the way they always have down tribal lines, or based on whether they and their family have a job and an alright life. I don't think most people care about Europe that much at all. When people are questioned about what issues matter to them, it doesn't even come in the top 10 nationwide. Of course a few people might switch, but it won't make much difference in this voting system, and a lot will pussy out due to tactical voting. Also, remember that people, politically, have short memories often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 26 October, 2011 Share Posted 26 October, 2011 So why are the CBI and businesses (in the main) so pro EU? Probably because it confers so many advantages. For the price of a bit of red tape, they get to enjoy the benefits of the internal market, whether its free trade or access to a massive labour market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 There are good arguments for and against being in the EU. Problem is given a referendum the British public will vote no just because they don't like Europeans. We have an Island mentality and have more affinity with far flung places like the US and Ausralia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 There are good arguments for and against being in the EU. Problem is given a referendum the British public will vote no just because they don't like Europeans. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking Europeans and everything to do with Parliamentry accountablility. Just a small example, but look at the new legislation regarding temp workers. My firm will no longer be using temps, and we did use a number at various times during the year. The upshot of this is that between 10-20 people, many of which want the flexibility of temp work, will lose work at our place. Some people may think that despite this the temp workers new rules are good. The fact is they were imposed on this country, our MP's didn't get a vote on it, therefore who is accountable at the ballot box, for me to voice my displeasure? Nobody should be able to impose rules and regulations without being accountable to the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 It has nothing to do with liking or not liking Europeans and everything to do with Parliamentry accountablility. Just a small example, but look at the new legislation regarding temp workers. My firm will no longer be using temps, and we did use a number at various times during the year. The upshot of this is that between 10-20 people, many of which want the flexibility of temp work, will lose work at our place. Some people may think that despite this the temp workers new rules are good. The fact is they were imposed on this country, our MP's didn't get a vote on it, therefore who is accountable at the ballot box, for me to voice my displeasure? Nobody should be able to impose rules and regulations without being accountable to the people. That's you though. The point made, that many would vote to get out because of historical views regarding France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc are very valid in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 The fact is they were imposed on this country, our MP's didn't get a vote on it, therefore who is accountable at the ballot box, for me to voice my displeasure? Nobody should be able to impose rules and regulations without being accountable to the people. Presumably your MEP voted on it. He's accountable to the electorate (although we seem to hear very little from them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 That's you though. The point made, that many would vote to get out because of historical views regarding France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc are very valid in my experience. You cant deny people a vote just because they're idiots or bigots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 Presumably your MEP voted on it. He's accountable to the electorate (although we seem to hear very little from them). It was a directive from the European Commission, which is an unelected body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 You cant deny people a vote just because they're idiots or bigots. Quite right. We should not exclude Conservative voters from the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 27 October, 2011 Share Posted 27 October, 2011 It was a directive from the European Commission, which is an unelected body. If you actually looked into it (an unusual act I grant you but) you will see that directives from the European Commission need to be approved by the European parliament. The commission is the source of the laws but they need to be passed by the council and the parliament before they become legally enforceable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission The Commission differs from the other institutions in that it alone has legislative initiative in the European Union, meaning only the Commission can make formal proposals for legislation ... Once legislation is passed by the Council and Parliament, it is the Commission's responsibility to ensure it is implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 Amazing, really. Following Monday's debate, it now appears that those countries in the Eurozone are going for tighter integration. Given this major change in the makeup of the EU, will Cameron and co give us a referendum when the plans are finalised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 Amazing, really. Following Monday's debate, it now appears that those countries in the Eurozone are going for tighter integration. Given this major change in the makeup of the EU, will Cameron and co give us a referendum when the plans are finalised? nope. BUT it does sound as if Cameron is taking "Leadership" of "The Other 10" to actually fight them with a bit more ammunition. Could be fairly quick that other "Ignored Electorates" start to take their own actions as Elections rush near in France It's more possible that there could be a real split than UK needing a Referendum. The debate could start to swing towards what the EU should be about after the luvvie "come on in fest" of Euro Entry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 If you actually looked into it (an unusual act I grant you but) you will see that directives from the European Commission need to be approved by the European parliament. The commission is the source of the laws but they need to be passed by the council and the parliament before they become legally enforceable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission So if I read the wiki quote right our elected representative can only vote on topic proposed by the unelected representatives, and are unable to put forward their own legislation that we, the electorate, might actually want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 So if I read the wiki quote right our elected representative can only vote on topic proposed by the unelected representatives, and are unable to put forward their own legislation that we, the electorate, might actually want. Though the commission are the only group that can propose laws it almost certain that they take into account what they think the parliament would agree with otherwise they would not get things passed. It's not like the commission live in a locked room and pass directives under the door there is always going to be a degree of formal and informal communication and cooperation between them. Actually if you the electorate feel strongly enough you can start a petition and if you get enough people to sign it they will think about it (remind you of something...). Who would you suggest proposed the european laws? The largest group in the european parliament, country leaders, mass referendum's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 Amazing, really. Following Monday's debate, it now appears that those countries in the Eurozone are going for tighter integration. Given this major change in the makeup of the EU, will Cameron and co give us a referendum when the plans are finalised? Listening to to blurb they are going to get around this by "tweaking" Lisbon, thus removing the need for referendums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 Listening to to blurb they are going to get around this by "tweaking" Lisbon, thus removing the need for referendums. The interesting thing is, Labour would have gotten away with this, because the modern party has never really been anti-EU. How disenfranchised must Tory voters be at the moment? Lied to again and again by the people who are supposed to be looking out for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 The interesting thing is, Labour would have gotten away with this, because the modern party has never really been anti-EU. How disenfranchised must Tory voters be at the moment? Lied to again and again by the people who are supposed to be looking out for them. As I've said before, the tories in Westminster are under the thumb of The City and big business and therefore have very little wiggle room. By all accounts IDS went nuts and considering resigning but even he bottled out. So much for principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 Listening to to blurb they are going to get around this by "tweaking" Lisbon, thus removing the need for referendums. This is exactly what will happen and it will keep on happenening. We will never be given a vote on any European issue if the Establishment have their way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 28 October, 2011 Share Posted 28 October, 2011 Though the commission are the only group that can propose laws it almost certain that they take into account what they think the parliament would agree with otherwise they would not get things passed. It's not like the commission live in a locked room and pass directives under the door there is always going to be a degree of formal and informal communication and cooperation between them. Actually if you the electorate feel strongly enough you can start a petition and if you get enough people to sign it they will think about it (remind you of something...). Who would you suggest proposed the european laws? The largest group in the european parliament, country leaders, mass referendum's? To answer your question - no one - or actually that should read Westminster. I am all for a common market for trade, but we should leave it at that, leave the law making to the individual states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 8 November, 2011 Author Share Posted 8 November, 2011 3.45 k/o today for round 2. BBC Parliament should be worth a watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 8 November, 2011 Share Posted 8 November, 2011 3.45 k/o today for round 2. BBC Parliament should be worth a watch. May well chuck that on in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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