david in sweden Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 .is a common tactic for Premier League sides...and why not. If the youth / reserves players are " good enough " to play PL football, then they ought to be able to take care of lower league opposition - shouldn't they ? (Wenger has done this regularly at Arsenal in the League Cup)....and a manager need not risk losing 3 points if it doesn't work out. Nigel Adkins made big changes for cup matches last season, and started again in the L.Cup match v. Torquay but he must surely have cast a glance at some of last night's scores when three Prem. clubs; Norwich, Swansea and QPR all went out to lower league opposition. (L1/L2). With Saints, as yet unplayed second round game looming..will he continue his experiment and change out most of the line-up, and continue to give the other squad members a "run-out"...or play safe and play his strongest side? My guess is he will continue to use the regular " bench players " and trust to luck when we have to eventually travel to the West Country for the game, but last night's results will ring a warning bell to many managers that nothing can be taken for granted..and a reminder that lower league sides often play above themselves - especially when they meet higher class opposition. We may not be a Prem.side yet, but being the 21st. best team in the country is also a challenge that potential " giant-killer " sides will relish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 David, it's the Carling Cup FFS. In these early rounds it probably costs us money to even play in it. Absolutely no point in risking our first choice players when we have the possibility of pushing for a prize worth 60million quid. Winning it last year REALLY helped Brum didn't it. Keep the squad players match fit motivate them by telling them they are fighting for a place on the bench or even in the starting line up and leave them to it. That will benefit the first team on league days AND come Jan/Feb if still in it then some first teamers can help them out as we get closer to Wembley. But the idea of losing a first teamer to some stupid tackle is simply not worth it. Same with the FA Cup. Mundane games are for match fitness. Glamour games still make changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascadia Saint Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Most cup games are midweak, playing a weakend team won't help, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 24 August, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 August, 2011 (edited) David, it's the Carling Cup FFS. In these early rounds it probably costs us money to even play in it. Absolutely no point in risking our first choice players when we have the possibility of pushing for a prize worth 60million quid. Winning it last year REALLY helped Brum didn't it. Keep the squad players match fit motivate them by telling them they are fighting for a place on the bench or even in the starting line up and leave them to it. That will benefit the first team on league days AND come Jan/Feb if still in it then some first teamers can help them out as we get closer to Wembley. But the idea of losing a first teamer to some stupid tackle is simply not worth it. Same with the FA Cup. Mundane games are for match fitness. Glamour games still make changes. FWIW - I agree with all of your points dubai phi, but the shame (and I use the word advisedly) of a Prem.club falling to an L2 side is a stain on the reputation and an eternal stat. in the record books that would make me cringe! (Birmingham BTW had much bigger problems at the time, anyway.) Can you recall our League Cup defeats by Bournemouth 1987, and Shrewsbury 93, Stockport 1997 when we were in the top flight and they were glad to be playing League football ?...or the FA CUP debacle at Tranmere ? Hurts me to think about it. NO - as stated. I don't expect a full-strength side to play in the next round, but I don't want the anticipation of going for promotion to the Prem. to be spoilt by the indignity of going out of a cup competition to an L2 side, either. Edited 24 August, 2011 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 24 August, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Fair enough, but there's still something sad about weakened teams. The obsession with the premier league and ultimately money means teams would rather be 17th in the top flight and out the cups first round than risk relegation and win a trophy. But ultimately what's the point? The game is supposed to be about winning trophies. I'd rather see us win a cup personally, we've only won one.I wonder how many smaller sides could have won the cup if they'd really gone for it. Personally id like to see us go as far as possible. As a good championship team with a few top flight class players we have a chance to get through a few rounds again now. Well I suppose that the 1976 FA Cup is the only one that REALLY counts. but I have to admit that (all things considered), winning the JPT ...and playing at Wembley ...seemed very meaningful at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 I thought there was a rule that came into place about playing weakened sides or is that just in the league ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 I thought there was a rule that came into place about playing weakened sides or is that just in the league ? They changed the rules at the beginning of this season and now you are able to utilise anybody from your named 25 man squad ! This definitely applies in the Premier league so I guess that (whether it has been formalised or not) the FL would go along with it too ! The ridiculous scenario of Wolves and Blackpool being fined and Man U and Arsenal not, was clearly the trigger for this change ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Man Do Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Really if they want the League cup to be of any value they should set the same rules as the JPT where you need to have (I think) 5 or 6 of your regular starting line up in the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 IMO the league cup really isn't worth risking players over. With 46 league games and 2 cups to compete in you play a lot of games, often 3 a week for large parts of the season if a team gets on a cup run. And now that we stop for international breaks too, the fixture list will get congested anyway. Also, the league cup hasn't got the same buzz and magic that the FA cup has got. I always want us to do well in the FA cup, but I'm usually glad to see the back of the league cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 I think it's terrible the way the Cups have been undermined (remember the FA allowing Man Yoo to go to Brazil rather than play in