Southampton v Liverpool (Cruise Wars)

[exit2]

The UK Cruise Port Alliance is urging everyone connected with Southampton to sign-up and show the strength of feeling out there about Liverpool's plans and oppose it

 

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/ukcpa

Edited 17 August, 2011 by exit2

[JackanorySFC]

As a proud Sotonion I signed it, hate the thought of those dirty scousers getting public help to take business away from our City that's struggling enough as it is - maybe if we had an inbred "victim mentality" we would kick up for of a fuss about it!

[Sour Mash]

Couldn't care less

 

You should do. Could have a massive effect on the City of Southampton.

[pap]

As a proud Sotonion I signed it, hate the thought of those dirty scousers getting public help to take business away from our City that's struggling enough as it is - maybe if we had an inbred "victim mentality" we would kick up for of a fuss about it!

 

You may not have a victim mentality, but judging from this post, I'd get the inbreeding thing checked out right away.

[swannymere]

Signed and posted on FB and Twitter

[tony13579]

Couldn't care less

there are 4? cruise terminals some weekends 9 ships turn around restocking food through this port. The ships carry between 1000 & 3000 passengers each all needing coaches taxis or parking. then there is the Carnival cruise HQ next to Ikea, and loads of them stay at the hotels the night before they sail and eat out in below bar.

 

That is real income for a lot of people.

[Golden Balls]

My dad is a cabbie and would lose a hell of a lot of money if this happens.

[Golden Balls]

You realise you can sign it multiple times with made up email addresses?

[rooney]

Goodness me, they will want the Embassy and Empress of India to be transferred from Poole Quay next.

[RedArmy]

You should do. Could have a massive effect on the City of Southampton.

The city is a fcking sh1thole right now anyway, how much worse could it get?

[Jonnyboy]

The city is a fcking sh1thole right now anyway, how much worse could it get?

 

[Essruu]

The city is a fcking sh1thole right now anyway, how much worse could it get?

 

D i c k

[Give it to Ron]

Isn't Southampton the only place in the country that has 4 tides a day?

One reason why we get so many container ships and the docks are so heavily utilised.

[Huffton]

P+O will soon change their mind when they turn up one morning and find the Oriana up on bricks with her props missing...

[Guan 2.0]

The city is a fcking sh1thole right now anyway, how much worse could it get?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14547088

 

"And, crucially, there was nothing to look at - nothing to even slightly tempt the eye. The new landscape wasn't concerned about the visual. Or if it was, the visual was only important inside in the atrium where the escalators led to the food court.

 

All you could see was a seemingly endless straggle of gigantic, windswept surface car parks, multi-storey car parks clad in brick and given pitched roofs in case anyone thought they were modern, huge windowless sheds. One with a giant sign on reading "LEISURE WORLD"."

 

 

Owen Hatherley (born 24 July 1981 in Southampton, UK) is a British writer and journalist based in London who writes primarily on architecture, politics and culture.

 

He would appear to agree with you.

[Mattio]

I'm quite proud of Southampton having lived in quite a few other cities it's one of the better I've stayed in, the docks are one of the main reasons for any redevelopment past and future and are what make Southampton famous (other than SFC ) so its a massive deal to all those doubters...

[exit2]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/9215866.Ports_unite_to_fight_Liverpool_s_cruise_terminal_plans/

[pap]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14547088

 

"And, crucially, there was nothing to look at - nothing to even slightly tempt the eye. The new landscape wasn't concerned about the visual. Or if it was, the visual was only important inside in the atrium where the escalators led to the food court.

 

All you could see was a seemingly endless straggle of gigantic, windswept surface car parks, multi-storey car parks clad in brick and given pitched roofs in case anyone thought they were modern, huge windowless sheds. One with a giant sign on reading "LEISURE WORLD"."

 

 

Owen Hatherley (born 24 July 1981 in Southampton, UK) is a British writer and journalist based in London who writes primarily on architecture, politics and culture.

 

He would appear to agree with you.

 

My dad (who sometimes posts on here) has always moaned about Southampton not having a skyline.

 

And I'd agree with the sentiments about the Leisure World area. An out-of-town retail park in the middle of the city centre.

 

All the worst bits of Americana transplanted into the heart of the city.

