Stewards Enquiry!

[Mowgli]

I honestly believe that Gorkss was never a serious target. QPR are letting him go because they do not think he can hack it in the EPL. Combine that with his age and it just does not meet the criteria Saints have been using to sign player - under 25 and with ability / experience of playing at EPL level. He may just have been considered as a better option to Puncheon in a swap deal.

[Wurzel]

So pichards, what do you know -.

 

LoL If I had a pound for every ITK-but-can't-reveal-any-details-hint that subsequently comes to nothing that I've heard from Pilchards over the last 5 years I'd do the decent thing and buy the Ginger Tosser some hair dye;)

[dubai_phil]

Pilchards - you've been climbing trees again haven't you you daft old bugger.

 

Meanwhile. My thoughts.

 

Korkss.

 

Not surprised we did not buy him. We have a PLAN to get to the PL inside 2 years. Gorkss has done that BUT hasn't been taken into the PL. So if we DO go up we would be a PL team needing a new CB - that'll cost us 5-10mil.

Add to that we seem to have a template of buying players in the early 20's who look to have what it takes to make that step up in class. Korkss was late 20's.

 

Sure HCDAJFU but two out of 3 bits in the template didn't fit so not surprised we went shopping elsewhere. HOWEVER as a "freebie" in exchange for Puncheon - the deal made some sense.

 

Fontaine - seemed to fit the template Left Side pacey ball playing CB. Recovering from Ankle Surgery. As we have seen with previous Sick Notes, Ankles can be VERY difficult to recover from. Agent and player will no doubt have said yes it is all fine. Brizzle would no doubt have been doing the same. We go after him and find out he is not up to it.

 

Then we see leaks saying maybe it wasn't Ankle. Maybe he was mentally not someone to fit the team dynamic. Maybe the players didn't like him? Who knows.

 

Then to see all the innernet warriors - lol. They're all assuming that because they have FM Manager they know all the other options out there BUT at the same time believe that the club's scouting team are sitting around playing cards & drinking coffee at Staplewood instead of having dossiers on hundreds of players to investigate.

 

There are MONTHS to go to find the RIGHT player to fit the template, either as a permanent signing now or as a loan with an option to buy in January.

 

FFS we are top of the fecking League, a new signing won't be playing Saturday anyway they HAVE to fit into the style of play and they would need more than ONE training session to be able to do that. Then there is an International Break, we have two weeks before they could be in the side.

 

Chill. Just because Innernet Warriors are the centre of their own universe doesn't mean everyone else in the world is in-competent. Stop worrying, the Management have proven themselves to be pretty fecking competent, THEY KNOW they need one. Just maybe show a little hope that they aren't like you sittinga round drinking coffee & typing on here and are actually out there doing their job?

[Giordano]

If i understand whats been going on lately with the "search for a CB" we have:

 

Invited a tunisian international - Amwar Jemal (sp?) over to stay from Young Boys Switzerland - apparently he came, stayed in soton for (3,4 5 days?) apparently toured the facilities ( did he train with squad) gave positive signals via FB but apparently left in a huff over fees to a former club.

 

Invited a Latvian international - Gorkks (sp?) over to stay - apparently he came, stayed in soton for a couple of days, apparently found an apartment, apparently toured the facilities ( did he train with the squad?) apparently indicated he was positive about joining ( after initially not being and saying was going to fight for his place at qpr) and apparently was then told to go away as we had found another option who was:

 

Fontaine from Bristol City - who apparently agreed terms, his club agreed a fee but who it is reported to have been mutually decided it was not happening after all because of a disputed ankle problem or something else which the agent says he is not at liberty to discuss but its all amicable.

 

For me it looks like Fontaine was preferred to Gorkks but his ankle might not heal for a while so its gone pectoralis group muscles up for both of them and we are not going to deal with problematic Amwar again either.

 

What do these apparent set of circumstances indicate, apart from that we want a CB with a left foot that can kick rather than just to stand on?

 

It indicates quite odd thinking actually because Gorkks is/seems to be a younger Radhi, whereas Amwar seemed to be a cultured left foot footballing CB, Fontaine is probably somewhere in-between. None of them looked to be massively superior to what we have and nailed on automatic starters- perhaps Gorkks of any of them due to his league winning experience last year..

