david in sweden Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 (edited) As soon as I read the terrible storyline about Dan Seaborne, I asked my self that question. With Jaidi still injured... we don't have a lot more CB's to choose from, and so do we go for Aaron..or Hooiveld. This is of course, is subject to whether NA is satisfied with his level of fitness, and has integrated himself into the squad well enough by Saturday, but I don't think it's such a stupid q. or one that we should be afraid to consider. If the play Martin (the obvious choice and someone who has surely surpassed all our expectations after moving from EASTLEIGH.) then the new guy will sit on the bench, however..with so few alternatives we have to get the fellow in the mix ASAP. As a journeyman he has certainly been around and maybe a bit of a dark horse, and better than we think..someone just waiting for the right team to play in. We need to know if he is reliable. ...Looking back..I recall Chris Marsden went from utility squad player to legend in the space of a season, and he fitted in that side very well, as did older players like Glenn Cockerill. Ricky Lambert, had a bit of a tour round the lower divisons before settling in at Bristol, where he was hardly the "star player " (though he did score goals, of course). As we have a home game, and the fans need to be "introduced " to Jos, it wouldn't surprise me to see him named (subject to fitness) from the start...and get himself involved directly rather than sit on the bench for three/ four weeks before getting a 10 min. sub chance in some pathetic away match....What do you think ? Edited 5 September, 2011 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_lambden Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 It'll be Hooiveld I should imagine. Not that I have a problem with Martin but we need someone who is comfortable on the left side of CB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Fonte is better on the right, Martin is pretty much right footed, his left is a swinger. Hooiveld is a natural left sided defender, I would be surprised if he doesn't play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 NA know's what he'll be getting with Martin, whether he's seen enough of Hooiveld in the few days he's been with us who knows. Martin has had a few ganes under his belt so has match fitness, don't know of Hooivelds situation and as I doubt many, if any, of us have seen him play I'm not sure anyone can give an answer based on much at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintstr1 Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 I have seen JH play on a few occassions and I think he will definately start on Saturday , I will be very surprised if NA dont think the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
once_bitterne Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Jaidi fit yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 In signing a left-footed player it seems clear that Adkins was looking not just for a central defender but for a complement to Fonte - and probably more of a "stay at home" defender so Fonte can keep pushing forward when the opportunity presents itself. Given that they've had time to work on things, I'd be really surprised if Hooiveld doesn't start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Tough call I like Martin (CB legend of the future -I hope) but playing a left sided CB does make more sense if we have one. Is Hooiveld match fit? I think that will be the deal breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversaint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Adkins doesn't seem to put new players straight in, therefore I would expect Martin to start on Saturday while Hooiveld finds his feet at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Fonte is better on the right, Martin is pretty much right footed, his left is a swinger. Hooiveld is a natural left sided defender, I would be surprised if he doesn't play. Agree, except I recall someone posting that they'd spoken to Hooiveld and he himself said he was a couple of weeks away from full fitness. So if it is a choice between a fully fit but right-footed Martin and an 80% fit but left-footed Hooiveld ....hmmm. Not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Agree, except I recall someone posting that they'd spoken to Hooiveld and he himself said he was a couple of weeks away from full fitness. Yes, I was just about to mention that: without checking but I think it was on the OS. Like you I'm not sure, but NA sees them in training... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulwantsapint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 No fear George burley has been given NA some tips on which players could do the job so jonno quick will partner Fonte at cb unless J Wright can re-sign for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Agree, except I recall someone posting that they'd spoken to Hooiveld and he himself said he was a couple of weeks away from full fitness. So if it is a choice between a fully fit but right-footed Martin and an 80% fit but left-footed Hooiveld ....hmmm. Not sure. He'll have had 10 days between signing and his first game. He may not have been match sharp when he arrived but there would be something pretty wrong if his fitness was that bad that after 10 days training he's still only 80%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 If he doesn't play the new bloke, it would make his loan to us completely pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 I'd imagine alot will depend on how he trains this week, it would make sense