Simon Clifford...

[Alain Perrin]

I don't think Woodward was on the scene before Luggy rocked up in early 2004. I thought things started to hot up early in the follwoing season when he appeared in the Director's Box at Villa Park.

 

Your version could have some truth in it if you perhaps swapped Wigley for Sturrock, as Sturrock was soon axed and Wigley shoe-horned in to a job he didn't want 6 months earlier.

 

I believe I was at an event when RL met SCW (Rugby Premiership Final in 2003) - SCW was a guest speaker and Rupert was wearing a jacket with suede lapels FWIW. Therefore I don't believe the 'plan' was hatched until post-Sturrock.

[Dalek2003]

Who??? Feel free to mention some names.

 

Let's say I was friendly with quite a few back then, and although those who were around in 2000/1 appreciated a lot of what Hoddle did, there was still much anger and animosity still being held in 2004 over the way he shot off to South Africa and then straight up to N17.

 

So which players wanted Hoddle back then?

 

I have only heard rumours etc and so my source of information is not that strong. However, how friendly were you with the players in reality ? This is key to getting the real opinion of the players. For example if you were related to them, or a member of the coaching staff or indeed a player I would expect the players to trust you as part of the inner circle. After this I doubt the players reveal their true feelings. For example do people really think the players tell the full story to a steward or someone in admin ? Of course not, I have met professional players in the past and on the whole they a re pretty guarded in what they say about the inner goings on in a club. This would apply to someone they were friendly with outside the club ie the local newsagent.

So, if you don't mind it would be helpful to reveal. a. How friendly you were with the players b. The circumstances which allowed you to be 'friendly' with the players. This will then help gauge the quality of your so called 'information' form the players.

[Give it to Ron]

I have only heard rumours etc and so my source of information is not that strong. However, how friendly were you with the players in reality ? This is key to getting the real opinion of the players. For example if you were related to them, or a member of the coaching staff or indeed a player I would expect the players to trust you as part of the inner circle. After this I doubt the players reveal their true feelings. For example do people really think the players tell the full story to a steward or someone in admin ? Of course not, I have met professional players in the past and on the whole they a re pretty guarded in what they say about the inner goings on in a club. This would apply to someone they were friendly with outside the club ie the local newsagent.

So, if you don't mind it would be helpful to reveal. a. How friendly you were with the players b. The circumstances which allowed you to be 'friendly' with the players. This will then help gauge the quality of your so called 'information' form the players.

 

Are you really a teacher?

[Token]

Looking on Wikipedia (so it must be true), Clifford owns the brand name "Futebol de Salao" where as "Futsal" is the generic term used by FIFA.

 

As a keen futsal enthusiast for several years, I was originally quite pleased when Clifford joined Saints, and did investigate the differences between the two variations back then. His version is played with a much smaller ball and one that hardly bounces at all. It seems an ideal early training method for young children (up to teens) and is probably why his soccer schools are such a success. I don't doubt that many brazillian legends started this way.

Futsal is now the most popular (and, I think, only official FIFA) version of the small sided game. Back in the mid 80's there were numerous small sided games, all with different rules and I think there was a movement to get one standard game for all. Futsal was the result, which I would say is more suitable for teen/adults.

I have played 5-a-side for years and switched to Futsal about 8 years ago. It is vastly superior to the version traditionally played in the UK, encouraging greater skill in ball control, interpassing and pass & go style play. No surprise it is a higly popular in Spain, Italy and most of Eastern Europe. There are World Cups and European tournaments - needless to say we lag significantly behind the rest of the world on this and have hardly won any games. We have been very slow to get leagues up and running in this country, mainly centred around Sheffield up until now.

In Brazil, Spain, Portugal etc there are often crowds of several thousand at league games and it is an entertainment form in it's own right. pleased to see Saints adopt this at a local level and hopefully we will see this introduced at more of our local schools and sports centres as the standard version of the game (whoever thought kicking an oversized tennis ball against walls was a good idea!!!) I think it is a vital tool in the upskilling of our youngsters and will help us close the gap on those more technically competant countries like Spain.

[Token]

Right, so it IS the same then. Phew.

 

I'm now assuming I misread the tweet, and what Clifford was comparing was the number of touches per minute in Futsal/Futebol de Salao compared to something like 5-a-side (or maybe 11-a-side), as opposed to Futsal v Futebol de Salao, which are the same thing. Come to think of it, if they were mostly playing Redknapp-approved 5-a-sides that would make sense...

 

No you read it right first time. Not the same and Clifford prefers "his" version, which is why he compares the number of touches. I would say his is good for kids but we are making progress if we are now adopting Futsal. Harry wouldn't have understood either and I can imagine that he would not have given Clifford much credit for suggesting it as a training method.

[dubai_phil]

As a keen futsal enthusiast for several years, I was originally quite pleased when Clifford joined Saints, and did investigate the differences between the two variations back then. His version is played with a much smaller ball and one that hardly bounces at all. It seems an ideal early training method for young children (up to teens) and is probably why his soccer schools are such a success. I don't doubt that many brazillian legends started this way.