 

Is Nigel looking for Beauty, The Beast, or a hybrid for his number 5? I don't think anyone knows. We will get what we can at CB but there does not see to be an exact photofit of the requirement is what im sensing. It could be any kind of CB for all we know.

Edited 25 August, 2011 by Giordano
sp and poor construction as usual - too quick..

[Stattmeister]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9471db52-97bb-11e0-9c37-00144feab49a.html

 

Vaguely related, incredibly interesting read. I suspect NA is of the new breed of manager, and does his homework. If that's the case, then I'm more than happy to go along with his choices.

[Charlie Wayman]

To be fair to Pilchards, we really could do with a quality CB for a season-long push for a top 6 finish, IMO

 

We are and so are Arsenal, let's hope they don't come after Jose!

[Jack]

We are and so are Arsenal, let's hope they don't come after Jose!

 

Think wenger is more likely to go for a 16 year old for his 'unbeatable side for 6 season's time'. The bloke has completely lost the plot.

[Badger]

So pichards, what do you know - you quickly removed the post about hearing a bid for 2.5 million for a premioer league CB.

 

Reading the paper today,I see that Chris Baird is out of favour at Fulham. Could this be a possibility?

[derry]

Warnock was very critical about Cortese dithering over about three weeks as it took less than a day for Reading to sign him. As usual with Warnock it is a one sided comment, I have to ask haven't QPR been dithering for a lot longer over Puncheon and wouldn't Saints be looking to tie up both deals rather than separate negtiations. It will be interesting to see where Puncheon eventually ends up.

[um pahars]

So if we DO go up we would be a PL team needing a new CB - that'll cost us 5-10mil.

 

But then surely the logic there is that if we are going to buy a CB now then they would have to be able to play in the Premiership.

 

Therefore we have to spend the 5-10mil now and then face the uphill task of convincing a quality player to drop a division (or at least overlook offers from the top flight if we're picking them up from somewhere else).

 

If everyone of our players had to be able to hack it in the Premier League, then our transfer budget would have to be massive.

 

Given the sums involved in the Premier League it is logical to buy players to get you up and then accept some won't be able to hack it in the top flight and therefore buy extra (with all the millions coming in) when you get there.

[Joensuu]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9471db52-97bb-11e0-9c37-00144feab49a.html

 

Vaguely related, incredibly interesting read. I suspect NA is of the new breed of manager, and does his homework. If that's the case, then I'm more than happy to go along with his choices.

 

Very interesting read...

[The9]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9471db52-97bb-11e0-9c37-00144feab49a.html

 

Vaguely related, incredibly interesting read. I suspect NA is of the new breed of manager, and does his homework. If that's the case, then I'm more than happy to go along with his choices.

 

What a great article, nice to see Simon Kuper's not just about footballing rivalries (Football Against The Enemy) and unearthing unexpected trends in football (Soccernomics).

 

Soccernomics (aka Why England Lose) is a fantastic book, noting stuff like "Brazilian players are generally over-rated and over-priced" and that clubs tend to overvalue certain types of players compared to their actual influence on matches. The stats about goalkeepers being cheaper yet having longer careers, and the impact of their errors, etc. are revealing. Funnily enough it's exactly the kind of stuff that's highlighted by that boneheaded comment about De Ridder not being proven yet and somehow Belgium's lack of recent international success being relevant to that. A total red herring (or no-one would have signed George Weah, Ryan Giggs, Gareth Bale or any Spanish players before 2008 ) but via some warped prism, influencing someone's decision-making.

[dubai_phil]

But then surely the logic there is that if we are going to buy a CB now then they would have to be able to play in the Premiership.

 

Therefore we have to spend the 5-10mil now and then face the uphill task of convincing a quality player to drop a division (or at least overlook offers from the top flight if we're picking them up from somewhere else).

 

If everyone of our players had to be able to hack it in the Premier League, then our transfer budget would have to be massive.

 

Given the sums involved in the Premier League it is logical to buy players to get you up and then accept some won't be able to hack it in the top flight and therefore buy extra (with all the millions coming in) when you get there.

