Hillsborough

[alpine_saint]

in which case you disagree with the findings of the Taylor Report, and what actually happened that day.

 

 

Finally, the penny drops.

 

I couldnt give a sh*t what is written by some old duffer in some government enquiry with a pre-defined agenda.

 

You'll be saying you believe the Hutton report about the Iraq war legality next...

 

The fact is, LFC and their fans felt in the 80s that they owned football and were bigger than football itself, and did what they like. It has been statistically proven that visting teams never got penalties at Anfield.

 

I suppose its a minor miracle something similar didnt happen in the 90's or noughties with ManYoo fans.

Edited 18 October, 2011 by alpine_saint

[alpine_saint]

You shouldn't - the two disasters are not interlinked in the factors that directly caused them. In the case of Hillsborough the disaster was caused by human failure(s), as Kraken above stated - see the Taylor report. Heysel was caused by the stadium itself failing - two completely different things.

 

I think you'll find that if you read the report into the Heysel Stadium - there were actually concerns raised about holding a major sporting event at the venue due to its delapidated state. Although football related tragedies - their main causes are fundementally different.

 

As I said, always the fault lies elsewhere.

 

If the Heysel Stadium disaster was so clear-cut, why was no successful challenge to the banning of English clubs in European competitions for 5 years ever mounted ?

[pap]

Finally, the penny drops.

 

I couldnt give a sh*t what is written by some old duffer in some government enquiry with a pre-defined agenda.

 

You'll be saying you believe the Hutton report about the Iraq war legality next...

 

The fact is, LFC and their fans felt in the 80s that they owned football and were bigger than football itself, and did what they like. It has been statistically proven that visting teams never got penalties at Anfield.

 

I suppose its a minor miracle something similar didnt happen in the 90's or noughties with ManYoo fans.

 

Did a Liverpool boy give you some sort of hiding at some point, or are you just this angry all the time?

[um pahars]

What is quite clear to me is that too many people on this thread are posting without having read The Taylor Report and instead are relying on the discredited, ill informed and disingenuous media reporting of the time (the myths of that reporting are still with us today).

 

Ticketless fans, drunken hoardes, gates being smashed down - all myths put about by people attempting to deflect the blame and all dismissed by the Taylor Report.

 

If you really want a simple and straightforward background to events on that day and what the current debate is all about, then Steve Rotherham's opening gambit in last nights speech is a good place to start. He quickly dispels some of the myths, lies and innuendo that still persist if this thread is anything to go by.

 

As someone who stood on that terrace five years earlier in a quarter final of the FA Cup, the "There but for the grace of God" line resonates with me!!!

 

http://http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2011/10/17/hillsborough-debate-liverpool-mp-steve-rotheram-s-opening-speech-in-full-100252-29611412/

[alpine_saint]

Did a Liverpool boy give you some sort of hiding at some point, or are you just this angry all the time?

 

Nope, I've liked every Scouser I've ever met, and thoroughly enjoyed every visit I've made to the city.

 

But there is some bizarre combination of arrogance and self-pity that afflicts the people there whenever some collective tragedy occurs.

 

And nobody feels their loss like the people of Liverpool, of course. The rest of us clearly have a lower level of sentience...

[alpine_saint]

What is quite clear to me is that too many people on this thread are posting without having read The Taylor Report and instead are relying on the discredited, ill informed and disingenuous media reporting of the time (the myths of that reporting are still with us today).

 

Ticketless fans, drunken hoardes, gates being smashed down - all myths put about by people attempting to deflect the blame and all dismissed by the Taylor Report.

 

If you really want a simple and straightforward background to events on that day and what the current debate is all about, then Steve Rotherham's opening gambit in last nights speech is a good place to start. He quickly dispels some of the myths, lies and innuendo that still persist if this thread is anything to go by.

 

As someone who stood on that terrace five years earlier in a quarter final of the FA Cup, the "There but for the grace of God" line resonates with me!!!

 

http://http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2011/10/17/hillsborough-debate-liverpool-mp-steve-rotheram-s-opening-speech-in-full-100252-29611412/

 

So, if the ticketless fans thing is a really a myth, why werent such disasters happening at Hillsborough every weekend at that time ?

[Frank's cousin]

The Police feck up - the terraces being old and unsafe, the fans arriving late and being impatient - seems obvious that there are many factors that contributed to this tragedy. For me though one thing that seems often overlooked is that the culture in football back then, certainly not exclusive to Liverpool, was still one of football associated with the 'hooligans' - the simple fact that cages were there, the media descriptions, which to be fair were based on a lot of Bull****, but also on some truth, that in general, many grounds before and after games were often not pleasent places to be... we can deny it if we want to, but the truth is that all fans who have ever been involved in 'aggro' share some responsibility for this - because the cages and crap reaction and poor decison making (treating fans like animals) were considered necessary by police and clubs to to deal with the hooligan element.

