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Adkins great manager and man manager we need to improve first team not squad


Mouldy Coat

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With a great end to last season and an unbeaten start to this campaign, no one is doubting the qualities of NA. Tactically he makes bold decisions and seems to get the best out of the players, we can see the togetherness is there. However, with the exception of Jack Cork, which of these players his signings have added significantly improved quality to the first team?

 

Fox (not really featured so jury is out)..Burnley fans seemed to think poor defensively, very good going forward

N'guessen

Forte

Stephens

De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

Chappers...squad player

 

My point is so far we have only really seen Cork add to the first 11 quality

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Wales have been pretty **** on the international scene for the past 20 years or so, but I'd still happily have had Giggs in any Saints side.

 

I'd bite your hand off for Giggs at his age now. Giggs was an international and probably would have walked into any side at the peak of his career. However, I agree, I hope de Ridder comes good

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Last season Adkins added much needed depth to the squad.... they've all played their part. N'guessen set up the winner againt Exeter away, Forte won us the game against MK Dons and Chaplow scored a few important goals. Without their contributions, who knows... we may have ended up in the playoffs.

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With a great end to last season and an unbeaten start to this campaign, no one is doubting the qualities of NA. Tactically he makes bold decisions and seems to get the best out of the players, we can see the togetherness is there. However, with the exception of Jack Cork, which of these players his signings have added significantly improved quality to the first team?

 

Fox (not really featured so jury is out)..Burnley fans seemed to think poor defensively, very good going forward

N'guessen

Forte

Stephens

De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

Chappers...squad player

 

My point is so far we have only really seen Cork add to the first 11 quality

 

We wouldn't want Vermaelen as a centre back then, on that basis, would we, eh ??

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Last season, Adkins added what we needed. Strength in depth. Those players played their part in promotion.

 

This season, he's improved the first team with Cork (De Ridder and Fox may also become first team players) and continues to try and do so. So, er... sorry. I'm failing to see the problem here.

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With a great end to last season and an unbeaten start to this campaign, no one is doubting the qualities of NA. Tactically he makes bold decisions and seems to get the best out of the players, we can see the togetherness is there. However, with the exception of Jack Cork, which of these players his signings have added significantly improved quality to the first team?

 

Fox (not really featured so jury is out)..Burnley fans seemed to think poor defensively, very good going forward

N'guessen

Forte

Stephens

De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

Chappers...squad player

 

My point is so far we have only really seen Cork add to the first 11 quality

 

Quite why not is a bit of a mystery as they have many very, very good players currently.

 

Vermaelen as mentioned but better than that is Kompany, Fellaini, Dembele, Lukaku, Van Buyten, Hazard - Even perhaps Boyata and the Ajax centre back whose name escapes me...

And for many years during the 70's and 80's they were a world top 10 side.

 

A pedigree not to be sniffed at, and De Ridder has given plenty of indication that he is a damn good player who will get better still.

 

Also Chaplow looked very good when he came on against Leeds and lets not forget that Stephens and N'Guessan were sent back to their original clubs after NA had the opportunity to look and sign if he wanted - He did'nt.

 

Lets not get too concerned right now.

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With a great end to last season and an unbeaten start to this campaign, no one is doubting the qualities of NA. Tactically he makes bold decisions and seems to get the best out of the players, we can see the togetherness is there. However, with the exception of Jack Cork, which of these players his signings have added significantly improved quality to the first team?

 

Fox (not really featured so jury is out)..Burnley fans seemed to think poor defensively, very good going forward

N'guessen

Forte

Stephens

De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

Chappers...squad player

 

My point is so far we have only really seen Cork add to the first 11 quality

We are top of the league you tart!!!
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FFS, I am 100% sure that come a few months time Cork, Fox and de Ridder will be first choice players.

 

Did you expect Fox to come straight in for Harding who has done nothing wrong this season? After 1.5 training sessions with the squad? Likewise it is clear De Ridder has great qualities but is being eased in, as one would expect for many foreign players.

 

It is pointless referring to the likes of N'Guessan (so you would have dropped Lallana or Aoc?) or Stephens because we only needed cover!

 

Clearly we want a CB and a striker and I don't think the Bristol City captain would have come here to sit on the bench, do you? Likewise whatever striker we get.

 

When you win 4/4 you aren't going to chop and change each time a new player signs, give it time and they will force their way into the team.

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Forte

Stephens

De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

 

Pahars, anybody? Latvia were crap on the International stage, so why would we be interested in him? :rolleyes:

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As for the OP:

6 players - two has left the club again. (or are you refering to Jack Stephens?). The jury is still out on two, but both have made promising starts. Then there is Jack Cork, which leaves your initial argument with one player - Forte. I think you're too quick of the mark with this argument.

