Firemen to strike?

[Johnny Bognor]

Could you please find a non- Daily Mail source to back up this assertion.

 

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2011/02/17/116300/local-authority-social-workers-hit-by-pay-freeze.htm

"Local authority social workers and other care professionals will not receive a pay rise in 2011-12, Local Government Employers has announced."

 

http://www.emergencyshorts.co.uk/story/4990/fire/Fire_Brigades_Union/Fire_Brigades_Union_takes_first_step_to_industrial_action_ballot/

"We’re already facing a pay freeze at a time of raging inflation and major frontline cuts"

 

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice/clinical-specialisms/management/pay-freeze-confirmed-for-those-earning-over-21000/5027466.article

"Pay freeze confirmed for those earning over £21,000"

 

www.teachers.org.uk/files/school-teachers-pay-2011-document.doc

"The Government has confirmed its intention to impose a pay freeze for qualified teachers in 2011 and 2012. With RPI at its highest for twenty years and expected to stay above 4 per cent throughout 2011 and planned increases in pension contributions in April 2012, teachers face a significant real terms pay cut of more than 10 per cent over the next two years."

 

No pay rises, pay freezes blah blah blah.

 

Unemployment is 1 million higher than it was three years ago. How many of these came from the public sector?

Answer = not many

 

Hundreds of thousands of private sector workers would gladly take a pay freeze over no job at all. Oh, and they didn't cause the crisis either.

 

That is the problem with the modern day socialist. They only care about public sector jobs when it is the low paid private sector workers that are being really screwed

Edited 17 September, 2011 by Johnny Bognor

[solentstars]

Unlike you, they pay into their pension scheme so you are getting for free what they are fighting to protect and I would suggest the mortality rate for fire-fighters is higher than that for submariners.

i agree and i am shocked that some people have forgotten about those two brave firemen who died at shirley towers and using the usual bile about public service v private sector.i have great respect for our army,police,doctors and nurses,teachers,binmen in the public services but have zero respect for the army of penpushers and mangers in the public sector or bankers and overpaid bosses and tax avoiders in the private sector.

[badgerx16]

No pay rises, pay freezes blah blah blah.

 

Unemployment is 1 million higher than it was three years ago. How many of these came from the public sector?

Answer = not many

 

Hundreds of thousands of private sector workers would gladly take a pay freeze over no job at all. Oh, and they didn't cause the crisis either.

 

That is the problem with the modern day socialist. They only care about public sector jobs when it is the low paid private sector workers that are being really screwed

 

That's the problem with casino captalists, 'I'm all right, sod the rest of you'. Get your head out of your arse and recognise that we're ALL being screwed, ( especially those poor unfortunates that have to suffer the 50p tax band ). The post above was merely pointing out that the assertion that public sector workers are getting inflation linked pay rises is incorrect. In fact most are getting their pay cut in real terms, not just in relation to inflation, which the Government is fudging by switching the index used to measure it.

 

As for public sector job loses : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8764101/Public-sector-job-cuts-put-110000-out-of-work.html

"More than 110,000 public sector workers have lost their jobs in the second quarter, with job cuts in the sector already five times greater than expected for the year."

[rocknrollman no2]

So much for the Condems stating that most of the public sector jobs that have been lost,will be picked up by the private sector.According to the BBC news on Friday,just a very small fraction of people made redundant from public sector jobs have found new employment.

Yet another reason to prove that the policies of this shambolic government are totally failing!

[Johnny Bognor]

i agree and i am shocked that some people have forgotten about those two brave firemen who died at shirley towers and using the usual bile about public service v private sector.i have great respect for our army,police,doctors and nurses,teachers,binmen in the public services but have zero respect for the army of penpushers and mangers in the public sector or bankers and overpaid bosses and tax avoiders in the private sector.

 

I have respect for our army, police, doctors and nurses etc (especially those that go beyond the call of duty), however my sympathy goes to those lower paid private sector workers who are more likely to lose their jobs, have no voice, are more likely to be exploited and are the ones who are being ****ed over the most.