 

Not what I said, (or meant to say)

 

The template is younger players who will be able to play in the PL. OBVIOUSLY not THIS season. Cork is an example, 750k for a player who at this point appears to have all the attributes to be a PL regular.

 

Remember NC is 1) A businessman 2) Is convinced we will play in the PL next season or the one after. So would he want to "pre-spend" all of our year one money in a bid to stay up also considering those "New PL" players would be on 3 or 4 year contracts and we could go straight back down again?

 

Anyone can see that buying 6 or 7 players of PL quality to stay up in the 1st year would cost 40 or 50mil (with wages & Agents fees) so buy those now worth a punt that SHOULD make the step up.

 

It ain't rocket science, In fact it is exactly what our Academy does look for those who will be ready in 2 3 or 5 years (Jack Stephens is an example).

 

Would Harding be up to PL standard? Nope, many on here aren't convinced he's NpC, but Fox - yeah maybe. If he isn't we'd get our money back selling him back down to NpC.

 

Now this is a Template. I'm not saying it is the right way to go - we already saw what "Taking The eye off the Ball" did once before, (utter disaster)

 

I think it is risky, but we've bought 3 players so far who COULD make that step up, so empirical evidence indcates this, hence why Gorkss may not have fit the template.

[CanadaSaint]

Most of what Phil said.

 

IMO the people clamouring for big money signings that won't dramatically improve the team when we are already showing strong signs that we could be promoted this year are somewhat detached from reality.

 

We had an extremely wealthy owner but he tragically passed away. Even while he was alive a key word was "sustainable" - a combination of players bought and players developed within. Yes, the money would be found if we needed to bring someone in but we were never going to be a Man City or a Chelsea.

 

However, Markus died but by most accounts he left provision for us to achieve his/Cortese's vision - Premiership in five years. This in my view means that he probably set aside a FINITE sum, which means that if we spend it this year we can't spend it next year or when we reach the Premier League.

 

If that's the case I'm all for caution and prudence, especially while we're doing so well, because it will cost a lot more to establish ourselves in the Premier than it will cost to get out of the Championship.

 

Sure, there are some gambles attached to that but we're still in a very good position.

[Village Saint]

Well, I for one am with the OP.

 

Why have we f**ked up a good transfer, that would have plugged our one significant hole, for a player of unknown quality with a gammy ankle ?

 

Please show me the documentary evidence that so many of you appear to have about exactly what transfer business we have or have not done over centre-backs. You should beware of listening to the talk put about by agents trying to screw clubs over and journalists who have to write something despite also have no clear idea of what has gone on. As it happens I am very happy over how we have conducted our interest in a centre-back and am particularly pleased we have not signed either of the two players about which there has been most speculation. You should all raise your sights a little. As with Billy Sharpe we can do much better with the money we have available and if we cant get who we actually want we shouldn't spend the money.

 

BTW I agree with Dalek2003's prediction of 17th. It is exactly where I expect us to finish in 2011-2012 in The Premier Division. I assume that is what he meant.

[um pahars]

IMO the people clamouring for big money signings that won't dramatically improve the team when we are already showing strong signs that we could be promoted this year are somewhat detached from reality.

 

Judging by Adkins attempted forays in to the transfer market, you could be mistaken for thinking that he is keen to strengthen the team.

 

(Plus I haven't seen many clamouring for big money signings. Sure people have been suggesting we need to strengthen certain areas, which seems to put them on the bus with Adkins).

Edited 25 August, 2011 by um pahars

[um pahars]

Not what I said, (or meant to say)

 

The template is younger players who will be able to play in the PL. OBVIOUSLY not THIS season. Cork is an example, 750k for a player who at this point appears to have all the attributes to be a PL regular.

 

Cork was a cracking signing that meets that criteria, but Fox, De Ridder and Fontaine, I don't think so.

 

If you're saying Fox could be off-loaded once we have achieved promotion, then why not Gorkss (exactly the same way QPR have done)???

 

We're now in the position of potentially being a Yo-Yo team, so we will have to accept that many of our players might be good enough for promotion, but not necessarily suited to the top flight. Given the sums at stake, I don't see anything wrong in buying solely for promotion and then looking again a bit later.

[jimmysaint7]

A strange comment when you're on a message board commenting on it

 

Human nature to talk about it; nothing sinister in it.