 

And I do believe you're wrong on parts of your reasoning. A solid squad with loads of quality wins the leauge, not just the starting XI. We need competition on at every position to keep players on their toes. It also provides cover in case of injury with no significant change in tactics.

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At the moment we have a winning team, one that has learned to work with each other, where they know each others strengths and weakness and what makes each other tick.

 

Replace that with 11 strangers who know nothing about each other?????????

 

No, Nigel knows that he has a winning team, stength in depth, cover where we need it, and is looking to strengthen areas, not the spend millions on players and you're bound to win methodology. After all, we spent seven million doing this and we did very well. Oh, hang on, we didn't.

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And another thing. I don't believe he goes out and looks at a player and says 'He's great at this leve. Just buy him.' I believe he comes up with some targets, a fair view are gievn to him, then they look at the ancillaries, 'Is he a mercenary just after the money, will he use us as a spring board to get into another team, is he settled, has he got a temper on him, is he level headed, can he work alongside xx,yy and zz, will he compliment them..........' . Once they have a full view of if he will compliment the team rather than disrupt it, then the push is on. Some will fit the mold, but wont like the way things are, some will want things we are ready to give them, so are advised by agents who like to give them detrimental advice because they want to screw us. We or they walk away, no hard feelings, like a couple who had been on a few dates, they fancied each other in the beginning, but she don't like his friends, or he don't like her family, She don't like his sense of humour, he can't stand her politics, She don't like that he wants to go to 'bum island', he don't like that she wont let him go to 'bum island'. So they part on fair terms, and so they look elsewhere.

 

Don't you find it strange that a team like us and Brighton, with almost the same team from a lower league, are doing well, and yet West Ham and Liecester are a little behind, at the start of the season. Perhaps it's just beginners luck. Or their total dominance will start Saturday.

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I am worried about some Saints fans, they cannot see beyond the AP method of building a "team".

 

What I mean by that is they can only see INDIVIDUALS and in their eyes football is only about having BETTER INDIVIDUALS than the opposition in certain positions, and if 4-4-2 is not working they replace 1 player with another INDIVIDUAL and hope he can win his personal one-on-one battle.

 

Things have changed with Nigel. It is no longer about individuals, it is about TEAMWORK and about playing PASS & MOVE football.

With "Pass & Move" it requires players to put in extra effort "for the team" with players making lots more runs off the ball. Of course this cannot be kept up for 45mins in each half that is why Saints often play really well of only 15-20 mins in each half.

 

As far as improving Saints, certain individuals did not want to put in that extra effort that Nigel wants e.g. Jason (lots of skill but not a team player). Nigel would rather have a player who is not going to play for himself as an individual but add something to "unit" (i.e. Jonathan coming on against MK Dons etc).

 

IMO the results at the end of last season 9 wins out of the last 10, and 4 out of 4 this season shows that TEAMWORK is better than a group of big named individuals.

 

As I said I am worried about some Saints fans because some of the rubbish written on here recently about not wanting player X because he played for a middle of the table side and player Y being the better INDIVIDUAL because he played for a top of the table side just shows to me that they cannot think outside the AP method of team building.

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I am worried about some Saints fans, they cannot see beyond the AP method of building a "team".

 

What I mean by that is they can only see INDIVIDUALS and in their eyes football is only about having BETTER INDIVIDUALS than the opposition in certain positions, and if 4-4-2 is not working they replace 1 player with another INDIVIDUAL and hope he can win his personal one-on-one battle.

 

Things have changed with Nigel. It is no longer about individuals, it is about TEAMWORK and about playing PASS & MOVE football.

With "Pass & Move" it requires players to put in extra effort "for the team" with players making lots more runs off the ball. Of course this cannot be kept up for 45mins in each half that is why Saints often play really well of only 15-20 mins in each half.

 

As far as improving Saints, certain individuals did not want to put in that extra effort that Nigel wants e.g. Jason (lots of skill but not a team player). Nigel would rather have a player who is not going to play for himself as an individual but add something to "unit" (i.e. Jonathan coming on against MK Dons etc).

 

IMO the results at the end of last season 9 wins out of the last 10, and 4 out of 4 this season shows that TEAMWORK is better than a group of big named individuals.

 

As I said I am worried about some Saints fans because some of the rubbish written on here recently about not wanting player X because he played for a middle of the table side and player Y being the better INDIVIDUAL because he played for a top of the table side just shows to me that they cannot think outside the AP method of team building.