 

That's the problem with casino captalists, 'I'm all right, sod the rest of you'. Get your head out of your arse and recognise that we're ALL being screwed, ( especially those poor unfortunates that have to suffer the 50p tax band ). The post above was merely pointing out that the assertion that public sector workers are getting inflation linked pay rises is incorrect. In fact most are getting their pay cut in real terms, not just in relation to inflation, which the Government is fudging by switching the index used to measure it.

 

As for public sector job loses : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/8764101/Public-sector-job-cuts-put-110000-out-of-work.html

"More than 110,000 public sector workers have lost their jobs in the second quarter, with job cuts in the sector already five times greater than expected for the year."

 

Still small when compared to those that have lost their jobs in the private sector over the last 3 years, many of whom didn't get generous redundancy packages. When your small business goes bust, there aint no money in the pot for redundancy. A mate who sat next to me at sms turned up to work one morning, where he had worked for 15+ years and the company had gone. No consultation, no warning, no redundancy package.... nothing.

 

So much for the Condems stating that most of the public sector jobs that have been lost,will be picked up by the private sector.According to the BBC news on Friday,just a very small fraction of people made redundant from public sector jobs have found new employment.

Yet another reason to prove that the policies of this shambolic government are totally failing!

 

Yes, the reason why are still reeling from the worst recession since WW2 is d own to this shambolic government

[bridge too far]

...

 

 

Still small when compared to those that have lost their jobs in the private sector over the last 3 years, many of whom didn't get generous redundancy packages. When your small business goes bust, there aint no money in the pot for redundancy. A mate who sat next to me at sms turned up to work one morning, where he had worked for 15+ years and the company had gone. No consultation, no warning, no redundancy package.... nothing.

...

 

Your mate is entitled to a state funded redundancy package, I believe.

[um pahars]

however my sympathy goes to those lower paid private sector workers who are more likely to lose their jobs, have no voice, are more likely to be exploited and are the ones who are being ****ed over the most.

 

I think the support for the minimum wage (a very progressive social policy that was vehemently lobbied against by certain sections of the polticial and business spectrum) demonstrates quite clearly that there is compassion, empathy and support for those who find themselves at the lower end of the wage spectrum.

 

A mate who sat next to me at sms turned up to work one morning, where he had worked for 15+ years and the company had gone. No consultation, no warning, no redundancy package.... nothing.

 

He has my utmost sympathy and support at being treated unfairly (IMHO), but I'm not sure I agree with this race to the bottom.

 

Rather than bemoan those who are earning a fair wage under fair terms from a fair employer, we seem to be berating them because they haven't been treated as harshly as others. Methinks we would be better off looking at what support, protection and terms we can give to those who are being harshly treated (private or public) and what incentives or support we can give to their employers to act in a more "fair" manner.

 

It is the same when people trot out the line that you should be grateful you get a pension in the Public Sector as many in the private sector haven't got one. Well rather than drag us all down to the poverty line and storing up problems when a large percentage of the population retire with no wedge put aside, how about the Government, employers and employees start working together (and yes steps have been taken in this direction) to provide everyone with a fair pension.

 

The race to the bottom mentality is not something to be proud of.

[LGTL]

I think the support for the minimum wage (a very progressive social policy that was vehemently lobbied against by certain sections of the polticial and business spectrum) demonstrates quite clearly that there is compassion, empathy and support for those who find themselves at the lower end of the wage spectrum.

 

 

 

He has my utmost sympathy and support at being treated unfairly (IMHO), but I'm not sure I agree with this race to the bottom.

 

Rather than bemoan those who are earning a fair wage under fair terms from a fair employer, we seem to be berating them because they haven't been treated as harshly as others. Methinks we would be better off looking at what support, protection and terms we can give to those who are being harshly treated (private or public) and what incentives or support we can give to their employers to act in a more "fair" manner.

 

It is the same when people trot out the line that you should be grateful you get a pension in the Public Sector as many in the private sector haven't got one. Well rather than drag us all down to the poverty line and storing up problems when a large percentage of the population retire with no wedge put aside, how about the Government, employers and employees start working together (and yes steps have been taken in this direction) to provide everyone with a fair pension.

 

The race to the bottom mentality is not something to be proud of.