Futsal is now the most popular (and, I think, only official FIFA) version of the small sided game. Back in the mid 80's there were numerous small sided games, all with different rules and I think there was a movement to get one standard game for all. Futsal was the result, which I would say is more suitable for teen/adults.

I have played 5-a-side for years and switched to Futsal about 8 years ago. It is vastly superior to the version traditionally played in the UK, encouraging greater skill in ball control, interpassing and pass & go style play. No surprise it is a higly popular in Spain, Italy and most of Eastern Europe. There are World Cups and European tournaments - needless to say we lag significantly behind the rest of the world on this and have hardly won any games. We have been very slow to get leagues up and running in this country, mainly centred around Sheffield up until now.

In Brazil, Spain, Portugal etc there are often crowds of several thousand at league games and it is an entertainment form in it's own right. pleased to see Saints adopt this at a local level and hopefully we will see this introduced at more of our local schools and sports centres as the standard version of the game (whoever thought kicking an oversized tennis ball against walls was a good idea!!!) I think it is a vital tool in the upskilling of our youngsters and will help us close the gap on those more technically competant countries like Spain.

 

Interesting post thanks.

 

ANYTHING that gets ENGLISH kids learning first has to be welcomed.

 

There have been so many articles of late about how kids soccer is "limited" by over zealous parents and the cries of Get rid of it being a part in the demise of the National Team and a reason why so few English players actually make the step up to the PL

[Lord Duckhunter]

Harry wouldn't have understood either and I can imagine that he would not have given Clifford much credit for suggesting it as a training method.

 

Harry seems to have done ok without Clifford's fantastic training method since he left us. Clifford, on the other hand..............

[tpbury]

Well, I'm just about to sign my (Australian) kids into Futsal for the off season. I didn't realise it was so different. I am even considering joining the seniors group.

 

It is interesting going over those stories from the dark days - we really were easy to have the p 1 55 taken out of us. Carousel. Clowns. etc.

 

Those days are gone. Fuggeddaboddit.

 

Forward Forza Saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wade Garrett]

Clifford and Woodward was an effort by Rupert Lowe to break the football mould.

 

Clifford, unfortunately, is a bit of a charlatan. His 'Brazilian Soccer Schools' are well marketed, but massively inferior to other youth coaching projects. Our own Keith Granger has a far better scheme with his Football Garage.

 

£300k salary for a kids coach was an absolute joke. No wonder clubs haven't been banging Clifford's door down since he left us. Ridiculous.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I think some of the principles could have been excellent; Woodward was seemingly very good at surrounding himself with experts and raising individual performance levels by one or two per cent at a time to get elite athletes performing at their optimal level.

Unfortunately, the costs involved were astronomical at a time when we'd just lost the financial security of the Premier League. We could have put the money spent on Woodward into the team and invested in the sports science as and when we got back to the top table.

 

Trying to put together the costs of the whole exercise would just reduce me to tears. Allegedly £1M per year for Woodward. £300K per year for Clifford. They refurbished parts of the training ground setup, putting in various costly gadgets, gizmos, playstations and such like. I'm pretty sure they hired a "vision coach" too. And I've probably erased from memory various other hair-brained schemes that took up vital funds and neglected the playing side of things.

 

He turns up a day or so a week, and gets credit for the idea of paying for a shed load of experts who allegedly improve performance in their own micro-specialisms by an alleged 1%. This kind of thing is more of a religious belief than anything that has an effect you could really prove. This stuff might do something but is in itself pretty unscientific - it could just be a placebo-like effect of making players feel pampered. An hour's laptop dancing might do just as well.

 

SCW might have done better with English rugby than others may have done immediately before him, but so what? Someone somewhere will always be doing better than someone else has done before. Would you start employing a German rowing coach because we've had rowing success? Let's be honest, Lowe got mesmerised by Woodward precisely because Lowe was more intrested in rugby than football. Lowe convinced himself he could revolutionise football just because he didn't like the way the game worked and those in it, but still went and appointed a "football man" like Redknapp! What a bell.

[um pahars]

I have only heard rumours etc and so my source of information is not that strong.

 

Just one or two of the players who were for Hoddle coming back will suffice.

 

As for how did I know the players, then some on here must be aware, but I'll send you a PM as don't want to put all the stuff up here.

[The Kraken]

He turns up a day or so a week, and gets credit for the idea of paying for a shed load of experts who allegedly improve performance in their own micro-specialisms by an alleged 1%. This kind of thing is more of a religious belief than anything that has an effect you could really prove. This stuff might do something but is in itself pretty unscientific - it could just be a placebo-like effect of making players feel pampered. An hour's laptop dancing might do just as well.

 

SCW might have done better with English rugby than others may have done immediately before him, but so what? Someone somewhere will always be doing better than someone else has done before. Would you start employing a German rowing coach because we've had rowing success? Let's be honest, Lowe got mesmerised by Woodward precisely because Lowe was more intrested in rugby than football. Lowe convinced himself he could revolutionise football just because he didn't like the way the game worked and those in it, but still went and appointed a "football man" like Redknapp! What a bell.

