City sizes and support

[Matthew Le God]

Ahh Sunderland, good example. Isn't their record crowd at Roker Park 75k or something. Evidence of a huge potential fanbase compared to Saints record crowd at tthe Dell of a huge 31k.

 

evidence? Well Id like to see a history of crowds in the past to suggest the fan base is there, 75k like Sunderland once had would be good. Waiting lists for season tickets when we peaked in 2003, how many disappointed fans had their faces pressed against the gates trying to get a glimpse of the pitch after being locked out in that period, come in there must be thousands of them, surely a few must post on here. I can't see a single shrewd of evidence that we can get crowds of 50k other than you saying you can't see why not.

 

A nonsense argument!

 

- Saints have never had a stadium with a capacity larger than 32k, so it isn't a fair comparison. Saints couldn't fit more than 32k in either the Dell or St Mary's. That doesn't mean they couldn't have if the stadiums were larger.

- That Sunderland record was 78 years ago so not relevant really for today. Crowds were simply much larger all over the country in the late 20's, 30's,, 40's and 50's and Saints were restricted by the size of the Dell.

 

Oldham Athletic for example have a record crowd of 47,671 at around the same time as the Sunderland one. Does that mean Oldham in 2011 have a much larger fanbase than Southampton?

Edited 4 October, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Sour Mash]

Why the f**k would we want an extra 20k of glory hunters next time we play Man Utd. Sounds s**t to me!

[Matthew Le God]

Why the f**k would we want an extra 20k of glory hunters next time we play Man Utd. Sounds s**t to me!

 

Most of them would be in the upper tier, so we can be segregated from them.

[Sour Mash]

Most of them would be in the upper tier, so we can be segregated from them.

And charge them the highest rip off prices, I might now be coming around to your way of thinking ha!

[Turkish]

A nonsense argument!

 

- Saints have never had a stadium with a capacity larger than 32k, so it isn't a fair comparison. Saints couldn't fit more than 32k in either the Dell or St Mary's. That doesn't mean they couldn't have if the stadiums were larger.

- That Sunderland record was 78 years ago so not relevant really for today.

Oldham Athletic for example have a record crowd of 47,671 at around the same time as the Sunderland one. Does that mean

Oldham in 2011 have a much larger fanbase than Southampton?

 

Is it ad compelling an argument as we can get 50k because I think we can,imagine it?

 

Maybe just maybe there a reason why saints have never had a stadium bigger than 32k?? Could it be that we've never needed one perhaps?

 

Didn't you famously once quote that Chelsea only used to get 13k years ago and look at them now to support your claims we could get 50k? It seems crowds from the past only apply when it suits you.

Edited 4 October, 2011 by Turkish

[The Kraken]

Well do you not agree it would be foolish to think Saints coming 20th in the Premier League and averaging 30, 610, that season would not attract significantly larger numbers if they were fighting it out towards the top of the league? The average whilst in a relegation campaign of over 30k is evidence in itself that at 32k the stadium is too small.

No, I would not argue that as there are no numbers to even begin suggesting that thousands of paying customers were locked out from a significant number of games. As I've said, we're riding high at the top of the league; comparisons with the last time we were in this league don't look good, depending which method of comparison you use it might be argued we're actually down on our last visits to the Championship. So, in that respect alone, league position might seem to have a negligible effect on crowd numbers.

 

How many fans were getting turned away when we were in the Premier League?

You are right I don't know, nor do you. But the club would know, so Cortese knows and he is the one that has decided a stadium of 44k - 50k is feasible. I doubt he takes such decisions lightly.

Has he said a 50K stadium is feasible? Has he really? I think you'll find he hasn't. What he has said is that a satdium expansion is a long, long way off and would have to be justified by actual evidence. so clearly he doesn't have that evidence already.

 

Also, many wouldn't have tried to buy tickets once the sold out banner went up. Plus a larger stadium allows for more flexible ticketing promotions, free tickets to schools, family deals etc etc all of which would boost the crowds.

Creating a new stadium only to fill it with free or vastly reduced tickets hardly seems like an exercise in good business sense to me. You build a new stadium to maximise profits, not as a ****-measuring competition and to massage a particular ego.

 

How many games were selling out "well in advance"? How long is "well in advance"?

