1976_Child Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15373071 Yet more proof. Yes, fellow humans, we really are causing our planet to warm. Whatever right-wing nut-job deniers say. The science is conclusive. Sorry dune... You and your kind: 0. Science: 1. But I just bet y'all get in your cars and crank the engine tomorrow. WAKE UP PEOPLE! WE REALLY ARE KILLING OUR OWN HABITAT! STOP IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 (edited) Sorry YOU and those so called money driven, saving their own easy jobs "scientists" are wrong. Every planet in our solar system is warming up and that is caused by the Sun. A small amount on Earth might be caused by humans but nothing as much as those self interest groups claim. "keep the red flag flying here" so I can't be accused of being another Dune Edited 21 October, 2011 by Saint in Paradise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 We've already discussed this. Can't you start a really interesting thread about heating a bed sit with cooker or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Sorry YOU and those so called money driven, saving their own easy jobs "scientists" are wrong. Every planet in our solar system is warming up and that is caused by the Sun. A small amount on Earth might be caused by humans but nothing as much as those self interest groups claim. "keep the red flag flying here" so I can't be accused of being another Dune I think we can put you firmly down as a denier rather than a sceptic as you obviously do not trust any scientific research preferring to rely on you own opinion rather than on any facts. Your comment about every planet warming up unfortunately shows what a lack of knowledge you appear to have on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 We've already discussed this. Can't you start a really interesting thread about heating a bed sit with cooker or something. It may have been discussed before but that was before this authoritative report that has categorically confirmed global warming even after taking into account all the petty points begin made by climate change deniers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 It's called 'climate change' rather then global warming for a very good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 It's called 'climate change' rather then global warming for a very good reason. Both are true. The overall temperature is going up as the graph on the BBC link shows. However this increase is then affecting the climate so that the usual seasons are being affected, e.g. colder winters or drier hotter summers. So global warming is the driving engine behind the climate change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 where is the bit in the report blaming human activity? It says climate change is occuring, as it has done with fluctuation for however many million years - a bit like telling us that summer follows spring. Not quite a scoop, I think Gaddafi is more of a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVER THE HILL Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 where is the bit in the report blaming human activity? It says climate change is occuring, as it has done with fluctuation for however many million years - a bit like telling us that summer follows spring. . The point is the speed with which the climate is changing not that it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Both are true. The overall temperature is going up as the graph on the BBC link shows. However this increase is then affecting the climate so that the usual seasons are being affected, e.g. colder winters or drier hotter summers. So global warming is the driving engine behind the climate change. Was that a drier hotter summer we just had? When was that? I must have missed it. Oh, I see. You said colder winters or drier hotter summers, so yes, you're right, as we definitely had the colder winters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Curious rant about right wing nut jobs -I imagine there are plenty of left wing nut job denyers as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Regardless of who or what might be causing this, we have to accept that it IS happening, and start to look at the consequences for such things as food & water supplies, etc., and there are consequential impacts on climate which could serve to escalate local impacts, such as changes in sea temperature & levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Pedro Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 There's bugger all the human race can do about it - its happened before and it will happen again. This doesn't mean we should be wasteful, but just appreciate we are not having THAT much affect on the natural warming and cooling of the planet. Meanwhile, its a great reason for governments around the world to screw more tax out of every one of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithd Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15373071 Yet more proof. Yes, fellow humans, we really are causing our planet to warm. Whatever right-wing nut-job deniers say. The science is conclusive. Sorry dune... You and your kind: 0. Science: 1. But I just bet y'all get in your cars and crank the engine tomorrow. WAKE UP PEOPLE! WE REALLY ARE KILLING OUR OWN HABITAT! STOP IT! I refuse to take seriously anybody who uses the word(s) "y'all" in a sentence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 (edited) Was that a drier hotter summer we just had? When was that? I must have missed it. Oh, I see. You said colder winters or drier hotter summers, so yes, you're right, as we definitely had the colder winters. That argument is on par with people who say "I know someone who smoked 20 a day and lived till they were 90, so smoking can't be dangerous." The science is pretty conclusive that global warming/climate change is happening. In fact global warming may well actually cause our Uk climate to become more exteme both ways -- hotter summers and colder winters --especially if the Gulf Stream/Atlantic Drift is affected. It is that that keeps our climate so temperate compared with other places that are just as close or far from the poles and equator. What is still open to debate is the extent to which mankind's actions are causing this. That is where the vested interests come into play, from both sides. However, regardless of what you believe is the underlying cause of it, our actions can accelerate or slow it ... and there are even plans around that would have beeen silly science fiction only a few years back that could actually stop it -- from thousands of tiny mirror satellites to cloud seeding, etc. Edited 21 October, 2011 by Ken Tone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 So, the world is getting warmer, as it has done several times for hundreds of thousands of years at a time, during the life of the Earth. So....what ? Where is the evidence it is man-made ? Oh, and just to point out that : one volcanic eruption chucks out the equivalent of years of man-made greenhouse gases. the UK contributes less than 2% of man-made greenhouse emission. So Lib-Dem hand-wringing green taxes causing so much misery to families and old people are doing f**k-all good whilst China, India and the US keep sticking up the proverbial middle finger to the green cause anyway... Keep building your wind-farms, if you must... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Rather global warming than an ice age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 My view on this is fairly well-known but I'm simply going to ask people to read this site to get answers to some of the many questions that keep coming up: http://www.skepticalscience.com/ If people are genuinely interested in learning more about this subject there is tonnes of evidence out there, and for those with a genuinely open mind about the subject, it is fascinating stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of people have made their mind up on the back of very little information, very flimsy arguments, and a 'la la la, I'm not listening' attitude if something they read challenges their own pre-conceptions. (On both sides of the argument.) Science faces a real struggle when the first things that get mentioned are 'It's an excuse for higher taxes' and it's a shame. If we really are supposed to be an intelligent race, we should be welcoming all research on this subject rather than using it as yet another reason to argue about politics and money and oneupmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 There's bugger all the human race can do about it - its happened before and it will happen again. This doesn't mean we should be wasteful, but just appreciate we are not having THAT much affect on the natural warming and cooling of the planet. Meanwhile, its a great reason for governments around the world to screw more tax out of every one of us. So do you have any PROOF that we are not having THAT much of an effect on the warming of the planet? Show me any proof that the rise in global temperatures in linked to anything other than human activity and I will listen to you but at the moment it appears to me that people are wilfully disbelieving human generated global warming as they don't want the change to their lives that having to try and reduce our impact on the planet will bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Never understood the mentality that because something happens naturally, then we shouldn't try and stop man made creations of the same thing. Yes climate changes naturally. It also changes for man made reasons. Climate change is hugely disruptive and expensivec - far more so than controlling carbon emissions. Some people die of natural causes, some get murdered. Doesn't seem to me to be a sound rationale for doing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 I like Lord Moncktons approach [video=youtube;QYvbibO-SlI] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Monckton has been shown up time and again to be to be factually wrong and um, lets say disengenuous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Another example of provable misinformation from a climate skeptic: Wonder if those arguing against climate change are readers of the Telegraph, Mail or Express who like to rely on Lawson to back up their position. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/oct/21/lord-lawson-global-warming-errors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 So do you have any PROOF that we are not having THAT much of an effect on the warming of the planet? Show me any proof that the rise in global temperatures in linked to anything other than human activity and I will listen to you but at the moment it appears to me that people are wilfully disbelieving human generated global warming as they don't want the change to their lives that having to try and reduce our impact on the planet will bring. Climate change has happened since the begining of time. It accelerates and decelerates. And you will love to know, the planet hasn't been 'warming', infact the tempature has gone down slightly in the last 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 So do you have any PROOF that we are not having THAT much of an effect on the warming of the planet? Show me any proof that the rise in global temperatures in linked to anything other than human activity and I will listen to you but at the moment it appears to me that people are wilfully disbelieving human generated global warming as they don't want the change to their lives that having to try and reduce our impact on the planet will bring. Man, this comment is just plain insanity. I do something about my family's energy usage because energy is becoming expensive due to peak oil, etc. Not because a load of dishonest scientists with funding to protect make up evidence about something that is going on naturally anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 And you will love to know, the planet hasn't been 'warming', infact the tempature has gone down slightly in the last 10 years. Like most sceptic sweeping statements, easily provable to be plain wrong. http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Rather global warming than an ice age. Climate change has happened since the begining of time. It accelerates and decelerates. And you will love to know, the planet hasn't been 'warming', infact the tempature has gone down slightly in the last 10 years. In fairness to the idiot tree-huggers, there is a very clearly established mathematical model of the weather of the Northern Hemisphere which indicates that if the planet warms, our winters in N. Europe become a LOT colder. Its related to the loss of the Arctic ice-cap and all that cold freshwater coming down and stopping the Gulf Stream However, I am of the opinion that the equation then re-balances itself. If N. Europe is so cold, the Arctic ice-cap will start growing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Like most sceptic sweeping statements, easily provable to be plain wrong. http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ Better to believe dodgy professors from East Anglia, eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Man, this comment is just plain insanity. I do something about my family's energy usage because energy is becoming expensive due to peak oil, etc. Not because a load of dishonest scientists with funding to protect make up evidence about something