 

The police made big mistakes that day and the lack of leadership and avoiding the truth is something shameful, but at the time, the ability and knowldege in the best way to deal with large football crowds (so close to the stadium - since at some games we have seen fans screened for tickets further away from grounds particulary at tournaments) was severely lacking - I get the impression they felt opening the exit gate was the right thing to do to avoid the crush outside, but then they failed to deal with the flow of fans into the various pens - why did they not delay the kick off by 45 mins and announce that to those fans waiting to get in? Did teh emdia put pressure on to avoid a delay?

 

I think finding the cause is obvious to most if looking at this with an open mind.... many factors, but if determined to find someone to blame, it becomes far more complex - as fans and the football culture of the day play a part in this that few fans will want to admit - part of the problem in all this is that the 96 victims were those proper fans who arrived on time, had tickets and were at the front of the pens, so quite rightly their families and friends want answers as to how decent ordinary fans can be killed at football - but if they want to blame a single source, then if looking at it objectively, that for me becomes almost impossible and fans themselves also have to look at themselves in all this, and not just the police's decisions that had such tragic consequences.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

So, if the ticketless fans thing is a really a myth, why werent such disasters happening at Hillsborough every weekend at that time ?

 

Possibly because Sheffield Weds were not drawing the same level of attendances every weekend? It was an FA Cup Semi Final between two of the, then, biggest clubs in the English game.

[alpine_saint]

Possibly because Sheffield Weds were not drawing the same level of attendances every weekend? It was an FA Cup Semi Final between two of the, then, biggest clubs in the English game.

 

And the stand had a safety rating for a given number of people, presumably equalling the amount of tickets that were made available. Or are we now on to blaming Sheffield Council and Sheff Wed FC as well ?

[alpine_saint]

The Police feck up - the terraces being old and unsafe, the fans arriving late and being impatient - seems obvious that there are many factors that contributed to this tragedy. For me though one thing that seems often overlooked is that the culture in football back then, certainly not exclusive to Liverpool, was still one of football associated with the 'hooligans' - the simple fact that cages were there, the media descriptions, which to be fair were based on a lot of Bull****, but also on some truth, that in general, many grounds before and after games were often not pleasent places to be... we can deny it if we want to, but the truth is that all fans who have ever been involved in 'aggro' share some responsibility for this - because the cages and crap reaction and poor decison making (treating fans like animals) were considered necessary by police and clubs to to deal with the hooligan element.

 

The police made big mistakes that day and the lack of leadership and avoiding the truth is something shameful, but at the time, the ability and knowldege in the best way to deal with large football crowds (so close to the stadium - since at some games we have seen fans screened for tickets further away from grounds particulary at tournaments) was severely lacking - I get the impression they felt opening the exit gate was the right thing to do to avoid the crush outside, but then they failed to deal with the flow of fans into the various pens - why did they not delay the kick off by 45 mins and announce that to those fans waiting to get in? Did teh emdia put pressure on to avoid a delay?

 

I think finding the cause is obvious to most if looking at this with an open mind.... many factors, but if determined to find someone to blame, it becomes far more complex - as fans and the football culture of the day play a part in this that few fans will want to admit - part of the problem in all this is that the 96 victims were those proper fans who arrived on time, had tickets and were at the front of the pens, so quite rightly their families and friends want answers as to how decent ordinary fans can be killed at football - but if they want to blame a single source, then if looking at it objectively, that for me becomes almost impossible and fans themselves also have to look at themselves in all this, and not just the police's decisions that had such tragic consequences.

 

A good post. The debate seems to have polarised into blaming the police/exonerating the Liverpool fans and blaming the Liverpool fans/exonerating the police, when the reality is somewhere in between.

 

But in fairness, it seems to me that the families and the media are causing this polarisation to happen still. Yes, I know the Sun reporting back then was disgraceful, but wasnt that dealt with in court already ??

[trousers]

If a family member was killed in an accident on the motorway caused by a speeding driver, would your blame and anger be primarily directed at the offending driver or at the authorities for not doing enough to prevent said driver speeding in the first place?

[Frank's cousin]

And the stand had a safety rating for a given number of people, presumably equalling the amount of tickets that were made available. Or are we now on to blaming Sheffield Council and Sheff Wed FC as well ?

TBF Alps according the current news report on he BBC, the capacity of that section of the stand was 2200 odd, but it was later found that the barriers were inadequate and that the capacity should have been restricted to 1600 as a result - not sure how many tickets were sold for that section or how many fans were outside trying to get in - the report suggests that 3000+ tried to get in two pens who capacity should have been 1600... but there was no control from police or stewards after teh exit gate had been opened - now whether any amount of policing or stewarding would have been able to deal with that is another matter

[alpine_saint]

TBF Alps according the current news report on he BBC' date=' the capacity of that section of the stand was 2200 odd, but it was later found that the barriers were inadequate and that the capacity should have been restricted to 1600 as a result - not sure how many tickets were sold for that section or how many fans were outside trying to get in - the report suggests that 3000+ tried to get in two pens who capacity should have been 1600... but there was no control from police or stewards after teh exit gate had been opened - now whether any amount of policing or stewarding would have been able to deal with that is another matter[/quote']

 

I havent read the report you mention, but taking your post at face-value, it seems that EVERYBODY is to blame to some degree. The council and club, knowing that part of the stadium would be full, should have renewed the safety certificate for the game, there were too many fans (including ticketless fans, since I am 100% that SWFC didnt oversell the game) and the police and stewarding were inadequate.