 

Woodward always worked to the idea that the easiest way to significantly improve the performance of an elite athlete was to break it down and instead of finding a 10% improvement overall, find 10 different things that can be improved and improve them by 1% each. It's fairly common sense and nothing really innovational, but demonstrates how you use the likes of fitness coaches, vision coaches etc etc to look outside the box and work on the whole field of athlete skills.

 

I've said before, the idea of Woodward in such an advanced role for us was complete lunacy. But there are definitely parts of his skillset which can be applied to many sports (which I guess is why he is in his role with the BOA right now). Football teams have used rugby league fitness coaches before. Athletics sprinting coaches (Darren Campbell) have been and still are employed to work with football squads. Just because someone comes from a different sporting background it really doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer to football. Which is why I can see there is potential for cross-sports training iniatives. What we did, however, was never, ever going to work in principle as it was far, far too much too soon and gave far too much responsibility to one man who effectively knew nothing about the inner workings of a football club.

[Foxstone]

Woodward always worked to the idea that the easiest way to significantly improve the performance of an elite athlete was to break it down and instead of finding a 10% improvement overall, find 10 different things that can be improved and improve them by 1% each. It's fairly common sense and nothing really innovational, but demonstrates how you use the likes of fitness coaches, vision coaches etc etc to look outside the box and work on the whole field of athlete skills.

 

I've said before, the idea of Woodward in such an advanced role for us was complete lunacy. But there are definitely parts of his skillset which can be applied to many sports (which I guess is why he is in his role with the BOA right now). Football teams have used rugby league fitness coaches before. Athletics sprinting coaches (Darren Campbell) have been and still are employed to work with football squads. Just because someone comes from a different sporting background it really doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer to football. Which is why I can see there is potential for cross-sports training iniatives. What we did, however, was never, ever going to work in principle as it was far, far too much too soon and gave far too much responsibility to one man who effectively knew nothing about the inner workings of a football club.

 

Absolutely agree with you.

 

As a rugby man, Woodward was a first class manager/coach who moulded a squad of strong personalities and ego's ( albeit with great talent) into world beaters ! That achievement stands him in the pantheon of "Greatest English Managers"!

I agree there was much in his locker that could have tranferred across sports and benefitted Saints - We had no winning mentality at the time for one, and that is something he was particularly adept at engendering into his rugby sides.

 

What was crackers though was Rupert trying to complete a jigsaw puzzle using all the wrong pieces ! SCW and Twitch were a match made in hell, and add to that this Clifford bloke !! There was no real coherent strategy or terms of reference and the whole think imploded!!

[Lord Duckhunter]

Andy Flower has done a great job with our cricket team, and has certainly turned them into hardened winners and changed the mentaility of the team. If NC was to appoint him to the SMS coaching staff, then quite rightly the men in white coats would come and take him away.

 

The only difference between him and Woodward, is that Woodward likes to blow his own trumpet and somehow manages to convince people that sucsess in one sporting field, can be transfered directly to another. If that was the case, perhaps we should have made Brain Clough chairman of the England selectors for the 1976 West Indies series, perhaps we would have made them grovel after all............

[The9]

No you read it right first time. Not the same and Clifford prefers "his" version, which is why he compares the number of touches. I would say his is good for kids but we are making progress if we are now adopting Futsal. Harry wouldn't have understood either and I can imagine that he would not have given Clifford much credit for suggesting it as a training method.

 

Ok, well thanks for your insight - I've seen some of it on Eurosport but didn't appreciate the nuances. I probably still don't, but at least I know they're different now.

 

Also, did he say SEVEN touches a minute per player versus about 2 ? That's got to be due to the need to micromanage the ball when in possession as opposed to actually having more spells on the ball, hasn't it ? I can sort of see how a smaller ball which couldn't be ricocheted past someone would improve close control, we had footballs banned in school and played with a tennis ball which probably improved me more than I ever gave it credit for - especially my heading !

[The Kraken]

Andy Flower has done a great job with our cricket team, and has certainly turned them into hardened winners and changed the mentaility of the team. If NC was to appoint him to the SMS coaching staff, then quite rightly the men in white coats would come and take him away.

 

The only difference between him and Woodward, is that Woodward likes to blow his own trumpet and somehow manages to convince people that sucsess in one sporting field, can be transfered directly to another. If that was the case, perhaps we should have made Brain Clough chairman of the England selectors for the 1976 West Indies series, perhaps we would have made them grovel after all............

 

I don't quite understand this point of view. That coaches successful in another sport cannot transfer some of their skills to benefit a different sport.

 

The madness of our whole idea was that the "Woodward role" needed to be undertaken by someone who knew all about the inner workings of a football club. It's exactly the same role that Les Reed currently has with Saints. But to say that you should instantly rule out sprinting coaches from athletics, fitness coaches from rugby, and all sorts of other individuals with a huge variety of different skills, is thoroughly closed-minded IMO.

