Albert Einstein is spinning in his grave...

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

(with apologies to Saint in Paradise)

 

It seems that some neutrinos generated at CERN haven't listened to Einstein and have had the audacity to travel faster than light. Nothing too amazing there, except that the last hundred or so years of physics has been totally blown out of the water.

 

Over to you Professor Hawking. Let's see you explain this one.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

[dubai_phil]

There was an article in the DT which explained - well absolutely nothing

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8783217/Speed-of-light-may-have-been-broken-QandA.html

 

there was then another article which explained it even less, but it had about 100 + comments which explained everything. It's all to do with the mass.

 

feck knows why you have to be a Catholic to understand.

[Window Cleaner]

(with apologies to Saint in Paradise)

 

It seems that some neutrinos generated at CERN haven't listened to Einstein and have had the audacity to travel faster than light. Nothing too amazing there, except that the last hundred or so years of physics has been totally blown out of the water.

 

Over to you Professor Hawking. Let's see you explain this one.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484

 

They're falling over themselves down there trying to prove that they've f*cked up,cos if faster than light speeds are achievable then many impossibles become well...possible. Mind you there are a couple of "I told you so's" and "knew it all alongs".

[Smirking_Saint]

Post this on the 'it could never ever happen' Dogs Ghost thread

[iansums]

How will this affect my pension?

[Saintandy666]

This literally blew my mind. e=mc^2 does work for a lot of stuff though! But wow... now what?

[Dark Munster]

How will this affect my pension?

 

Well maybe it'll mean you could send a neutrino signal back in time. You could send a message to your younger self 20 or so years ago to invest in Microsoft and Google. That should nicely pad your pension.

 

Once you're done don't forget to send me a few million as a token of your appreciation.

[badgerx16]

1 ) As time is relative to the observer, and the effective rotational speed experienced at any point on the Earth's surface increases as you get nearer to the equator, then assuming the route traveled by the neutrinos runs on a north-south axis, ( CERN to Italy ), the neutrinos will be seen traveling apparently at different speeds at either end of the track.

 

2) They've made a mistake

 

3) It's God playing tricks

 

Take your pick.

[Dark Munster]

This literally blew my mind. e=mc^2 does work for a lot of stuff though! But wow... now what?

 

e = mc² + something really, really tiny (k/c¹⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰) ?

[pap]

Does this mean we can get warp drive now?

[Window Cleaner]

Does this mean we can get warp drive now?

 

only if you've got a matter/anti-matter engine handy.

[landford.saint]

They also announced this week that despite looking for years no-one has found any 'dark matter' and that IT probably doesn't exist either. Which apparently throws another major theory out the window. I personally have no idea what dark matter is, but to the 'egg head' on the radio it was something absolutely devastating to a vital thereom of the universes workings.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

They also announced this week that despite looking for years no-one has found any 'dark matter' and that IT probably doesn't exist either. Which apparently throws another major theory out the window. I personally have no idea what dark matter is, but to the 'egg head' on the radio it was something absolutely devastating to a vital theorem of the universes workings.

 

The trouble with finding Dark Matter is that it is dark. Like looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at night. And the cat is in a black sack. And the black sack is hidden.

[Window Cleaner]

They also announced this week that despite looking for years no-one has found any 'dark matter' and that IT probably doesn't exist either. Which apparently throws another major theory out the window. I personally have no idea what dark matter is, but to the 'egg head' on the radio it was something absolutely devastating to a vital thereom of the universes workings.

 

There are some alternative theories about if dark matter doesn't exist and thus cannot explain some astronomical phenomena.

This would mean modified gravity theories are probably most likely but that would mean that Newtonian and Einsteinian physics isn't really sufficient.Not much sign of the old Higg's Boson as yet either.

Edited 23 September, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

There are some alternative theories about if dark matter doesn't exist and thus cannot explain some astronomical phenomenon.

This would mean modified gravity theories are probably most likely but that would mean that Newtonian and Einsteinian physics isn't really sufficient.Not much sign of the old Higg's Boson as yet either.

 

Don't forget the theory that most of gravity doesn't exist in our four dimensions either. Hence the fact that it is an unexpectedly weak force.

[landford.saint]

There are some alternative theories about if dark matter doesn't exist and thus cannot explain some astronomical phenomena.