that is going on naturally anyway. Exxon made far more money available to climate scientists to prove man made climate change was a myth. They gave up around 5 years ago when the evidence became incontrovertible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Better to believe dodgy professors from East Anglia, eh ? You do know NASA isnt a subsidiary of the University of East Anglia I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 My view on this is fairly well-known but I'm simply going to ask people to read this site to get answers to some of the many questions that keep coming up: http://www.skepticalscience.com/ If people are genuinely interested in learning more about this subject there is tonnes of evidence out there, and for those with a genuinely open mind about the subject, it is fascinating stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of people have made their mind up on the back of very little information, very flimsy arguments, and a 'la la la, I'm not listening' attitude if something they read challenges their own pre-conceptions. (On both sides of the argument.) Science faces a real struggle when the first things that get mentioned are 'It's an excuse for higher taxes' and it's a shame. If we really are supposed to be an intelligent race, we should be welcoming all research on this subject rather than using it as yet another reason to argue about politics and money and oneupmanship. Nice cartoon on there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 (edited) Like most sceptic sweeping statements, easily provable to be plain wrong. http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/ Thanks for cutting out half of what I said in that quote. I guess that suits you. By the way, I'm no sceptic. I enjoy being devils advocate. I do believe humans have SOME effect. I can't see how when we burn 30 billion tons of carbon every year that it doesn't have an effect. However, it is massively over hyped though which conveniently pushes up taxes. Edited 21 October, 2011 by Golden Balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Exxon made far more money available to climate scientists to prove man made climate change was a myth. They gave up around 5 years ago when the evidence became incontrovertible. Yeah, so incontrovertible the argument is still raging now. Sorry, not intererested in bleeding-heart liberals and loony-lefties just trying to find a new way to control people's lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Thanks for cutting out half of what I said in that quote. I guess that suits you. By the way, I'm no sceptic. I enjoy being devils advocate. I do believe humans have SOME effect. How about cows and all their farting ? Should we force the world to be vegan ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Thanks for cutting out half of what I said in that quote. I guess that suits you. By the way, I'm no sceptic. I enjoy being devils advocate. I do believe humans have SOME effect. I can see how when we burn 30 billion tons of carbon every year that it doesn't have an effect. However, it is massively over hyped though which conveniently pushes up taxes. I agree about the natural cycles, disagree that the man made effect is inconsequential - simply because we as a human race have on a very small tolerance for temperature change. Without any atmospheric CO2 at all global temperatures would be around 18 degrees celcius colder than currently - making normal human life anywhere north of say Morocco impossible. We need some CO2. It is also likely that without man made additional CO2 being pumped out, we would by now be heading slowly into a new mini ice age. The problem is that the rate we are changing the climate, and the long period of latency (ie effects of carbon already put out won't be felt in full for 100 years) far exceeds our understanding of the impacts. In effect we are driving 90mph round a blind bend hoping there isnt anything in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Yeah, so incontrovertible the argument is still raging now. Sorry, not intererested in bleeding-heart liberals and loony-lefties just trying to find a new way to control people's lives. Its only raging in the heads of people who refuse to read the data. You can and do put a negative spin on almost everything to fit with what you want to believe. Thats your perogative, but it doesnt change whats happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Some lovely comments above which perfectly highlight my point. Why take time to read the evidence when you can call people 'idiot tree-huggers' and dismiss all scientists as 'dishonest'... lovely? And just to back up buctootim's point, as I've said before, it's all about the precautionary principle: We don't drive around a blind bend at 90mph because there could be something coming the other way. We did it with the Ozone layer and it proved important. So why shouldn't it apply here? We simply do not know, 100%, quite how much impact human's are having on our climate, and we'll probably never truly know, but given the weight of verified, peer-reviewed scientific evidence at this moment in time, would it not be prudent to be precautionary and moderate our impact. For my kid's sake, and theirs, I think it's entirely the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Climate change has happened since the begining of time. It accelerates and decelerates. And you will love to know, the planet hasn't been 'warming', infact the tempature has gone down slightly in the last 10 years. Yes I know climate change has happened in the past, e.g. various ice ages, what is being discussed is the current rapid change in the earths temperature and the major contribution to that from all reliable evidence is down to the green house gases we produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Yeah, so incontrovertible the argument is still raging now. Sorry, not intererested in bleeding-heart liberals and loony-lefties just trying to find a new way to control people's lives. You would rather be in favour of the right wing/business lobby who are using all the methods they can to try and nay-say the science because trying to save the planet by doing something about it will interfere with their profit margins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 So do you have any PROOF that we are not having THAT much of an effect on the warming of the planet? Show me any proof that the rise in global temperatures in linked to anything other than human activity and I will listen to you but at the moment it appears to me that people are wilfully disbelieving human generated global warming as they don't want the change to their lives that having to try and reduce