to play him in positional footballing sense, but if he's not sure he's up to it fitness wise at the mo (he hasn't played a game for a while) then he may opt for Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 If he doesn't play the new bloke, it would make his loan to us completely pointless. That's my take on it. He can't be far away from 100% fitness, just maybe a bit rusty with a lack of first team football. But he's a 6'4" centre half, not exactly a twinkle toes midfielder, so less succeptible you'd have thought. If, after 10 days training with his new teammates, he can't displace Martin (who is effectively our 4th choice centre back) then I'll begin to wonder what this transfer is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammysaint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Have to say some people dont rate Seabourne but he has done a good job in the middle with fonte, not making mistakes that are costing us goals and being quite steady at CB, now hes injured after this assault its now messed up our CB partnership, as we now need this celtic guy to be good as martin can do a job but i dont feel he can week in week out he needs experience every week in league one 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilf Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Did you know Hooiveld translates from the Dutch as "hay field" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenSaint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 id play martin, first game against leeds did well, only one error and they only scored in the 90th? through a iffy penalty. New guy probably needs to get settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 It seems that some people do not realise that not all CBs are the same. Playing 2 CBs you need one predominately right and one left-footed. Why would we play Martin on the left when he plays on the right. Burley used to get (rightly) lambasted for playing players out of position, yet many are suggesting just the same thing. If Jaidi is still injured then it is a no-brainer to play Jos. Martin would play if Fonte were injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avenue Saint Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Martin has potential and has played ok so far. But hayfield surely has to start, more games with fonte, hopefully more stronger they'll become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 It seems that some people do not realise that not all CBs are the same. Playing 2 CBs you need one predominately right and one left-footed. Why would we play Martin on the left when he plays on the right. Burley used to get (rightly) lambasted for playing players out of position, yet many are suggesting just the same thing. If Jaidi is still injured then it is a no-brainer to play Jos. Martin would play if Fonte were injured. Is Jaidi left footed then? as he and Jose played loads of games together last season and I thought they were both right footers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 It seems that some people do not realise that not all CBs are the same. Playing 2 CBs you need one predominately right and one left-footed. Why would we play Martin on the left when he plays on the right. Burley used to get (rightly) lambasted for playing players out of position, yet many are suggesting just the same thing. If Jaidi is still injured then it is a no-brainer to play Jos. Martin would play if Fonte were injured. No you don't, I could give you any number of examples of how this isn't a pre-requisite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 No you don't, I could give you any number of examples of how this isn't a pre-requisite. I'm sure many of those will be from our very own starting lineups! It's nice to have that balance, it's not essential by any means. To answer the OP - Hooiveld. As much as I admire Martin, I'd like to see Hooiveld do well and form a solid partnership with Fonte and that has a better chance of happening if they both play together consistently and as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsk Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Adkins doesn't seem to put new players straight in, therefore I would expect Martin to start on Saturday while Hooiveld finds his feet at the club. You're right, he doesn't seem to put them straight in, which is why I thought he would stick with Seaborne despite signing Hooiveld. However, as that is not now possible i think it is a close call to make. Fortunately it isn't my call and Adkins will have the benefit of seeing both CBs in training all week before he has to make his decision. I think he will go with the new guy, unless he is not match fit enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cellone Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Hooiveld but god help him if he make's a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 5 September, 2011 Share Posted 5 September, 2011 Did you know Hooiveld translates from the Dutch as "hay field" ? Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyNorthernSaints Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Rather Jaidi but guess he's injured. Need to be careful, the Celtic lad won't be used to this standard. Maybe Martin would be best, he knows the team and has done OK in previous games. I don't know how I'd carry on if we let DMG score. Why would he not be used to this standard? he had a playing career before Celtic. I'm sure Blackburn and Wigan think Goodwillie and Maloney are up to their standard to play following their recent signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudamore Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Did you know Hooiveld translates from the Dutch as "hay field" ? Fabrice Fernandes would have run rings round him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 September, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September, 2011 (edited) Rather Jaidi but guess he's injured. Need to be careful, the Celtic lad won't be used to this standard.