This would mean modified gravity theories are probably most likely but that would mean that Newtonian and Einsteinian physics isn't really sufficient.Not much sign of the old Higg's Boson as yet either.

 

Did you just give me a) an intelligent answer B) Bullsh!t C) a mixture of both. And who is Higg's Boson. Who does he play for and in what position? Your last reply went so far over my head it was like Halleys Comet.

[badgerx16]

A 'law' in physics is simply a theory that has yet to be proved incorrect.

[hamster]

I won't cancel the ML just yet, might not pay the bill either...just in case.

[Saint in Paradise]

Some people think that the universe is full of electricity as well.

 

http://www.plasmacosmology.net/electric.html

 

 

.

[svetigpung]

The trouble with finding Dark Matter is that it is dark. Like looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at night. And the cat is in a black sack. And the black sack is hidden.

 

Try turning the light on , Doh.

[Baj]

1 ) As time is relative to the observer, and the effective rotational speed experienced at any point on the Earth's surface increases as you get nearer to the equator, then assuming the route traveled by the neutrinos runs on a north-south axis, ( CERN to Italy ), the neutrinos will be seen traveling apparently at different speeds at either end of the track.

Except the neutrinos are a) fired in a straight line through the earth and b) the measurement is the time it takes to travel there, the speed of light is a constant that does not change based on the observer. The timing is from point a to point b, not "how fast it appears to be going when it travels past me".

[pap]

While I cannot claim to have an in-depth knowledge of Einstein's work, the cool thing about this discovery is that the limitation his theories placed on us is suddenly gone.

 

We probably won't see it, but humanity will need to leave the Earth at some point. If we had been limited to the speed of light, even a trip to our closest neighboring star system would have been an 8 year round trip.

 

From my limited scientific knowledge, I understand that Einstein's reason for suggesting that nothing can go past the speed of light is that because photons have no mass. A neutrino doesn't weigh very much, but has mass, and scientists reckon they've seen neutrinos move faster than photons. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Last time I did any physics was in 1991

 

As to Einstein spinning in his grave? Possibly. But given that science is evidence-based, I'm sure he'd have a couple of alternate theories if he had seen the stuff going on at CERN.

[Weston Super Saint]

Maybe, just maybe, this will explain where all the missing socks have gone!

[Window Cleaner]

Did you just give me a) an intelligent answer B) Bullsh!t C) a mixture of both. And who is Higg's Boson. Who does he play for and in what position? Your last reply went so far over my head it was like Halleys Comet.

 

70% a,30% c, I heard Dario Autierio talking about all this stuff a while back at the IPN in Lyon but as I was there to talk about something else I didn't follow it at 100%. Anyway there was a big reunion in the Grand Amphi at CERN yesterday (or the day before).

Loads of kids with smartphones were videoing it, I'm sure you'll find it on YouTube somewhere.

[scotty]

They're falling over themselves down there trying to prove that they've f*cked up,cos if faster than light speeds are achievable then many impossibles become well...possible. Mind you there are a couple of "I told you so's" and "knew it all alongs".

 

A customer of mine was a quantum theorist, I saw him maybe twice a year but we became very friendly, in fact I have a couple of copies of his books on the subject given to me by his widow after he died. I asked him once about how his work squared with religion and the paranormal, he said "its conceivable. And if its conceivable, it has happened or is happening." I got a bit lost when he explained this idea, but he reckoned that absolutely anything that had the remotest chance of existing does exist, and that included all forms of mysticism and the paranormal. So I suppose that if its possible for anything to exceed the speed of light there must be things doing just that. Above my head, I'm afraid.

[buctootim]

The trouble with finding Dark Matter is that it is dark. Like looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at night. And the cat is in a black sack. And the black sack is hidden.

 

I always imagined it was bigger than that...

[Window Cleaner]

I always imagined it was bigger than that...

 

Same principal in finding it though, if you bang about about you'll eventually hit the sack with the cat in it and it will make a noise,trouble is as dark matter in theory emits no electromagnetic radiation or any light you have to find the right stick to hit it with.

[badgerx16]

Except the neutrinos are a) fired in a straight line through the earth and b) the measurement is the time it takes to travel there, the speed of light is a constant that does not change based on the observer. The timing is from point a to point b, not "how fast it appears to be going when it travels past me".

