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River Itchen frontage


spyinthesky

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Thats meant to be somewhere near the bridge. But like most things the council put forward, it wont happen.

 

Why should it be down to the council/private enterprise. That is what is so wrong with this country. We need a big society where people such as the Liebherr family leave a permanent memorial for all to enjoy for generations to come.

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Instead of constantly building how about landscaping the area. Far too much high rise monstrosities/yuppy flats and not enough philanthropy nowadays.

 

Agree with that. Southampton has miles of riverfront and very little public access to it apart from Mayflower park which is a dump (great location, lots of potential, but a dump). The city doesnt need /cant sustain more retail.

Edited by buctootim
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The whole Waterfront development idea, combined with a larger stadium, could explain the backdrop to NC's commitment to Southampton FC.

 

I have often wondered what is in it for him. Why would a succesful and (comparatively) wealthy Italian banker. choose to move himself and his family to the UK to run a mid-sized football team.

 

However if he is able to develop a significant towncentre waterfront enterpise consisting of leisure, commercial and property, which is closely alighned to a successful well-run Premier league football team with a sizable stadium an excellent academy and training facilities, it will be worth a lot of money.

 

Maybe at that point 5-7 years from now, the club and associated activities could be worth in excess of £100M, a profit of £90M for the Leibherrs. If he had negotiated himself a healthy percentage of any profit he could be in line for anwhere from £10M to £50M personal windfall whilst at the same time earning a healthy £600K/ year to do it.

 

This is not in anyway an anti-NC post, because if he could achieve all these thing Southampton would end up a world-class footballing set-up, which I would be delighted with. It could explain his references to a larger stadium, despite uncertainty over the absolute necessity for it.

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The whole Waterfront development idea, combined with a larger stadium, could explain the backdrop to NC's commitment to Southampton FC.

 

I have often wondered what is in it for him. Why would a succesful and (comparatively) wealthy Italian banker. choose to move himself and his family to the UK to run a mid-sized football team.

 

However if he is able to develop a significant towncentre waterfront enterpise consisting of leisure, commercial and property, which is closely alighned to a successful well-run Premier league football team with a sizable stadium an excellent academy and training facilities, it will be worth a lot of money.

 

Maybe at that point 5-7 years from now, the club and associated activities could be worth in excess of £100M, a profit of £90M for the Leibherrs. If he had negotiated himself a healthy percentage of any profit he could be in line for anwhere from £10M to £50M personal windfall whilst at the same time earning a healthy £600K/ year to do it.

 

This is not in anyway an anti-NC post, because if he could achieve all these thing Southampton would end up a world-class footballing set-up, which I would be delighted with. It could explain his references to a larger stadium, despite uncertainty over the absolute necessity for it.

 

Any high end flat / retail development would need a big site to redevelop (otherwise it would just be some nice flats surrounded by a football ground and run down light industry and wouldnt generate the highest sale prices. AFAIK Saints dont own any waterfront property, so the clubs only input / lever would be the SMS site - requiring relocation of the ground somewhere else. At current stadium build prices and selling prices of flats, I doubt that would make sense

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Agree with that. Southampton has miles of riverfront and very little public access to it apart from Mayflower park which is a dump (great location, lots of potential, but a dump). The city doesnt need /cant sustain more retail.

 

..and the area doesn't have the roads to be able to cope on a match day. Southampton is crying out for a tourist attraction so I say landscpae the area and build a Museum and independant restaurants and a marina with boat trips. There are thousands of cruise passengers in city and nothing for them to spend their money on. Pompey have built on their heritage and invested in creating a great tourist attraction, why can't Southampton do the same?

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I don't see why using things cafes, restaurants, offices, hotels etc would be an issue. These rules have been brought in to prevent unsustainable expenditure by clubs and relying on sugar daddy's. If clubs find new ways to increase revenue, I don't see why they shouldn't be included in the clubs turnover for the new regulations. They are sustainable long term revenue streams for the benefit of the club.

