Police response to Millwall disorder

[wessex saint]

After the trouble at the Millwall game I took my own advice and used the correct channels to complain.

Below is the response to my complaint, and specifically about keeping away fans in and the issues around it.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all of what has been written, it is detailed and gives an insight into the reasons why the police are generally not in favour of the tactic.

I wouldn't say it completely restores my faith, but at least it shows a lot of thought goes into their 'policy'

 

 

 

I apologise for the delay in writing to you. It is my first day back from leave and as the Match Commander I wanted to personally respond to your e mail. I am of course disappointed of your assessment of Hampshire Constabulary in respect of policing football but hope that this e mail may give you an explanation of the tactical rationale in respect of how the Southampton V Millwall game was policed. Of course I do apologise on behalf of the Constabulary if you still feel that other tactics should have been used.

 

Specifically in relation to the option to “Hold-Back” Millwall fans as the solution to denying disorder can I explain how and when this can be applied;

 

A “Hold-Back” is a containment, a restriction of the free movement of fans (usually the away fans) in a confined area in the ground (usually the away fans seating). This cannot and does not discriminate between peaceful fans (the vast majority) or those who wish to engage in disorder and as such is a blanket application.

To apply this restriction, there has to be a legal base, a reasoned justification to apply that hold-back, based on the assessed likelihood of disorder between fans. This assessment cannot be based on the often historical reputation that surround certain clubs fan bases but on current intelligence, recent events (i.e. previous season(s)) or fixture specific threat indicators i.e. history between 2 sets of fans. Whilst Millwall fans have a reputation for disorder this does not provide the basis to apply a hold-back in itself and the lack of intelligence or incidents that indicated the potential for disorder denied such application. At the time of making the decision not to apply a hold-back or closure of the North car-park, this was based on the intelligence available that showed there was no pre-meditated interest in confrontation between the 2 risk sets of fans and the fact that both before and during the fixture there had been no significant disorder or indications that disorder would occur other than a brief bit of pushing and shoving between Millwall fans on the Northam segregation divide.

The decision to apply any hold-back or closure of the North Car-park is taken between the Police and the Club and based on this intelligence and events.

Whilst historically used routinely, Hold-Backs are now the exception and only used where absolutely necessary and based on the intelligence / event assessment as pre-described. I have attended a number of other Force area fixtures and have not seen Hold-Backs used any more frequently.

Sometimes, the mixing and movement of fans can actually have a positive effect on the denying of disorder, as the small minority of fans intent on disorder are hugely outnumbered and there is not the crowd support for disorder to occur. Both Millwall and Southampton fans had mixed across the city and on the footprint of the ground in the pre-match phase without issue.

The need for a hold-back must also be balanced against the tactical capability in applying it. Holding a large number of fans (2,000 in this case) in a seated and terraced area against their will is hugely resource intensive. The fans do not sit still and passively wait and as such the potential for disorder increases. If it does occur, the impact on crowd dynamics within that confined area is likely to lead to injury of either fans or stewards / police. The last time I applied a hold-back saw 2 of my officers pushed down the vomitary stairs by the pressure and actions of fans and whilst I will always impose a Hold-back where justified I must also take account of the risks in applying it.

Whilst the North Car Park offers a flat, wider and therefore safer sterile area to hold away fans, this in turn can create a visible stand-off between the 2 sets of fans with Police in the middle (as per the last local derby). To achieve this Hold-back in the North car park demands the closure of the whole North car park for Home Fans, the relocation of the number of vehicles that park there, the re-routing of Southampton fans and a resource intensive creation of a sterile cordon. We do apply this when the need demands but as demonstrated by the Southampton V Portsmouth fixture this still did not deny those Southampton fans who were intent on generating disorder and confronting the Portsmouth fans across Britannia Road.

Based on the intelligence, incidents before and during the match where fans mixed freely and without incident, this made a hold-back both inappropriate and without legal basis.

 

 

The disorder that occurred in the North Car Park was apparently triggered by a confrontation between 2 small groups of Southampton and Millwall fans when a Southampton fan allegedly repeatedly spat at Millwall fans across a steward cordon. This quickly escalated and violence was directed towards Police as they tried to apply a widening sterile area between the 2 sets of fans and ultimately demanded the deployment of dogs and batons to push the Millwall fans out of the car park and up Britannia Road. Whilst Football violence is never pretty, I am content that the speed and robustness of policing tactics to push the fans out of the car park was both proportionate and necessary.