 

Because I commented on the post means I'm bothered,strange logic.I very rarely post just read what tripe other people post. We ain't signed these players , so what let's just move on

[CanadaSaint]

Judging by Adkins attempted forays in to the transfer market, you could be mistaken for thinking that he is keen to strengthen the team.

 

(Plus I haven't seen many clamouring for big money signings. Sure people have been suggesting we need to strengthen certain areas, which seems to put them on the bus with Adkins).

 

I'd call Rodriguez and Maynard "big money signings" that a lot of posters would like to see, and so were Billy Sharp and Craig Mackail-Smith. I don't quickly buy into the notion that - even though they are good players - they will blend in with our style and improve our team, never mind contribute to the chemistry.

 

Besides, all these "attempted forays in to the transfer market" are really only alleged attempted forays, although it certainly seems that we are/were interested.

 

Yes, I'm sure he's "keen to strengthen the team" but I don't think he's desperate to do so.

 

The main point of my post, Um, was that I think we're working off a finite legacy from Markus rather than the "bottomless pit" that some were hoping for when he arrived.

 

That being the case I think we're right to be very careful with our money if we want to be in a position to survive and succeed in the Premiership.

Edited 25 August, 2011 by CanadaSaint
Forgot to include quote

[um pahars]

I really don't believe any of you have seen enough of Fox and De Ridder to speculate on how good they can be, let alone given Adkins time to improve them.

 

Fair enough, but my opinion would be that these are decent enough players for the Championship, but might well struggle in the Premiership (they of course might go and set it alight).

 

Fox is 25, and apart from 4 months with a soon to be relegated Burnley, has plyed his trade outside of the top flight. Nothing wrong with that and hoepfully he will play a key role in our promotion this season or next, but I wouldn't agree that he has been bought with a view to being our left back in the top flight.

[Stattmeister]

What a great article, nice to see Simon Kuper's not just about footballing rivalries (Football Against The Enemy) and unearthing unexpected trends in football (Soccernomics).

 

Soccernomics (aka Why England Lose) is a fantastic book, noting stuff like "Brazilian players are generally over-rated and over-priced" and that clubs tend to overvalue certain types of players compared to their actual influence on matches. The stats about goalkeepers being cheaper yet having longer careers, and the impact of their errors, etc. are revealing. Funnily enough it's exactly the kind of stuff that's highlighted by that boneheaded comment about De Ridder not being proven yet and somehow Belgium's lack of recent international success being relevant to that. A total red herring (or no-one would have signed George Weah, Ryan Giggs, Gareth Bale or any Spanish players before 2008 ) but via some warped prism, influencing someone's decision-making.

 

Thanks buddy - will look it up!

[S-Clarke]

No one really knows for sure though do they?

 

I haven't seen any concrete proof that we ''pulled'' out of the Gorkss deal to pursue Fontaine.

 

And Warnock has a right nerve saying that, QPR have been dithering for weeks over Puncheon as they couldn't afford what we wanted - now they have had their takeover all is fine!

[um pahars]

I'd call Rodriguez and Maynard "big money signings" that a lot of posters would like to see, and so were Billy Sharp and Craig Mackail-Smith. I don't quickly buy into the notion that - even though they are good players - they will blend in with our style and improve our team, never mind contribute to the chemistry.

 

Besides, all these "attempted forays in to the transfer market" are really only alleged attempted forays, although it certainly seems that we are/were interested.

 

Yes, I'm sure he's "keen to strengthen the team" but I don't think he's desperate to do so.

 

The main point of my post, Um, was that I think we're working off a finite legacy from Markus rather than the "bottomless pit" that some were hoping for when he arrived.

 

That being the case I think we're right to be very careful with our money if we want to be in a position to survive and succeed in the Premiership.

 

I think people have been fairly refrained in their "clamour" to sign big money players. I would certainly support a decent sum on a forward and would argue it is recycling a small portion of the Chamberlain fee. Other than that i would be happy on a Gorkss type pedigree of player (i.e. not a fortune, but someone who has been there and done it) to help strengthen the centre of defence.