the FA Cup!!!), but being pragmatic I can totally understand why clubs do it, particularly those on the cusp of being in the Premiership (whether in danger of being relegated or in with a chance of promotion). The rewards are so great that the Premiership is sadly the only thing that matters. Days out at Wembley are nice (I certainly enjoyed our JPT day, but then again we should have been strong enough to win that and get promoted!!), but the real magic of the Cup was lost a few years back. Would have no problems if Adkins decided to play a shadow team in the cups. Can understand the argument about being beaten by a lower team being an embarrassment (I'll take some short term redness if we get promoted) and also that a win could increase our winning streak/build confidence, but think promotion is the ultimate goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithd Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Back in the days of our Premier League residancy the League Cup often kicked started our season. Due to being terrible starters (that we USED to be!) we often went into the 2nd round games on the back of successive defeats or winless at best. We'd play a lower league team and generally win, which helped kick start our season. The players would get a win under their belts, get a positive feeling going on the training ground and go into the next league match on a bit of a high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Winning it last year REALLY helped Brum didn't it. That had nothing to do with their relegation. they had a couple of key players out for the last third of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattio Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 just play the team we did vs torquay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFHP Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Fair enough, but there's still something sad about weakened teams. The obsession with the premier league and ultimately money means teams would rather be 17th in the top flight and out the cups first round than risk relegation and win a trophy. But ultimately what's the point? The game is supposed to be about winning trophies. I'd rather see us win a cup personally, we've only won one. I wonder how many smaller sides could have won the cup if they'd really gone for it. Personally id like to see us go as far as possible. As a good championship team with a few top flight class players we have a chance to get through a few rounds again now. Ask a Birmingham fan if they would have rather lost the carling cup final and stayed up last season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLove Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 I personally think their should be a massive shake up for the cups as all the top teams care about is getting into the champions league. This is my Idea. 1st Place League and Both cup winners go into the champions league (With preference to FA Cap if there is a need for the other winner to be added to the champions league qualifier) 2nd place League Champions league qualifiers Obviously if the winner of these also wins another competition or is already qualified for the CL then the places go to the league Uefa league places then go the the other league positions. This will bring meaning back to the cups and then also add meaning to the champions league in the fact that most teams would of qualified because they one something and not managed to finish 4th 25 points behind the next position who also qualified. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 League Cup should be just that. Exclude the Prem sides and put the winner in Europe. Prem sides take the **** all the time. when they make the draw they should say it like it is Bolton Reserves v Wigan Reserves, Swansea Reserves v Stoke Reserves etc. Its a joke having them in there and degrades the comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Ask a Birmingham fan if they would have rather lost the carling cup final and stayed up last season? The two are not mutually exclusive. I expect most would have liked to have won the FA Cup and also not been relegated. Playing a weaker side in the Cup would not necessarily have meant not being relegated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 I thought there was a rule that came into place about playing weakened sides or is that just in the league ? There was a rule about having to field a certain number of the previous weekend's starting team (I think it was 5 or 6) in the JPT. Personally I think clubs should be able to field absolutely any side they want - provided the cost of attending the match reflects that you may be watching reserve team football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 It may only be the League Cup, but a couple of years ago for Saints it was 'only' the Johnstone's Paint Trophy. Okay realistically we're not going to win it but why not take it seriously if we get Premiership opposition (after the second string has swept aside Bristol City or Swindon of course). And who knows a bit of luck when it comes to the draw - and a few of the big guns playing weakened sides - we might get another day out in North West London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 It may only be the League Cup, but a couple of years ago for Saints it was 'only' the Johnstone's Paint Trophy. Okay realistically we're not going to win it but why not take it seriously if we get Premiership opposition (after the second string has swept aside Bristol City or Swindon of course). And who knows a bit of luck when it comes to the draw - and a few of the big guns playing weakened sides - we might get another day out in North West London. Realistically I think we have an outside chance if we field our starting side, get a decent draw and beat a few Prem sides' reserve teams on the way. Once we get to the quarter finals we'll probably start to have a problem with decent Prem teams fielding full strength sides though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Ask a Birmingham fan if they would have rather lost the carling cup final and stayed up last season? I just did. He said he wouldn't change it. He said the cup win can never be taken away from them, while they can be back in the Prem in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 As most on here (I hope) I want us to win everything we play for but if we were to be knocked out of this cup would I be bothered? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Most cup games are midweak, playing a weakend team won't help, surely? This post is better than most people will realise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 24 August, 2011 Share Posted 24 August, 2011 Most cup games are midweak, playing a weakend team won't help, surely? Is that a clever play on words or poor grammar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 24 August, 2011 Author Share Posted 24 August, 2011 .......and another scalp falls to an L2 side. West Ham put out most of their Reserve side at home against ...ALDERSHOT and lost 1-2. For a team who had been a Prem. side for a decade past...it won't look good in thier record books. but it could have been worse, fortunately for them... ANTHONY PULIS didn't get on the pitch until the 90th minute... as sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rut Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 Ask a Birmingham fan if they would have rather lost the carling cup final and stayed up last season? The ones who have followed Birmingham through thick and thin would take the Wembley win, some trips away in Europe and the chance of winning a few more games this season. Those who think football begins and ends in the Prem probably don't support Birmingham anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 The ones who have followed Birmingham through thick and thin would take the Wembley win, some trips away in Europe and the chance of winning a few more games this season. Those who think football begins and ends in the Prem probably don't support Birmingham anyway. But perhaps those overseeing the decision to field weakened sides aren't the "supporters" of the various clubs, but instead the owners/executives who are more motivated by the short term £££££'s offered by the Premiership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 Actually I think we can do well in this competition. With the amount of PL sides crashing out and it traditionally being a tournament for the B sides I actually see an opportunity here should we get through the first few rounds. If we can compete with the fringe PL sides we could go far. I think it would help maintain the winning mentality. The only problem would be the amount of games but then we got to utilize all our squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rut Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 But perhaps those overseeing the decision to field weakened sides aren't the "supporters" of the various clubs, but instead the owners/executives who are more motivated by the short term £££££'s offered by the Premiership. Well obviously yes. I'll slightly 'hypocrite myself' here and say that as it stands this season I'd take promotion - not the League Cup. Promotion is slightly different from staying up. With our 100% start we do appear to have a realistic chance of going up. This may not come along too often (just like a League Cup win if you are near the bottom of the league). Of course I'm saying this as an ex-pat where promotion to the Prem would mean I get to see around 75% of Saints games live on TV! If I was still living in Southampton and going to the games then a League Cup win at Wembley and some European away trips may well be preferable... Anyway - let's see what happens ey? I'll take both at the moment. Praps throw in the FA Cup as well for a treble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 .......and another scalp falls to an L2 side. West Ham put out most of their Reserve side at home against ...ALDERSHOT and lost 1-2. For a team who had been a Prem. side for a decade past...it won't look good in thier record books. but it could have been worse, fortunately for them... ANTHONY PULIS didn't get on the pitch until the 90th minute... as sub. Smart move by Dean Holdsworth, 2-1 up away to a team 2 divisions above and he brings on the Ultimate Timewaster in injury time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 How fair was that to Exeter that Liverpool fielded a strong team? Completely against the spirit of the Carling Cup. Like kicking a blind mans stick away. Disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazlo78 Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 I think the question from the OP is particularly interesting for us right now as we actually seem to have a large squad with competition for most places in the starting eleven. For that reason, I hope to see some of the fringe players being used against Swindon - we need to keep them happy, hungry and sharp too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 25 August, 2011 Author Share Posted 25 August, 2011 How fair was that to Exeter that Liverpool fielded a strong team? Completely against the spirit of the Carling Cup. Like kicking a blind mans stick away. Disgrace. Dalglish has bought in half-a dozen players this season and most of them in the last 2-3 weeks. I'd be surprised if they've even had a sit down chat with each other let alone had a lot of playing time together. That's why he had many big names on the sheet. The Exeter match was their " pre-season " and Kenny D. has to get them up and running from Day 1...and he couldn't afford to lose the game, or the opportunity of an easy win. It was good (and necessary) for team morale. Exeter would have benefitted most from the game, firstly for the bumper crowd they got, and because they played against "real Prem first-teamers " and internationals and not a team of Reserves who might never get another first team outing in their lives. Paul Tisdale and his players were the real winners, they may have lost the game but they learned a lot more about football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 25 August, 2011 Author Share Posted 25 August, 2011 Smart move by Dean Holdsworth, 2-1 up away to a team 2 divisions above and he brings on the Ultimate Timewaster in injury time. Dean H.--a tactical genius in the making ! He should go far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 Anyway - let's see what happens ey? I'll take both at the moment. Praps throw in the FA Cup as well for a treble. I'm with you there as well, I want us to do a clean sweep of everything going (inc the Daily Express 5-a-sides at Wembley if it's still going). That said, I wouldn't have any problem if Adkins and the powers that be start to prioritise the league over the cups as the season progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackedoff Posted 25 August, 2011 Share Posted 25 August, 2011 SIMPLE SOLUTION TO CARLING CUP PROBLEM 1 All Championship, L1 and L2 teams play on a knockout basis untill two teams remain. 2 These two play each other home and away to produce winner. 3 This winner then plays whoever is top of the prem at that point at the Prem teams ground to decide who wins cup.( Prem team keeps all gate money ). This ensures ( probably ) a Prem side cup win with minimal effort whilst ensuring least money filters down the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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