 

So, if "the Liebherr family" left a £5 million tip for a meal at one of these 'bonded' restaurants, that would fall under the radar...?

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So, if "the Liebherr family" left a £5 million tip for a meal at one of these 'bonded' restaurants, that would fall under the radar...?

 

Tips are for staff only, and are distinctly separate from a meal charge (in law); a restaurant would not be able to include a tip within its takings, or even withhold a tip from its staff, as that would be fraud. Services charges, though, might be different (I know they are different in law to a tip in the USA, not sure about here).

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Instead of constantly building how about landscaping the area. Far too much high rise monstrosities/yuppy flats and not enough philanthropy nowadays.

 

I believe you live out in the sticks somewhere up country so whatever's eventually built there in our 'city' probably wouldn't impact much on you. Southampton is already blessed with numerous central parks, if you want more trees and less buildings don't live in city centres, you have a choice. It's access to the waterfonts we need but any leisure developments aren't going to happen without the commercial engine of residential units. What Southampton needs to do is build higher (like most other city centres do around the world) and not the relatively low-rise, sprawling buildings that you usually see that just eat up all the ground space.

 

There's a big opportunity when eventually any redevelopment alongside the river happensand wil give Southampton a massive boost.

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The problem with the Itchen waterfront is that it's all used. Apart from the Town Depot, the rest of it is in use as boatyards or gravel wharfs.

 

The cost of relocating these businesses, especially Solent Aggregates which is a big site, would be considerable.

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The problem with the Itchen waterfront is that it's all used. Apart from the Town Depot, the rest of it is in use as boatyards or gravel wharfs.

 

The cost of relocating these businesses, especially Solent Aggregates which is a big site, would be considerable.

 

where do you move them to

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Agree with that. Southampton has miles of riverfront and very little public access to it apart from Mayflower park which is a dump (great location, lots of potential, but a dump). The city doesnt need /cant sustain more retail.

 

And within reason, I'm more than happy for it to stay that way.

 

Upgrade Mayflower Park, look in to access and facilities at Town Quay, Ocean Village and the SWAC Centre and that would be it for me. The Docks are a working environment providing employment and a very big wealth generator for the City, not a playground or a place for a quiet stroll.

 

Plenty of other areas to use with regards leisure and recreation along the other side of the Itchen and Test if you want a river frontage, but for me it will be a sad day when the docks stop working and are turned in to a "theme park".

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Plenty of other areas to use with regards leisure and recreation along the other side of the Itchen and Test if you want a river frontage, but for me it will be a sad day when the docks stop working and are turned in to a "theme park".

 

When you put it like that then I can't disagree. If you rip out the guts of a town you're just left with a corpse. It's happened/is happening in Gibraltar. 20 years ago it was dirtier and had ugly concret buildings, but it was real because the people who'd lived there for generations still lived there and I liked it. Today when you look at the plush new modern flats and penthouses costing upwards of 500K it's not good because in a few years time the whole place will have be taken over and the people displaced and it will have turned into another Puerto Banus.

 

That's why if is to be redeveloped i think it should an area for everyone to enjoy, not just a view from yuppy flats like ocean village.

Edited by dune
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That's why if is to be redeveloped i think it should an area for everyone to enjoy, not just a view from yuppy flats like ocean village.

 

The flats in Ocean Village are terrible, they really should have restricted it townhouses like the one I currently have. Having spent time in Ocean Village, I do think it was a poor use of port land and with ABP always on the look out, I would have no problem being compulsory purchased and the land out back to profitable economic use (assuming they pay me the £720,000 my pad is worth!!!).

 

That said, I do think we could (and should) have made more out of The Walls, the Old Town etc. I know we were up against it after the war, but some of the stuff we did back then (and since) have been so short sighted and really play down our history.

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Is there really an appetite for new eateries and shopping outlets in Southampton? I'd have thought this kind of scheme was viable prior to the GFC but in Southampton? Now?