[FloridaMarlin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14547088

 

"And, crucially, there was nothing to look at - nothing to even slightly tempt the eye. The new landscape wasn't concerned about the visual. Or if it was, the visual was only important inside in the atrium where the escalators led to the food court.

 

All you could see was a seemingly endless straggle of gigantic, windswept surface car parks, multi-storey car parks clad in brick and given pitched roofs in case anyone thought they were modern, huge windowless sheds. One with a giant sign on reading "LEISURE WORLD"."

 

 

Owen Hatherley (born 24 July 1981 in Southampton, UK) is a British writer and journalist based in London who writes primarily on architecture, politics and culture.

 

He would appear to agree with you.

 

And of course, Liverpool and the approach via the Mersey is up there with Sydney, San Francisco and New York as dramatic harbours.

 

Cranes, sheds and car parks are what you might exepct to find in a WORKING port. I presume he was also asleep when his ship passed up through the Solent and up Southampton Water, with the verdant New Forest on one side and Royal Victoria hospital chapel on the other.

 

Crucial to this might yet be the release of information on the Hillsbrough disaster.

 

Hopefully the current government will not feel obliged to compensate Liverpool for any shortcomings of the Thatcher government in the aftermath of Hillsbrough, in a desperate attempt to win votes in an area where they don't get any.

[pap]

And of course, Liverpool and the approach via the Mersey is up there with Sydney, San Francisco and New York as dramatic harbours.

 

Cranes, sheds and car parks are what you might exepct to find in a WORKING port. I presume he was also asleep when his ship passed up through the Solent and up Southampton Water, with the verdant New Forest on one side and Royal Victoria hospital chapel on the other.

 

Crucial to this might yet be the release of information on the Hillsbrough disaster.

 

Hopefully the current government will not feel obliged to compensate Liverpool for any shortcomings of the Thatcher government in the aftermath of Hillsbrough, in a desperate attempt to win votes in an area where they don't get any.

 

Liverpool is a working port. The docks extend all the way to Seaforth and over the water into Birkenhead. It does over 33 million tonnes of cargo per year.

 

The release of the Hillsborough documents is irrelevant. The Tories have swept into Liverpool before ( Heseltine after the 1981 riots ). Hasn't helped them in the slightest.

 

Still, why let facts get in the way of crass stereotypes?

[Guan 2.0]

Liverpool is a working port. The docks extend all the way to Seaforth and over the water into Birkenhead. It does over 33 million tonnes of cargo per year.

 

The release of the Hillsborough documents is irrelevant. The Tories have swept into Liverpool before ( Heseltine after the 1981 riots ). Hasn't helped them in the slightest.

 

Still, why let facts get in the way of crass stereotypes?

 

Or mention the Liverpool Skyline over the Mersey:

 

[TopGun]

As a proud Sotonion I signed it, hate the thought of those dirty scousers getting public help to take business away from our City that's struggling enough as it is - maybe if we had an inbred "victim mentality" we would kick up for of a fuss about it!

 

Incredibly stupid post.

 

One point that is worth mentioning also is that people seem to be under the impression that Liverpool are trying to get their plan funded by the government. In fact the Port of Liverpool is owned by the Peel Group http://www.peel.co.uk who have about £6bn in UK assets and employ 5,000 people. It is their plan and like any other property group they are looking to tap into UK and EU grants to accelerate investment. Peel are also incredibly ambitious. Southampton needs to up its game to stop a Liverpool cruise port development occurring with good plans of its own that will keep major players like Carnival and P&O onside.

[spyinthesky]

Liverpool is a great place (weather not so good tho') but wonder how Southampton would look if it was enhanced by a fraction of the £2.5billion in EU and UK Govt aid given to Merseyside in the past 10 years

[Wade Garrett]

'The terminal was funded entirely by grants from the European Union and the UK taxpayer. The money was given on the strict condition that it must not operate turnaround cruises, so the terminal couldn’t unfairly take business from private sector competitors.

Yet less than two years after it was opened Liverpool Council was applying to have the condition removed. Now, just 18 months after that application was resoundingly rejected, the council is back again with the same request.'

 

Bit of a no-brainer. Totally unfair on Southampton and other ports.

 

Petition signed.

[Wade Garrett]

Incredibly stupid post.

