Harsh sentences for the looters/rioters?

[tony13579]

Oh an one other thing, where are all of these prison places coming from!

They are going to let out some violent thugs who committed 200+ crimes

[trousers]

Anderson Fernandes, 22, was warned by a judge at Manchester Magistrates' Court that he may face jail after he admitted stealing two scoops of ice cream. He will be sentenced next week.

 

Nicolas Robinson, 23, of Borough, south-east London, was jailed for six months for stealing a £3.50 case of water from Lidl supermarket

 

Mother-of-two Ursula Nevin, from Manchester, was jailed for five months for receiving a pair of shorts given to her after they had been looted from a city centre store.

 

 

mmmmm, now they're stupid, but a jail term for those crimes? I would've thought 2 years community service would've been better in these 3 cases. Oh an one other thing, where are all of these prison places coming from!

 

Put 3 in a cell together.

[tony13579]

and another thing...

what sentence was passed to Ian Tomlinson's killer and how fast was he bought to justice

[Mmm Donuts]

Let's take our lead from the system in America shall we? it works really well I hear.....

[thesaint sfc]

It has to be done just to show the other scum that it won't be tolerated. In 3 or 4 years time when tensions are running high again and the idiots are just coming out of prison for this - maybe it will make others wonder if its worth it.

[mickn]

To me, the "proportionality" is not the key consideration here. The important thing is to make it absolutely clear to people what the punishment/deterent is upfront. People can then decide whether they want to commit the crime in the first place.

 

If people are "inciting riots" whilst ignorant of the penal consequences then the governement should start a national advertising campaign to raise awareness.

 

How many people would have "incited riots" if they knew, in no uncertain terms, that the punishment was having their penis chopped off?

 

People need to have an element of fear in doing wrong. I think we've gradually lost that fear factor over the last 50 years.

 

How about we try and re-educate people to realise they have a conscience and it's morally wrong to behave like that rather than being scared they might be caught? I suppose that idea is too naive

[aintforever]

Some of the sentences have been barmy when compared to what rapists etc get. 4 years for posting on facebook is just plain wrong.

 

It's amazing how swift and harsh the penalties are considering how long it took to get some MPs to trial and how soft they were treated.

[tony13579]

it bodes well for a decent sentence when Redknapp faces “an unlimited” jail sentence if he is convicted of “cheating the

public revenue” out of £40000

[Sour Mash]

Anderson Fernandes, 22, was warned by a judge at Manchester Magistrates' Court that he may face jail after he admitted stealing two scoops of ice cream. He will be sentenced next week.

 

Nicolas Robinson, 23, of Borough, south-east London, was jailed for six months for stealing a £3.50 case of water from Lidl supermarket

 

Mother-of-two Ursula Nevin, from Manchester, was jailed for five months for receiving a pair of shorts given to her after they had been looted from a city centre store.

 

 

mmmmm, now they're stupid, but a jail term for those crimes? I would've thought 2 years community service would've been better in these 3 cases. Oh an one other thing, where are all of these prison places coming from!

 

That is over the top!

[CB Saint]

Some of the sentences have been barmy when compared to what rapists etc get. 4 years for posting on facebook is just plain wrong.

 

It's amazing how swift and harsh the penalties are considering how long it took to get some MPs to trial and how soft they were treated.

 

Thats becausethe rapists are getting too lenient a sentance in my opinion - give them a minimum of 12 years and then you get some proportionality back into the system. With regards to swift justice, it is about time.

[Mmm Donuts]

There is a lot of money invested into prisons and rightly so, but there doesn't seem to be much invested into community service or restorative justice atm. I'm sure watching people put things back together in these communities, and all communities, would be radical.

[trousers]

How about we try and re-educate people to realise they have a conscience and it's morally wrong to behave like that rather than being scared they might be caught? I suppose that idea is too naive

 

Yep, agree with that. Significant deterents + education works together as a solution for me.

[trousers]

Some of the sentences have been barmy when compared to what rapists etc get.

 

If rapists got 40 years + castration, would some of the looting sentences seem so harsh? It's all relative.

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14559294

 

PM defends 'tough' riot sentences handed out by courts

 

Prime Minister David Cameron has defended courts for handing out tough sentences for those involved in the riots across England.

Some MPs and campaigners say some sentences dealt to the 1,277 people who have appeared in court are too harsh.