 

I was of the mind that the city was one of the poorest in the south. It's all very well knocking up a few restaurants for the yachties to moor up beside but I dare say the Reebok classics wearing knuckledraggers would soon scare them off.

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I do think we could (and should) have made more out of The Walls, the Old Town etc. I know we were up against it after the war, but some of the stuff we did back then (and since) have been so short sighted and really play down our history.

 

Agree with this, the Bargate and the old walls are something special for tourists.It a shame clueless Royston and friends are wasting so much money on the Titanic museum.

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Is it just me, or is the obsession with the Titanic nauseating. It will be 100 years next year and we will hear no end of it. Everyone seems to forget that 1500+ people died, 550 of which were from Southampton. The impact on the city at the time must have been horrendous.

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Is it just me, or is the obsession with the Titanic nauseating. It will be 100 years next year and we will hear no end of it. Everyone seems to forget that 1500+ people died, 550 of which were from Southampton. The impact on the city at the time must have been horrendous.

 

Why?

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Southampton's town planning is shockingly bad, it's as if it's been designed by a 12 year old playing Sim City 2.0 who got bored half way through and decided to f*ck it all up on purpose.

 

Easily the biggest USP of the city is it's cruise liners and marine heritage yet there is nowhere where you can enjoy either. Ocean Village is a mess, Leisure World is an eyesore and this new Titanic museum will be sh!te. Probably some idiot trying to justify spending millions on a pointless new police station by sticking a museum where the old one was. Any Titanic museum should obviously be part of a major waterfront development, some sort of focal point to give the place an identity.

Edited by aintforever
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Southampton's town planning is shockingly bad, it's as if it's been designed by a 12 year old playing Sim City 2.0 who got bored half way through and decided to f*ck it all up on purpose.

 

Easily the biggest USP of the city is it's cruise liners and marine heritage yet there is nowhere where you can enjoy either. Ocean Village is a mess, Leisure World is an eyesore and this new Titanic museum will be sh!te. Probably some idiot trying to justify spending millions on a pointless new police station by sticking a museum where the old one was. Any Titanic museum should obviously be part of a major waterfront development, some sort of focal point to give the place an identity.

 

Couldn't agree more. Southampton is in the middle of a cruise war with Liverpool, crying foul that public money was spent in creating their terminal. I remember in the late 70's early 80's going to Liverpool and witnessing the biggest sh!thole I've ever seen but fast forward 25 years or so and it becomes European city of culture. Part of that was built on their unique music scene (Beatles etc) it's true but they spent fortunes redeveloping and renovating to become what is now a great city. We've got Ocean Village, they've got Albert Dock. Enough said.

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Couldn't agree more. Southampton is in the middle of a cruise war with Liverpool, crying foul that public money was spent in creating their terminal. I remember in the late 70's early 80's going to Liverpool and witnessing the biggest sh!thole I've ever seen but fast forward 25 years or so and it becomes European city of culture. Part of that was built on their unique music scene (Beatles etc) it's true but they spent fortunes redeveloping and renovating to become what is now a great city. We've got Ocean Village, they've got Albert Dock. Enough said.

 

Kriss, it is easy to criticise Soton Council but if someone gave you, me or most reasonable posters on here a multi billion pound war chest of free money to be spent on improving Soton I suspect we all would have done a pretty reasonable job of improving the city.

Look at how much EC and UK Govt money Liverpool has received in recent years compared to diddly squat down here and you may be able to understand the disparity

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Kriss, it is easy to criticise Soton Council but if someone gave you, me or most reasonable posters on here a multi billion pound war chest of free money to be spent on improving Soton I suspect we all would have done a pretty reasonable job of improving the city.

