Would You Keep Hooiveld?

[Lighthouse]

Jos is on loan until January, but would you try and keep him beyond that? Personally I've been quite impressed. He had a very shaky debut against Forest, but since then has looked a lot more assured on the ball and dominant in the air. Playing much better than Fonte at this level IMO.

 

I'd certainly try and keep him till the end of the season, probably a loan extension. If we do get promotion we might want to reconsider, but for now he is a decent player.

[sfc4prem]

Yes. Give him a 2 year deal in Jan.

[Roger]

I feel we should give it til jan to decide as not seen enough yet and still unsure. Jaidi for me was more assured last year.

[Joesaint]

Yes

[Saint for ever]

Yes

[Jack]

I think he's been pretty good and his partnership with Fonte will keep improving. Worth keeping

[Badger]

Yes,is my initial view.But, much depends on how much Celtic want for him. If as reported they are seeking £2m then its questionable ,although if he forms a tight defence with Fonte then he is worth it for what he adds .

 

Danger is though if Celtic get rid of Lennon as speculated on the radio tonight then possibly a new man will want to look at him again.

[Nexstar]

Definitely

[SO16_Saint]

Yes, but he needs to learn to head the ball out of play rather than into the middle of the field to opposition players

[SO16_Saint]

Is it a loan with a perm fee/deal already agreed subject to SFC giving the nod, or is a perm fee yet to be agreed? Do we know?

[LGTL]

I've seen every game he's played - big yes from me.

[Thedelldays]

I remember the disgust when he signed

[1976_Child]

yes. but i echo the point about where he puts the ball after winning it. he is very strong at winning the ball but appears a tad quick to move it on sometimes. it does appear that he is well liked in the locker room too, which helps a lot

[Crab Lungs]

I remember the disgust when he signed

 

So true...

[Saint-Armstrong]

Yes. He's made all those idiots squealing about him coming in on Deadline Day look rather silly, good work Jos.

[latter day saint]

yes,if we can extended his loan untill the end of the season. see where we are then & if he keeps improving to whether we sign him.

[CB Fry]

Played well today, did very little wrong and plenty right. Plays it nicely out of defence.

 

He came in as an underwhelming signing, and fans were right to be underwhelmed because he was at least Adkins fourth choice centre back of the summer, and he had a less than inspiring record in the SPL. I have no idea why some people on this forum get so upset when every signing isn't greeted as a new messiah. If he never signed for Saints, no one would give two sh its about him, no idea why a man becomes an infallible god head the minute he signs a piece of paper to play football for us.

 

On today's evidence he certainly fits how we play, and may well merit an extension to the loan. Still don't see how that means no one is ever allowed to be anything other than schoolgirl estatic whenever we sign a player. I reserve the right to want players to actually do something before I wet my pants about them.

[Saint-Armstrong]

Played well today, did very little wrong and plenty right. Plays it nicely out of defence.

 

He came in as an underwhelming signing, and fans were right to be underwhelmed because he was at least Adkins fourth choice centre back of the summer, and he had a less than inspiring record in the SPL. I have no idea why some people on this forum get so upset when every signing isn't greeted as a new messiah. If he never signed for Saints, no one would give two sh its about him, no idea why a man becomes an infallible god head the minute he signs a piece of paper to play football for us.

 

On today's evidence he certainly fits how we play, and may well merit an extension to the loan. Still don't see how that means no one is ever allowed to be anything other than schoolgirl estatic whenever we sign a player. I reserve the right to want players to actually do something before I wet my pants about them.

 

But surely on the same line, you can't wet your pants in frustration at him or at disgust of him being the 4th choice before you have seen him play?

[Colinjb]

Without doubt yes. Arguably been better then Fonte while with us. There is no better praise then that.

[kipstryker]

For me yes

Had the pleasure of a quick chat with his (completely stunning ) good lady who intimated that he is both very happy here and keen to stay.

[Nutwood2]

It's a no brainer. What have we got to lose? He's a good reader of the game, is dominant in air and can play a bit. Why not?

[Ian the Red]

Played very well against Derby, indeed has improved with every game. Jaidi is not good enough for this league. Has to be signed in January with another CB and a goal scorer

[CB Fry]

But surely on the same line, you can't wet your pants in frustration at him or at disgust of him being the 4th choice before you have seen him play?

 

 

This cuts to the heart of the issue.

 

I was excited when we signed De Ridder. Never even heard of him before. Was excited about Danny Fox, have to say never knowingly seen him play. Thought Gorkss would have been a good signing but again, can't say I've ever remember seeing him.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a feeling about a player.