But surely the way the timing is done is that the two ends of the route are using a common reference time source and the elapsed flight time is taken from the observed departure time at one end and the observed arrival time at the other. Therefore, as time is relatively slower at the Italian end, ( as it is travelling faster with the rotation of the Earth ) the recorded time taken with reference to the common time source will be earlier than expected, hence the travel time is recorded as less than it should be, and the neutrinos appear to be going faster.

 

Personally I reckon it's option (3) from my list anyway.

[Doctoroncall]

But surely the way the timing is done is that the two ends of the route are using a common reference time source and the elapsed flight time is taken from the observed departure time at one end and the observed arrival time at the other. Therefore, as time is relatively slower at the Italian end, ( as it is travelling faster with the rotation of the Earth ) the recorded time taken with reference to the common time source will be earlier than expected, hence the travel time is recorded as less than it should be, and the neutrinos appear to be going faster.

 

Personally I reckon it's option (3) from my list anyway.

 

GPS satellites locate you precisely, but have to include Einstein's arithmetic in the calculations. Some experiments at Cern agree with the predictions of relativity to better than one part in a trillion – that is like measuring the distance across the Atlantic Ocean to better than the width of a human hair – but only when relativity is taken into account.

[tpbury]

Well, is it our luck to exist in the only parallel universe where people haven't bothered travelling back in time in order to end poverty, spread peace and happiness and make Saints top of the league? Hey, wait a minute...

[dubai_phil]

OK so I'm starting to get it now.

 

Billions spent to run an experiment for an imaginary particle. Higgs-Bosun. If they don't find it then that's good news as it will mean they have to spend more billions and secure their jobs for another 10 years while they dream up an experiment to discover what isn't a Higgs-Bosun. If they do find it that will be good news ans they invent more billions of experiments to test the other theories that are linked to it. Perfect. jobs for life

 

Wish I'd discovered a career like that. It's logic is almost as flawless as the old poopey financial strategies.

[Chez]

saw a silver DeLorean the other day. Just saying, like.

[Window Cleaner]

saw a silver DeLorean the other day. Just saying, like.

 

 

still, nowadays if you ran it up to 88mph in a small town high street you'd get a camera generated speeding ticket and they'd still

be trying to make you pay it when you get to some future era.

I was on the M25 and the M1 on Wednesday,all those "average speed cameras" must be a real waste of money 'cos nobody seemed to take any notice of the 50 mph limits.Jeez those motorways are rough, just a moving wall of lorries.

Edited 30 September, 2011 by Window Cleaner

[notnowcato]

The trouble with finding Dark Matter is that it is dark. Like looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at night. And the cat is in a black sack. And the black sack is hidden.

 

thermal camera? open a tin of tuna??

 

I'll deal with dark matter after I've had a s**t.

[hypochondriac]

OK so I'm starting to get it now.

 

Billions spent to run an experiment for an imaginary particle. Higgs-Bosun. If they don't find it then that's good news as it will mean they have to spend more billions and secure their jobs for another 10 years while they dream up an experiment to discover what isn't a Higgs-Bosun. If they do find it that will be good news ans they invent more billions of experiments to test the other theories that are linked to it. Perfect. jobs for life

 

Wish I'd discovered a career like that. It's logic is almost as flawless as the old poopey financial strategies.

 

What's the point of human existence if not to further the understanding of ourselves and the world around us and why we are here/ how we got here.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

thermal camera? open a tin of tuna??

 

I'll deal with dark matter after I've had a s**t.

 

Oh and the cat is probably dead.

[notnowcato]

Oh and the cat is probably dead.

 

Break it to me gently why don't you.

 

I'll return to this conversation when you are prepared to take this seriously.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Break it to me gently why don't you.

 

I'll return to this conversation when you are prepared to take this seriously.

 

You're right, I'm sorry. It was callous and unthinking of me. I should have put something like "The cat has had a very long and happy life and is slipping gently away into the hereafter with a dream of mice and birds and unlimited bowls of food and curtains to climb on and an acre of potted plants to shred"

 

Dead cats are no joke. Especially when you find one in your transmission.

[badgerx16]

Oh and the cat is probably dead.

Or, at the same time, it probably isn't. It's not until you actually go in and find it that you cause and fix the cat's true state. Until then, all possible outcomes exist.