 

The point in bold is absolutely spot on. There is a massive case of "well he/she/they was/were unfairly treated, so everyone else should be" regardless of EVERYONE knowing the terms and conditions of their job. As you say, rather then bemoan those who get a decent deal, we should be seeing what can be done for those that don't.

[Johnny Bognor]

He has my utmost sympathy and support at being treated unfairly (IMHO), but I'm not sure I agree with this race to the bottom.

 

It wasn't a case of being treated in any way, the company had gone pop.

 

 

Rather than bemoan those who are earning a fair wage under fair terms from a fair employer, we seem to be berating them because they haven't been treated as harshly as others. Methinks we would be better off looking at what support, protection and terms we can give to those who are being harshly treated (private or public) and what incentives or support we can give to their employers to act in a more "fair" manner.

 

I do agree. It just gets my goat that many of the lefties on here get their knickers in a twist when the public sector have to tighten their belts, yet the silence was deafening when thousands of private sector workers were being laid off on a daily basis from 2008 onwards.

 

It is the same when people trot out the line that you should be grateful you get a pension in the Public Sector as many in the private sector haven't got one. Well rather than drag us all down to the poverty line and storing up problems when a large percentage of the population retire with no wedge put aside, how about the Government, employers and employees start working together (and yes steps have been taken in this direction) to provide everyone with a fair pension.

 

The race to the bottom mentality is not something to be proud of.

 

Neither is the "hard done by" mentality when in reality there are far more who have it far worse

 

Oh and call me a cynic, but I wonder what d ate will be chosen? November the 5th me up

Edited 18 September, 2011 by Johnny Bognor

[um pahars]

It wasn't a case of being treated in any way, the company had gone pop.

 

I would have thought the state would have provided some minimum redundancy payments and perthaps we should be looking at ways to augment these to get employers to ensure payments are made (obviously a bit of a minefield and a push in these tough times, but the same could have been said about legislating for a minimum wage).

 

Your mate was hard done by, no question about that and I'm sure would have sympathies with many on here, but I don't feel that justifies "attacks" on those who have been fairly treated.

 

I would say the problem lies more with the "unfair" treament of your friend rather then the "fair" treatment of others. How about being progressivbe and trying to raise standards rather than just dumbing down.

 

I do agree. It just gets my goat that many of the lefties on here get their knickers in a twist when the public sector have to tighten their belts, yet the silence was deafening when thousands of private sector workers were being laid off on a daily basis from 2008 onwards.

 

I think support of the minimum wage showed a great deal of empathy and support.

 

I also think it would be fair to say that a "true leftie" would just be as concerned for those earning a pittance and being sacked from Compass Cleaning up the hospital as they would for a p/t librarian up the Civic.

 

Neither is the "hard done by" mentality when in reality there are far more who have it far worse

 

I don't really see a "hard done by" mentality that you obviously do, and as stated above I'm just not comfortable with the "think yourself lucky" approach in these situations. I accept its use in many situations (particularly when you see how some poor souls around the world are living), but I'd rather be looking to raise standards by moving forward.

[Johnny Bognor]

I would have thought the state would have provided some minimum redundancy payments and perthaps we should be looking at ways to augment these to get employers to ensure payments are made (obviously a bit of a minefield and a push in these tough times, but the same could have been said about legislating for a minimum wage).

 

Yes there is state redundancy from NI contributions. THe problem is Um, when a company goes bust, there is no money for redundancy (as a former accountant, I thought you would und ers tand that). The only way round this is to make employers put aside cash for these scenarios, but that is in an ideal world, when many companies are fighting to survive. The min wage was introduced at a time when the economy was in good health an was growing

 

Your mate was hard done by, no question about that and I'm sure would have sympathies with many on here, but I don't feel that justifies "attacks" on those who have been fairly treated. I would say the problem lies more with the "unfair" treament of your friend rather then the "fair" treatment of others. How about being progressivbe and trying to raise standards rather than just dumbing down.

 

Not dumbing down, jus t a dose of reality

 

 

I think support of the minimum wage showed a great deal of empathy and support.

 

I also think it would be fair to say that a "true leftie" would just be as concerned for those earning a pittance and being sacked from Compass Cleaning up the hospital as they would for a p/t librarian up the Civic.