 

The main issue here is that for everyone, the idea of "lets see how he gets on" is not the preserve of the happy clappers. It's what everyone thinks. But people should be allowed to be underwhelmed without being set upon by a load of happy clappy bedwetting hysterics desperate to stamp out anything other than "he's a super duper super Saint and I love him already".

[hypochondriac]

This cuts to the heart of the issue.

 

I was excited when we signed De Ridder. Never even heard of him before. Was excited about Danny Fox, have to say never knowingly seen him play. Thought Gorkss would have been a good signing but again, can't say I've ever remember seeing him.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a feeling about a player.

 

The main issue here is that for everyone, the idea of "lets see how he gets on" is not the preserve of the happy clappers. It's what everyone thinks. But people should be allowed to be underwhelmed without being set upon by a load of happy clappy bedwetting hysterics desperate to stamp out anything other than "he's a super duper super Saint and I love him already".

 

So so true. Why anyone would think that another fan would want jos to do badly is mental as well.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

This player has done pretty well for us, but I'm not quite so sure I see him being a big success at a higher level - a question that will only arise should we get there of course. If Celtic are really holding out for the reported £2m for him then we might well be able to find better value - and a better player - elsewhere.

 

In the meantime a good addition to the squad.

[LeBenali]

I'd certainly extend it until the end of the season, unless a genuine Prem-class defender became available (which is unlikey). He's played well enough to earn his place in the team, and probably wouldn't be worth the potential trouble of breaking up our central defensive partnership halfway through the season.

[um pahars]

This cuts to the heart of the issue.

 

I was excited when we signed De Ridder. Never even heard of him before. Was excited about Danny Fox, have to say never knowingly seen him play. Thought Gorkss would have been a good signing but again, can't say I've ever remember seeing him.

 

There is nothing wrong with having a feeling about a player.

 

The main issue here is that for everyone, the idea of "lets see how he gets on" is not the preserve of the happy clappers. It's what everyone thinks. But people should be allowed to be underwhelmed without being set upon by a load of happy clappy bedwetting hysterics desperate to stamp out anything other than "he's a super duper super Saint and I love him already".

 

And let's not forget that this is the anonymous ether of the interweb and daring to post your own opinion, be non plussed or even underwhelmed should not be confused with a lack of support at an actual football match.

 

Once a player pulls on the shirt, then they will always get my full support at a match, despite any reservations I may have about their ability or contribution to the team (OK, I did berate Steve Baker for a while after that terrible 1988 match!!).

 

I'd rather take that approach as opposed to switching from singing "There's Only One Alan Pardew" to "Cortese, whoooah, Cortese whooah" over the course of a season.

 

 

As for the player himself, well the juries still out for me and would wait a bit longer before committing one way or the other (I still need convincing you see). And as others have touched upon, it also depends on the fee and what other alternatives there are in the market come January or June. At the moment I certainly would not say he is player who we need to get signed up PDQ before someone else comes sniffing or Celtic change their mind.

Edited 16 October, 2011 by um pahars

[Thedelldays]

And let's not forget that this is the anonymous ether of the interweb and daring to post your own opinion, be non plussed or even underwhelmed should not be confused with a lack of support at an actual football match.Once a player pulls on the shirt, then they will always get my full support at a match, despite any reservations I may have about their ability or contribution to the team (OK, I did berate Steve Baker for a while after that terrible 1988 match!!). I'd rather take that approach as opposed to switching from singing "There's Only One Alan Pardew" to "Cortese, whoooah, Cortese whooah" over the course of a season.

why do you HAVE to take a certain approach...what is wrong with just seeing how they get on..?I was a little sceptical but some (quite a bit) of the reaction on here to his signing was daft..........then again, this place hardly represents saints fans in general..just us loonies talking crap...

[um pahars]

why do you HAVE to take a certain approach...what is wrong with just seeing how they get on..?I was a little sceptical but some (quite a bit) of the reaction on here to his signing was daft..........then again, this place hardly represents saints fans in general..just us loonies talking crap...

 

Read C B Fry's posts #18 & #24 as I think it sums it up excellently.

 

I was excited about Do Prado and De Ridder, I was underwhelmed by Forte and Hooiveld, yet had about as much knowledge on one lot as I did on the other. It's an opinion based on close to feck all and espoused on the noddy interweb.

 

All four got and still get my full support when they play (and will be more than happy to post I had misjudged them, as I did with Shearer, when they start turning in match winning performances).

[shurlock]

Read C B Fry's posts #18 & #24 as I think it sums it up excellently.