[/b][/b] Maybe Martin would be best, he knows the team and has done OK in previous games. I don't know how I'd carry on if we let DMG score. Although the SPL isn't the same standard as the English Prem. I don't think there can be that much difference, and besides it's not down to the players ability/skills if the manager doesn't pick them because they don't fit his style of play. Strachan was...one of the better managers we've had since the Bates /McMenemy era, but he certainly had favourites, he always used Williams at CB and played Telfer regardless, and had no real use for players who didn't fit his "plan"..(thats if he really had one.) ANDERS SVENSSON said in a Swedish TV interview that he liked Strachan but WGS told him (and Fernandes) at one time that they were both good players - but he couldn't play them both in the same game ! He never used Delgado, who was later (apparantly) fit enough to play in the 2002 World Cup for Equador ..and scored ! Hooiveld has played in half-a dozen countries and got hero status a couple of years ago when he played in the AIK side that won the double in Sweden. Player salaries in Sweden are **** and it's no wonder he moved on to other things. Unlike Martin, he certainly doesn't lack experience having played over 160 first team games in 5 different European countries ..so why shouldn't he succeed?. He may become a great success..and being on loan...at least it won't have cost us a couple of £ millions to find out before January. Edited 6 September, 2011 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerceSaint28 Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 The thing i don't understand is that we have had the whole summer to find a left footed centre half...we have a good scouting network supposedly...we definitely have money to spend so why not get somebody in of real quality at the back to compliment Fonte at the back and make us really strong at the back?? Really seems like we missed a trick in the window if im honest...Jemal deal collapsed, the Gorkss thing was a PR nightmare and then Fontaine had a crocked ankle.. It seems like we panicked and went for whoever was available on deadline day as 1/ they don't seem confident enough of his ability to give him the number 5 shirt 2/ It is a short term loan until January Personally we had made some cracking signings but the failure to get a centre half and a striker was a real balls up IMO and i hope doesn't cost us promotion. Oh i would play Martin on saturday btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 The thing i don't understand is that we have had the whole summer to find a left footed centre half...we have a good scouting network supposedly...we definitely have money to spend so why not get somebody in of real quality at the back to compliment Fonte at the back and make us really strong at the back?? Really seems like we missed a trick in the window if im honest...Jemal deal collapsed, the Gorkss thing was a PR nightmare and then Fontaine had a crocked ankle.. It seems like we panicked and went for whoever was available on deadline day as 1/ they don't seem confident enough of his ability to give him the number 5 shirt 2/ It is a short term loan until January Personally we had made some cracking signings but the failure to get a centre half and a striker was a real balls up IMO and i hope doesn't cost us promotion. Oh i would play Martin on saturday btw TBF though How many teams, and we are talking even real big hitters in the likes of your Utd's and City's, chelsea's etc. Have identified areas where they need strengthening and it just doesn't happen. Yes it is a failure on our part but not really one out of the obvious. I would imagine the target this year was to build a team capable of being competetive, but we have had a great start so that may have changed. We have decent attacking options, and more or less decent at the back, we could do with a decent LCB but why rush in ?? The main thing is we have kept belief and not upset the team spirit. If fit I'd play Hoovliet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 TBF though How many teams, and we are talking even real big hitters in the likes of your Utd's and City's, chelsea's etc. Have identified areas where they need strengthening and it just doesn't happen. Yes it is a failure on our part but not really one out of the obvious. I would imagine the target this year was to build a team capable of being competetive, but we have had a great start so that may have changed. We have decent attacking options, and more or less decent at the back, we could do with a decent LCB but why rush in ?? The main thing is we have kept belief and not upset the team spirit. If fit I'd play Hoovliet. The way people are talking you'd think we were letting in 5 a match. The defence could be stronger (hell the whole team could) but it's not terrible. We've had two clean sheets only conceaded to Leeds by a dodge injury time penalty. Leicester have a quaility side (most expensive in champ history I read the other day) and we were poor at the back that day but the defence isn't awful by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 The way people are talking you'd think we were letting in 5 a match. The defence could be stronger (hell the whole team could) but it's not terrible. We've had two clean sheets only conceaded to Leeds by a dodge injury time penalty. Leicester have a quaility side (most expensive in champ history I read the other day) and we were poor at the back that day but the defence isn't awful by any means. Exactly the point I was making mate, it is hardly league 1 standard. If I were to name an NPC first 11 then Fonte would be in it for a start. Seaborne started life well, harding, as much as I agree is our weakest link ATM is still as passionate as with his occasional positional problems aside is still not putting many feet wrong. I would rather we made the right choice then jumped in, I mean, what if they decided Gorkkss didn't have long left in his playing career ? What if Jemal was only interested in the cash and demanded clauses ? We don't know basically. As far as the transfer window was concerned I am happy. Lets give Hoovliet a chance shall we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 September, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September, 2011 (edited) The thing i don't understand is that we have had the whole summer to find a left footed centre half...we have a good scouting network supposedly...we definitely have money to spend so why not get somebody in of real quality at the back to compliment Fonte at the back and make us really strong at the back?? Really seems like we missed a trick in the window if im honest...Jemal deal collapsed, the Gorkss thing was a PR nightmare and then Fontaine had a crocked ankle.. It seems like we panicked and went for whoever was available on deadline day as 1/ they don't seem confident enough of his ability to give him the number 5 shirt 2/ It is a short term loan until January Personally we had made some cracking signings but the failure to get a centre half and a striker was a real balls up IMO and i hope doesn't cost us promotion. Oh i would play Martin on saturday btw During the summer break I'd checked out a lot of sites (not all English) and have my own take on these points, although they are only conclusions on my part based on available info. Jemal was the real target from the start (Swiss club / Cortese connections) and was willing to come as he'd been assured by fellow countryman (Jaidi ) that it would be good to come to SFC. Jemal had " agreed " some sort of deal, but insisted on knowing all the details of his transfer. He was told ..he had a salary agreement with **** club, and details of his transfer deal were not his business. He thought he was due some sort of " cut " of the deal (maybe his agent did / or maybe the agent wanted an extra cut?) but he went back without signing. Goryss was never a target. QPR wanted Puncheon and Warnock wanted to get shot of Gorkyss and thought to do a "swap deal " with a few quid extra to Saints. At the time QPR had no funds, and they baulked at Cortese's (not unreasonable) valuation of £1 million. Warnock's accusations about Cortese's 2-3 week delay with lots of phone calls may only have been follow-ups - are you interested or not - but he (Warnock) acquitted himself cleverly by selling Goryss over the phone to Reading - with a 5 minute phone call - and painting Cortese as the villian. As soon as the new QPR chairman came up with fresh money, Warnock went out spending like a man with six arms and bought half-a-team, then came back for Puncheon - on loan this time - claiming he'd spent all his funds and can we borrow him until New Year!..when they may well be forced to buy him. Obviously Fontaine wasn't on the original shopping list either, but looked a good buy, but something was wrong with the deal - and I don't think it was money..or his much-discussed injury problem either. Maybe something with " personal chemistry". It must have taken some looking to find Hooiveld, but there is a lot of knowledge around in the football world and so he must have some good track record - but in the "wrong " teams. Let's hope that he's agood deal after all. As for NOT signing a striker. I've been keen on signing another striker for the squad since January - even before Barnard was injured and Connolly still was. This looks to be clearer. Strikers are notoriously volatile in their scoring, and you need real alternative back-up here. Beattie didn't score for the first NINE games in 2002 but ended the season as leading ENGLISH born scorer with 23 Prem goals Billy Sharp didn't want to move south, although his club were willing to sell. Jay Rod was out-priced by Burnley who wanted a bigger cut of £12 mill. from the AOC deal. Having sold Fox, Burnley thought to boost Jay Rods fee but (rightfully IMHO) Cortese said NO to a blank cheque deal. Maynard ... was never subject to a bid from SFC...according to one bristol source .. and now we are down to the also-rans. Waghorn looks a good prospect but didn't need to move house and can stay in the Midlands, and play under a former manager he likes. By rights, we should have signed Sharp,(before we had the AOC money) and the rest is speculation from the media, disgruntled agents and greedy club chairman. I'm glad we didn't sign Beckford, and Leeds fans will be glad for that too. Of the other players mentioned.. only Waghorn has moved and Svennis had no place for him in the Leicester set-up anyway and was glad he went. I am certain we will get a striker SOON ..a "free" , or OOC to fill the bill and it will give us more options up front. Edited 6 September, 2011 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Exactly the point I was making mate, it is hardly league 1 standard. If I were to name an NPC first 11 then Fonte would be in it