EU debate k/o 4.30

[dune]

I will be watching this with interest. Cameron has made a major error of judgement by appeasing Guardian readers and ignoring his core supporters on this one. I applaud those Tories who will defy the three line party whip, and clearly we won't get a say as the motion will be easily defeated. However this issue will not go away and today will be a good day for the UKIP and a bad day for the Conservative Party. UKIP's support will continue to strengthen and the Tories will never again be in a position to form a majority government until they win back the voters they are losing to the UKIP. UKIP are very powerful in the marginals that the Tories need in that they are preventing the necessary gains and this will, IMHO, eventually force the likes of Cameron and his poodles out of a party they do not belong in.

[dune]

Oh god, i'm watching bbc parliament now and that annoying nerd aka Millibean is speaking.

 

Wish he would shut up as his voice really grates with me.

[Deano6]

Can we rename this thread "Dune's inner monologue"?

 

Others can contribute.

[Saintandy666]

I don't think he is appeasing Guardian readers. I just think he is sensibly recognising that now isn't the time for this referendum. The Referendum should of course happen soon, but not when the whole of Europe is standing on the edge of financial oblivion.

[Colinjb]

Now may not be the most sensible of times for a referendum but this is an issue that many, many of the general public are wanting discussed. The government's first calling is to serve it's people so it's quite right that it should be debated.

[dune]

I don't think he is appeasing Guardian readers. I just think he is sensibly recognising that now isn't the time for this referendum. The Referendum should of course happen soon, but not when the whole of Europe is standing on the edge of financial oblivion.

 

And why not? Are you one of these people (like Cameron) that doesn't believe in giving people a democratic say because the odds aren't right?

 

It's because of this attitude towards voters that politicians are hated so much now.

[Saintandy666]

And why not? Are you one of these people (like Cameron) that doesn't believe in giving people a democratic say because the odds aren't right?

 

It's because of this attitude towards voters that politicians are hated so much now.

 

In our delegate-based representative democracy, there's no actual need to have referendums. If you like them so much, you should support a move towards a Switzerland based system, or one like in the US. In our system parliament isn't there to serve and do exactly as the people say, but to use their own judgement as to what is best in the national interest. Like it or loathe it, that's our system.

 

But anyways, of course there should be a Referendum, I think before this parliament is out(and I will vote to stay in), but not now... not when the crisis is as it is.

[bridge too far]

And why not? Are you one of these people (like Cameron) that doesn't believe in giving people a democratic say because the odds aren't right?

 

It's because of this attitude towards voters that politicians are hated so much now.

 

Far be it for me to defend Dave, but the Coalition agreement included a clause saying that there would be a Referendum IF the constitution of the EU changed. It hasn't. Within our own consititution, according to William Vague, there isn't the instrument for a referendum just because a number of people have signed a petition.

[Saintandy666]

I hate to support Dave, but he just used a good analogy. He said you shouldn't 'walk away from burning buildings'. Put the fire out first, then deal with the our future in the EU.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Cameron is more interested in power than principles over this.

 

The Euro realists are between a rock and a hard place and he knows this. UKIP will never form a Govt and Labour and Lib/Dems are obsessed with handing more power over to the EU(Milliband even refuses to rule out ever joining the Euro, just says it will be "very hard to see").Therefore Cameron can grandstand over this and not give the opposition the chance to portray him as "right wing" over Europe. It is a stragey perfected by Tony Blair, appeal to the centre and upset your core support as they've nowhere else to go.Tony Blair picked a fight with the left of his party, to appear reasonable and Cameron will do the same over Europe.

 

The biggest hypercrites over this are the Lib/Dems, whose maneifesto included an in/out vote and yet are voting against this motion.

 

The party machines and the establishment will ensure the British people never get a vote on Europe. I remember the original vote, where politicans were allowed to vote for which ever side they wanted. Joining forces with political foes, and then going back to their "day jobs", either in opposition or Govt. Now vote against the party line over Europe, and your career's over.

[Saintandy666]

Cameron is more interested in power than principles over this.

 

The Euro realists are between a rock and a hard place and he knows this. UKIP will never form a Govt and Labour and Lib/Dems are obsessed with handing more power over to the EU(Milliband even refuses to rule out ever joining the Euro, just says it will be "very hard to see").Therefore Cameron can grandstand over this and not give the opposition the chance to portray him as "right wing" over Europe. It is a stragey perfected by Tony Blair, appeal to the centre and upset your core support as they've nowhere else to go.Tony Blair picked a fight with the left of his party, to appear reasonable and Cameron will do the same over Europe.

 

The biggest hypercrites over this are the Lib/Dems, whose maneifesto included an in/out vote and yet are voting against this motion.