[SaintRobbie]

....spouting off on twitter.

 

Rupert Lowe was a genius, and he knows better about training techniques than the current regime, plus much, much more...

 

http://twitter.com/#!/SimonDClifford

 

Its like watching Gadaffi's son. Dead and buried. A joke. A fraud.

[Thedelldays]

fecking hell

 

and people dare suggest Cortese is nothing but Rupert with Money

 

 

eer, cant see it myself....jesus

[The9]

Athletics sprinting coaches (Darren Campbell) have been and still are employed to work with football squads. Just because someone comes from a different sporting background it really doesn't mean that they have nothing to offer to football. Which is why I can see there is potential for cross-sports training iniatives. What we did, however, was never, ever going to work in principle as it was far, far too much too soon and gave far too much responsibility to one man who effectively knew nothing about the inner workings of a football club.

 

Worth pointing out that Darren Campbell played semi-pro football for Weymouth in the early/mid 90s, so he had some relevant "inside" footballing knowledge already to a certain level (though last time I saw him circa 1998 he was playing Newport & District Premier X, which is below the 3 divisions of the Gwent County League, the 3 divisions of the Welsh League and the Welsh Premier League, which itself at best is probably on a par with the English Conference South at tier 6 of the English Pyramid). You wouldn't expect him to be able to manage a professional football team though.

[Pancake]

Its like watching Gadaffi's son. Dead and buried. A joke. A fraud.

 

*Gaddafi

[The Kraken]

Worth pointing out that Darren Campbell played semi-pro football for Weymouth in the early/mid 90s, so he had some relevant "inside" footballing knowledge already to a certain level (though last time I saw him circa 1998 he was playing Newport & District Premier X, which is below the 3 divisions of the Gwent County League, the 3 divisions of the Welsh League and the Welsh Premier League, which itself at best is probably on a par with the English Conference South at tier 6 of the English Pyramid). You wouldn't expect him to be able to manage a professional football team though.

 

And you'll see that's not what I'm advocating by any stretch, and is indeed where our way of doing it went so drsatically wrong. But there is clearly scope to have a Woodward-type role work at a football club; we are living proof as I previously said, Les Reed occupies the hot seat. But the main man simply has to understand every single aspect of how a football club operates.

 

There are so many areas where experts from other sports could have an input into the way football clubs operate, I've already mentioned some of them, you have fitness and conditioning experts, food nutritionists, all sorts who previously have had success in other fields (predominantly athletics, I would suggest). Closing off to the possibility that other sports could offer something new (and better) in certain areas is naive IMO.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I don't quite understand this point of view. That coaches successful in another sport cannot transfer some of their skills to benefit a different sport.

 

The madness of our whole idea was that the "Woodward role" needed to be undertaken by someone who knew all about the inner workings of a football club. It's exactly the same role that Les Reed currently has with Saints. But to say that you should instantly rule out sprinting coaches from athletics, fitness coaches from rugby, and all sorts of other individuals with a huge variety of different skills, is thoroughly closed-minded IMO.

 

Of course specific skills can be transfered from one sport to another, but that is not what we are talking about with Woodward. He was Director of Football, he was earmarked and talked about becoming a Football manager and was not just confined to his specific knowledge. had Woodward been brought in to coach some of the skills that are shared by football and Rugby (and paid accordingly) then there wouldn't have been an issue.

[The9]

And you'll see that's not what I'm advocating by any stretch, and is indeed where our way of doing it went so drsatically wrong. But there is clearly scope to have a Woodward-type role work at a football club; we are living proof as I previously said, Les Reed occupies the hot seat.

 

There are so many areas where experts from other sports could have an input into the way football clubs operate, I've already mentioned some of them, you have fitness and conditioning experts, food nutritionists, all sorts who previously have had success in other fields (predominantly athletics, I would suggest). Closing off to the possibility that other sports could offer something new (and better) in certain areas is naive IMO.

 

I agree entirely. At the time there were so many on here basically saying "but he does RUGBY" and not even sparing a second of thought to look at what Woodward could have done. Having said that the manager was the wrong kind of person, the situation was wrong, the timing was wrong and the money being spent was wrong, in this specific case.

[Lord Duckhunter]

And you'll see that's not what I'm advocating by any stretch, and is indeed where our way of doing it went so drsatically wrong. But there is clearly scope to have a Woodward-type role work at a football club; we are living proof as I previously said, Les Reed occupies the hot seat.

 

.

 

Like him or hate him, Reed has a far better footballing CV than Woodward. I dont think that anybody is disputing the role that Woodward carried out, it's just that he wasn't qualified to perform it, and certainly did not justify the huge wages he was paid.

[The Kraken]

Of course specific skills can be transfered from one sport to another, but that is not what we are talking about with Woodward. He was Director of Football, he was earmarked and talked about becoming a Football manager and was not just confined to his specific knowledge. had Woodward been brought in to coach some of the skills that are shared by football and Rugby (and paid accordingly) then there wouldn't have been an issue.