 

I was excited about Do Prado and De Ridder, I was underwhelmed by Forte and Hooiveld, yet had about as much knowledge on one lot as I did on the other. It's an opinion based on close to feck all and espoused on the noddy interweb.

 

All four got and still get my full support when they play (and will be more than happy to post I had misjudged them, as I did with Shearer, when they start turning in match winning performances).

 

Its a matter of degree - some players attract more attention and excitement than others (though unfortunately that's usually when the cash has been splashed).

 

Lots of emotive nonfootballing factors account for the reaction a new signing gets. Others might meet caution and scepticism - fair enough but it remains that the reaction to Jos was a joke - just take a look at how many threads were started and how much invective was thrown at him before he had even kicked a ball. Jos has still got a lot to prove and I'm still not sold that we should sign him up in Jan (saying that apart from Gerrard, no opposing CB has really stood out for me, so its not exactly a buyers market).

 

What I will say about Jos, though, is that he's easily our 2nd best CB, so is a net improvement on what we currently have in the building (as a loanee - can we ask anymore?) and his performances have been a far cry from the apocalyptic garbage that had been predicted on here. And some posters on here have been made to look very foolish.

Edited 16 October, 2011 by shurlock

[um pahars]

Its a matter of degree - some players attract more attention and excitement than others (though unfortunately that's usually when the cash has been splashed).

 

And it might also be the position a player plays, in that forwards often attract more of a positive spin as opposed to strapping, kick 'em up in the air centre halfs (although that doesn't account for my underwhleming emotions when we signed Forte and loaned in that other forward who so underwhlemed me that I've forgotten his name already).

 

But why does posting your initial gut feel on here, whether it be one of being underwhlemed, or one of great enthusiasm mean so much? It's a nothing opinion, posted by anonymous people on the ether of the interweb that will not influence how the player performs or impact our success one way or the other.

 

Football has been about holding and espousing different opinions for years, but for some reason some people seem to get all worked up that someone might have an opinion that is different from theirs.

 

What I will say about Jos, though, is that he's easily our 2nd best CB, so is a net improvement on what we currently have in the building (as a loanee - can we ask anymore?) and his performances have been a far cry from the apocalyptic garbage that had been predicted on here.

 

And some posters on here have been made to look very foolish.

 

Looking in from the outside, Hooiveld appeared to be way down on Adkins list when we were looking to strengthen over the summer, so even though he is now our second best centre half (TBH he only has Martin to compete against!!!), I don't see anything wrong with suggesting we might be needing to look again come January.

 

He's only started six league games, and looked shaky in a few of them, so it is a bit early to judge him either way. And as for your last line, I do struggle with the reasoning and sentiments (and that's not because he's only played six games), but more because the tone and thrust is just so unwarranted and unnecessary on a message board where people shouldn't be berated because they felt something different.

[Golden Balls]

Back to the subject.

 

I'm still to be convinced. I don't think he's a bad player at all. I just don't feel comfortable with him. Not sure why. Maybe all that's stuck in my head is the errors he's made (particularly Cardiff) and not the good things he's done.

 

I have seen all but one league game that he's played.

[shurlock]

And it might also be the position a player plays, in that forwards often attract more of a positive spin as opposed to strapping, kick 'em up in the air centre halfs (although that doesn't account for my underwhleming emotions when we signed Forte and loaned in that other forward who so underwhlemed me that I've forgotten his name already).

 

But why does posting your initial gut feel on here, whether it be one of being underwhlemed, or one of great enthusiasm mean so much? It's a nothing opinion, posted by anonymous people on the ether of the interweb that will not influence how the player performs or impact our success one way or the other.

 

Football has been about holding and espousing different opinions for years, but for some reason some people seem to get all worked up that someone might have an opinion that is different from theirs.

 

 

 

Looking in from the outside, Hooiveld appeared to be way down on Adkins list when we were looking to strengthen over the summer, so even though he is now our second best centre half (TBH he only has Martin to compete against!!!), I don't see anything wrong with suggesting we might be needing to look again come January.

 

He's only started six league games, and looked shaky in a few of them, so it is a bit early to judge him either way. And as for your last line, I do struggle with the reasoning and sentiments (and that's not because he's only played six games), but more because the tone and thrust is just so unwarranted and unnecessary on a message board where people shouldn't be berated because they felt something different.

 

Of course, nobody knows whether Jos was 4th choice - NA did say in interview that they did enquire about him earlier but were put off by the price. Of course, whether he was first or last choice shouldn't matter if he does the biz on the pitch and as I say and the bit you don't quote, Im still to be convincedhe's a long-term answer at CB and that there don't exist better options on the market - though my question then is who?