for a start. Seaborne started life well, harding, as much as I agree is our weakest link ATM is still as passionate as with his occasional positional problems aside is still not putting many feet wrong. I would rather we made the right choice then jumped in, I mean, what if they decided Gorkkss didn't have long left in his playing career ? What if Jemal was only interested in the cash and demanded clauses ? We don't know basically. As far as the transfer window was concerned I am happy. Lets give Hoovliet a chance shall we. Me too. I like our team spirit and togetherness the players show. These days we actually look like a team rather than a collection of individuals. I'd rather keep that going with occassional good signings (ie the right player when they're avaliable for the right price) than mass panic signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 During the summer break I'd checked out a lot of sites (not all English) and have my own take on these points, although they are only conclusions on my part based on available info. Jemal was the real target from the start Goryss was never a target. Obviously Fontaine wasn't on the original shopping list either. It must have taken some looking to find Hooiveld, but there is a lot of knowledge around in the football world and so he must have some good track record - but in the "wrong " teams. Let's hope that he's agood deal after all. To these points; I'd be very surprised indeed (especially given Adkins said so himself) if most of these players had not been identified by the club at the start of the summer. Adkins words on the OS were "we highlighted a number of players in this position [CB] at the start of the summer". So it's fair to assume that there was a list, although you're right to say there was an order of priority. The only one I'd say that was not the case was Hooiveld, who I think was more of a panic search when all other options had fallen through. But I thoroughly think we dropped the ball with not signing a top quality centre-back, time will tell with Hooiveld but my suspicions are that he will be no better than the backup we already have. As for NOT signing a striker. I've been keen on signing another striker for the squad since January - even before Barnard was injured and Connolly still was. This looks to be clearer. Strikers are notoriously volatile in their scoring. Beattie didn't score for the first NINE games in 2002 but ended the season as leading ENGLISH born scorer with 23 Prem goals Billy Sharp didn't want to move south, although his club were willing to sell. Jay Rod was out-priced by Burnley who wanted abigger cut of £12 mill. from the AOC deal. Having sold Fox, Burnley thought to boost Jay Rods fee and (rightfully IMHO) Cortese said NO. The Bristol guy ... was never subject to a bid from SFC...and now we are down to the also-rans. Waghorn looks a good prospect but didn't need to move house and can stay in the Midlands, and play under a former manager he likes. By rights, we should have signed Sharp,(before we had the AOC money) and the rest is speculation from the media, disgruntled agents and greedy club chairman. I'm glad we didn't sign Beckford, and Leeds fans will be glad for that too. Of all the other players mentioned.. only Waghorn has moved and Svennis had no place for him in the Leicester set-up. I'm much more forgiving of the failure to bring in a striker. We know we had a bid accepted for Billy Sharp in excess of £3M but the player clearly wanted too much money. We also put in substantial bids for Rodriguez that the club didn't accept. Paying £6M plus for that type of striker, when you could have paid the same amount in summer 2010 for Javierr Hernandez, just didn't make financial sense. And when Barnard returns it's not as if we're massively short of attcking options, with Lambert, Connolly and Barnard backed up by Lallana, de Ridder, Guly and even Forte. Fairly healthy options, I'd say, and if a more cost-effective option becomes available in the New Year window then all the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 September, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September, 2011 (edited) Nice analysis Kraken. Adkins also said (in reaction to fans eagerness for new faces) that many signings .. don't take place until nearer the end of July, and not the day after the "window " opens. I'm pretty sure that they were quite confident that Jemal would sign ...after the pre-season in Switzerland..no big media hype but the deal just went wrong. I don't think that the average player would be so aware of all these details and maybe the deal was sabotaged by the agent. (?) That created the panic hunt for a CB at a time when there aren't a lot of players of that type available outside the Prem. Would YOU have paid £5 mill.for Mills? I think the non-signing of Billy Sharp was more of a priority (before the Jemal deal fell through), and in the end ...with the £12mill. already in the bank ...Cortese had his work cut out phoning greedy chairmen who doubled a player's fee whenever he contacted a club to enquire. (nevertheless top marks to Cortese for sticking to his guns and not being blackmailed into a panic buy.) Edited 6 September, 2011 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Nice analysis Kraken. Adkins also said (in reaction to fans eagerness for new faces) that many signings .. don't take place until nearer the end of July, and not the day after the "window " opens. I'm pretty sure that they were quite confident that Jemal would sign ...after the pre-season in Switzerland..no big media hype but the deal just went wrong. I don't think that the average