 

One point that is worth mentioning also is that people seem to be under the impression that Liverpool are trying to get their plan funded by the government. In fact the Port of Liverpool is owned by the Peel Group http://www.peel.co.uk who have about £6bn in UK assets and employ 5,000 people. It is their plan and like any other property group they are looking to tap into UK and EU grants to accelerate investment. Peel are also incredibly ambitious. Southampton needs to up its game to stop a Liverpool cruise port development occurring with good plans of its own that will keep major players like Carnival and P&O onside.

 

 

If the Peel group used its own money for the cruise facility they could have gone for whatever business was up for grabs. Unfortunately for them, they took grants under very strict conditions. Their decision, and tough luck.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Signed. If you support the football team you should support the people that work there.

[exit2]

'The terminal was funded entirely by grants from the European Union and the UK taxpayer. The money was given on the strict condition that it must not operate turnaround cruises, so the terminal couldn’t unfairly take business from private sector competitors.

Yet less than two years after it was opened Liverpool Council was applying to have the condition removed. Now, just 18 months after that application was resoundingly rejected, the council is back again with the same request.'

 

Bit of a no-brainer. Totally unfair on Southampton and other ports.

 

Petition signed.

 

Nail on head!!

[sebastian firefly]

Or mention the Liverpool Skyline over the Mersey:

 

 

testament to luftwaffe ineficiency if you ask me

[TopGun]

If the Peel group used its own money for the cruise facility they could have gone for whatever business was up for grabs. Unfortunately for them, they took grants under very strict conditions. Their decision, and tough luck.

 

Peel didn't take the grant money back then as they didn't own the Port of Liverpool at that point having purchased it since. They will attempt to overturn the conditions as they have done successfully on very many other occasions. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying that is what they will look to do. I know how Peel works having worked with them first hand.

 

Peel has incredible clout in the north west. One 30-year £40bn scheme they are proposing is called Wirral Waters, close to Liverpool. It won planning consent earlier this year and promises thousands of long term jobs and huge investment. They will use the same argument with local and national politicians to state their case with the Port of Liverpool.

Edited 26 August, 2011 by TopGun

[rocknrollman no2]

Well for what its worth i signed the petition.

The cruise industry is worth millions and i for one would like to see it kept in Southampton,who havent taken a penny in government grants,yet have managed to draw in an industry which employs thousands of people and brings in a lot of tourists to our home town.

Im sick of hearing about Liverpool and how great everyone thinks it is.

Southampton has proved itself number one for cruises.

End of.

[View From The Top]

It won't go to Liverpool, too far from London.

 

My lot, none of whom are Sotonians, love Southampton and love the walk over the Itchen Bridge when all the ships are in, looks great.

 

I've not lived in Soton for over 20 years and having work in Stoke, Birmingham and the Black Country you guys should be very grateful for what you've got.

[spyinthesky]

Peel didn't take the grant money back then as they didn't own the Port of Liverpool at that point having purchased it since. They will attempt to overturn the conditions as they have done successfully on very many other occasions. I'm not saying it's right, but I'm saying that is what they will look to do. I know how Peel works having worked with them first hand.

 

Peel has incredible clout in the north west. One 30-year £40bn scheme they are proposing is called Wirral Waters, close to Liverpool. It won planning consent earlier this year and promises thousands of long term jobs and huge investment. They will use the same argument with local and national politicians to state their case with the Port of Liverpool.

 

Peel took over the old Mersey Docks Company in 2005 having acquired all their shares from previous owners.

 

The announcement of the £17m grant aid for creartion of a £19m cruise liner facility came in May of that year so Liverpool Council was pursuing the grant application.

 

By all accounts the grant aid terms were quite specific. Only 'calling cruises' only so as not to compete with rival UK ports who had invested their own money in turnround facilities.

 

Within months Liverpool council was lobbying for a change of use but the labour Govt turned it down

 

Now the Tories seem keen to allow this which is odd bearing in mind their 'free market' policies

 

I am sure this is pure speculation but the Chancellor, George Osborne, represents a nearby constituency and thereis some suggestion that the owner of Peel Ports is a financial supporter of the Tory party. Make of this what you will.

[Joesaint]

Signed and getting my family to do it as well. Come on fair competition please Liverpool already get enought state aid/re-development funding and then say how much better it is.

 

I love Southampton and the frinds I have here, alot of money comes from the cruse industry. Competition is good but only when fair.