 

Finally, yes its a forum and I'm happy that people hold different opinions - but just as in the real world, you need to back them up and are ultimately accountable for them. Otherwise the whole spirit of a debate between equals breaks downs. We're all sometimes right and sometimes wrong - and when we're wrong and couch our opinions in extreme terms, we look foolish. There's nothing personal or particularly antagonistic in that.

 

By contrast, the idea that you can shoot your mouth off and act a knob just because you can hide behind the anonymity of the web is wrong. I've always been taught the fact you know can get away with things is precisely the reason you should show greater rather than less restraint - that is if you genuinely believe in diversity of opinion rather than invoke it selectively when someone turns around and serves you your own bitter medicine.

[View From The Top]

Like most I was totally underwhelmed when he signed but he's getting better and better so, yes, I would sign him.

[um pahars]

Of course, nobody knows whether Jos was 4th choice - NA did say in interview that they did enquire about him earlier but were put off by the price. Of course, whether he was first or last choice shouldn't matter if he does the biz on the pitch and as I say and the bit you don't quote, Im still to be convincedhe's a long-term answer at CB and that there don't exist better options on the market - though my question then is who?

 

Finally, yes its a forum and I'm happy that people hold different opinions - but just as in the real world, you need to back them up and are ultimately accountable for them. Otherwise the whole spirit of a debate between equals breaks downs. We're all sometimes right and sometimes wrong - and when we're wrong and couch our opinions in extreme terms, we look foolish. There's nothing personal or particularly antagonistic in that.

 

By contrast, the idea that you can shoot your mouth off and act a knob just because you can hide behind the anonymity of the web is wrong. I've always been taught the fact you know can get away with things is precisely the reason you should show greater rather than less restraint - that is if you genuinely believe in diversity of opinion rather than invoke it selectively when someone turns around and serves you your own bitter medicine.

 

Basically, I just disagree that someone should be called foolish just because their initial opinion of a player turns out to be a littel bit wide of the mark.

 

And in the example of Hooiveld it's way too early to even consider whether he's a good, bad or an indifferent signing, and I certainly wouldn't call someone who was optimistic about his signing a fool if his form slips away and he has a few stinkers.

[Toadhall Saint]

Personally I think he's been better than Fonte when I've seen him play.

[shurlock]

Basically, I just disagree that someone should be called foolish just because their initial opinion of a player turns out to be a littel bit wide of the mark.

 

And in the example of Hooiveld it's way too early to even consider whether he's a good, bad or an indifferent signing, and I certainly wouldn't call someone who was optimistic about his signing a fool if his form slips away and he has a few stinkers.

 

Agree, you can be wrong and it doesn't warrant being called foolish and it doesn't mean you have to be subject to a witch hunt or called up on it. Of course, not. But neither is everyone as qualified or discrete in their comments as your posts or you assume others to be. With Jos it goes back to the simple fact that people were writing him off. Being sceptical is one thing -fair enough- but dismissing him in OTT language without even seeing him kick a ball is quite another.

[david in sweden]

Read C B Fry's posts #18 & #24 as I think it sums it up excellently.

 

I was excited about Do Prado and De Ridder, I was underwhelmed by Forte and Hooiveld, yet had about as much knowledge on one lot as I did on the other. It's an opinion based on close to feck all and espoused on the noddy interweb.

 

All four got and still get my full support when they play (and will be more than happy to post I had misjudged them, as I did with Shearer, when they start turning in match winning performances).

 

 

I've noticed that some contributors are often very judgmental about new / unknown / little-known players ,or some type of " journeyman " players... especially if they come from a team in a League inferior to our own.

But who can compare Dutch sides with CCC, or with SPL for that matter.

It's all down to the manager's choice, fitness, form and who else has the same shirt at the time.

Names come to mind are George O'Brien in the early 60's..Mark Dennis who was an outcast at several clubs only to become a hero figure under Lawrie Mac's guidance...and wasn't it Ian Branfoot who thought MLT inferior enough to exiled to the bench.

 

Only when a player gets a chance to shine in a side where he " fits in " can you make a good judgment.

On the evidence so far ..Jos seems to be a good prospect - irrespective of his past record / form .

 

Decades of history have shown us that some players who are " useless" in one club, become fan-favourites at another

 

If someone is " a Celtic reserve " doesn't mean he's no good, but simply not being chosen regularly

[toofarnorth]

We are very short on numbers at the moment with the injuries we have so I think an extra passenger on the bus is needed even if the others are back fit. If either Jos or Fonte gets injured we'd have to have a youth teamer on the bench.