 

So why this incessant campaigning over 2 decades later to bash the police ???

Edited 18 October, 2011 by alpine_saint

[um pahars]

So, if the ticketless fans thing is a really a myth, why werent such disasters happening at Hillsborough every weekend at that time ?

 

If you are that interested in the issues of the day, Google the Taylor Report and read it properly. Then come back and debate the issues at hand.

 

I really don't want to get drawn in to debunking the various myths that were propagated at the time, after all someone far more qualified with more evidence than I have ever seen has already debunked them. It's just a pity that once the mud was thrown it has tended to stick.

 

But my only contribution to answering your question would be that I very much doubt if the Leppings Lane terrace had to cope with 10,000 fans on that many occasions. When it did in 1981 during a FA Cup Semi Final between Spurs and Wolves, their were something like 40 crush injuries on the very same terrace. There were also reports of crushing in the 1988 semi final.

[Frank's cousin]

If a family member was killed in an accident on the motorway caused by a speeding driver, would your blame and anger be primarily directed at the offending driver or at the authorities for not doing enough to prevent said driver speeding in the first place?

 

I get your analogy, but in this case, it would be more that as a result of huge numbers of speeding drivers, Police had set up some kind of sharp bends with fences to try and slow things down, only for those very 'safety' measures being just as dangerous for thsoe travelling at normal speed....

 

 

Going back to the media debate etc. I think for the families, they deserve the truth - eg access to all information regardless of what it says - but tehy do need to be prepared that the CAUSE, is likely to be a number of factors, and that if tehy want to BLAME someone to get as they say justice, its probably not going to answer that... I simply do not think you can blame just teh police or just the fans or just teh barriers and to single out the police and find a scape goat is not going to resolve this or bring back those you died... it would in muy opinion also be unfair or unjust.

 

I also think there is possibly an element of wanting to avoid any sense of responibilty by fans who were part of the big push - its easy to blame the police and certianly their decisions were disasterous - but if we want the whole truth, as football fans we have to admit that we created a culture and and an environment that meant crowds were were CONTROLLED and not managed, controlled as in treated like animals in cages, and on that day, 3000-5000 fans arrived on mass trying to get through old antiquated turnstiles - had the culture been different, had the police been able to manage teh situation with fear, then some of thsoe diasterous decisions may not have had to be made - teh police got it wrong yes, but I think teh culture and behaviour of fans at the time meant they had to make those decisions that led to the tragedy.

[Foxstone]

If you are that interested in the issues of the day, Google the Taylor Report and read it properly. Then come back and debate the issues at hand.

 

I really don't want to get drawn in to debunking the various myths that were propagated at the time, after all someone far more qualified with more evidence than I have ever seen has already debunked them. It's just a pity that once the mud was thrown it has tended to stick.

 

But my only contribution to answering your question would be that I very much doubt if the Leppings Lane terrace had to cope with 10,000 fans on that many occasions. When it did in 1981 during a FA Cup Semi Final between Spurs and Wolves, their were something like 40 crush injuries on the very same terrace. There were also reports of crushing in the 1988 semi final.

 

Conversely, I was in that stand in 1982 when Norwich City took 10,000+ fans to Hillsborough for a promotion match against Jack Charltons Wednesday ! There were no crush injuries on that day.

Of course the Taylor report highlights many aspects at the time, one of the chief recommendations has altered the viewing experience of football fans since that time of course, but on that tragic day in 1989 there was clearly a combination of factors that contributed to those deaths, and fan behaviour was one of them.

[um pahars]

but I think teh culture and behaviour of fans at the time meant they had to make those decisions that led to the tragedy.

 

Totally at odds with what Lord Justice Taylor said regarding the Hillsborough disaster and as much as I like you Frank, I think he is somewhat more qualified and better briefed than you on the subject.

[um pahars]

Conversely, I was in that stand in 1982 when Norwich City took 10,000+ fans to Hillsborough for a promotion match against Jack Charltons Wednesday ! There were no crush injuries on that day.

Of course the Taylor report highlights many aspects at the time, one of the chief recommendations has altered the viewing experience of football fans since that time of course, but on that tragic day in 1989 there was clearly a combination of factors that contributed to those deaths, and fan behaviour was one of them.

 

The Leppings Lane end held just under 15,000 so just as when we went there in 1984 with similar numbers, we were still well short of the 15,000 or so trying to be accomodated on that fateful day.

 

However, as Taylor pointed out, "My father & grandfather stood safely on this terrace" is not really the most convincing argument to put forward.

 

And I don't doubt that the human element, the dynamic environment and crowd psychology played a part on that day, and Taylor does not ignore this, but in his findings he said they were secondary factors.