[derry]

I'd call Rodriguez and Maynard "big money signings" that a lot of posters would like to see, and so were Billy Sharp and Craig Mackail-Smith. I don't quickly buy into the notion that - even though they are good players - they will blend in with our style and improve our team, never mind contribute to the chemistry.

 

Besides, all these "attempted forays in to the transfer market" are really only alleged attempted forays, although it certainly seems that we are/were interested.

 

Yes, I'm sure he's "keen to strengthen the team" but I don't think he's desperate to do so.

 

The main point of my post, Um, was that I think we're working off a finite legacy from Markus rather than the "bottomless pit" that some were hoping for when he arrived.

 

That being the case I think we're right to be very careful with our money if we want to be in a position to survive and succeed in the Premiership.

 

In my opinion Bill the most important thing about any signing is that they fit in and improve the collective teamwork. History is full of teams at all levels that bring in the best players from various sources but never manage to turn them into a team and in fact make good players worse because of it. I'm not in favour of spending shedloads of money and then seeing diamonds in somebody elses team brought in for next to nothing, ie Hoolahan, Long, Doyle, all from Ireland but there are many more from the lower leagues or young Premier second chances, McHail-Smith, Mills etc.

[CanadaSaint]

I think people have been fairly refrained in their "clamour" to sign big money players. I would certainly support a decent sum on a forward and would argue it is recycling a small portion of the Chamberlain fee. Other than that i would be happy on a Gorkss type pedigree of player (i.e. not a fortune, but someone who has been there and done it) to help strengthen the centre of defence.

 

Well, some people haven't been particularly restrained and seem keen to lament the absence of signings on a daily basis. I don't disagree with your list but again you're not reacting to the main points of my post - that our budget became a finite sum with Markus's passing, and that this forces a higher level of prudence on us.

 

In my opinion Bill the most important thing about any signing is that they fit in and improve the collective teamwork. History is full of teams at all levels that bring in the best players from various sources but never manage to turn them into a team and in fact make good players worse because of it. I'm not in favour of spending shedloads of money and then seeing diamonds in somebody elses team brought in for next to nothing, ie Hoolahan, Long, Doyle, all from Ireland but there are many more from the lower leagues or young Premier second chances, McHail-Smith, Mills etc.

 

And you know I completely share that opinion, Dave. In fact, I'll go further and suggest that at least one signing broke down at the very last stage when the deal was almost "done and dusted" but the player didn't impress Adkins and Cortese in some kind of interview situation. I have absolutely no evidence to support that - it's just a hunch.

 

As I said earlier, potential signings have some very high hurdles to cross with Adkins and Cortese - clearly capable of meeting a known need, decent value for money (transfer fee), reasonably in line with our salary structure (there are no secrets on this front - even less so with agents around), and certain not to disrupt team chemistry (playing style and dressing room).

[um pahars]

I don't disagree with your list but again you're not reacting to the main points of my post - that our budget became a finite sum with Markus's passing, and that this forces a higher level of prudence on us.

 

I'm totally au fait and in agreement with this. Absolutely accept that we do indeed have a finite pot and we have to be fairly prudent when spending it. Also accept that in their ignorance other clubs probably think we're being "massively" bankrolled, plus have a wedge from Oxo and therefore demand more (probably as do some players!!!).

 

Certainly not asking us to spend our way out of this division, as along with accepting we haven't got a bottomless pit, I also think team spirit and cohesion is something money can't buy.

[CanadaSaint]

We're really on the same page here, Um. In fact I think we'd have what we need by now if it weren't for the fact that:

 

in their ignorance other clubs probably think we're being "massively" bankrolled, plus have a wedge from Oxo and therefore demand more (probably as do some players!!!).

 

and if it weren't for the fact that Leicester are bidding prices up on many of our targets. I'm starting to wonder whether their goal is to get the players in question or to stop us getting them.

 

Still, despite the disappointment of falling short on some transfers I feel almost elated that we're competitive and being careful and fiscally responsible at the same time.

[Frank's cousin]

Quote by many 'the transfer situation is a mess'

 

FFS get a grip and stop being so naive - Many transfers that are rumoured never happen, sometimes players fail medicals, sometimes tehy want too much and other times they just dont fit.... as to Fox and De Ridder, they have just joined and although its amazing to see how quickly Cork has adapted to his new playing partners, other will take some time - ITS NORMAL FFS.