 

I think we agree; as I've said, putting Woodward in the DoF role was lunacy, as he knew next to nothing about a football club and all that it entails. Having him learn his trade with us (on a £1M p.a. salary, is that the best apprenticeship wage ever?) to eventually take over the first team was madness of the highest order, especially considering we couldn't really afford it. But I do think that, under the right stewardship, someone like Woodward (would have to be someone cheaper though) could potentially benefit a football club. For Saints at the time though it's difficult to see one area where it did or could have succeeded.

[um pahars]

I think we agree; as I've said, putting Woodward in the DoF role was lunacy, as he knew next to nothing about a football club and all that it entails. Having him learn his trade with us (on a £1M p.a. salary, is that the best apprenticeship wage ever?) to eventually take over the first team was madness of the highest order, especially considering we couldn't really afford it. But I do think that, under the right stewardship, someone like Woodward (would have to be someone cheaper though) could potentially benefit a football club. For Saints at the time though it's difficult to see one area where it did or could have succeeded.

 

Spot on.

 

And re-reading those Clifford tweets just reminds me how fecking mental it all became and how mad Lowe was post the Cup Final.

 

I remember people chastising me because I went from thinking Lowe wasn't all bad to thinking he had lost it big time (I think GM used to bring up a post from 2000'ish where I praised Lowe and tried to use it as a stick to beat me with, whereas I didn't see any problem judging people by their merits and not thinking they were either always brilliant or always terrible).

 

Is there something about football that makes people become egotistical maniacs or does it only attract those kind of people in the first place and it takes some time for their true colours to show????

 

The vision that Clifford sets out is absolutely stark raving mentalism of the highest order and to me a clear indication that Lowe had lost it by that point (forget the Total Voetball that followed it).

[Token]

Well, I'm just about to sign my (Australian) kids into Futsal for the off season. I didn't realise it was so different. I am even considering joining the seniors group.

 

It is interesting going over those stories from the dark days - we really were easy to have the p 1 55 taken out of us. Carousel. Clowns. etc.

 

Those days are gone. Fuggeddaboddit.

 

Forward Forza Saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Futsal is closer to the skills needed for 11-a-side football than the 5-a-side we have tended to play in the UK. size 4 ball, no head height rule, the ball goes out for throw-ins (actually a kick in), corners, goalkicks (throw out), goalies can come out of area. There are 4 second rules for getting ball back in play, and restrictions on passbacks to keeper. No offsides fortunately! Once played, it is unlikely you would want to play the old English version again. Clifford's is very different, and as I said, I think more appropriate to younger players. Australia seems ahead of us on this one as my son in Melbourne says it seemed to be the standard version played there.Plenty of video clips on YouTube, one showing a young Ronaldhinho somewhere I think. Look for any featuring a player called Falcao to see why it is so popular in some places - amazing skills! Sadly, at my age attempting any of those tricks would cost me a fortune in chiropracter bills but still keeps me fit chasing the younger lads!

I don't think Clifford's arrogance does him any favours and I don't think there was ever a place for him in the professional game. I imagine he earns more from his schools business than he ever would have as a schoolteacher, and I guess he has a lot more freedom than reporting to a headmaster. As he bought Garforth Town with money earned in the first few years of his business and now has 320 schools worldwide, he probably isn't struggling for a penny or two now.

He seems a master in self promotion, developed the idea after meeting Juninho, had Socrates at one stage playing in his team (I think only for one game but I remember it got on the main BBC news at the time) so no surprise Woodward was impressed initially. I always admired Lowe's vision although the delivery was too often flawed, no more so than in the appointment of these two at the same time as he was trying to work with Harry. I doubt if Harry was his choice at all and suspect that he was forced into that appointment. The differences between the two of them always meant we were heading for disaster from that moment on, regardless of what happened with Woodward.

I finfd it interesting now that Cortese has a very similar vision to Lowe's but is executing this so much better - possibly helped by being totally in control. Obviously had his "Harry" in Pardew but back on track now with a Director Of Football doing the Woodward role but fully supported by a young upcoming English first team coach in Nigel (ala Gray/Wigley). Going forward playing a "continental" passing game, which starts at youth level right up to the first team, developing our own players who are comfortable playing that way, with sports science significant in the background to achieve the maximum from the resources available. Very much the ideas that Rupert had but lacked the control to carry out, and he was trying to change a relatively successful structure, where Cortese has the advantage of starting from the beginning again, and possibly access to greater funds (although I suspect the intention is not to access these unless essential and not long term, if there is access). I hope he continues to be more successful than Rupert was in achieving the end result they both wanted.

As for Harry, we were really the one black mark on his CV, although I can't help thinking much of his success has been on the back of having a generous transfer budget that allows him to deal in estabilished names - not sure how much development of young players he has achieved since his West ham days.