Edited 18 October, 2011 by um pahars

[alpine_saint]

Totally at odds with what Lord Justice Taylor said regarding the Hillsborough disaster and as much as I like you Frank, I think he is somewhat more qualified and better briefed than you on the subject.

 

I dont particularly care for the patronising tone you are adopting on this. Taylor was given a limited remit when investigating this, so issues such as the one Frank has raised were probably outside his remit. If you look at the recommendations part, he is only interested in the control inside and outside the grounds, not the social background.

 

I have read some of the interim report now. It seems clear to me he is not blaming the police, or the ground, but a number of factors including them, but ALSO including the fact that the gates were rushed by a large number of fans some of which did not have tickets.

Edited 18 October, 2011 by alpine_saint

[trousers]

I get your analogy, but in this case, it would be more that as a result of huge numbers of speeding drivers, Police had set up some kind of sharp bends with fences to try and slow things down, only for those very 'safety' measures being just as dangerous for thsoe travelling at normal speed....

 

 

Going back to the media debate etc. I think for the families, they deserve the truth - eg access to all information regardless of what it says - but tehy do need to be prepared that the CAUSE, is likely to be a number of factors, and that if tehy want to BLAME someone to get as they say justice, its probably not going to answer that... I simply do not think you can blame just teh police or just the fans or just teh barriers and to single out the police and find a scape goat is not going to resolve this or bring back those you died... it would in muy opinion also be unfair or unjust.

 

I also think there is possibly an element of wanting to avoid any sense of responibilty by fans who were part of the big push - its easy to blame the police and certianly their decisions were disasterous - but if we want the whole truth, as football fans we have to admit that we created a culture and and an environment that meant crowds were were CONTROLLED and not managed, controlled as in treated like animals in cages, and on that day, 3000-5000 fans arrived on mass trying to get through old antiquated turnstiles - had the culture been different, had the police been able to manage teh situation with fear, then some of thsoe diasterous decisions may not have had to be made - teh police got it wrong yes, but I think teh culture and behaviour of fans at the time meant they had to make those decisions that led to the tragedy.

 

I accept it wasn't one of my better analogies (which isn't saying much!) but I was posing the analogy-led question more from a human instinct point of view.

 

I still think in most 'tragic accident' scenarios, people instinctively direct their angst at the metaphorical 'man behind the wheel' rather than the faulty underlying systems and authorities.

 

The Hillsborough disaster however tends to buck this trend of thought.

 

Just an opinion of course.

[um pahars]

I dont particularly care for the patronising tone you are adopting on this. Taylor was given a limited remit when investigating this, so issues such as the one Frank has raised were probably outside his remit. If you look at the recommendations part, he is only interested in the control inside and outside the grounds, not the social background.

 

I have read some of the interim report now. It seems clear to me he is not blaming the police, or the ground, but a number of factors including them, but ALSO including the fact that the gates were rushed by a large number of fans some of which did not have tickets.

 

"My terms of reference are extremely wide".

 

And you have obviously not read the Report if you don't think he doesn't blame the Police, "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control" or the ground.

[alpine_saint]

I just read a report on the Guardain site, that has highlighted that the grounds safety certificate was out-of-date, and that South Yorks Police, SWFC and Sheffied Council were sued and paid damages over this.

 

So why in f**ks name is this still going on now ? Surely the payment of damages is an admission of culpability ?

[alpine_saint]

"My terms of reference are extremely wide".

 

And you have obviously not read the Report if you don't think he doesn't blame the Police, "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control" or the ground.

 

Well I dont think his terms of reference were wide, and there is a huge difference in the meaning of the words "main" and "sole". You dont seem to be banging on about the role of the FA, Sheffield council or SWFC at all....

 

EDIT: You obviously dont like the perceived smearing of the fans and victims by the police, but that is a separate issue that seems to be clouding your objectivity.

Edited 18 October, 2011 by alpine_saint

[um pahars]

Well I dont think his terms of reference were wide,

 

As with Frank, with all due respect I would rather go with Lord Justice Taylor's view on how wide he felt his remit was as opposed to yours. Not being patronising, I just think he is/was a lot closer to the action than you are/were.

 

and there is a huge difference in the meaning of the words "main" and "sole"

 

Indeed there is, but you claimed "he is not blaming the police", which is patently incorrect. Taylor goes on to mention other factors, but his main reason for the disaster was relating to the Police.

[trousers]

Totally at odds with what Lord Justice Taylor said regarding the Hillsborough disaster and as much as I like you Frank, I think he is somewhat more qualified and better briefed than you on the subject.

 

I have no reason to specifically doubt the findings of the Taylor report, but, at a philosophical level, isn't blind faith that any given official report is 100% correct as blinkered as someone who choses point blank to believe it?

 

A report produced by a human being isn't guaranteed to be 100% accurate all of the time I would venture.

 

As I say, I've no reason to doubt any aspect of the Taylor report per se.