our impact on the planet will bring. It's very difficult to prove a negative (non-correlation) but there may be other influences: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/24/breaking-news-cern-experiment-confirms-cosmic-rays-influence-climate-change/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Some lovely comments above which perfectly highlight my point. Why take time to read the evidence when you can call people 'idiot tree-huggers' and dismiss all scientists as 'dishonest'... lovely? And just to back up buctootim's point, as I've said before, it's all about the precautionary principle: We don't drive around a blind bend at 90mph because there could be something coming the other way. We did it with the Ozone layer and it proved important. So why shouldn't it apply here? We simply do not know, 100%, quite how much impact human's are having on our climate, and we'll probably never truly know, but given the weight of verified, peer-reviewed scientific evidence at this moment in time, would it not be prudent to be precautionary and moderate our impact. For my kid's sake, and theirs, I think it's entirely the right thing to do. Even if such warming is staving off an ice age? The scientific concensus when I was younger was that we are in an inter-glacial warm period and that we are overdude another period of global freezing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Even if such warming is staving off an ice age? The scientific concensus when I was younger was that we are in an inter-glacial warm period and that we are overdude another period of global freezing. I think there are two different issues here. If current actions are indeed 'staving off an ice age' that's simply by luck rather than design. It could well be that the truly natural cycles of our planet's climate mean we are due another ice age... as I understand it, it is still a long way away in human terms, thousands of years, if not a long time in planetary terms. If our influence with regard to climate change is genuine, then we are having a much more concentrated effect which *could* cause major problems for us within MY lifetime. As a result, climate change is a far higher priority for human civilisation, and we would simply be seeking to correct the changes we have caused ourselves. Developing technologies, some of which may help with regard to climate change, could also be used in the future to protect the human race in the event of an ice age, but that would need to be a seperate issue IMO, way down the line. Ultimately, whether it's an ice age or something else, the planet will probably kill us off eventually, but at this point, we're doing our level best to kick ourselves off IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Yes I know climate change has happened in the past, e.g. various ice ages, what is being discussed is the current rapid change in the earths temperature and the major contribution to that from all reliable evidence is down to the green house gases we produce. Other points of view: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100102296/sun-causes-climate-change-shock/ http://www.science20.com/science_20/cloud_and_cosmic_ray_climate_change_blow-82089 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Wes Tender: Was that a drier hotter summer we just had? When was that? I must have missed it. Oh, I see. You said colder winters or drier hotter summers, so yes, you're right, as we definitely had the colder winters.That argument is on par with people who say "I know someone who smoked 20 a day and lived till they were 90, so smoking can't be dangerous." The science is pretty conclusive that global warming/climate change is happening. In fact global warming may well actually cause our Uk climate to become more exteme both ways -- hotter summers and colder winters --especially if the Gulf Stream/Atlantic Drift is affected. It is that that keeps our climate so temperate compared with other places that are just as close or far from the poles and equator. What is still open to debate is the extent to which mankind's actions are causing this. That is where the vested interests come into play, from both sides. However, regardless of what you believe is the underlying cause of it, our actions can accelerate or slow it ... and there are even plans around that would have beeen silly science fiction only a few years back that could actually stop it -- from thousands of tiny mirror satellites to cloud seeding, etc. It's rather peculiar that you can read so much into my little tongue in cheek comment and state that it is on a par with the lecture you gave in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Other points of view: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100102296/sun-causes-climate-change-shock/ http://www.science20.com/science_20/cloud_and_cosmic_ray_climate_change_blow-82089 And indeed even more points of view including links to 13 other studies that have shown that cosmic rays are not as influential. And this is my point. Science continues to experiment and theories continue to evolve. So why do so many people seek to close out the discussion with a black or white answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Other points of view: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100102296/sun-causes-climate-change-shock/ http://www.science20.com/science_20/cloud_and_cosmic_ray_climate_change_blow-82089 The sun is the heating system in the house. The carbon is the insulation. Both are important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 I refuse to take seriously anybody who uses the word(s) "y'all" in a sentence What ever happened to St George? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 You would rather be in favour of the right wing/business lobby who are using all the methods they can to try and nay-say the science because trying to save the planet by doing something about it will interfere with their profit margins? Its nothing to do with big business and profit margin, and everything to do with people in the West being unwilling to go back to Dark Ages standards of living, and people in the East not willing to have lower standards of living than the West on the basis of a scientific theory still completely unproven. I note my comments about cows and volcanoes remain unanswered............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 21 October, 2011 Share Posted 21 October, 2011 Yeah, so incontrovertible the argument is still raging now. Sorry, not intererested in bleeding-heart liberals and loony-lefties just trying to find a new way to control people's lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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