Finally, one recollection of those days that always amused me. I was waiting in the reception area with a friend, for a Herbie tour before a game. The reception staff were arguing with someone on the phone who insisted he was a friend of Harry Bassett and must speak to him at once. The staff were all convinced he was a chancer and clearly wasn't a friend of anyone on the staff as he had confused the names of both the manager and his assistant. There was universal agreement until I pointed out that Dave bassett had been known for years as Harry, a reference to his surname and a character on a liquorice allsort pack! a few mumbled words of apology and he was put through!

[The Kraken]

Finally, one recollection of those days that always amused me. I was waiting in the reception area with a friend, for a Herbie tour before a game. The reception staff were arguing with someone on the phone who insisted he was a friend of Harry Bassett and must speak to him at once. The staff were all convinced he was a chancer and clearly wasn't a friend of anyone on the staff as he had confused the names of both the manager and his assistant. There was universal agreement until I pointed out that Dave bassett had been known for years as Harry, a reference to his surname and a character on a liquorice allsort pack! a few mumbled words of apology and he was put through!

 

Isn't that Bertie Bassett?

 

I've actually got no idea why he's called Harry.

[um pahars]

Isn't that Bertie Bassett?

 

I've actually got no idea why he's called Harry.

 

It' shis dad's name and think he was called Harry junior or little Harry which then stuck.

[dubai_phil]

Again, good post by Token.

 

Let's just all agree that Lowe was a really poor implementer & communicator and..

 

Token

I finfd it interesting now that Cortese has a very similar vision to Lowe's but is executing this so much better - possibly helped by being totally in control. Obviously had his "Harry" in Pardew but back on track now with a Director Of Football doing the Woodward role but fully supported by a young upcoming English first team coach in Nigel (ala Gray/Wigley). Going forward playing a "continental" passing game, which starts at youth level right up to the first team, developing our own players who are comfortable playing that way, with sports science significant in the background to achieve the maximum from the resources available. Very much the ideas that Rupert had but lacked the control to carry out, and he was trying to change a relatively successful structure, where Cortese has the advantage of starting from the beginning again, and possibly access to greater funds

 

Reading that re-inforces two things...

 

1) I still think it is really important to UNDERSTAND the mistakes that were made, because mistakes are how people learn to improve and the CORE idea here is "similar" to what we tried (and failed) to do before. Not gonna debate why NC is being much more successful at it because that could fill a whole new 100 page thread.

2) It really is eerily similar to what went before (and what Arsenal & Mancs try to do) so we really SHOULD learn from mistakes (ie FFS sign another CB Nige, don't be a Wenger!). Wonder who gave that idea/plan to NC? I don't believe for one minute that he sat in his bank, called Marcus and said "I have a revolutionary idea to run a football club..." Is it from Les Read? Was it from AP? Was it POSSIBLY from someone who used to be at the club before? Who else stayed on after the Dutchies went?

 

(And one name everyone has forgotten who did come in with NC in the rescue was............? Could it have been his idea? )

[Dalek2003]

Again, good post by Token.

 

Let's just all agree that Lowe was a really poor implementer & communicator and..

 

 

 

Reading that re-inforces two things...

 

1) I still think it is really important to UNDERSTAND the mistakes that were made, because mistakes are how people learn to improve and the CORE idea here is "similar" to what we tried (and failed) to do before. Not gonna debate why NC is being much more successful at it because that could fill a whole new 100 page thread.

2) It really is eerily similar to what went before (and what Arsenal & Mancs try to do) so we really SHOULD learn from mistakes (ie FFS sign another CB Nige, don't be a Wenger!). Wonder who gave that idea/plan to NC? I don't believe for one minute that he sat in his bank, called Marcus and said "I have a revolutionary idea to run a football club..." Is it from Les Read? Was it from AP? Was it POSSIBLY from someone who used to be at the club before? Who else stayed on after the Dutchies went?

 

(And one name everyone has forgotten who did come in with NC in the rescue was............? Could it have been his idea? )

 

Sorry, I have forgotten, please tell me !

[um pahars]

Sorry, I have forgotten, please tell me !

 

I presume Phil means Andy Oldknow.

 

To be honest what Cortese is doing (and doing well) is nothing different from many clubs up and down the country and to trying and suggest he is actually following Lowe's path is disengenuous IMHO. Investing in youth (for use in first team and/or providing an income), appointing the right manager, supporting him in the transfer market and being successful are not new ideas and certainly not Lowe's blueprint.

 

New ideas that Lowe tried would include appointing a Rugby Coach and a self publicist of kiddies football as Football Manager & Assistant designate and asking them to undermine the current incumbents.

[Weston Saint]

I presume Phil means Andy Oldknow.

 

To be honest what Cortese is doing (and doing well) is nothing different from many clubs up and down the country and to trying and suggest he is actually following Lowe's path is disengenuous IMHO. Investing in youth (for use in first team and/or providing an income), appointing the right manager, supporting him in the transfer market and being successful are not new ideas and certainly not Lowe's blueprint.