 

I cant believe some of you are so desperate for us to sign more players - as if our very survival depended on it. Sure we may want to develop the squad further to ensure we remain competitive throughout teh season and push for promotion... but when did the plan suddenly change from a 5 year one tio a 3 year one? Is it based on teh abck of 4 wins? Because if it is, then its not me being naive.

 

I am sure NA and NC have looked at our start and recognised that with the RIGHT additions we could go for it this year - BUT the right additions may not be availbale right now at a price that is sensible. PLayers like GORKSS or Fontaine, may well have been good squad players to add strength in depth, but has anyone thought that they fell through for the RIGHT reasons and that the management know that it was not worth concluding?

 

I suspect that if theright players at teh right deal are not available so be it, NC and NA will recognise that the push may need to be next year and see how we get on with what we have - no point in buying for the sake of it....

[PaulGilchrist_76]

In my opinion, and I repeat that for the hard of hearing, in my opinion, the purchase of a CB to play alongside Fonte is extremely important for the team this season. Far more important than buying another left back for instance. I am totally mystified why we are still faffing about, scrambling around to buy someone (anyone it seems)at this late stage. This should have been sorted out weeks (or preferably months) ago.

 

Clearly, if targets had been identified as we are led to believe, we have been singularly unsuccessful in attracting a decent CB. Why?

 

We are told that money is available and we have bid x amount for this player and y amount for another. Still no CB. Why?

 

In my opinion, this is a little puzzling.

[ltSaint91]

So we messed up with Gorkks by trying to get Fontaine instead, seriously now are we really that stupid to mess up a good option for someone with a known ankle injury?

 

Perhaps we went for Fontaine knowing it was going to fail and that it was a way of saying to another team that if you don't except our bid for your CB we will go elsewhere?

 

It does not add up somehow and I still hold on to the thought we will get our good CB in from whoever because it was a good offer we made them in the first place.

 

 

Christ. What on earth is wrong with the people on this forum? Call me crazy, but maybe, just maybe, Gorkss rejected us and chose Reading instead because he preferred their offer, or he preferred the club itself? And perhaps Fontaine failed his medical because he simply wasn't fit? Is it really that hard to get your head around? This sort of stuff happens every day. That's how it is. You win some, you lose some. Why resort to all this ridiculous, outlandish conjecture on every little thing that happens, or might have happened, or is rumoured to have happened? Get a grip.

[hutch]

Quote by many 'the transfer situation is a mess'

 

FFS get a grip and stop being so naive - Many transfers that are rumoured never happen, sometimes players fail medicals, sometimes tehy want too much and other times they just dont fit.... as to Fox and De Ridder, they have just joined and although its amazing to see how quickly Cork has adapted to his new playing partners, other will take some time - ITS NORMAL FFS.

 

I cant believe some of you are so desperate for us to sign more players - as if our very survival depended on it. Sure we may want to develop the squad further to ensure we remain competitive throughout teh season and push for promotion... but when did the plan suddenly change from a 5 year one tio a 3 year one? Is it based on teh abck of 4 wins? Because if it is, then its not me being naive.

 

I am sure NA and NC have looked at our start and recognised that with the RIGHT additions we could go for it this year - BUT the right additions may not be availbale right now at a price that is sensible. PLayers like GORKSS or Fontaine, may well have been good squad players to add strength in depth, but has anyone thought that they fell through for the RIGHT reasons and that the management know that it was not worth concluding?

 

I suspect that if theright players at teh right deal are not available so be it, NC and NA will recognise that the push may need to be next year and see how we get on with what we have - no point in buying for the sake of it....

I think it's more a case of "many quotes" than "quote by many", if you see what I mean.

 

It hasn't escaped my attention that Jack Cork has been here before, and played alongside Adam & Morgan. That must have helped. de Ridder & Fox haven't.

 

I don't understand why people are getting so worried. If we end up with Seabourne as first choice left-side CB for the next 6 months, we'll probably concede a few silly goals. If we replace him with somebody better we'll probably concede a few silly goals.

 

I don't have any idea whether we'll sign anybody else in this window. It would be nice if we did, but if we don't I won't be worried. Enjoy the ride, that's why we support Saints.