player would be so aware of all these details and maybe the deal was sabotaged by the agent. (?) That created the panic hunt for a CB at a time when there aren't a lot of players of that type available outside the Prem. Would YOU have paid £5 mill.for Mills? I think the non-signing of Billy Sharp was more of a priority (before the Jemal deal fell through), and in the end ...with the £12mill. already in the bank ...Cortese had his work cut out phoning greedy chairmen who doubled a player's fee whenever he contacted a club to enquire. (nevertheless top marks to Cortese for sticking to his guns and not being blackmailed into a panic buy.) I had a similar chat with LGTC on another thread, about which positions Adkins had highlighted for improvement at the start of the summer. I think we both agreed that CB, CM and CF were all major targets from the outset. We got Cork in early, we bid for Sharp early, and the Jemal deal started early. After Sharp we chased Rodriguez for a while then seemed to lose our way and wouldn't pay over the odds, and with £12M in our pocket it's easy to see we were being rinsed on prices. So yeah, I wouldn't blame the chairman at all for not shelling out over the odds there. For CB, I think it's much less forgivable what happened. Jemal fell through, whether for him or the club being disagreeable. I'm sure we have always had an interest in Gorkss, only because I heard we enquired about him even before the Jemal interest came to light. Not signing Gorkss was a big mistake IMO, he eventually went to Reading for less than £1M. We showed we were willing to spend 4 or 5 times that amount on a forward, yet I consider CB to be the position where we need to strengthen the most, and I think he would have complemented Fonte fantastically. To let him slip through our fingers, go through the Fontaine episode and then end up with a last minute loanee does not reflect well, and with Seaborne and Jaidi now out I hope we don't suffer as a direct result of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerceSaint28 Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Guys we can keep saying well done to Cortese for not paying over the odds etc but the simple fact is that we didn't get the 2 players ie centre back and striker who could of made a difference to our season... You can dress it up however you want but that is bones of it. If we get to January 15 points adrift of the top 2, would it have been worth it? I am slightly worried by how active West Ham have been and whilst we no doubt have the better team spirit, team bond etc it is only when key players go down that we see the true strength of the squad. What if one of the golden trio go down ie Fonte, Lallana or Lambert??? Who comes in to replace them? I would say that that Fonte would be the guy who would be missed the most as our defence would be undone without him. I went to the Leicester game and the local radio were saying what a good side we were after the game but we had a poor defence and i think that will be our problem. Leicester and Ipswich we have conceeded 5 goals away from home and that was with Fonte carrying Seabourne, what if he is injured? We should of spent the cash on a quality centre half....they are out there and not neccesarily in this country but why oh why we did not address this is beyond me. And please dont say this Hooiveld fella because that smacked of desperation and he was obviously a real last stab in the dark...poor by Saints and confusing... Im sorry im all for giving someone a chance but the guy's pedigree is definitely up for debate and i do not understand the thinking...really angered me frankly given our great start and financial position. Does anyone know the rules on loans? i feel we MUST sign a centre half on loan when we get a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Guys we can keep saying well done to Cortese for not paying over the odds etc but the simple fact is that we didn't get the 2 players ie centre back and striker who could of made a difference to our season... You can dress it up however you want but that is bones of it. If we get to January 15 points adrift of the top 2, would it have been worth it? I am slightly worried by how active West Ham have been and whilst we no doubt have the better team spirit, team bond etc it is only when key players go down that we see the true strength of the squad. What if one of the golden trio go down ie Fonte, Lallana or Lambert??? Who comes in to replace them?I would say that that Fonte would be the guy who would be missed the most as our defence would be undone without him. I went to the Leicester game and the local radio were saying what a good side we were after the game but we had a poor defence and i think that will be our problem. Leicester and Ipswich we have conceeded 5 goals away from home and that was with Fonte carrying Seabourne, what if he is injured? We should of spent the cash on a quality centre half....they are out there and not neccesarily in this country but why oh why we did not address this is beyond me. And please dont say this Hooiveld fella because that smacked of desperation and he was obviously a real last stab in the dark...poor by Saints and confusing... Im sorry im all for giving someone a chance but the guy's pedigree is definitely up for debate and i do not understand the thinking...really angered me frankly given our great start and financial position. Does anyone know the rules on loans? i feel we MUST sign a centre half on loan when we get a chance We had the same conversations last season. Where do you draw the line in getting in cover players? How much do you pay for them? This