[Viking Warrior]

interesting discussion on here.

 

Why is there a need to have disclosure of 40k of documents , when we have one or two posters on here who seem to know the truth. Alps is right on a couple of matters. re hutton report . and heysel . I remember being based in episkopi in cyprus watching those awful pictures.

 

Its easy to blame the police. but i suspect some of the liverpool fans behaviour added to the situation that day. it was not just the police I believe it was a culmination of factors.

Why did we have fences installed. because of the behaviour of the hooligan element at football matches crowd violence etc.

 

I do not recollect any comments coming from the forest fans. Im sure there were some made. I actually have a mate a mansfield fan who went to the game.He was a nurse, I rember at the time when he eventually got back from the game talking about it. I was staying with him and his wife at the time but I have forgotten what he said. I will ask him what he recalls of the day.

I suspect his memory has long faded. much like the bloody sunday enquiry.

It will be interesting to see what the documents say. but i suspect that there will be some who will still not be happy and will want another public enquiry. perhaps taylor got it wrong much like the hutton report

[pap]

Nope, I've liked every Scouser I've ever met, and thoroughly enjoyed every visit I've made to the city.

 

But there is some bizarre combination of arrogance and self-pity that afflicts the people there whenever some collective tragedy occurs.

 

And nobody feels their loss like the people of Liverpool, of course. The rest of us clearly have a lower level of sentience...

 

Don't think it's that at all. Liverpool has a keen sense of social solidarity, in which the community will take on the cause of individuals.

 

Funny. People go on about not knowing their neighbours, or a lack of community.

 

You've got places like Liverpool that'll stick together when they feel they've been wronged ( and whatever else you might feel about Hillsborough, the fact that the authorities put themselves before the people who suffered is a grievous wrong ). So that's self-pity and arrogance, is it?

 

I call it looking out for your fellow man. It's a crying shame there isn't more of it in the south.

[JackFrost]

you mistake my point. I said that errors were avoidable. But the real, undeniable reason for the deaths was the cage. Period. End of story. There is no debate here. If the cage was not there the police could have had the pied-piper lead the whole of Merseyside through that tunnel and no one would have died. They would have just gone on the pitch.

 

And just because some stadia still have cages and no deaths occur does not mean that the cage in the Leppings Lane stand was not the reason that 96 people died. That is faulty logic.

 

But they wouldn't have. Because at that point a lot of them were under strict orders to put up a cordon between the two sets of fans whilst they were in full view of fans being crushed to death

 

How would they have led the fans to safety on to the pitch when the police force were still treating it as hooliganism at that point?

 

We're getting into what ifs here but if the cages hadn't been there the Liverpool fans would have been forced on to the pitch and the police's response (as they were treating it as a pitch invasion at this point) would have almost certainly been to drive them back off it with force thus sending thousands of panicked people back down the narrow tunnel. And you only have to look at the Berlin Love Parade last year to know how dangerous that would have been. There could easily have been as much fatalities/injuries if the cages had never been there.

 

The cages were about as much "the real reason" as a car is "the real reason" as to why people get run over. Way too simplistic

Edited 18 October, 2011 by JackFrost

[um pahars]

I have no reason to specifically doubt the findings of the Taylor report, but, at a philosophical level, isn't blind faith that any given official report is 100% correct as blinkered as someone who choses point blank to believe it?

 

A report produced by a human being isn't guaranteed to be 100% accurate all of the time I would venture.

 

As I say, I've no reason to doubt any aspect of the Taylor report per se.

 

I would quite agree, and I have no problem with people coming to their own opinion or viewpoint about any number of issues.

 

But I think it would be somewhat more acceptable if they had taken time to review and evaluate the evidence involved, as opposed to just trotting out so many of the myths that have been spun over the years.

[The Kraken]

"My terms of reference are extremely wide".

 

And you have obviously not read the Report if you don't think he doesn't blame the Police, "the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control" or the ground.

 

UP, you seem to have a grasp of what Lord Justice Taylor's report covered, and where is placed the blame. Unfortunate that others don't even seem to have read it, yet feel fanastically placed to throw around unfounded accusations totally at odds with the one report which did not rely on atrociously misleading press headlines and instead used more evidence than any other enquiry to date.

 

It's also unfortunate that, with massive amounts of evidence from that day still unavailable and so many unanswered questions as to why the procedures that should have prevented this terrrible disaster were either missed, ignored or bypassed, there should even be the question of why this is happening?

 

There's no re-writing of history; as per Taylor's report, the failure of police control was the cause of this disaster. The nature and state of the dilapidated stadium, and the behaviour of the fans, exacerbated the problem. No-one is looking to change that outcome, just to have access to all of the documents that surrounded the investigation at the time and have since been buried. And ask some questions, such as why did the coroner's investigation rule out anything that happened in the ground after 3.16pm, and only consider events prior to that?

 

I fail to see why this is a bad thing, there are still huge amounts of unanswered questions and without doubt IMO some form of cover up. Exposing that is no bad thing.