 

As someone else mentioned, a game against Chelsea sold out in 6 hours. I remember games in the Premier League that sold out one or two weeks before the day of the game. Once that happens people stop trying to get tickets because they would know none are available.

And you see, there's what having no empirical evidence does for you; I can not remember very many of those games at all. When we've had these threads before it's been asked for people to post on here if they consistently missed out on tickets; hardly anyone spoke up to say they did.

 

Look, I think there's little doubt that we'd sell more than 32K tickets for some games in the Premier League. But if it would only be an extra 1,000 tickets, and only for the bigger game, is it a financial reality and worth the effort? Mr Cortese has consistently stated that there are no limits on an enhanced stadium, but it would all have to backed up by him seeing evidence. It's a shame that a minority of people seem to want to bypass all that.

Edited 4 October, 2011 by The Kraken

[djharvey]

I would agree 40k is realistic as an aim, but some are saying 50k regularly, which would make us the 4th best supported club in England. There is not a single piece of credible evidence to suggest this is possible.

 

So you actually think 40k is realistic then!

 

Ok, so how about answering some of your own doubts on this subject then. Where is the credible evidence to suggest this is possible?

[Matthew Le God]

Maybe just maybe there a reason why saints have never had a stadium bigger than 32k?? Could it be that we've never needed one perhaps?

 

So you think Oldham 49k, Bolton 69k, Burnley 54k, Port Vale 49k etc etc with their old records attendances all have larger fanbases than Southampton in 2011?

 

Consider that their stadiums were much larger than the Dell ever was and these records are mostly 50 - 80 years ago when there was little else in the way of entertainment. Saints were restricted at the Dell and football in England has moved on since those days.

 

Didn't you famously once quote that Chelsea only used to get 13k years ago and look at them now to support your claims we could get 50k? It seems crowds from the past only apply when it suits you.

 

There is a big difference between using Chelsea crowds in 1995 like I did (and you have taken out of context) and you using Sunderland crowds from 1933!

Edited 4 October, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Turkish]

So you actually think 40k is realistic then!

 

Ok, so how about answering some of your own doubts on this subject then. Where is the credible evidence to suggest this is possible?

 

Realistic as an aim dinlow. For the same reasons as the others lad whose name I can't remember now said.

[djharvey]

Realistic as an aim dinlow. For the same reasons as the others lad whose name I can't remember now said.

 

So there must have previously been a waiting list of 8k then? Or we must have been locking out 8k at previous games?

 

These are the same sort of points you have been using to knock a 50k ground.

[shurlock]

Reading John Crace's Vertigo about a year in the life of a Spurs fan during their Champions League season. A bit underwhelming, though it does point out that waiting lists for season tickets at White Hart Lane are only a recent phenomenon. Up until the 2000s they struggled to give them away - supposedly new applicants were even invited on stadium tours to handpick their seat.

 

Nothing's set in stone and history is a poor guide. Success, habit and herd effects go along way to predicting attendances -and all of which can be influenced to a large extent.

[The Kraken]

Reading John Crace's Vertigo about a year in the life of a Spurs fan during their Champions League season. A bit underwhelming, though it does point out that waiting lists for season tickets at White Hart Lane are only a recent phenomenon. Up until the 2000s they struggled to give them away - supposedly new applicants were even invited on stadium tours to handpick their seat.

 

Nothing's set in stone and history is a poor guide. Success, habit and herd effects go along way to predicting attendances -and all of which can be influenced to a large extent.

 

Yes, absolutely. Which is why I keep stressing that we won't see a new ground for a long time yet, as the owners will want to see an awful lot of relevant empirical evidence, which we clearly currently don't have. I don't quite understand the need by some to try and fast-track that by plucking out spurious comparisons.

 

I don't think anyone here would rule out the potential for getting better crowds in the future. How big, who knows? But answer this, if a new stadium had to be financed by supporters' donations, how many people here would be prepared to chip in from their own pocket based solely on the evidence we have to hand? That would be complete madness.

[Matthew Le God]

Yes, absolutely. Which is why I keep stressing that we won't see a new ground for a long time yet, as the owners will want to see an awful lot of relevant empirical evidence, which we clearly currently don't have. I don't quite understand the need by some to try and fast-track that by plucking out spurious comparisons.