 

 

 

I don't really see a "hard done by" mentality that you obviously do, and as stated above I'm just not comfortable with the "think yourself lucky" approach in these situations. I accept its use in many situations (particularly when you see how some poor souls around the world are living), but I'd rather be looking to raise standards by moving forward.

 

I don't disagree with moving forward, but this starts with focusing on wealth creation to pay for it.

[um pahars]

Yes there is state redundancy from NI contributions. THe problem is Um, when a company goes bust, there is no money for redundancy (as a former accountant, I thought you would und ers tand that). The only way round this is to make employers put aside cash for these scenarios, but that is in an ideal world, when many companies are fighting to survive. The min wage was introduced at a time when the economy was in good health an was growing

 

I don't have any easy solution, just saying that maybe we need to have a revisit on redundancy protection etc if it is deemed to be so unfair on individuals who have given companies so many years of their working lives. There will always be a trade off regarding how it is funded and much could be same for pensions and employers contributions to these.

 

That said I do remember the catastrophic warnings from the Conservatives and the vested interests of the business world who warned of economic meltdown if companies had to stump up more to cover the minimum wage.

 

Didn't really have that impact though did it, with the economic meltdown being driven by those at the top end of the wage spectrum as opposed to those at the bottom fighting for £3.60 ph.

 

Not dumbing down, jus t a dose of reality

 

I don't doubt it's reality, but firstly, does it have to be?? and secondly, does it make others being treated fairly as being outside the norm and worthy of contempt???

 

I don't disagree with moving forward, but this starts with focusing on wealth creation to pay for it.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

Nothing can be achieved without wealth creation and everything should be done to make this easier, no doubt about that, but I also accept that certain jobs may not be deemed wealth creating (e.g. nurse, firefighters, carers). Additionally, I think you can judge a nations greatness by how it treats ..............................................

[saint_stevo]

I agree to an extent, but they do spend about 99% of their time playing table tennis/pool.

 

That is utter tripe. If not out on a call, they are doing drills, lectures and vehicle/equipment checks. Or they are out on home fire safety visits.

[Jillyanne]

That is utter tripe. If not out on a call, they are doing drills, lectures and vehicle/equipment checks. Or they are out on home fire safety visits.

 

Or up at Asda having a bbq.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Could you please find a non- Daily Mail source to back up this assertion.

 

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2011/02/17/116300/local-authority-social-workers-hit-by-pay-freeze.htm

"Local authority social workers and other care professionals will not receive a pay rise in 2011-12, Local Government Employers has announced."

 

http://www.emergencyshorts.co.uk/story/4990/fire/Fire_Brigades_Union/Fire_Brigades_Union_takes_first_step_to_industrial_action_ballot/

"We’re already facing a pay freeze at a time of raging inflation and major frontline cuts"

 

http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice/clinical-specialisms/management/pay-freeze-confirmed-for-those-earning-over-21000/5027466.article

"Pay freeze confirmed for those earning over £21,000"

 

http://www.teachers.org.uk/files/school-teachers-pay-2011-document.doc

"The Government has confirmed its intention to impose a pay freeze for qualified teachers in 2011 and 2012. With RPI at its highest for twenty years and expected to stay above 4 per cent throughout 2011 and planned increases in pension contributions in April 2012, teachers face a significant real terms pay cut of more than 10 per cent over the next two years."

 

 

What I said was “We dont live in a leftie paradise, where the decifit can be reduced by taxing the bankers and everybody who does a "worthy" job is left alone. Given inflation linked pay rises, decent pensions and early retirement”.

 

Now my English is not too good, but the point I was making was that Public sector and “worthy” jobs can’t have inflation linked pay rises, they will have pay freezes, pension changes ect like the rest of us.. I didn't say that they were, getting these things, but that they should stop complaining because they're not getting them, having previously done so.. All I hear is public sector workers moaning about, what poorly paid private sector workers have put up with for 2/3 years.

[badgerx16]

What I said was “We dont live in a leftie paradise, where the decifit can be reduced by taxing the bankers and everybody who does a "worthy" job is left alone. Given inflation linked pay rises, decent pensions and early retirement”.