 

I have 26 years experience in Policing and commanding football and have seen huge changes in the levels of resources, nature of the stadia and the tactics available to us. The days of routine hold-backs, total boxing of fans and putting them on a single train are gone and denied by both a shift in powers and indeed fans expectations and the level of policing resources available at Football. Policing football is not an exact science and hindsight isn’t available to the Commanders on the day. They must make tactical decisions based on a legal and informed basis and whilst intelligence and assessment of events is continually updated, the actual triggers for violence are usually immediate (as in this case) and demand the Police to respond as quickly and effectively as possible given the circumstances and resources available. Neither fans were blameless on this occasion, and though it was a significant number of Millwall fans who directed the higher level of violence at Police, the vast majority of both sets of fans did not involve themselves but were in effect subject to the responses to the actions of this small minority.

 

Whilst the application of a Hold-Back on away fans might seem an easy solution, the reality of applying it and critically the legal threshold upon which this can be applied means that it will always be the exception, must be based on provenanced intelligence or key events and cannot be based solely on clubs reputations. It is neither fair nor legal to impose restrictions of movement on what is a majority of football supporters just based on reputation or history. Had it not been for the actions of a few fans on both sides this disorder would never have occurred. It may be that more directive and restrictive procedures are applied for the return of Millwall to St Mary's next season as a result of the disorder as this now gives some currency and provenance but again this cannot be a pre-determined tactic.

 

I hope that maybe whilst not satisfying your personal view that I have explained the framework within which the Police and the Club have to operate. I am grateful for your E mail and happy to correspond further if felt necessary.

 

RB

Kind Regards

[rocknrollman no2]

Thanks for posting the police reply to your concerns wessex saint.

I wonder if the police response will be the same when Pompey come to St Marys?

No doubt both sets of fans will be allowed out at the same time,whilst the police will sit back with their cameras.

Then when the trouble starts,the police will say that was not expected.

[Spudders]

It may be that more directive and restrictive procedures are applied for the return of Millwall to St Mary's next season

You only have to read this to realise the guy is clueless, what on earth makes him think Millwall will be in the Premiership next season!!!

 

In all seriousness, at least he took the time to provide a pretty detailed response.

[Clifford Nelson]

Since all measures were taken at the Leeds game I would have thought that Millwall fans ought to have been rated up there with the Leeds fans, and Pompey at least as far as the derby is concerned. To blame some Saints fan is a bit pathetic. I knew, and I expect most others do as well, that trigger happy opponents will be provoked by some of our lot. If it hadn't been this one, it would have been somebody else, and if not one of ours they would have gone for it themselves. It doesn't feel that the issue is really addressed.

[cellone]

Thank's for putting that up. An interesting read. A shame that the right's of the innocent allows the fully intent on being guilty to do so.

[waggy]

Thanks for posting the police reply to your concerns wessex saint.

I wonder if the police response will be the same when Pompey come to St Marys?

No doubt both sets of fans will be allowed out at the same time,whilst the police will sit back with their cameras.

Then when the trouble starts,the police will say that was not expected.

 

why do I get the feeling that no matter what the police response, to some people the ob will have got it wrong.

[Um Bongo]

From that, I think it's safe to say Pompey will be staying behind for a little while.....

[Pedro]

A load of liberal twaddle, had someone been seriously injured or killed in the fracas the police would be back tracking and covering their arses pronto. I'm a law abiding mid 60's guy but having had dealings with the police complaints commission in the past I simply dislike them with a vengeance and witnessed first hand how they all cover for each other. At the Pompey game they didn't police the trouble, they let it occur, filmed it and then picked people off.

[aintforever]

The Police have a real problem in admitting it when they get something wrong don't they.

[Rebel]

It will be interesting to see how they police the Notts Forest game as the last few times we've played them there has been trouble somewhere in town - although it has been while. Didn't they smash up the Lizard Lounge's windows many years ago?

[Denzil]

What a load of guff. No wonder hardly anyone has any respect for those clowns.

[SuperMikey]

I'm wondering whether the policing for the P*mpey game will be heavy-handed or non-existent. Hard to guess really.

[adrian lord]

An articulate and considered response, not a short brush-off.

 

(I suspect he cut and pasted sections from his Post Incident Report to the Chief Super though)

Edited 5 September, 2011 by adrian lord

[RobM]

Nice to see somebody take the time to respond like that. No real surprise that it was our own fans who did the provoking, but then it's usually idiots reacting to idiots so if our own fans didn't start it, theirs would have.

 

As said by somebody else already, it really doesn't matter what the Police would have said, they will always be wrong in some peoples eyes.

[Stoozer]

The Police can't do right for doing wrong. Whatever the response some people on here would complain. I actually think his response makes sense.