 

New ideas that Lowe tried would include appointing a Rugby Coach and a self publicist of kiddies football as Football Manager & Assistant designate and asking them to undermine the current incumbents.

 

Here is a novel thought. Could this just be the plan Lowe & Co put together to obtain investment and when none came in and the club went tits up a certain group of individuals such as C & O used it as a blue print for the future. For a while I have thought the similarities with which Lowe wanted to go (Sir Clive excluded) is uncanny!!! A plan was floated around just before Administration, in high circles.

[JackFrost]

Look for any featuring a player called Falcao to see why it is so popular in some places - amazing skills!

 

Wonder if it's the same Falcao that's just gone from Porto to Atletico Madrid for 40 million Euros

[um pahars]

Here is a novel thought. Could this just be the plan Lowe & Co put together to obtain investment and when none came in and the club went tits up a certain group of individuals such as C & O used it as a blue print for the future.

 

In a word, no.

[aintforever]

All this comparison of Cortese and Lowe is b*ll*x. Virtually every chairman up and down the country, and probably abroad wants to develop youth, sports science etc.

 

Cortese would never in a million years make some of the lunatic decisions Lowe did.

[Alain Perrin]

I think the wounds of RL still run deep and getting people on either side to admit that there are pluses and minuses about his 'reign' is like trying to ski through a revolving door.

 

Some of what RL built is being put to good use by NC, backed by money and some other ideas too. Trying to implement RL's vision when we were potless was either very brave or very stupid depending on whether you think we had an alternative (i.e. if contracts were signed before relegation etc.).

 

What matters though is we're in a better place now. With good facilities, good management and a winning team.

 

(Just one correction before it moves into a groundless myth. SC says that SCW went in one or two days a week AFTER the club had terminated the experiment so as to collect his cheque. SC doesn't say that SCW was getting paid a year for doing 1-2 days per week before the experiment ended.)

[Weston Saint]

In a word, no.

Wrong answer Steve

[um pahars]

Wrong answer Steve

 

Sorry Ron, but I find the idea that Cortese has picked up Chairman Lowe's little red book and is using it to run the Club as somewhat insulting to Cortese. The basic principles of running a football club aren't rocket science, it only seems to get hard work when you either get the big appointments wrong or you attempt to go off piste and think you know more than you do.

 

(plus talking to AO in the past, he and others weren't impressed by what they found when they rocked up - not that they didn't create or leave their own problems, just highlighting that he, and they, weren't enamoured by what the little red book was delivering and do were unlikely to replicate it).

Edited 23 August, 2011 by um pahars

[aintforever]

Maybe Cortese looked at the Barcelona model and thought "that's sh!t, I'm gonna go down the tried and tested Rupert relegation route"

[Token]

Isn't that Bertie Bassett?

 

I've actually got no idea why he's called Harry.

 

Oops - quite right! Was told this originally by a financial advisor many years ago who I think was working with Bassett then - when he had just finished as a player with Wimbledon. Never questioned it until now. Always beware of what financial advisors tell you1

Just back from my weekly game of Futsal so a few other points to comment on. Don't think Cortese is in anyway influenced by what Lowe wanted, or anyone else for that matter. I am sure everything that is happening is his own idea. After all he was not the sort of banker sat in an office all day, but more a personal relationship manager for high net worth customers especially in the sports sector if I recall, so would have mixed with a large number of agents/club officials across Europe during his career, as well as businessmen like Marcus. I wouldn't agree that this vision is that universally shared across English football, hence why we are one of the few taking the academy proposal so seriously. Yes, all may wish it to happen but not all see it as a fundamental part of the plan, which both Lowe and Cortese do. I would imagine the presence of the academy and our track record with development of young players was a positive factor in the decision to purchase. For all Lowe's faults, this was a success and Prost's reputation was quite high across Europe, I think. Andy Oldknow only came on the scene during the Wilde years, and I think he had gone by the time Lowe returned, so not sure the two of them worked together for any time. Clearly Cortese didn't appear that impressed with him given his short tenure after the takeover and some of the comments made about Pardew's appointment later.

As for Cortese not making the same mistakes as Lowe did, I hope not but hard to be certain. Lowe wasn't always so unpopular with the majority of fans (both will always have a number against them) and I can remember a testimonial game at the Dell, when Stuart Gray was newly appointed, when he appeared as a sub to a warm reception. Yes, this was later used to ridicule him but I think at the time most of us were quite happy with him. It was the later decisions, which got more crazy as time went on, that led to the intense dislike for most. But both can be accused of arrogance and single mindedness. Both had little time for their predecessors or club legends. At the moment Cortese seems to be getting everything right - long may it continue.

And no, the Falcao of the Futsal world has never played full blown football at any significant level, as far as I am aware. The game is that big in some other countries that eventually you can have a career just in Futsal. I believe it is professional in places like Spain, Portugal, Brazil with purpose built stadiums. Falcao is that outstanding that I am sure he would also make money from endorsements and sponsorship. A bit like the various forms of cricket now where some are suitable for one form but not another.