year with the five sub rule a bigger team means more players not even getting on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under Weststand Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 I think Martin is the long term aim for that position, & would be happy for him to take the place against Forrest. on the other hand its also a good game to give Hooiveld his first start. If he has settled in & is fit enough then I think he will start with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 6 September, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Guys we can keep saying well done to Cortese for not paying over the odds etc Leicester and Ipswich we have conceeded 5 goals away from home and that was with Fonte carrying Seabourne, what if he is injured? you've just made a very good case (if that's it) ..for not selecting Seaborne even when fit. If you want to try another CB - we've got Hooiveld already..or are you discounting him before he's even made a start? We can loan upto THREE ...or is it SIX players I think?..so why not loan in 3 CB's and cover all eventualities, it just happens that there weren't many to choose from in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 We had the same conversations last season. Where do you draw the line in getting in cover players? How much do you pay for them? This year with the five sub rule a bigger team means more players not even getting on the bench. I think, before Hooiveld, that we already had plenty of cover players in that position. He just seems another addition to that, i.e. not significantly better than we already have. I might of course be wrong and he could be the answer, time will tell. But until then I will remain convinced we missed a massive trick by failing to sign Gorkss, who would have improved us an provide a great partner for Fonte, whilst also of course adding to the strength in depth in case of injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Allegedly we had been tracking Hooiveld for a while but Celtic were asking £2m fee for him which we wouldn't pay. The loan is a compromise allowing us to try before we buy. It is possible that he was first choice after Jemal but we walked away because of the price but went back at the last minute for the loan. He has a mixed but none the less reasonable record and at our level could be a good recruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 He just seems another addition to that, i.e. not significantly better than we already have. Just using the above as an example but from what I can ascertain there is just one poster on this thread who claims to have seen him play amongst the 45+ posts of 'opinion' as to whether he's any good or not. As you say time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerceSaint28 Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Fully agree Kraken...what is the situation on loans?? are we able to loan players with view to permanent as that might be the answer if Hooiveld isn't up to the job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Just using the above as an example but from what I can ascertain there is just one poster on this thread who claims to have seen him play amongst the 45+ posts of 'opinion' as to whether he's any good or not. As you say time will tell. I've resisted from writing him off, as a few others have done. However, it's completely natural to research a player, search message boards, ask fans of his previous clubs what he's like. Take Jose Fonte, for instance. I have a few mates who support Palace, all were devastated he left them, thought he could do a job in the Premier League let alone League 1, and confirmed he was a brilliant signing, one of Palace's best players over a number of seasons. Palace message boards were full of exactly the same. The case of Hooiveld is markedly different. You will struggle to find a good word to say about him on Celtic message boards. I've asked two of my close friends who live in Glasgow (one of whom is a Celtic season ticket holder) about him, and they think that he was absolutely terrible for Celtic ("pure pish" was the actual terminology) and said that they were amazed we would be in for him. They further elaborated that Scottish football is currently so far in decline that Saints would beat Celtic if they came up against each other, and Hooiveld is nowhere near good enough for their first team. Now, of course, none of that actually means anything until we actually see him play, and I thoroughly hope he's much better than we're expecting. Even if he's not I hope he gets a fair crack of the whip and isn't subject to Puncheon-type treatment. But, as much as gut-instinct can be wrong as it can be right, I can't help thinking this won't be the successful signing we're hoping it to be. and i'd be thoroughly delighted to be proved wrong on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 6 September, 2011 Share Posted 6 September, 2011 Fully agree Kraken...what is the situation on loans?? are we able to loan players with view to permanent as that might be the answer if Hooiveld isn't up to the job Pretty sure the window opens up in the next few days. A loan can last only up to 93 days (although can be done in increments i.e.. Chaplow where we extended it when the original 30 day agreement expired). We could only sign in the Jan window, so any loan from the next few days would still have a gap over Xmas before the player could be transferred. Season long loan are not allowed to be conducted outside of the main transfer window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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