 

I don't think anyone here would rule out the potential for getting better crowds in the future. How big, who knows? But answer this, if a new stadium had to be financed by supporters' donations, how many people here would be prepared to chip in from their own pocket based solely on the evidence we have to hand? That would be complete madness.

 

What evidence do you think they need? Given the last time Saints were in the Premier League they can be pretty certain of a return to 30k+ averages in a 32k seater stadium. Plus this time it seems there will be more investment to make the club more competitive at a higher level than under Rupert Lowe between 2001 and 2005.

 

Then it becomes something of a catch 22 situation about season ticket holder numbers. Last time in the Premier League I believe STH numbers were around the 22k mark, however a larger stadium allows for more flexible pricing strategies and offers, until you have the larger stadium you can't implement these.

[Turkish]

So you think Oldham 49k, Bolton 69k, Burnley 54k, Port Vale 49k etc etc with their old records attendances all have larger fanbases than Southampton in 2011?

Consider that their stadiums were much larger than the Dell ever was and these records are mostly 50 - 80 years ago when there was little else in the way of entertainment. Saints were restricted at the Dell and football in England has moved on since those days

There is a big difference between using Chelsea crowds in 1995 like I did (and you have taken out of context) and you using Sunderland crowds from 1933!

 

Oh it's 1995 now is it, not 1982?

 

Do you not think that sunderland and Saints put a little bit of effort into what size of a stadium they will need before building it? Looking ar potential fan base, historical evidence etc. Or did Sunderland build one and spend all those extra millions just hoping they'd get somewhere near to filling it, using the logic that Chelsea got 12k back in the 80's and they can get 45k now, why can't we?

 

Do you not think Saints might have just done the same? bTW I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions regarding the size of our season ticket waiting list and regular fans lock outs between 2002-05. Seeing as how you demanded a response to your question earlier.

[Turkish]

So there must have previously been a waiting list of 8k then? Or we must have been locking out 8k at previous games?

 

These are the same sort of points you have been using to knock a 50k ground.

 

What part of 40k as an aim are you having difficult understanding?

[Matthew Le God]

Do you not think that sunderland and Saints put a little bit of effort into what size of a stadium they will need before building it? Looking ar potential fan base, historical evidence etc. Or did Sunderland build one and spend all those extra millions just hoping they'd get somewhere near to filling it, using the logic that Chelsea got 12k back in the 80's and they can get 45k now, why can't we?

 

Do you not think Saints might have just done the same?

 

The proposed Stoneham project in the late 1990's was going to be for a 25k seater stadium. Do you not agree they got the demand wrong for that given the averages average attendance of 30k+ at St Mary's?

 

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions regarding the size of our season ticket waiting list and regular fans lock outs between 2002-05. Seeing as how you demanded a response to your question earlier.

 

I already have answered that in post #51

Edited 4 October, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Rebel]

Soton 234k + Eastleigh Borough 120k + Test Valley 115k + Winchester District 112k+ New Forest 175k = circa 750k

 

Puts Saints in the Leeds scale. Which is why a 50k+ stadium could be viable.

 

Add in the fact that the average gdp in the whole area is greater than Leeds etc! Portsmuffs gdp is a lot lower due to the caravans and prefabs.

 

You need to add in 50% of Basingstoke and the IOW to that, as well as 40% or more of Bournemouth and Salisbury - and possibly 20% of places like Weymouth and Dorchester.

 

Leeds is a weird one as the surrounding towns like Bradford, York, Halifax and Huddersfield all have their own clubs with fairly loyal support - and a fairly strong anti-Leeds sentiment. But then the smaller towns like Dewsbury, Mirfield and Wakefield are all hotbeds of Leeds support.

 

My distant family based in and around Wakefield are all die-hard Leeds United fans - but when it comes to rugby league they all support Wakefield Trinity and loathe Leeds!

 

My mates at Uni in Hudderfield who were from Mirfield and Dewsbury we Leeds fans, but in Hudderfield itself you were more likely to see a Man Utd shirt than a Leeds or Hudds Town shirt!

[Matthew Le God]

You need to add in 50% of Basingstoke and the IOW to that, as well as 40% or more of Bournemouth and Salisbury - and possibly 20% of places like Weymouth and Dorchester.