[lordswoodsaints]

These days the police are just looking for an easy life and letting everybody out at the same time is the easy option IMO.

It's a case of open all the doors and keep your fingers crossed,most of the time it works but sometimes keeping your fingers crossed and hoping for the best doesn't cut it.

Why don't the club get involved and tell the police to keep away fans in? After all they are the customer....or is it a case of get everybody out and wash your hands of what happens outside.

[RedWillie]

Yes indeed, I rememebr this as was in the bedfords. Large group of forest in the Lizard. I think they had a guy who had become a bit of a 'face' amongst them. Can't remember his name but he made headlines as he died a few years later in Spain....funny how things stick in your mind.(scarrat or something similar???) Witnessed Lizard lounge windows going in after saints fans threw two arm chairs threw them. Also there were about 4 old bill keeping the two sets apart but they managed it by battening anyone that got near them

It will be interesting to see how they police the Notts Forest game as the last few times we've played them there has been trouble somewhere in town - although it has been while. Didn't they smash up the Lizard Lounge's windows many years ago?

[VectisSaint]

The last time I applied a hold-back saw 2 of my officers pushed down the vomitary stairs by the pressure and actions of fans

Pedant alert: I wonder if he had to look up the word vomitary? If so he should have checked the spelling.

[1576]

It will be interesting to see how they police the Notts Forest game as the last few times we've played them there has been trouble somewhere in town - although it has been while. Didn't they smash up the Lizard Lounge's windows many years ago?

 

Paul Scarrott got a kicking more like.

[sandwichsaint]

These days the police are just looking for an easy life and letting everybody out at the same time is the easy option IMO.

It's a case of open all the doors and keep your fingers crossed,most of the time it works but sometimes keeping your fingers crossed and hoping for the best doesn't cut it.

Why don't the club get involved and tell the police to keep away fans in? After all they are the customer....or is it a case of get everybody out and wash your hands of what happens outside.

 

Did you actually read the OB's comments? Probably something to do with it being a) potentially illegal, and b) potentially dangerous?

[RedWillie]

OB ar damned if they do and damned if they don't. Of course if idiots didn't start in the first place then the world would be a peaceful place.

[Draino76]

An excellent, considered response from the OB.

 

I totally get it; it's just a shame some other posters didn't.

[Golden Balls]

I'm sorry, but how could they not see trouble coming?

 

The north car park used to get closed for no reason at all sometimes.

 

There were bottles being thrown each way, goading between the fans and they tore up the segregation. I'm sorry, but to say there was no evidence to suspect trouble is a cop out.

 

As I've said before, my opinion is they were looking for trouble to start to justify their numbers and avoid cuts.

[fromdayone]

How f*cking ridiculous!! Are they saying no matter what takes place during the game between rival sets of fans, controversial match incidents etc etc, they cant legally implement a 'hold back' unless it is a pre-arranged decision made BEFORE the match???

Complete horse****.

[up and away]

This is a totally flawed response which does not put the emphasis on what requires to be done, rather than civil liberties getting restricted.

 

The explanation as to why hold back was not deployed is totally naive and flawed. Prior to the game there was no wind up between rival supporters, during the game there was plenty. We even had the Millwall fans react to the goal in no uncertain terms. When you let two sets of fans out after all that posturing and bravado is just asking for trouble. The Police have a duty to ensure public safety, not concern themselves with infringing human rights for 1/2 an hour by asking them to remain seated for their and our safety. The lame response that two Police officers fell down the stairs during the last hold back only highlights what precautions and actions are required to police such a technique successfully, not an excuse for not deploying such a tactic.

 

We all know and have suffered hold back, but it is the most successful method of dealing with such a situation. To take a chance on Millwall over all fans safety is really a very poor decision.

[BILLY]

Not a personal response - I got exactly the same! I replied to him saying "it will be interesting to see how you police the two derby games this season then!

[rocknrollman no2]

why do I get the feeling that no matter what the police response, to some people the ob will have got it wrong.

Im not really anti police(though i dont particually like them),i am just expressing my opinion on past experiences and observations from previous football matches.

[alpine_saint]

I thought it was a fair explanation.

 

The OB get far too much stick; they have a sh*tty job to do with one hand tied behind their back.

[Crab Lungs]

We should get a fan on the matchday police board.