 

The party machines and the establishment will ensure the British people never get a vote on Europe. I remember the original vote, where politicans were allowed to vote for which ever side they wanted. Joining forces with political foes, and then going back to their "day jobs", either in opposition or Govt. Now vote against the party line over Europe, and your career's over.

 

In fairness, that was negotiated out in the coalition agreement.

 

I don't understand why people don't want us to be in Europe, influencing the spectrum of our continent as opposed to an irrelevance on the side. Isolationism doesn't work! Look what happened to the US when they tried to pursue that in the 1920's.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Far be it for me to defend Dave, but the Coalition agreement included a clause saying that there would be a Referendum IF the constitution of the EU changed. It hasn't. Within our own consititution, according to William Vague, there isn't the instrument for a referendum just because a number of people have signed a petition.

 

But they then started this rule that if X amount of people demanded a debate, then one should be held. The Lib/Dems called for an in/out vote, so it's bizzare that they are oppossing this, particulary as it's no chance of winning.

 

There is one reason and one reason only that there will never be a vote on Europe, and that's because they're worried that the British people will vote against.

[dune]

It is a stragey perfected by Tony Blair, appeal to the centre and upset your core support as they've nowhere else to go.

 

The biggest hypercrites over this are the Lib/Dems, whose maneifesto included an in/out vote and yet are voting against this motion.

 

UKIP is where you go. At the last election the party won enough votes in marginals to keep the Tory candidate out and their vote will increase now. Of course you'll get those who grin and bear it and vote Tory to stop Labour, but an increasing number will not vote tactically and will vote UIKP.

 

Cameron has well and truely hammered a nail into the partys coffin over this and if the economy doesn't improve dramatically he'll pay dearly in 2015 as votes are haemoraged both left and right.

 

As for the Liberals they got their vote on AV and that is all they are bothered about.

 

P.S this debate is not about AV so please don't bore us with your waffle Andy.

[Lord Duckhunter]

In fairness, that was negotiated out in the coalition agreement.

 

I don't understand why people don't want us to be in Europe, influencing the spectrum of our continent as opposed to an irrelevance on the side. Isolationism doesn't work! Look what happened to the US when they tried to pursue that in the 1920's.

 

 

For or against we should be asked. We were asked whether to remain in a Common Market, this is a whole lot more than a common market, and yet we've not been given a say. Powers have been signed away, and we've had no say in it. In hundreds of years historians will look back and wonder just how it was allowed to happen.

[Saintandy666]

UKIP is where you go. At the last election the party won enough votes in marginals to keep the Tory candidate out and their vote will increase now. Of course you'll get those who grin and bear it and vote Tory to stop Labour, but an increasing number will not vote tactically and will vote UIKP.

 

Cameron has well and truely hammered a nail into the partys coffin over this and if the economy doesn't improve dramatically he'll pay dearly in 2015 as votes are haemoraged both left and right.

 

As for the Liberals they got their vote on AV and that is all they are bothered about.

 

P.S this debate is not about AV so please don't bore us with your waffle Andy.

 

I wasn't about to even reply!

 

Aren't you worried that if more vote UKIP(and I don't think they will, because when push comes to shove because of FPTP they will vote Tory), that Labour(and maybe Lib Dems in coalition???) will get in because of the split right-wing vote?

[Lord Duckhunter]

UKIP is where you go. At the last election the party won enough votes in marginals to keep the Tory candidate out and their vote will increase now. Of course you'll get those who grin and bear it and vote Tory to stop Labour, but an increasing number will not vote tactically and will vote UIKP.

 

.

 

Do you really not get it?

 

If enough vote UKIP to keep the Torys out, the end result will be a pro European Labour Govt. How on earth does that help the cause of the Euro realists?

[View From The Top]

I'm one of these who wants a referendum on Europe, with the out, in and change options but now really isn't the time IMHO.

 

Get the Euro stabilised and then have a full and open debate and a proper referendum.

 

Part of Dave's problem is that he's taken the City's pieces of silver and the City wants to be in Europe.

[Saintandy666]

Do you really not get it?

 

If enough vote UKIP to keep the Torys out, the end result will be a pro European Labour Govt. How on earth does that help the cause of the Euro realists?

 

A problem the Left-Wing vote has had for years being split between Lib Dems and Labour.

[View From The Top]

Do you really not get it?

 

If enough vote UKIP to keep the Torys out, the end result will be a pro European Labour Govt. How on earth does that help the cause of the Euro realists?

 

There is a very large swathe of the Labour movement who would like to see us out of Europe, or in my case, in but on different terms.

 

Same way that not every tory is anti Europe.