 

You could even go into Devon and Cornwall, if anyone from there wanted to watch some Premier League football even if just a couple of games a year, St Mary's (if Saints were promoted) would be their best option.

[Thedelldays]

You could even go into Devon and Cornwall, if anyone from there wanted to watch some Premier League football even if just a couple of games a year, St Mary's (if Saints were promoted) would be their best option.

or they may just support their local teams....like most do away from the big 5/8

[Rebel]

maybe we should look to the German model where clubs are getting crowds of 50-60K on a regular basis - and there not even clubs we would think of as being big - and they are from cities the same size as Southampton. Werder Bremen, Borussia Dortmund etc.

 

but its based on larger capacity stadiums with standing areas/terraces and ticket prices in the £15 bracket

 

if we had the stadium capacity, were playing in the premier league and had lower tickets prices I think we could get much larger crowds - but I don't think thats a model English clubs are bothered about - its all about the SKY money!

[The Cat]

Maybe, until now, Saints have never had enough money to build a +40k stadium. To be fair I have no idea how much more it would have cost us to knock up an extra tier at St Mary's so my point could be completely invalid. But it sounds plausible so I'll run with it.

[Turkish]

The Stoneham Stadium in the late 1990's was going to be for a 25k seater stadium. Do you not agree they got the demand wrong for that given the averages attendance of 30k at St Mary's?

 

I already have answered that in post #51

 

I actually do know the answer. How? Because my wife was working at the ticket office at the time, pretty first hand evidence i'd say. Our waiting list for season tickets during 2001-05 was the grand total of Zero, none, nil. Despite Rupert suggesting a cap of around 25k IIRC, we never reach that figure. For the big games, Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal etc the numbers turned away, enquiring for tickets after sell outs were also very, very low, "rarely more than a couple of hundred".

 

So this suggest that a stadium of about 32k, where demand was rarely much higher, no waiting list for season tickets, is about right for us at the time.

 

So now you say we expand St Marys up to 50k and the millions upon millions that would cost to then give way tickets for free to schools, reduce the price in deals to fill the spaces that you say the mass demand by the paying public requires. Can you see how foolish that sounds? Until we have a waiting list of season ticket holders around 8-10k that will PAY FULL PRICE to ensure that the millions and millions of pounds required to expand St Marys is going to see an ROI then it is an utterly pointless exercise.

Edited 4 October, 2011 by Turkish

[Turkish]

You could even go into Devon and Cornwall, if anyone from there wanted to watch some Premier League football even if just a couple of games a year, St Mary's (if Saints were promoted) would be their best option.

 

You could get to Birmingham almost as quickly from Devon and Cornwall as you can Southampton and there are 3 clubs in that area, so clearly not.

[The Kraken]

Maybe, until now, Saints have never had enough money to build a +40k stadium. To be fair I have no idea how much more it would have cost us to knock up an extra tier at St Mary's so my point could be completely invalid. But it sounds plausible so I'll run with it.

 

Back when the stadium was built it was quoted as £1,000 per seat in the original design (so 32K seats was £32m) but that an additional tier of seats would cost £3,000 per seat. I would imagine the price to have significantly increased since then to around £4,000 or even £5,000 per seat.

 

The current stadium allows for every stand except the Itchen to be increased; Northam and Chapel by 4,000 seats each, Kingsland by 8,000.

 

So you're looking at arguable £16M to put in 4,000 extra seats. Or the cost of another St. Mary's to give us a 40K seater stadium.

[shurlock]

Yes, absolutely. Which is why I keep stressing that we won't see a new ground for a long time yet, as the owners will want to see an awful lot of relevant empirical evidence, which we clearly currently don't have. I don't quite understand the need by some to try and fast-track that by plucking out spurious comparisons.

 

I don't think anyone here would rule out the potential for getting better crowds in the future. How big, who knows? But answer this, if a new stadium had to be financed by supporters' donations, how many people here would be prepared to chip in from their own pocket based solely on the evidence we have to hand? That would be complete madness.

 

Spot on -nobody knows and there is no benefit or rush to do things now. If crowds go up -and who says they wont, they will be initially led by success on the pitch. But that's a massive if requiring greater investment in the team and the playing side than a stadium and until that day, attempts to justify and predict a number -whether on the high side or low side- are each ludicrous in their own way.