[hypochondriac]

People are rewriting history again. At the time, there was only one example of a poster writing Jos off error he had kicked a ball. Everyone else who expressed a 'negative' opinion said they felt underwhelmed by the signing. That isn't anyone being wrong, it's an initial reaction based on what is available. Time and time again posters have been unable to tell the difference.

[Chez]

any news on Seaborne?

[S-Clarke]

I've been very impressed by him. He's so strong and uses his strength very well.

 

He can be a little casual in his distribution, but in terms of his reading of the game and his general positioning it's been faultless. Fonte has gone up a level after playing alongside him too, we look much more solid as he will win most things in the air.

[Barry the Badger]

Was a nice touch to see him waving some of the other players over to the fans yesterday after the match.

[The Cat]

Was a nice touch to see him waving some of the other players over to the fans yesterday after the match.

 

He seems to really love the support. Said on twitter after the game "great support we had out there, no chance to hear derby fans." Nice touch for him to get the other players over considering his only on loan.

 

Seeing as I'm a sucker for players clapping the fans I'd definitely sign him up.

[sperm_john]

massive yes, i follow him on twitter and he genuinly seems to care ...also seems to be good banter with him and the other lads, looks like theres a great team spirit at the moment and they made him welcome from day 1

[St_Tel49]

Played well today, did very little wrong and plenty right. Plays it nicely out of defence.

 

He came in as an underwhelming signing, and fans were right to be underwhelmed because he was at least Adkins fourth choice centre back of the summer, and he had a less than inspiring record in the SPL. I have no idea why some people on this forum get so upset when every signing isn't greeted as a new messiah. If he never signed for Saints, no one would give two sh its about him, no idea why a man becomes an infallible god head the minute he signs a piece of paper to play football for us.

 

On today's evidence he certainly fits how we play, and may well merit an extension to the loan. Still don't see how that means no one is ever allowed to be anything other than schoolgirl estatic whenever we sign a player. I reserve the right to want players to actually do something before I wet my pants about them.

It is not that we want him or anyone else to be greeted as the new messiah, its more that some people are far too damn quick to condemn a player for no other reason than they don't know anything about them. A willingness to reserve judgement is all that is being asked for.

[The Kraken]

It is not that we want him or anyone else to be greeted as the new messiah, its more that some people are far too damn quick to condemn a player for no other reason than they don't know anything about them. A willingness to reserve judgement is all that is being asked for.

 

Which is what the majority of people did. But despite that, anyone saying that they were even slightly skeptical about the signing (after having missed out on our previous targets) were jumped on as having written off the player completely before he'd played a game. Of course everyone was going to wait and see what he was actually like as a player before making their minds up; but the hysterical brigade couldn't see beyond that and made an issue where there really wasn't one.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

It is not that we want him or anyone else to be greeted as the new messiah, its more that some people are far too damn quick to condemn a player for no other reason than they don't know anything about them. A willingness to reserve judgement is all that is being asked for.

 

Well said. Most of the derision when he signed was quoting Celtic fans opinions on a player who had hardly played for them recently due to injury and being on loan. Bet they wish he was back with them now seeing as their defnce is looking pretty poor at the moment. Others dimissed the player due to their low opinion of Scottish football even though another signing Danny Fox played for Celtic not that long ago and his signing was welcomed. Anyway hope the loan is extended as he has looked decent so far.

[hypochondriac]

Which is what the majority of people did. But despite that, anyone saying that they were even slightly skeptical about the signing (after having missed out on our previous targets) were jumped on as having written off the player completely before he'd played a game. Of course everyone was going to wait and see what he was actually like as a player before making their minds up; but the hysterical brigade couldn't see beyond that and made an issue where there really wasn't one.

 

A thousand times this. No one wrote him off before he had played. If they had it was a very very very tiny minority (I think I saw one example on this entire forum.) people invent things that they want to be true in order to further their own argument or support their incorrect assumptions.

[RobM]

A thousand times this. No one wrote him off before he had played. If they had it was a very very very tiny minority (I think I saw one example on this entire forum.) people invent things that they want to be true in order to further their own argument or support their incorrect assumptions.

 

The trouble is that minority of idiots shout the loudest and the most often, so their opinions tend to spring to mind quickest. It's what this forum is all about.

 

And whilst I don't think many people openly wrote him off, there were too many (IMO) comments about how Celtic fans don't want him and are glad to see him go, about how we 'failed' to address our CB weakness and other such comments that didn't write him off, but we clearly putting him down before he had worn a Saints shirt.