Look at how much EC and UK Govt money Liverpool has received in recent years compared to diddly squat down here and you may be able to understand the disparity

 

I'm not saying that it's not difficult and SEEDA did do very little for Southampton compared with the North-West counterpart for Liverpool but they had proper foresight and planning to get the loans and investment from Brussels. Look at the debacle of the Ice Rink, the Conference Centre. Remember Canute's Pavillion? We had perfectly good warehouse buildings, similar to Albert Dock in the Queens Dock and they pulled them down to build that metal monstrosity, which lasted what? 10 years? Southampton has one of the most important art collections in the country (outside of London) but a sh!tty little gallery in the Civic Centre where they can show less than a 5th of it at any one time.

 

I will defend Southampton at every opportunity because it is my home city but every thing that is built always takes years and always is half cock because of lack of funding or because the costs have rocketed because it takes years.

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Kriss

I am afraid it is nothing to do with foresight it is all to do with the Govts perception of the 'Rich' South versus the 'Poor' North

The amount of funding given to SEEDA for distribution in the South East was peanuts compared to that given to Merseyside and other areas in the north including South Yorkshire

Also Merseyside benefited from Objective One funding from the EC which pumped billions of £ into their economy, most of which was spent regenerating the city centre.

Even now they are getting more grant aid towards the biggest 'Titantic' event in the Uk next April. This will consist of a big open theatre event costing £2m most of which will be paid for by grants from the European Economic Development Fund and the Arts Council

Southampton has far more claim to the 'Titanic' disater than most but I can imagine the response from the Grant Agencies if the Council had the temerity to ask for any money to honour the hundreds of local people who perished. The final word would be ...OFF!!

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Kriss

I am afraid it is nothing to do with foresight it is all to do with the Govts perception of the 'Rich' South versus the 'Poor' North

The amount of funding given to SEEDA for distribution in the South East was peanuts compared to that given to Merseyside and other areas in the north including South Yorkshire

Also Merseyside benefited from Objective One funding from the EC which pumped billions of £ into their economy, most of which was spent regenerating the city centre.

Even now they are getting more grant aid towards the biggest 'Titantic' event in the Uk next April. This will consist of a big open theatre event costing £2m most of which will be paid for by grants from the European Economic Development Fund and the Arts Council

Southampton has far more claim to the 'Titanic' disater than most but I can imagine the response from the Grant Agencies if the Council had the temerity to ask for any money to honour the hundreds of local people who perished. The final word would be ...OFF!!

 

SEEDA weren't in control of massive sums, but it was still substantial funding. Having dealt with them over a number of years, I can happily confirm that they are a pretty shambolic outfit with a clueless management system, and it's no bad thing they are in the process of being wound up.

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the city council lack real vision - and the dynamism to make anything happen!

 

firstly they need to deliver the arts quarter in and around the guildhall square - turn the old cinema /square balloon into a discovery centre with the city library, a gallery and performance space like the one in winchester - add a cafe or two as well - they turn the old plummers building into an art gallery to house the city's art collection - and put all of it on show (its a real hidden treasure) - build the two new building and relocate the University and Solent University are galleries there - and refound the Gantry Arts Centre there as well

 

with the library and gallery moved they could turn the whole of the civic centre into a museum - with a Titanic wing and Spifire wing and all that stuff!

 

problem is it all takes cash - and all Labour's went up North and now the Conservatives wont spend any - and SEEDA was a waste of time - Southampton is in South Central England or Wessex - not South East England and is certainly not subsidiary to Guildford which is where SEEDA was based and focused

 

face it Southampton is a working class industrial city in the rural conservative South - part of the working class urban south coast based around the solent -an island of red in a sea of blue politically - no one wants to admit it exists

 

up north they have no idea that there is any industry or working class south of London - the rural conservatives in the south dont care about it - and neither did a northern focused Labour

 

harsh maybe - but there is some truth in it

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Difference is Gibraltar is a tax haven for anyone with more than 1M deposited in a Gibraltar bank, the only stipulation to qualify for cat1 tax status is that you have a gib address. - is Southampton Itchen likely to become a tax haven? ;-) LOL

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SEEDA weren't in control of massive sums, but it was still substantial funding. Having dealt with them over a number of years, I can happily confirm that they are a pretty shambolic outfit with a clueless management system, and it's no bad thing they are in the process of being wound up.