Edited 4 October, 2011 by shurlock

[Matthew Le God]

or they may just support their local teams....like most do away from the big 5/8

 

From personal experience, a lot of those in the West Country don't support their three local clubs, in any case even Plymouth, Exeter and Torquay fans might fancy watching the odd live Premier League game. St Mary's would be there best option even if they only have a passing interest in Saints, they may want to see Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal etc and can;t do that at Home Park, St James Park or Plainmoor.

[Thedelldays]

From personal experience, a lot of those in the West Country don't support their three local clubs, in any case even Plymouth, Exeter and Torquay fans might fancy watching the odd live Premier League game. St Mary's would be there best option even if they only have a passing interest in Saints, they may want to see Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal etc and can;t do that at Home Park, St James Park or Plainmoor.

they support either liverpool and man u..

 

not saints

[um pahars]

You could even go into Devon and Cornwall, if anyone from there wanted to watch some Premier League football even if just a couple of games a year, St Mary's (if Saints were promoted) would be their best option.

 

If anyone wants a reason to skip this thread, then this has done it for me LMFAO.

[Thedelldays]

MLG will defend his position till he cant breath but he is talking absolute bollix..and that is from someone who has lived in the west country for the last 11 years

[Matthew Le God]

they support either liverpool and man u..

 

not saints

 

And how often are Liverpool or Man Utd etc etc likely to play Plymouth, Exeter or Torquay in the foreseeable future? Sitting in the home end at St Mary's is their next best option. Plus Devon/Cornwall Schools and local youth teams can have trips to the local big league team as treats, especially if St Mary's is made bigger and allows more flexibility for group deals.

[The Kraken]

If anyone wants a reason to skip this thread, then this has done it for me LMFAO.

 

I'm still laughing at the thought of MLG justifying it to himself; incredible stuff! And then choosing to make it public!

 

:lol:

[Turkish]

And how often are Liverpool or Man Utd etc etc likely to play Plymouth, Exeter or Torquay? Sitting in the home end at St Mary's is their next best option. Plus Devon/Cornwall Schools and local youth teams can have trips to the local big league team as treats, especially if St Mary's is made bigger and allows more flexibility for group deals.

 

So you are telling us that if we cant give away enough freebies to schools and families we still need a 50k stadium due to the legions of west country folk driving the 3.5-4hrs to St Marys to watch Man United?? You need to stick to championship manager son.

[View From The Top]

Janners travelling to Soton for an EPL game?

 

What a 'tard.

[Thedelldays]

And how often are Liverpool or Man Utd etc etc likely to play Plymouth, Exeter or Torquay in the foreseeable future? Sitting in the home end at St Mary's is their next best option. Plus Devon/Cornwall Schools and local youth teams can have trips to the local big league team as treats, especially if St Mary's is made bigger and allows more flexibility for group deals.

what the hell are you on about...so a handfull...A HANDFULL may..MAY have made the trip from the west country to watch saints play liverpool

 

where they would have sat I have no idea as it would have been a sell out anyway....it takes 3 hours to get to southampton from plymouth....you can hit birmingham in a similar time scale....

[Matthew Le God]

At no point have I put a figure on it in terms of numbers, of course it wouldn't be huge. As I child I went with my Plymouth based youth team to a number of Premier League games at the Dell over the years. I doubt they would have bothered with Siants whilst the club was in the 2nd and 3rd tiers in recent years given Argyle were playing similar teams. I know a few clubs and schools that did similar, this type of thing would return once Saints are in the top flight.

[Thedelldays]

At no point have I put a figure on it in terms of numbers, of course it wouldn't be huge. As I child I went with my Plymouth youth team to a number of Premier League games at the Dell over the years. I doubt they would have bothered whilst the club was in the 2nd and 3rd tiers given Argyle were playing similar teams. I know a few clubs and schools that did similar, this type of thing would return once Saints are in the top flight.

numbers..?

of course as the numbers would be in the tens.....that is it MAX

[egg]

Just looked at this thread. Funniest thing I have read in ages.

 

MLG are you really saying we need and can fill a bigger stadium, or are you in some kind if wind up?

 

If it is the former you need help mate.

[djharvey]

What part of 40k as an aim are you having difficult understanding?

 

The part where you are unable to explain why 40k!