[badgerx16]

Watched a program on BBC2 last night about this experiment and how the observed results might be explained, inclduing the great amount of effort put into eliminating variable factors and areas of potential error - including the impact of tectonic movements on the distance between the emitter and receiver. Towards the end they went all 'theoretical maths' to show how that field 'allows' things to travel faster than light, and some talking head reckoned that under String Theory it is possible that the neutrinos transiently switched into being tachyons, which by definition MUST travel faster than light, and then reverted before being detected.

[Window Cleaner]

Watched a program on BBC2 last night about this experiment and how the observed results might be explained, inclduing the great amount of effort put into eliminating variable factors and areas of potential error - including the impact of tectonic movements on the distance between the emitter and receiver. Towards the end they went all 'theoretical maths' to show how that field 'allows' things to travel faster than light, and some talking head reckoned that under String Theory it is possible that the neutrinos transiently switched into being tachyons, which by definition MUST travel faster than light, and then reverted before being detected.

 

Is not a tachyon a hypothetical particle which by definition must travel faster than light,some thing that must exist( in theory )if you are to concile relativity and quantum field theories? I'm a bit out of date on all that stuff but I'd not heard that the actual existence of tachyons is proven,unless this experiment proves it of course.

[Jimmy_D]

Is not a tachyon a hypothetical particle which by definition must travel faster than light,some thing that must exist( in theory )if you are to concile relativity and quantum field theories? I'm a bit out of date on all that stuff but I'd not heard that the actual existence of tachyons is proven,unless this experiment proves it of course.

 

One theory is that tachyons appear to travel faster than light because they're actually travelling backwards in time...

 

If that's what's happened here, with neutrinos changing to tachyons and then back again, it'd still be huge in a physics sense, as it'd be the first time we'd observed something changing the direction it travels through time. That also opens up a huge can of worms on how it interacts with entropy, cause and effect, paradox....

[badgerx16]

Is not a tachyon a hypothetical particle which by definition must travel faster than light,some thing that must exist( in theory )if you are to concile relativity and quantum field theories? I'm a bit out of date on all that stuff but I'd not heard that the actual existence of tachyons is proven,unless this experiment proves it of course.

Correct, the point was being made that theoretical mathematics has on several occasions suggested the existence of particles, including neutrinos and quarks, that have subsequently been discovered, at that possibly this result is the first step on the path to proving String Theory. I suspect, however, that they are desperately searching for a theory that fits the perceived observation, and that it will all eventually be shown to be a mistake in a formula.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Correct, the point was being made that theoretical mathematics has on several occasions suggested the existence of particles, including neutrinos and quarks, that have subsequently been discovered, at that possibly this result is the first step on the path to proving String Theory. I suspect, however, that they are desperately searching for a theory that fits the perceived observation, and that it will all eventually be shown to be a mistake in a formula.

 

Hasn't the String Theory been superseded by Membrane or 'M' Theory?

[badgerx16]

Hasn't the String Theory been superseded by Membrane or 'M' Theory?

 

My very limited understanding is that the 'strings' vibrate on the 'branes', and that the harmonic of the vibration determines the nature of the particle observed.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

My very limited understanding is that the 'strings' vibrate on the 'branes', and that the harmonic of the vibration determines the nature of the particle observed.

 

It's when you try to understand the concept of ten dimensions or more that I feel decidedly seasick.

[Gemmel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236

 

Improved tests - Same result

[alpine_saint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15791236

 

Improved tests - Same result

 

Great, when do we start building warp cores, T-14 hyperdrive generators, Constitution-class starships and J-type 327 Nubians ??

[badgerx16]

Great, when do we start building warp cores, T-14 hyperdrive generators, Constitution-class starships and J-type 327 Nubians ??

 

Zefram Cochrane is scheduled to take off on April 5th 2063.

[shurlock]

Media reporting of science truly is awful. I know they need stories, but it doesn't help general understanding. It's still hugely likely it's a testing error. Initial retests getting the same results doesn't mean much, there'll be hundreds of retests and checks before truly believing they've travelled faster than light. I'd be stunned if it turns out to be true. Still countless technical errors it could be, given what tiny margins of time we're talking about.

 

At least it gets science in the news though, and highlights the right way to do things, i.e. exploratory experiment which no agenda in what you 'want' to find, just trying to further knowledge, then when results come in, they're thoroughly tested repeatedly until clear information is apparent. In many ways this strikes me as better than 'ancient book is right, stopping listening now'.

 

Sounds like this forum - all bast*rds of the enlightenment

Edited 18 November, 2011 by shurlock