 

You are right about the funding. The sums allocated to SEEDA under the European Economic Development Fund between 2000 and 2006 was approx 4% of the total allocated to Merseyside and the North West

If you look at the NWDA's funding programme you will be amazed at some of the crazy schemes they funded. Worst of all they didnt seem to have any proper check regarding the benefit of the funding

SEEDA, like all the Regional Development Agency Quango's, was a bureaucratic nonsense and it is a good thing they have all been wound up

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Trouble is all the 'developments' are aimed at clawing in money from new residential units or funding art-based buildings that a minority of interested people are going to visit. What Southampton needs is one or two key innovative attractions that will stand the test of time and attract new visitors into the City. Dare I say it, but Pimpley have got that well sorted out with the joint attraction of Gunwharf and the Tower. What have our Councillors to offer? Look at the future developments and they are a complete joke.

 

Two key developments I would put right at the top of the list alongside the Royal Pier development would be (a) a monorail that links the City Centre with the water front (stops at least at Central Station, West Quay, Royal Pier, Shamrock Quay and SMS) and (b) a large viewing tower of some kind, but one that shadows the Spinnaker by having eating places etc. incorporated - we need to compete strongly. If you think about the revenue the Itchen Bridge generates, both these ideas would be very attractive private business propositions.

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Two key developments I would put right at the top of the list alongside the Royal Pier development would be (a) a monorail that links the City Centre with the water front (stops at least at Central Station, West Quay, Royal Pier, Shamrock Quay and SMS) and (b) a large viewing tower of some kind, but one that shadows the Spinnaker by having eating places etc. incorporated - we need to compete strongly. If you think about the revenue the Itchen Bridge generates, both these ideas would be very attractive private business propositions.

 

We should build one of these. Went up it and ate on xmas day last year, the whole experience was amazing, being able to eat whilst slowly rotating and admiring the views (admittedly loads of the view was of Eastern German tower blocks but still, I was impressed)

 

http://www.tv-turm.de/en/index.php

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Two key developments I would put right at the top of the list alongside the Royal Pier development would be (a) a monorail that links the City Centre with the water front (stops at least at Central Station, West Quay, Royal Pier, Shamrock Quay and SMS) and (b) a large viewing tower of some kind, but one that shadows the Spinnaker by having eating places etc. incorporated - we need to compete strongly. If you think about the revenue the Itchen Bridge generates, both these ideas would be very attractive private business propositions.

 

The problem with that is that Southampton is a thoroughly ugly city; you'd get an averhead view of the industrial docks and fawley power station! Hardly massively appealing right now.

 

We missed the boat with Ocean Village, that should have been Gunwharf. Since then we've lacked massively behind. The Echo today has a story on the final design of the Spitfire monument, which is a start, but we need much much more. The devotion to housing above infrastructure really does us no favours at all

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The problem with that is that Southampton is a thoroughly ugly city; you'd get an averhead view of the industrial docks and fawley power station! Hardly massively appealing right now.

 

We missed the boat with Ocean Village, that should have been Gunwharf. Since then we've lacked massively behind. The Echo today has a story on the final design of the Spitfire monument, which is a start, but we need much much more. The devotion to housing above infrastructure really does us no favours at all

 

Couldn't be any worse than the view you get from the Spinnaker. Other than looking down on HMS Victory the rest is just a sh*thole. If it's high enough you would get a reasonable view, forest across Southampton Water, IOW beyond Fawley's chimneys (that look quite spectacular all lit up at night tbf) and great views of the big ships. Build more nice shiny towers like the one proposed for Ocean Village (would be Southampton's most striking building) and they'd catch the eye from up there. Build upwards, the higher the better as far as I'm concerned. Have a look what's proposed for Liverpool, spectacular.