 

COYS

[Saintandy666]

Why isn't this on the government petition site?

[Guan 2.0]

t's funny, there wasn't this much support for dibden bay from certain sections in Hampshire, despite the fact that a) ABP owned it, and b) it was bought in the 60's with the sole intention of development.

 

The company points out that Dibden Bay was bought by its nationalised predecessor, the British Transport Docks Board, in 1967 with the express purpose of providing reserve dock capacity for Southampton, and the site itself is not forest but land that has been reclaimed from Southampton Water over several decades. It says the new port will provide 1,700 permanent jobs, quite apart from hundreds more jobs stemming from the construction

 

I hope Liverpool gets the Cruise work (with 20 year repayment plan for the grants), and Southampton council wakes up to the fact that Southampton is a ****hole, they need to improve the city, attract new investement, and not just rely on the fact that southampton is near somewhere nice (The New Forest).

[TopGun]

Peel took over the old Mersey Docks Company in 2005 having acquired all their shares from previous owners.

 

The announcement of the £17m grant aid for creartion of a £19m cruise liner facility came in May of that year so Liverpool Council was pursuing the grant application.

 

By all accounts the grant aid terms were quite specific. Only 'calling cruises' only so as not to compete with rival UK ports who had invested their own money in turnround facilities.

 

Within months Liverpool council was lobbying for a change of use but the labour Govt turned it down

 

Now the Tories seem keen to allow this which is odd bearing in mind their 'free market' policies

 

I am sure this is pure speculation but the Chancellor, George Osborne, represents a nearby constituency and thereis some suggestion that the owner of Peel Ports is a financial supporter of the Tory party. Make of this what you will.

 

Believe me, no part of the Peel Group is a financial supporter to any political party. I am in the know!

[spyinthesky]

But what about John Whittaker himself?

[TopGun]

If Whittaker was making donations it should be revealed in party donation lists. However I doubt he is, as he is not interested in politics. He is another tax exile, lives on the Isle of Man and is only allowed in the UK about half the days a year. He generally flies in his chopper from Man to Barton Aerodrome near the Trafford Centre, where Peel is headquartered.

[Viking Warrior]

Signed

 

Im all for supporting my home city

[Golden Balls]

Nearly half way there. So what happen when you get to 5000?

[spyinthesky]

If Whittaker was making donations it should be revealed in party donation lists. However I doubt he is, as he is not interested in politics. He is another tax exile, lives on the Isle of Man and is only allowed in the UK about half the days a year. He generally flies in his chopper from Man to Barton Aerodrome near the Trafford Centre, where Peel is headquartered.

 

TG

 

Quite interested in JW

Apparently he nearly took holy orders and here he is now a multi millionaire

Seems to have the midas touch

It is right that Peel is a very demanding company to work for?

[TopGun]

TG

 

Quite interested in JW

Apparently he nearly took holy orders and here he is now a multi millionaire

Seems to have the midas touch

It is right that Peel is a very demanding company to work for?

 

Sunday Times Rich List had him valued at £2bn last time out although I suspect there's a lot of guesswork involved there. JW is extremely reclusive and doesn't do media interviews. He is the majority shareholder in Peel Group which is thought to have assets of about £6bn. JW started the company in the late 1970s by buying a single redundant mill in Lancashire.

 

Peel Group is split into a number of top-down divisions. They include Peel Ports, Airports, Environment, Energy, Development and Property. Each division is certainly expected to outperform the marketplace. Marquee projects include the Trafford Centre, MediaCity UK, Wirral Waters, Scout Moor Wind Farm, Port Warrington to name a few. There are about 40 large scale projects going on at Peel at the moment.

[spyinthesky]

Didnt peel also buy into one of the London Film studios?

[TopGun]

Yes, very recently bought majority shareholding in Pinewood.

[spyinthesky]

Oh yes remember this now

Apparently there was a bit of an outcry at the suggestion they were buying a couple of London Film studios in order to transfer the work to 'Media City' at Salford Quays (owned by Peel) where they have already enticed the BBC out of Shepherds Bush, and then try to sell the film lots for housing

 

Some suggestion they could get round the Green belt issues in Herts (connections somewhere?) and do very well out of the deal

 

Peel certainly seem to be operators

 

Read somewhere that one of their Chief Execs went on record to say that 'You have to be prepared to dance with the devil' when contemplating doing a deal with Peel

[Wade Garrett]

t's funny, there wasn't this much support for dibden bay from certain sections in Hampshire, despite the fact that a) ABP owned it, and b) it was bought in the 60's with the sole intention of development.