 

Now my English is not too good, but the point I was making was that Public sector and “worthy” jobs can’t have inflation linked pay rises, they will have pay freezes, pension changes ect like the rest of us.. I didn't say that they were, getting these things, but that they should stop complaining because they're not getting them, having previously done so.. All I hear is public sector workers moaning about, what poorly paid private sector workers have put up with for 2/3 years.

 

From a Guardian article in 2009

"Here is the history of pay rates, according to Alistair Hatchett of IDS. Between 1993 and 1999 the public workforce was squeezed and downgraded: there were severe shortages, as always happens if pay falls too far behind the world outside. There was a good catch-up between 2000 and 2004: nurses and teachers were recruited and pay rose. But from 2005 until now, pay was cut back again: 2% across the board was the rule. Last year when inflation was 4% the public sector got 2.5%."

 

And then, of course, there is the old chestnut about 'average' pay being higher in the public sector :

 

"But there are five times more unskilled workers in the private than the public sector. The Office of National Statistics' labour force survey shows that only 8.6% of people in the private sector are in professional grades, compared with the 24.5% of public employees who are professionals. All the way up the scale, managers, professionals and skilled trades are taking a 70p an hour pay cut by working for the state."

 

With a much higher proportion of unskilled workers, the 'average' is bound to be lower in the private sector.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jul/06/public-sector-private-pay

 

And then there's this from 2008 :

 

"The 2007-08 pay round can be described as one rule for the private sector, another for the public sector. The private sector is starting to show the marked impact of inflationary pressures, while the cap on public sector pay is keeping a lid on economy-wide figures.

 

Private sector negotiators achieved rises of almost 45% more than those in the public sector, with the mid point (median) of deals in the private sector reaching 4% while in the public sector the figure stood at 3%, and when weighted by numbers of employees, was only 2.75%. This strongly reflects the NHS Agenda For Change settlement (also 2.75%) covering 1.2 million staff. The upper quartile of employees in the private sector (top 25%) received rises of 6% or more."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eqb3uhwWZ38J:www.lrd.org.uk/issue.php%3Fpagid%3D1%26issueid%3D1267+public+sector+pay+relation+to+inflation&cd=75&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

[Johnny Bognor]

And then there's this from 2008 :

 

"The 2007-08 pay round can be described as one rule for the private sector, another for the public sector. The private sector is starting to show the marked impact of inflationary pressures, while the cap on public sector pay is keeping a lid on economy-wide figures.

 

Private sector negotiators achieved rises of almost 45% more than those in the public sector, with the mid point (median) of deals in the private sector reaching 4% while in the public sector the figure stood at 3%, and when weighted by numbers of employees, was only 2.75%. This strongly reflects the NHS Agenda For Change settlement (also 2.75%) covering 1.2 million staff. The upper quartile of employees in the private sector (top 25%) received rises of 6% or more."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:eqb3uhwWZ38J:www.lrd.org.uk/issue.php%3Fpagid%3D1%26issueid%3D1267+public+sector+pay+relation+to+inflation&cd=75&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

 

Hmm. But it doesnt take into account this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/15/unemploymentdata-recession

 

...and of course, this

http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/1783039/uk-insolvency-epidemic-2009

 

 

Which at the time had no bearing on the public sector

[badgerx16]

Hmm. But it doesnt take into account this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/15/unemploymentdata-recession

 

...and of course, this

http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/1783039/uk-insolvency-epidemic-2009

 

 

Which at the time had no bearing on the public sector

 

Yes, but unlike the banks, these failing businesses were not 'too big to fail' and unable to ask for a Government bailout.

 

I am not arguing the semantics of job security in the public & private sectors, where I admit there is more 'risk' in the private, ( but don't assume the public sector had been immune prior to the last 12 months ). The difference between public & private sector employment is that quite a lot the public sector is not operating in a commercially competitive environment, and the 'business' will never be in a position to 'fail' - be it the NHS, the Fire Brigades, the Police, or even the Civil Service.

What I am countering is the assertion that public sector pay is (1) higher in a like for like comparison, and (2) has been afforded inflation indexed pay rises, which I can tell you from bitter experience is patently untrue.