[um pahars]

Its easy to blame the police. but i suspect some of the liverpool fans behaviour added to the situation that day.

 

Taylor is quite clear that the main factor was the "the actions of the Police" and I think you may have been somewhat harsh on him if you think that came easy to him. If anything, I would have thought he found it quite difficult to rule that a part of the establishment was mainly to blame (which leads on to the conspiracy issues where other parts of the esatblishment were only too happy to try and exonerate the Police and pass the blame elsewhere, which is where the recent debate is focussed).

 

And Talyor does not shy away from stating that he believed actions of the fans played their part as well, it's all clear in the report and subsequent analysis.

[The Kraken]

I have no reason to specifically doubt the findings of the Taylor report, but, at a philosophical level, isn't blind faith that any given official report is 100% correct as blinkered as someone who choses point blank to believe it?

 

A report produced by a human being isn't guaranteed to be 100% accurate all of the time I would venture.

 

As I say, I've no reason to doubt any aspect of the Taylor report per se.

 

We can only currently rely upon the Taylor Report, as it is the one document that relies upon a wealth of information none of us have been privy to.

 

Is that in itself not even more justifcation to have access to the unrestricted documents? Which is what this whole campaign has been about.

[alpine_saint]

Don't think it's that at all. Liverpool has a keen sense of social solidarity, in which the community will take on the cause of individuals.

 

Funny. People go on about not knowing their neighbours, or a lack of community.

 

You've got places like Liverpool that'll stick together when they feel they've been wronged ( and whatever else you might feel about Hillsborough, the fact that the authorities put themselves before the people who suffered is a grievous wrong ). So that's self-pity and arrogance, is it?

 

I call it looking out for your fellow man. It's a crying shame there isn't more of it in the south.

 

I have spent a huge amount of time in the North-West, since I studied there and went out with a girl there for a few years too. Though I must admit more of it was on the Manchester side.

 

You are absolutely right about sense of community and social solidarity up there, and I agree that its a pity that there isnt more of that in the South.

 

But, and it is a big but, the wallowing in self-pity IS a uniquely Liverpool thing. Sorry, the people in the other large cities in the area, like Manchester, simply arent like that at all. Do we still hear bleating about the Warrington or Arndale bombs ?

[alpine_saint]

We can only currently rely upon the Taylor Report, as it is the one document that relies upon a wealth of information none of us have been privy to.

 

Is that in itself not even more justifcation to have access to the unrestricted documents? Which is what this whole campaign has been about.

 

Its a reasonable argument. I just fear the main reason this is being pushed for is to bash the police further (more compensation ????)

 

If it has materially been proven already that the police were the "main" cause, as UmP keeps going on about, I think it is reasonable that the document release is a footbote to history, and not a reason for a further round of damages claims.

Edited 18 October, 2011 by alpine_saint

[The Kraken]

Its a reasonable argument. I just fear the main reason this is being pushed for is to bash the police further (more compensation ????)

 

I truly don't believe that to be the case. The interim Taylor Report (the final report only dealt with recommendations for stadium safety) was actually well received by the families and those associated with them; there are a few holes and minor criticisms of it but overall it is still held up and considered as an effective investigation of what led up to the day and why it occured.

 

The subsequent inquests, however, stopped well short of a full analysis of everything that happened trhoughout the day. There are far too many unanswered questions for me to list here, but questions such as why were 40 odd ambulances outside the stadium refused entry to help the injured/dying? Why did the coroner assume all 94 inside the stadium who died had perished prior to 3.16pm? Why therefore was no evidence from 3.16 onwards heard at the inquest?

 

The release of information is so that a full picture of the whole day can be pieced together. I don't believe it looks to blame police any further than the Taylor Report currently does, laying the cause of the disaster at their feet. It's just a thirst for information from people who've loved lost ones, and want to know exactly why.

[um pahars]

Its a reasonable argument. I just fear the main reason this is being pushed for is to bash the police further (more compensation ????)

 

If it has materially been proven already that the police were the "main" cause, as UmP keeps going on about, I think it is reasonable that the document release is a footbote to history, and not a reason for a further round of damages claims.

 

I believe the current issue is not another round of police bashing, nor an ambulance chase, but instead a push to get all the evidence in the public domain mainly to try and understand why/if people pushed/sanctioned the original myths/cover up (myths which appear to have stood the test of time if this thread is anything to go by).

 

The view (and I am not swayed either way until the evidence is out there) is that there was a widespread conspiracy (at least further than those officers onthe day) within the establishment to try and exonerate the police/authorities and to push the blame elsewhere and that this went to the top of the Establishment (including parts of the media).

[alpine_saint]

The view (and I am not swayed either way until the evidence is out there) is that there was a widespread conspiracy (at least further than those officers onthe day) within the establishment to try and exonerate the police/authorities and to push the blame elsewhere and that this went to the top of the Establishment (including parts of the media).

 

Why on earth would such a conspiracy have existed ?

 

Maggie didnt like Scousers ? Having a dig back at Derek Hatton and Liverpool's militancy ?