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a large viewing tower of some kind, but one that shadows the Spinnaker by having eating places etc. incorporated

 

Agree.

 

But if it was built next to the stadium in any redevelopment of the riverside you just know Don Cortese would wangle a tower-tax if you could see the action ;)

 

And we've all seen the benefits the Spinnaker has brought to p*rtsea island including the possibility of watching Premier League football next season with a decent pair of binoculars looking West.

 

 

 

 

This thread is Lounge-bound any time soon

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One minor issue with any kind of tower in that area - it would be right on the approach for the airport and so simply wouldn't happen. Aircraft are at approximately 900ft over the stadium, just 3 miles from the runway so no significant tower could realistically be built there.

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One minor issue with any kind of tower in that area - it would be right on the approach for the airport and so simply wouldn't happen. Aircraft are at approximately 900ft over the stadium, just 3 miles from the runway so no significant tower could realistically be built there.

 

I don't know what the maximum height of buildings are allowed under the flightpath there but I believe planning consent has been granted for a 25 story building further back by the Itchen Bridge and 3 similar towers on the other side of the river on the Vosper site. There's also the 27 storey recently proposed for Ocean Village nearby. Any viewing tower would probably need to be significantly higher so if there was to be one it would have to part of the Town Quay area really.

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One minor issue with any kind of tower in that area - it would be right on the approach for the airport and so simply wouldn't happen. Aircraft are at approximately 900ft over the stadium, just 3 miles from the runway so no significant tower could realistically be built there.

 

I think the idea of a tower is great.

However pompey got theirs underwritten by Lottery Grants and an ongoing expensense on local ratepayers revenue. In fact there was a big debate on this at the time as not all Pompey residents wanted their money spent this way. I think the actual revenue from visitors is way below projections but, of course, there are knock on effects to local businesses from visitors who just want to visit and look.

If you consider two examples of commercial towers that I know of in the UK ie the Post Office (now BT Tower) and the one in Liverpool, both had revolving restaurants and both are now used for other purposes so perhaps the business model is not right over here or the Berlin Tower is subsidised in some way.

I agree with Kraken ,much as I like living here, there is no real architecture of merit.

The Council has grand plans (I've seen them) but it costs money and, without massive grant aid available to cities north of the M4, any project has to be commercially funded. Not easy when the banks are pursuing a tight fiscal policy

Many people complain about Ikea but the council would no doubt consider the benefits of siting the store in the City centre as i) it brings in a fair proportion of people from outside the city to spend money in retail outlets and ii) it provides business rate income to the city to the benefit of residents (the annoying thing here is all Business rate income goes up to London for Govt redistribution back to Local Authorities. The so called 'rich south' gets less than than they contribute. The 'poor north' gets more

I think, for the moment at least, in comparison to the likes of Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham etc we have to put up with a better climate, more parks and (Hopefully) a relatively successful football team whilst they may enjoy more iconic buildings

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having been working with the future southampton group(part of business solent) there is a lot of projects in the pipeline alot of which will soon get published.....but my practice did some off the wall ideas which did raise some eyebrows. some of the ideas would possible be upto 50 years in coming,but it did open the eyes of the city planners and some of the polticians as to what could be achieved.

heres a link to facebook and our old company

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1212278041374&set=a.1212269841169.2027617.1661478054&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1212278001373&set=a.1212269841169.2027617.1661478054&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1212277441359&set=a.1212269841169.2027617.1661478054&type=1&theater

 

these were ideas born out of frustation that southampton had a distinct lack of vision....for me southampton is an important gateway to the world and should be treated as such.

 

i am excited about some of the ideas that are coming out about the itchen riverside

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minime

 

Have seen your proposals and rate them as really good

However it is the funding that's the problem

It is easy to blame the Council (been there myself) but they do struggle to get the finance

Maybe selling off some of the Art collection is a decent option

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