[Saintandy666]

For or against we should be asked. We were asked whether to remain in a Common Market, this is a whole lot more than a common market, and yet we've not been given a say. Powers have been signed away, and we've had no say in it. In hundreds of years historians will look back and wonder just how it was allowed to happen.

 

Well, technically we have had a say, because we elect the government to make decisions on our behalf.

 

But yes, we should have a referendum at some point and I will proudly vote yes(to stay in) to avoid us a disaster.

[CB Saint]

In fairness, that was negotiated out in the coalition agreement.

 

I don't understand why people don't want us to be in Europe, influencing the spectrum of our continent as opposed to an irrelevance on the side. Isolationism doesn't work! Look what happened to the US when they tried to pursue that in the 1920's.

 

Hasn't hurt switzerland.

 

This is not about isolationism (although given Sarkozy's comments I think we may already be there). Europe was supposed to be about reducing barriers to trade, that is what I would like us to return to, without ceding rafts of legislative powers to Brussels. At the end of the day there are too many polarised national interests to ever make the EU work properly. The Euro is a great example of that.

[hypochondriac]

I don't think he is appeasing Guardian readers. I just think he is sensibly recognising that now isn't the time for this referendum. The Referendum should of course happen soon, but not when the whole of Europe is standing on the edge of financial oblivion.

 

But holding a referendum is never going to happen as it's not what any party wants. I'm glad it's still being pushed on the agenda and those discontented with Europe are not going to disappear until they get what they want.

[dune]

Do you really not get it?

 

If enough vote UKIP to keep the Torys out, the end result will be a pro European Labour Govt. How on earth does that help the cause of the Euro realists?

 

I get it, but if that's what it takes to force the Tories back to the right then so be it. It won't be a nice period but it is essential if we want to get a choice between parties back and not this bland middle ground blur. New Labour V Blue Labour.

 

I'm sure many Labour supporters would also be willing to make sacrifices to put their party back to the left!

Edited 24 October, 2011 by dune

[ecuk268]

This is a like a replay of the 90's with Major's government.

 

Economy going down the tubes, unemployment rising, inflation rising and all the Tories can do is squabble about Europe when they must know that their leadership would never bring us out, as their big-business backers wouldn't let them.

[dune]

Well, technically we have had a say, because we elect the government to make decisions on our behalf.

 

But yes, we should have a referendum at some point and I will proudly vote yes(to stay in) to avoid us a disaster.

 

When you say WE do you mean people old enough to vote and therefore not YOU?

[hypochondriac]

Well, technically we have had a say, because we elect the government to make decisions on our behalf.

 

But yes, we should have a referendum at some point and I will proudly vote yes(to stay in) to avoid us a disaster.

 

But erm no we have had no say. No party who were capable of forming a government have been against handing these powers to Europe, so just who should we have been voting for?

[dune]

Who is that dopey looking Tory with the Yellow (obviously dyed) hair and pink tie sitting there nodding like a spastic?

[dune]

What really sicken me is all the Conservative MP's who are going to vote against a referendum because it'll help their promotion chances. Career politicians with no conviction the lot of them.

[Saintandy666]

But erm no we have had no say. No party who were capable of forming a government have been against handing these powers to Europe, so just who should we have been voting for?

 

UKIP... or start your own party. That's our democracy for you... a bit of a shambles in places, no?

[Saintandy666]

When you say WE do you mean people old enough to vote and therefore not YOU?

 

I am of voting age actually!

[aintforever]

I hate to support Dave, but he just used a good analogy. He said you shouldn't 'walk away from burning buildings'. Put the fire out first, then deal with the our future in the EU.

 

Not a great analogy, in the event of fire you should leave the building through the nearest exit.

[Saintandy666]

Not a great analogy, in the event of fire you should leave the building through the nearest exit.

 

But you should make sure the fire is sorted before running away... call in the fire-brigade, no?

[hypochondriac]

UKIP... or start your own party. That's our democracy for you... a bit of a shambles in places, no?

 

But as everyone knows, one issue parties will never get to power. The main two parties know it will always be between labour and the Tories and so with things like Europe they have been able to abuse their power to force through all these changes that no one actually signed up for. My grandparents are outraged.

[hypochondriac]

But you should make sure the fire is sorted before running away... call in the fire-brigade, no?

 

Or leave it to someone else to sort out seeing as you didn't start the fire and have nothing to do with it?

[hypochondriac]

I am of voting age actually!

Have you actually voted yet?

[Joensuu]

But erm no we have had no say. No party who were capable of forming a government have been against handing these powers to Europe, so just who should we have been voting for?

 

If only we had a fairer voting system eh?

[Saintandy666]

Or leave it to someone else to sort out seeing as you didn't start the fire and have nothing to do with it?