Absolutely spot on.

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I agree with the original thread (with the exception of the comments about Belgium). I remain convinced that Saints can gain promotion this year and to do that investment in players better than we have already is imperative. I've been impressed by De Ridder, but he needs a spell of games to demonstrate what he can really do (same with Fox).

 

The arguments that we don't need to worry as we are top of the league are irelevant at the moment, it will only count if we are there at the end of the season and to to achieve that I believe that we need a strong centre half to partner and a forward with pace to offer something that we don't currently have. However, I'd like to believe that the people brought in would be automatic (or close to automatic choices) on the basis that they are higher quality than what we already have which means spending a significant amount of money. For me Saints have a good squad already, the aim now is to increase quality not quantity; At the moment, I'd rather have one top player, than three lesser ones.

 

Let's see how Nige addresses this; but after the likes of Stephens and Forte and with Fontaine appearing to be of a similar type, I have some minor concerns that we are not looking at the right type of person and/or spending our cash on players in positions where we are already well covered (e.g. left back).

 

Still Nige is doing a great job at the moment, so lets see what he and NC come up with by next week.

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Several responses (Winmill Arm 2; Danish Saint, etc) are rightly saying that the current first team is doing extremely well, better than any of us, I guess, expected but, and there has to be a but, Adkins is still looking for signings, as shown by the unsuccessful bids we all know have been made. So it follows that either Adkins does think the team can be improved or that he needs more squad players to provide cover. So if Adkins thinks he needs signings, apparantly at CB and striker, why would anyone who believes in the manager be critical of someone posting on here and saying the same?

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Last season Adkins added much needed depth to the squad.... they've all played their part. N'guessen set up the winner againt Exeter away, Forte won us the game against MK Dons and Chaplow scored a few important goals. Without their contributions, who knows... we may have ended up in the playoffs.

 

Quite. Adkins wasn't in the market for new first team players in the January window - we merely bolstered in areas that eventually proved to have required backup. When you have such initial quality in the starting 11, why would you go out and break the bank to bring in 'better'? It also comes back to the point about the winning mentality of our team and - finally - some consistency. Our players know each other's game and thrive on that. Look at the chemistry and slick buildup involved in most of our goals so far this season!

 

Arguably more important is the number of current players that have been tied into long contracts this summer. Yes, we could probably do with a bolster of quality in a couple of key areas, but the club's shown that it won't be held to ransom. We also need to bring in players that fit into the 'Southampton way' - Cork is a prime example of early fulfilment of that. It's my belief that the current squad will see us through to January at least. That's the time to reassess.

 

So I don't think the question is why Nigel hasn't been able to attract 'quality', but whether it needed adding in the first place.

Edited by ant
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and lets not forget that Stephens and N'Guessan were sent back to their original clubs after NA had the opportunity to look and sign if he wanted - He did'nt.

 

My reasoning why Guly is an Adkins signing. Granted we already had him on loan, but if Adkins didn't want him, he'd have let him go.

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De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

 

Bloody good job we only signed George Weah's "cousin" then, not the Liberian himself. Liberia are not renowned for being successful on the international scene. Also, Gareth Bale was clearly cack, and we might not want to stuff the side full of English players either. :rolleyes:

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I posted this a while ago when Adkins was first muted as a manager for us. His record of bringing in players has been good both in terms of quality but also number. It seems he clearly identifies a position and the potential targets with some thought as the average number of players he signs is around six a season, whereas Pardew is double that on 12.

 

I can see this strategy fitting into the way Saints deal with transfers especially as the academy will fill some of those transfer in places to the squad.

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Bit of a weird thread, but criticism of Belgium's team is laughable. Lukaku, Hazard, Vermaelen amongst the best players in Europe.

 

Lat time I looked at the qualifying tables, Belgium looked as capable of qualifying for Ero's 2012 as England.

 

Every now and then a 'smaller' footballing country produce a generation of good players, look at Denmark in the early 1990's as prime example. Belgium seem to be in that position now.

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I posted this a while ago when Adkins was first mooted as a manager for us. His record of bringing in players has been good both in terms of quality but also number. It seems he clearly identifies a position and the potential targets with some thought as the average number of players he signs is around six a season, whereas Pardew is double that on 12.

 

I can see this strategy fitting into the way Saints deal with transfers especially as the academy will fill some of those transfer in places to the squad.

 

Not sure I follow. How many bad signings did Pardew make for Saints compared to good ones ? One of the reasons Adkins hasn't signed many players is because the squad Pardew signed was basically good enough to do the job required already.