[diggers]

Yes indeed, I rememebr this as was in the bedfords. Large group of forest in the Lizard. I think they had a guy who had become a bit of a 'face' amongst them. Can't remember his name but he made headlines as he died a few years later in Spain....funny how things stick in your mind.(scarrat or something similar???) Witnessed Lizard lounge windows going in after saints fans threw two arm chairs threw them. Also there were about 4 old bill keeping the two sets apart but they managed it by battening anyone that got near them

 

scullard - He's dead I think.

[s0108787]

OB give a a fully justified and reasoned argument there. Some pepole just have a problem with authority

[aintforever]

no significant disorder or indications that disorder would occur other than a brief bit of pushing and shoving between Millwall fans on the Northam segregation divide.

 

I'm sorry but this bit is complete b*ll*x. The Milwall fans were ripping up the netting trying to get at the Northam. That is the first time I have ever seen that at SMS, exactly how far do they have to get before they are considered a threat?

[Denzil]

So how can the OB justify closing the car park for Crewe Alexandra (in 2006) but not Millwall?

 

Would love to hear his answer to that.

 

Jokers.

[Legod Third Coming]

What this really says is as follows:

 

"Years of liberal political correctness has denied us (the Old Bill) the right to treat people how they should be treated based on how they behave. Years ago we could have treated football fans from Millwall based on their reputation. Today, it would infringe their human rights. Do not blame us, blame a lack of positive male role models and countless faceless beaurocrats in Brussels.."

 

And do you know what I agree.

 

I have never veen involved in football violence. I deplore the holdback. But whever I have had it applied, I abide by it peacefully recognising it is a small price to pay for my safety and security.

[Legod Third Coming]

I thought it was a fair explanation.

 

The OB get far too much stick; they have a sh*tty job to do with one hand tied behind their back.

 

One of your rare posts I agree with.

[aintforever]

What this really says is as follows:

 

"Years of liberal political correctness has denied us (the Old Bill) the right to treat people how they should be treated based on how they behave. Years ago we could have treated football fans from Millwall based on their reputation. Today, it would infringe their human rights. Do not blame us, blame a lack of positive male role models and countless faceless beaurocrats in Brussels.."

 

And do you know what I agree.

 

I have never veen involved in football violence. I deplore the holdback. But whever I have had it applied, I abide by it peacefully recognising it is a small price to pay for my safety and security.

 

That's nonsense, my mate is a Millwall fan and Police can do whatever they want because of their reputation. Being held back is the norm for them.

 

For Leeds away the other season they could only get a ticket by picking it up on route at a service station.

Edited 5 September, 2011 by aintforever

[Reggie Dunlop]

Was there not a sure fire warning that trouble was brewing when the Millwall fans tore the netting and surged towards the Saints fans during the match (which he seems to deny in his letter), I would not say oh that was just handbags at dawn, Stewards and police clambering over the seats to stop them and a camera man not sure whether to film the match or run for it - in hindsight should of filmed the Millwall fans then the police would of had some idea what went on.

 

Also if there is no evidence of trouble between the 2 sets of fans why is it that we are kept back when we have gone to Millwall in the past and will it be different this time because of what went on at this match hmm let me think.........we know the answer to that now don't we??????

[Johnny Bognor]

Yes indeed, I rememebr this as was in the bedfords. Large group of forest in the Lizard. I think they had a guy who had become a bit of a 'face' amongst them. Can't remember his name but he made headlines as he died a few years later in Spain....funny how things stick in your mind.(scarrat or something similar???) Witnessed Lizard lounge windows going in after saints fans threw two arm chairs threw them. Also there were about 4 old bill keeping the two sets apart but they managed it by battening anyone that got near them

 

It was Paul scarrot, a Forest and England 'face'. He had a Forest tattoo on the inside of his bottom lip.

 

 

It kicked off when one of ours accidentally dropped his pint on one of them. It wasn't 1576 BTW.

Edited 5 September, 2011 by Johnny Bognor

[for_heaven's_Saint]

Thing that interested me was that rather than 'letting both sets of fans out at once' for the Pompey game as most fans saw it, the police were, supposedly, holding back the fans in what they considered a safer environment then inside the stadium, where officers are liable to get injured.

[Wes Tender]

A very thought provoking response from the OB, well argued and reasoned and he explained succinctly the pressures they are under having to consider peoples' rights and their obligations. I had previously formed the opinion that after the fracas following our goal, that they were negligent in not taking steps to contain the Millwall fans after the match, but in the light of what he has said, I'm persuaded that they are between a rock and a hard place over situations like this.

[Legod Third Coming]

A very thought provoking response from the OB, well argued and reasoned and he explained succinctly the pressures they are under having to consider peoples' rights and their obligations. I had previously formed the opinion that after the fracas following our goal, that they were negligent in not taking steps to contain the Millwall fans after the match, but in the light of what he has said, I'm persuaded that they are between a rock and a hard place over situations like this.