[dubai_phil]

In a word, no.

 

On a word. Possibly.

 

None of us know who the backroom staff spoke to "in those desperate days". We all assume that Lowe was single (or is that simple) minded and never sought any outside investment or a sale of the club. But then as the saying goes. To assume makes an ass out of u and me.

 

Possibly is a far more realistic idea than believing a Banker came up with the idea from scratch.

 

(Although) it (the basic concept) has appeared in the prospectus of other "buy outs" including the Bryan Robson/Thailand TV fiasco

[um pahars]

 

Possibly is a far more realistic idea than believing a Banker came up with the idea from scratch.

 

But he never had to build something from scratch or reinvent the wheel. The infrastructure was already there and there were some decent people still in situ. Plus of course he brought others in to help him, inc AO.

[Doctoroncall]

Sorry Ron, but I find the idea that Cortese has picked up Chairman Lowe's little red book and is using it to run the Club as somewhat insulting to Cortese. The basic principles of running a football club aren't rocket science, it only seems to get hard work when you either get the big appointments wrong or you attempt to go off piste and think you know more than you do.

 

(plus talking to AO in the past, he and others weren't impressed by what they found when they rocked up - not that they didn't create or leave their own problems, just highlighting that he, and they, weren't enamoured by what the little red book was delivering and do were unlikely to replicate it).

 

I have to agree. The good things tend to last a bit longer than anything badly implemented, so there was a shell to work on and the biggest piece of the puzzle is obtaining the right personnel to perform as a team and have the ability for looking after their own department. It looked liked Pardew had the ability to manage the first team but added nothing to the rest of the vision of Saints whereas it looks like Adkins ticks all the boxes. I only know Les Reed is a respected coach so it will be interesting to see if he can deliver on his task of getting the talented youngsters through to the first team.

[up and away]

Here is a novel thought. Could this just be the plan Lowe & Co put together to obtain investment and when none came in and the club went tits up a certain group of individuals such as C & O used it as a blue print for the future. For a while I have thought the similarities with which Lowe wanted to go (Sir Clive excluded) is uncanny!!! A plan was floated around just before Administration, in high circles.

 

That's the one thing I really found spooky, so many similarities. With an intelligent person such as Cortese, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he looked at everything he could get his hands on, accepted what had value and discarded what did not. Lowe's model was the Dutch clubs, primarily Ajax. But just give Ajax the finances and what do you get, a Barcelona?

 

Cortese has set up a player / transfer group which looks identical in personnel and numbers to what Lowe set up for acquisitions. Les Reed seems to be the nuts and bolts man who implements the detail of what Cortese is trying to achieve and I am truly gobsmacked at how things have worked out. This would not stand a chance of working with the likes of the Bassets in the picture, but Cortese has not allowed that to happen, along with the politics to undermine the club. What looks such an over whelming success from the little that I have seen, is how Adkins utilises all the technology and expertise he has available to get the absolute maximum from the system to the benefit of the team on the pitch.

 

I do know that Cortese has looked back through our past in great detail from several comments he has made, so it would come as no surprise that if he found something of value he would use it. Something any intelligent person would do from outside the industry, irrespective of the source.

 

When you look back at the implementation of closing parts of the stadium and the uproar that created, you really wonder why that has abated! Lowe could never remove the politics from the club, but Cortese has shown that with an iron will and fair hand, just what can be done when you have the finances and undisolved power. That was Cortese's cornerstone to what he subsequently built and something he learnt from Saints past, putting a stop to the politics. Cortese's model for the club is very different to others, where organic growth of the youth will be the foundation of the clubs future. Add into that a well placed dollop of finances and you have what you see before you. With the youth side getting equal or greater emphasis and finances from the very start, for me this is a Carlsberg moment.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Some interesting, sensible thought provoking and welcome posts on this thread. One thing I know.....

There has been more intrigue, skullduggery, cock ups and mayhem at SFC in the 21st C, than the who previous century put together and that is saying something. And the trouble is no one knows the full 100%.

[The9]

Maybe Cortese looked at the Barcelona model and thought "that's sh!t, I'm gonna go down the tried and tested Rupert relegation route"

 

As the Barcelona model includes fan ownership, an elected club president, and getting £200m into debt, I'd be surprised if the Barcelona model featured too heavily. Though they were also sponsorless by choice until recently...

[Trader]

All this comparison of Cortese and Lowe is b*ll*x. Virtually every chairman up and down the country, and probably abroad wants to develop youth, sports science etc.

 

Cortese would never in a million years make some of the lunatic decisions Lowe did.

 

To be fair, he quite often comes up with lunatic decisions of his very own.

[TopGun]

To be fair, he quite often comes up with lunatic decisions of his very own.

 

I prefer to call them unique rather than lunatic.

[Foxstone]

As the Barcelona model includes fan ownership, an elected club president, and getting £200m into debt, I'd be surprised if the Barcelona model featured too heavily. Though they were also sponsorless by choice until recently...

 

I thought that was the "Chorley Model"