 

Also, this reliance on the academy to fill out the squad - which academy products from the past 2 seasons have taken up places in the team for any amount of time ? There's Oxlade-Chamberlain, yes, then who else ? Lallana's in his fourth season in the first team - are we happy with say, one academy player coming through into the team every two years ?

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Not sure I follow. How many bad signings did Pardew make for Saints compared to good ones ? One of the reasons Adkins hasn't signed many players is because the squad Pardew signed was basically good enough to do the job required already.

 

Also, this reliance on the academy to fill out the squad - which academy products from the past 2 seasons have taken up places in the team for any amount of time ? There's Oxlade-Chamberlain, yes, then who else ? Lallana's in his fourth season in the first team - are we happy with say, one academy player coming through into the team every two years ?

 

The averages were throughout their careers not just at Saints.

 

Also remember that there must be pressure on Les Reed to produce players that will be capable of moving up the ranks to join the first team squad. Those players that know the 'Southampton way' and training methods. I've no idea on what the target will be to have academy players join the first team squad but the establishment of the development side at Saints is only a couple of years in the five year plan.

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A strategy that worked for Pardew...

 

He must have been " Cortese's signing ". He came from some obscure Italian side and got a 2-3 year contract, I think.

Surely no-one in England would have known much about him beforehand?

As it was... I think we got a good deal, and maybe a bit more talent than a lot of people think just now.

 

I think NA is pleased with him (especially for the 3 pts. on saturday) but that he (Guly) can run himself into the ground for 60 mins. and then NA can put on another " fresh " midfield sub.

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The averages were throughout their careers not just at Saints.

 

Also remember that there must be pressure on Les Reed to produce players that will be capable of moving up the ranks to join the first team squad. Those players that know the 'Southampton way' and training methods. I've no idea on what the target will be to have academy players join the first team squad but the establishment of the development side at Saints is only a couple of years in the five year plan.

 

Surely just reflects the availability of money at the clubs they were previously at then?

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With a great end to last season and an unbeaten start to this campaign, no one is doubting the qualities of NA. Tactically he makes bold decisions and seems to get the best out of the players, we can see the togetherness is there. However, with the exception of Jack Cork, which of these players his signings have added significantly improved quality to the first team?

Fox (not really featured so jury is out)..Burnley fans seemed to think poor defensively, very good going forward

N'guessen

Forte

Stephens

De Ridder...jury is out, looks like he has something different to his game and is hungry, but Belgium not renowned for being successful on the international scene. From what we have been restricted to so far, difficult to draw conclusions

Chappers...squad player

My point is so far we have only really seen Cork add to the first 11 quality

.

 

Some players are capable of making a good contribution on a shorter term basis, and not everyone is capable of a whole seasons consistancy, but it doesn't make them bad players. It's good to have them.

We can still only play 11 men at the same time, but having good " cover " on the bench is necessary and I expect to see Adkins using 3 subs. almost every week in order than not everyone has to play 100 minutes every game. Connolly good example.

The type of " dynamo " players like Telfer and Case weren't top class as such but could run and run match after match, and were picked for that reason, whereas TWO England managers (Venables and Hoddle) refused to select Matt Le Tissier because they said he was lazy and didn't train enough !!

 

By the end of the season, we will be able to make a good judgments on Fox, De Ridder and anyone else who " appears " in the meantime. but my guess is that if... by that time ...we are still in a promotion place , very few of the present " squad " will be seen as long-term Premiership players, and if they can't impress in CCC, they'll have a very short shelf-life in the Prem. and " bigger name, international players " will be signed very quickly.

Edited by david in sweden
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Surely just reflects the availability of money at the clubs they were previously at then?

 

Personally I would go with Adkins wanting to build a team, knows where to strengthen and seems to have a plan rather than wanting to pick up a whole new team each season. Just because there maybe more money available doesn't correlate to spending on more players, besides the averages included frees and loans for both managers.

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You forgot this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Bignall

Seems we have all forgotten him really. But he was an Adkins signing here never the less.

 

Also just to add in our last game only one of the team was an Adkins signing. He is getting the best out of the squad he inherited. That was the job he was brought into do, not to re-build. Sure some of the deals look a bit crazy when compared to previous deals i.e £1.8m for Fox when we got Fonte and Rickie for that pretty much. But sure they will come good in the end!

Edited by St Marco
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Very constructive feedback, glad you like the debate and contribute wise words...f....u...c....k....I....n....g mong

 

Wise words like the last two in your post, you mean?

 

Oh and just in case you didn't notice, I said my piece about 3 or 4 posts above the one you quoted.

 

Good night :)

Edited by niceandfriendly
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