 

Its a bit hard to believe it would have gone further than senior officers in an arse-covering exercise...

[bridge too far]

Not sure if the Guardian article has been linked, but here's the opening paragraph

 

"The families of the 96, mostly young, people who died on the terraces of Hillsborough have waited 22 years, not only for the authorities culpable to acknowledge their responsibility. It has also taken this long for the families' cause to be understood by the public, who were largely taken in by false stories of drunken and ticketless fans, on to whom the South Yorkshire police sought to deflect blame from their own negligence."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/hillsborough-disaster-legacy-lies

[pap]

Why on earth would such a conspiracy have existed ?

 

Maggie didnt like Scousers ? Having a dig back at Derek Hatton and Liverpool's militancy ?

 

Its a bit hard to believe it would have gone further than senior officers in an arse-covering exercise...

 

Or, simply, that any failure of the police is ultimately the failure of the Government.

 

I'll be very interested to see how far up the chain of command it went. Certainly, the contrast.org site paints and interesting picture of the involvement of the West Midlands police in the cross-force review.

[pap]

Not sure if the Guardian article has been linked, but here's the opening paragraph

 

"The families of the 96, mostly young, people who died on the terraces of Hillsborough have waited 22 years, not only for the authorities culpable to acknowledge their responsibility. It has also taken this long for the families' cause to be understood by the public, who were largely taken in by false stories of drunken and ticketless fans, on to whom the South Yorkshire police sought to deflect blame from their own negligence."

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/hillsborough-disaster-legacy-lies

 

Well worth a read.

[The Kraken]

Its a bit hard to believe it would have gone further than senior officers in an arse-covering exercise...

 

I maybe agree that any cover-up was at the behest of senior officers (and there is certainly enough smoke to suggest that was certainly the case). I'm not sure how much further up the establishment it went; there is certainly an enormous amount of criticism of the manner in which the inquests and judicial reviews were conducted by senior judges and barristers, but whether there was influence brought to bear on them from within Government, I just don't know. It'll definitely be an interesting one to see either way.

 

I think the biggest wrong that can be put right, though, is the sensationalist press reporting, particularly from the inquest, which re-opened old wounds and laid a huge amount of accusations at the victims (and indeed the survivors) with absolutely no recourse or opportunity for rebuttal. And the press swarmed all over this, seizing on one-sided accusations from senior officers of a boozed up unstoppable army of fans being at fault, resulting in terrible headlines yet again. Any clarification in public perception as to exactly what happened throughout that whole day can only be a good thing.

Edited 18 October, 2011 by The Kraken

[pap]

I have spent a huge amount of time in the North-West, since I studied there and went out with a girl there for a few years too. Though I must admit more of it was on the Manchester side.

 

You are absolutely right about sense of community and social solidarity up there, and I agree that its a pity that there isnt more of that in the South.

 

But, and it is a big but, the wallowing in self-pity IS a uniquely Liverpool thing. Sorry, the people in the other large cities in the area, like Manchester, simply arent like that at all. Do we still hear bleating about the Warrington or Arndale bombs ?

 

Alps, you're starting with the "wallowing in self-pity" thing as if it's a point of truth. It isn't, it's offensive short-cutting and I don't accept it - even if that is Boris Johnson's assessment of the situation.

 

Frankly, living in Manchester doesn't qualify you to speak on Liverpool. It'd be like living in Pompey and expecting to get a balanced view of Southampton from the locals.

[landford.saint]

I was a Police officer in quietest rural Devon at the time. The amount of what we quickly discovered was absolute bullsh!t propaganda that even we down there received, through 'Police Sources' and even Police Publications was incredible. There was one article in a Police Magazine (through a 15 year memory time gap) that described vans full of beer at the side of the road to Hillsborough selling already drunk fans with extra booze.

This and mountains more was the propaganda put out by various interested parties. Its no wonder that so many myths and inaccurate 'facts' are regurgitated, especially as time progresses.

My own personal view is that like so many tragedies it was a number of small often unrelated incidents that built up into a situation, that IF the policing on the day had been better could have been avoided, and not led to the ultimately fatal mistake of opening the Main Gates. However if Policing/Stewarding inside the Ground had been good disaster could still have been avoided.

[alpine_saint]

Alps, you're starting with the "wallowing in self-pity" thing as if it's a point of truth. It isn't, it's offensive short-cutting and I don't accept it - even if that is Boris Johnson's assessment of the situation.

 

Frankly, living in Manchester doesn't qualify you to speak on Liverpool. It'd be like living in Pompey and expecting to get a balanced view of Southampton from the locals.

 

You forget that I wasnt a "local" in the North-west, so I dont accept your analogy. I made my own observations, I didnt go on the opinion of those around me, since they were clearly biased.

 

And I am compeltely unaware of what Boris Johnson has said on the matter.