 

Not helped by the fact that people expect higher standards of perfection from the police than would be the case in their own lives. It cannot benefit the police to have trouble at a football match. For one thing, it is simply work that they could well do without. So you have to assume they do their best. Will it always be right? Sure, if hindsight spectacales were freely available on the NHS.

 

Shame more people don't have respect for the job they do and the fact the police exist to uphold the law for the benefit of society - not themselves.

[darren2]

It was Paul scarrot, a Forest and England 'face'. He had a Forest tattoo on the inside of his bottom lip.

 

 

It kicked off when one of ours accidentally dropped his pint on one of them. It wasn't 1576 BTW.

 

He's not dead, he's actually turned his life around. found this on him: http://www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/about/our_people/chief_officer_team/assistant_chief_constable_local_policing_and_citizen_focus/

[Gemmel]

Shame more people don't have respect for the job they do and the fact the police exist to uphold the law for the benefit of society - not themselves.

 

I have complete respect for the Police and dispair at the way the younger generation hold them in such contempt, but I stand by my comments on the previous thread that they actively encourage or incite trouble at football. I am afraid I have seen it too many times to put it down to incompetance and am not swayed by a cut and paste email.

 

They have an incredibly hard job and deal with the dregs of society, maybe by allowing things to kick off, it makes it easier to pick out the worst ones and take them down, but if they really wanted to avert these types of confrontations they could...... they just choose not to and people will have to work out why for themselves.

[benjii]

I'm a dinlo and I'm angry. ANGRY! Bloody police and their nuanced approach. I demand an authoritarian response. Grrrr! Anger! Look at the millions injured in the Biblical SFC v MFC riots 2011 FFS!!!

 

Oooo, I'm one angry dinlo.

[cellone]

I'm a dinlo and I'm angry. ANGRY! Bloody police and their nuanced approach. I demand an authoritarian response. Grrrr! Anger! Look at the millions injured in the Biblical SFC v MFC riots 2011 FFS!!!

 

Oooo, I'm one angry dinlo.

 

Sound's more along the lines of quite miffed or a bit cross.

[70's Mike]

the proof of the statement will be when Pompey visit , unless intelligence suggests there will be no trouble because we live in the same county and support the same cricket team

[Thedelldays]

There was hardly any trouble.. Just a few nobs giving it the big one

[wild-saint]

some of the comments me laugh , tore the netting back, ripped the netting off, surged across to the home fans....... and then unleashed some particlarly strong language whilst gesturing at the s thaints fans. I must say those fans in the northam must have been left traumatised.

[Wes Tender]

Not helped by the fact that people expect higher standards of perfection from the police than would be the case in their own lives. It cannot benefit the police to have trouble at a football match. For one thing, it is simply work that they could well do without. So you have to assume they do their best. Will it always be right? Sure, if hindsight spectacales were freely available on the NHS.

 

Shame more people don't have respect for the job they do and the fact the police exist to uphold the law for the benefit of society - not themselves.

 

I respect the Police and the job they do, but like some others feel that their standards have slipped over the past decade and that's probably due to my perception that too many of them are driving about in BMWs persecuting motorists.

 

But I take issue with why the the public shouldn't expect higher standards of perfection from them than would be the case in their own lives. Why ever not? It is their job. It's what they are trained for, it's what they do, preserve and uphold law and order. The policing of football matches is all part of the job description, just as demonstrations, pop concerts and other large public gatherings are. Again, they are trained in this work and those officers who do not know how to react properly under scenes of stress and provocation should not be assigned to that work.

 

Just a few observations; I've not generally got it in for them and still feel that our Police are amongst the best. I've experienced other police forces around the World where bribery and corruption is rife and thank God ours are generally honest.

[dubai_phil]

some of the comments me laugh , tore the netting back, ripped the netting off, surged across to the home fans....... and then unleashed some particlarly strong language whilst gesturing at the s thaints fans. I must say those fans in the northam must have been left traumatised.

 

OK so here is a plan.

 

Considering some tourist has been traumatised at the sight of Fish in a Fishing Harbour, and using the UK's Ambulance Chasing legislation to the full, you have a letter from the Police and you have your trauma and now need to go to the Doc and get a week off work & some anti-panic pills then you can get an Ambulance chaser to sue the Police for you.

 

They will of course settle out of court, and bingo, you end up with enough cash to pay for your ST next year AND the parking fees for when you go to collect it.

 

Simples