 

But if your family and friends are inside the building, you want to save them first?! Before walking away...

[solentstars]

Can we rename this thread "Dune's inner monologue"?

 

Others can contribute.

i agree i,m watched something more important like deal or no deal and then the chase rather than listening to a bunch of nutty right wing nutters trying to undermine their own party to get rid of cameron .

we are never going to leave the eu despite the posturing by mps.

[Saintandy666]

Have you actually voted yet?

 

I have. I voted Yes for AV and Liberal Democrat in my locals last year. My local area is always Liberal Democrat by quite some margin, helped by the fact our councillors have very good reputations locally.

[solentstars]

If only we had a fairer voting system eh?

agree and a elected 2nd chamber:)

[aintforever]

But you should make sure the fire is sorted before running away... call in the fire-brigade, no?

 

Call them when you are outside on your mobile.

 

Leave Dippy Dave in there trying to fill a bucket of water while his b*ll*cks are on fire.

[Saintandy666]

But as everyone knows, one issue parties will never get to power. The main two parties know it will always be between labour and the Tories and so with things like Europe they have been able to abuse their power to force through all these changes that no one actually signed up for. My grandparents are outraged.

 

Well, if the UK is fed up, they only need vote for someone else... or at least that is theory. I do agree with you, it isn't easy to pick anyone other than the main parties in a FPTP system.

[dune]

But as everyone knows, one issue parties will never get to power. The main two parties know it will always be between labour and the Tories and so with things like Europe they have been able to abuse their power to force through all these changes that no one actually signed up for. My grandparents are outraged.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12657286

 

The Barnsley by election result is not being heeded by the Tories at their peril. UKIP are the biggest threat the Tories face without a doubt because UKIP voters are mainly ( but by no means exclusively) disenfranchised Tory voters.

 

They might never gain power, but they'll stop the Tories ever governing again IMO and for that reason we will see the Tories FORCED to adopt a more eurosceptic stance in the future.

[solentstars]

Can we rename this thread "Dune's inner monologue"?

 

Others can contribute.

i think its the voices in his head;) no offence mean,t to dunne just jokeing;)

[View From The Top]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12657286

 

The Barnsley by election result is not being heeded by the Tories at their peril. UKIP are the biggest threat the Tories face without a doubt because UKIP voters are mainly ( but by no means exclusively) disenfranchised Tory voters.

 

They might never gain power, but they'll stop the Tories ever governing again IMO and for that reason we will see the Tories FORCED to adopt a more eurosceptic stance in the future.

 

The tories in the Westminster bubble are only concerned with the pieces of silver from their friends in business, and those friends want us in the EU.

[Saintandy666]

15% of conservative voters think EU membership is a good thing. 18% said it was neither good nor bad. I wonder where they would go if the Tories took us out of the EU... they may win UKIP voters put lose their Europhile faction.

[dune]

The tories in the Westminster bubble are only concerned with the pieces of silver from their friends in business, and those friends want us in the EU.

 

Well what i'd do (but it won't happen) is make party funding come out of the public purse proportionate to their support in British and European elections. Also increase MP's salaries and bar them from other jobs.

 

No Union funding for Labour, No corporate funding for the Tories.

[View From The Top]

Well what i'd do (but it won't happen) is make party funding come out of the public purse proportionate to their support in British and European elections. Also increase MP's salaries and bar them from other jobs.

 

No Union funding for Labour, No corporate funding for the Tories.

 

Most non Westminster folk would have little issue with that, however, the Westminster folk would never vote it through.

[dune]

15% of conservative voters think EU membership is a good thing. 18% said it was neither good nor bad. I wonder where they would go if the Tories took us out of the EU... they may win UKIP voters put lose their Europhile faction.

 

So that means 67% think it's a bad thing.

 

That 67% is a huge chunk that the government are really p/ssing off.

 

Nigel Farage has said that pre 2010 many Tory voters said "just you wait til the Tories get back in and reclaim our powers" - they will now be feeling betrayed.

 

UKIP will now grow and become the third party IMO especially with the Liberals in disarray.

[Saintandy666]

So that means 67% think it's a bad thing.

 

That 67% is a huge chunk that the government are really p/ssing off.

 

Nigel Farage has said that pre 2010 many Tory voters said "just you wait til the Tories get back in and reclaim our powers" - they will now be feeling betrayed.

 

UKIP will now grow and become the third party IMO especially with the Liberals in disarray.

 

5% said don't know and 61% said bad thing. (adds up to 99 due to rounding stuff I assume)

 

Still... bad thing does not mean they want out and 15% is a large amount of your support to alienate as the other 61% won't abandon as has been shown over the last 31 years.