[Foxstone]

Taylor is quite clear that the main factor was the "the actions of the Police" and I think you may have been somewhat harsh on him if you think that came easy to him. If anything, I would have thought he found it quite difficult to rule that a part of the establishment was mainly to blame (which leads on to the conspiracy issues where other parts of the esatblishment were only too happy to try and exonerate the Police and pass the blame elsewhere, which is where the recent debate is focussed).

 

And Talyor does not shy away from stating that he believed actions of the fans played their part as well, it's all clear in the report and subsequent analysis.

 

 

And I think this tragedy was a culmination of many years of fan behaviour !

 

In those times of course ( as many of us from a certain age will testify), Football hooliganism was endemic, fans were segregated in cages, stadium infrastructure was basic ( even at some of the biggest grounds) and crowd control was mainly aimed at keeping rival plans apart and not necessarily pointed towards the Health and Safety standards we see today.

 

The whole "set up" in football grounds and in the wider public mindsets during the 1980's was a million miles away from what we see today, and I guess that when the outcomes of this latest release of papers is complete - We should be mindful that all this happened at a completely different time than now!

[Thedelldays]

Just speaking to one of the lads at work who's uncle was there that day.. he said he was told by his uncle that is was utter chaos outside, there were more liverpool fans than what they could cope with and many who did not have tickets.....he knew this as there were god knows how many begging to buy tickets off people outside....as for why liverpool had that end ofthe ground....the reason he was told was that liverpool fans were brought in from one way and forest fans the other....they were given said ends so they did not cross each other en masse........he said he was lucky as he got in and was down the side of the stand...but my mates uncle told him that there were simply too many liverpool fans there that day......and the police simply fecked it up royally

[pap]

You forget that I wasnt a "local" in the North-west, so I dont accept your analogy. I made my own observations, I didnt go on the opinion of those around me, since they were clearly biased.

 

And I am compeltely unaware of what Boris Johnson has said on the matter.

 

So what evidence did you use in coming up with your observations?

 

Put it this way. I live in Liverpool, and apart from a couple of sojourns down south, have done so since 1994. My missus is a scouser, as are the kids and all the in-laws. I spent three years studying here, six years working alongside scousers and I still live here now.

 

Now, I'm not saying that I have never seen someone play the victim. Happens about as much as it does everywhere else. However, you're generalising to the point where it appears you're ascribing these qualities to the entire city.

 

So I'm telling you that you're wrong based on experience of living in Liverpool for over 15 years. What is the basis of your observations?

[Viking Warrior]

Um Pahars thanks for your comment. I will try and make time to fully read the taylor report

 

Trouble with these things is that with the passing of time the truth has become such an illusive commodaty where a plausable alternative may be the only safe "spin" to put upon any particular scenario perceived as sensitive or personal and non of anyone elses business.

[Ken Tone]

I just read a report on the Guardain site, that has highlighted that the grounds safety certificate was out-of-date, and that South Yorks Police, SWFC and Sheffied Council were sued and paid damages over this.

 

So why in f**ks name is this still going on now ? Surely the payment of damages is an admission of culpability ?

 

I think if you lose a loved family member it is a natural reaction to want to know exactly how and why. As a I understand it ,all the familes want is to see all the details. I do not believe they are seeking any financial gain, ut they might want to see certain individuals accept blame if they were at fault and that was covered up. Wouldn't you feel the same?

 

Thee have been pages and pages of analysis and speculation over this tragedy. The consensus view eventually came to be that --

 

a) Lots of Liverpool fans turned up late because of road works on the route, and therefore lots were trying to get into the gound in a rush as the game kicked off.

b) Ironically the police decided the situation outside the ground was therefore dangerous, with a risk of crushing, so opened the turnstiles/gates.

c) However those entering the ground were all funnelled into a couple of pens in the middle of the stand, so although the numbers were below the capacity of the stand, many were squashed together in a few cages.

d) As the tragedy unfolded the police response was still to treat it as a crowd control problem didn't open any gates in the fences and indeed may even have prevented some fans from climbing out to safety. This to menay epole is the main area in which the police were to blame -- treating victims as hooligans.

 

There is no evidence as far as I am aware, that large numbers of Liverpool fans were there without tickets, any more than happens at any other game, nor that large numbers were drunk, any more than at any other game. In any event as I say the number inside the ground was below capacity.

 

Those of you who are too young, will not realise the extent to which many grounds were a series of cages. It was not just a matter of perimeter fences. There were also fences running down the stands, diving the stand up into smaller pens.

[Huffton]

I don't usually go the abusive route but Alpine, STFU, seriously, you haven't got a clue.

Although born in Southampton, and living here now, I was brought up in Liverpool. I was 14/15 at the time of the match. I can remember it like it was yesterday.

First of all reports came through that there had been a pitch invasion, but then it got far more sinister until the full horror finally hit. The confusion was immense, no mobile phones back then remember. People being told there sons and daughters were OK only to find out they were actually dead, and the other way round. I had friends at the game, thank God they all made it home again.

This isn't about damages, or whining or whatever else you want to level at it. Its about closure, for people who have had 22 years of not knowing why their loved ones didn't come back from a football match.