[Matthew Le God]

Just looked at this thread. Funniest thing I have read in ages.

 

MLG are you really saying we need and can fill a bigger stadium, or are you in some kind if wind up?

 

If it is the former you need help mate.

 

So you think there was the same level of demand for a game against Charlton in the Premier League as was against Man Utd in the Premier League? Both games sold out in the past. You are suggesting that Saints level of support maxes out dead on 32k and a fixture against Man Utd wouldn't attract more fans than one against a smaller team like Charlton.

[Turkish]

The part where you are unable to explain why 40k!

 

It's an aim. A goal, A target, something to try to achieve and aspire to. We have proven we can get 32k regularly. If a lot of things go right, we get the right level of investment, we regularly finish in the top 6, we play attractive football, we are actually relavtively bloody successful, we could, maybe, possibly, fill a 40k stadium and there could, maybe, possibly be a case that it would be worthwhile to expand to that. But only if we can prove there will be an ROI and over a period of time that we can sustain crowds of 40k regularly and not by giving them away as freebies to schools and families and not by having 10,000 fans travelling from Cornwall once a season to watch Man United.

 

It really isnt that difficult to understand is it sweetheart.

[Turkish]

So you think there was the same level of demand for a game against Charlton in the Premier League as was against Man Utd in the Premier League? Both games sold out in the past. You are suggesting that Saints level of support maxes out dead on 32k and a fixture against Man Utd wouldn't attract more fans than one against a smaller team like Charlton.

 

You've already done this one. Give it up, you're making yourself look like a clown.

[Matthew Le God]

It's an aim. A goal, A target, something to try to achieve and aspire. We have proven we can get 32k regularly. If a lot of things go right, we get the right level of investment, we regularly finish in the top 6, we play attractive football, we are actually relavtively bloody successful, we could, maybe, possibly, fill a 40k stadium and there could, maybe, possibly be a case that it would be worthwhile to expand to that. But only if we can prove there will be an ROI and over a period of time that we can sustain crowds of 40k regularly and not by giving them away as freebies to schools and families and not by having 10,000 fans travelling from Cornwall once a season to watch Man United.

 

It really isnt that difficult to understand is it sweetheart.

 

Games were selling out in the year Saints finished 20th in the Premier League. If Saints were to get to 6th regularly as you say, the demand would much higher than 32k. I don't see why you think this is such a strange conclusion to make.

[colehillsaint]

I think there is no argument for a bigger ground in the current climate. In 2003/04 there was a whole lot of informal corparate seats in the ground, and I think most business people have cut that sort of thing back big time. We are a few interest rate rises and banking hiccups away from serious business and personal distress all round.

 

If we get back to the EPL and continue to serve up the kind of football we are getting used to we may fill SMS again and that will look really good compared to other clubs.

[Matthew Le God]

You've already done this one. Give it up, you're making yourself look like a clown.

 

And you failed to give an answer.

[Turkish]

And you failed to give an answer.

 

see post 73.

[Turkish]

Games were selling out in the year Saints finished 20th in the Premier League. If Saints were to get to 6th regularly as you say, the demand would much higher than 32k. I don't see why you think this is such a strange conclusion to make.

 

Games were selling out when we finsihed 8th, but only just. this is a fact. What difference would 2 places make?

[egg]

I'm saying that I have seen no evidence that there was consistent demand, thus I have seen no evidence to justify the cost if expansion or relocation.

 

Our club is now run by a businessman, not an idealist. No prudent businessman would spend money adding a few seats to st marys without us being established in the top flight with consistent demand for tickets. Even then it would only stack up if the cost led to a return over a relatively short period.

[Matthew Le God]

see post 73.

 

That doesn't answer it at all. Once a game has sold out why would you try and buy tickets? Yes, some may not be aware it has sold out, but the majority will especially once they get used to sell outs on a regular basis. Hence why we had games sell out in a matter of hours/days after going on sale.

[Matthew Le God]

Games were selling out when we finsihed 8th, but only just. this is a fact. What difference would 2 places make?

 

Games were selling out (and getting close to sell outs) when Saints were in the relegation zone. A team with investment competing towards the top of the league will see interest increase significantly.

[Thedelldays]

lets just agree that is is daft to talk seriously about expanding SMS right now