 

The company points out that Dibden Bay was bought by its nationalised predecessor, the British Transport Docks Board, in 1967 with the express purpose of providing reserve dock capacity for Southampton, and the site itself is not forest but land that has been reclaimed from Southampton Water over several decades. It says the new port will provide 1,700 permanent jobs, quite apart from hundreds more jobs stemming from the construction

 

I hope Liverpool gets the Cruise work (with 20 year repayment plan for the grants), and Southampton council wakes up to the fact that Southampton is a ****hole, they need to improve the city, attract new investement, and not just rely on the fact that southampton is near somewhere nice (The New Forest).

 

Southampton has attracted considerable investment in its port and cruise businesses over the last few years. Carnival have set up a massive office in the City, and the container port was taken over a few years ago by middle-eastern investors, and is shortly to be extended. We didn't get grants, and the investment has been funded privately. I think you are a bit ignorant of the facts.

[pap]

Southampton has attracted considerable investment in its port and cruise businesses over the last few years. Carnival have set up a massive office in the City, and the container port was taken over a few years ago by middle-eastern investors, and is shortly to be extended. We didn't get grants, and the investment has been funded privately. I think you are a bit ignorant of the facts.

 

Still, that doesn't really mean there is anything more to see or do in Southampton, does it?

 

Alright, Liverpool is not New York - but its replete with visitor attractions.

 

I suspect that Southampton City Council's main beef with these plans has nothing to do with public money, and everything to do with the fact that if Liverpool was allowed full turnaround, Southampton will be comprehensively beaten from a neutral's point of view.

[TopGun]

Oh yes remember this now

Apparently there was a bit of an outcry at the suggestion they were buying a couple of London Film studios in order to transfer the work to 'Media City' at Salford Quays (owned by Peel) where they have already enticed the BBC out of Shepherds Bush, and then try to sell the film lots for housing

 

Some suggestion they could get round the Green belt issues in Herts (connections somewhere?) and do very well out of the deal

 

Peel certainly seem to be operators

 

Read somewhere that one of their Chief Execs went on record to say that 'You have to be prepared to dance with the devil' when contemplating doing a deal with Peel

 

There's no doubt that Peel sees Pinewood as complementary to MediaCity, a northern and southern pairing. As well as BBC moving to MediaCity at the moment Granada also announced that they were moving in recently. The new Corrie set that is being built is on the opposite side of the Manchester Ship Canal (also Peel owned) to MediaCity and is being connected by a new footbridge.

[dune]

Or mention the Liverpool Skyline over the Mersey:

 

 

It's amazing how an utter sh/thole can look ok from a distance.

[spyinthesky]

Pap

Liverpool is a great place to visit, provided you stay within the central area. Beyond this is not so pleasant

 

However much of the recent investment for improvements has come from Europe (Objective One) and the NWDA. Between them billions of pounds has been poured in the area to help build and maintain museums, provide a conference centre, new roads, the cruise terminal, a ferry terminal, etc etc.

 

Quite a bit has been wasted as well

 

Oh and approx £7m was given to Liverpool FC to develop a new stadium at Stanley Park

 

This has yet to happen although there seems to be a campaign not to pay the money back as, apparently, it's not the fault of LFC that they cant afford to progress the stadium

 

You may argue that all this grant aid money is fair enough

 

However if only a small proportion of this money had been available down here how much more attractive the city and the waterfront would be.

 

In truth however the 'ease to the eye' is of little consequence to cruise ship company's otherwise why would Dover, Harwich and Tilbury and, arguably Southampton, have made their mark as cruise turnround ports.

 

The real argument here is Liverpool being given a massive amount of free money to be spent for a specific purpose (ie calling cruises only) and then seeking to change the rules more or less immediately

 

As has been said by many people, if Liverpool was so confident of success let them finance the deal themselves then everyone is playing off a level playing field.

 

Of course this wont happen and, to be fair, there are some people in Liverpool questioning this ongoing reliance on grant aid for 'prestigious' projects when there are significant social issues within the city to resolve.