On Tuesday two men were jailed for four years for using Facebook to incite riots. One of them, Jordan Blackshaw, 21, is to appeal against his sentence.

But the PM said it was good that the courts were sending a "tough message".

Speaking in Warrington, he said: "It's up to the courts to make decisions about sentencing, but they've decided to send a tough message and it's very good that the courts feel able to do that."

[saintjay77]

I think the punishments should be harsh for those involved but there have been many that seem to have got slapped wrists for actually breaking in an nicking stuff while some idiots mouthed off on the Internet and got much stronger punishments.

 

Think some kind of guidelines should of been rolled out across the uk for courts to treat each case the same as it would be treated elsewhere.

 

The worst of it was a bunch of scroat's taking advantage of a situation cause they think it's clever and because it's less hard work than actually getting a job and earning their way.

 

Harsh punishments and less of a benefit society might make people think working for a living is the easy way out and be more inclined to do it.

[JRM]

I think some of the sentencing is harsh, but for once it is nice to see it effecting other crimes other than football fans who always seem to be on the receiving end of "deterrant" sentencing. Just look at the saints fans who were getting long terms for shaking a fence.

[Seaford Saint]

Where would the relevance be to a sentance for murder? One fellow recently sentenced got something like 7 years (IIRC) so is his punishment too lenient then? As Dune says, there is a need for a clear message to be sent out. The question is, without severe action, how do we do it?

 

20/20 comments that a democracy should not be able to change a law at will. Sadly it's a Utopian notion becuse Governments can, and will, change laws if necessary. In times of turmoil (war, insurrection) they will have to act quickly and make some stark decisions. It's the very fact that our democracy doesn't make these changes that often which shows we still are a great country and the majority of us are decent and law abiding!

 

Hi ESB, I am a little concerned about this. 5 months in prison for receiving a pair of stolen trousers? Wo made the decision? Who was it discussed with? Was it discussed in parliament with our elected representatives? I do believe the scum that did this have badly let the country down and need to be punished.

 

Who is it that can influence our judicial system like that?

[tony13579]

Bill Bratton aparrently!

[Sour Mash]

Anderson Fernandes, 22, was warned by a judge at Manchester Magistrates' Court that he may face jail after he admitted stealing two scoops of ice cream. He will be sentenced next week.

 

Nicolas Robinson, 23, of Borough, south-east London, was jailed for six months for stealing a £3.50 case of water from Lidl supermarket

 

Mother-of-two Ursula Nevin, from Manchester, was jailed for five months for receiving a pair of shorts given to her after they had been looted from a city centre store.

 

 

mmmmm, now they're stupid, but a jail term for those crimes? I would've thought 2 years community service would've been better in these 3 cases. Oh an one other thing, where are all of these prison places coming from!

 

These look even more harsh when you read how you can get away with rioting and not having to go to prison http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23979034-footballers-offer-frees-riot-suspect.do

[Smirking_Saint]

This is the reason why the Riots happened IMO, because of how lenient and liberal we have become. The police were pretty much toothless through all of this, a consequence of public outcry to their actions in attempting to quell burgeoning tensions that could potentially end in something far more serious, such as that seen in London a few weeks back.

 

Potentially there could have been far more deaths in the lawlessness tht was so utterly apparant, created IMO by a society that no longer is scared of the law and of the police, that has been spoon fed and brought up within a liberal framework, within which hardwork is rarely rewarded and all a slob culture is. Christ, even with all of the HSE and rediculous sueing culture kids these days are not able to spot danger etc, as they are so protected from things so small.

 

I agree with the tough sentancing, after all, I didn't leave Soton or the comfort of my disgust whilst viewing the shocking scenes on BBC news in order to run out and have some 'fun' burning buildings, cars and livelihoods whilst running away with anything I could get my hands on. How did they know that the buildings were unnoccupied ?? These people chose to become involved, even though they were warned publically.

 

They deserve what they get, but the clean up involves a lot more then broken glass and tough sentances, it also involves removing the nanny state as it stands.

Edited 17 August, 2011 by Smirking_Saint
Jonnyboys english coursework

[Jonnyboy]

F*ck me, there were peple on here making glib jokey remarks about joining the imaginary riot about to happen in Southampton, and people would be happy for the pigs to hunt them down and jail thwm for 4 years! F*ckin police state w8nkers.

[Jonnyboy]

This is the reason why the Riots happened IMO, because of how lenient and liberal we have become. The police were pretty much toothless through all of this, a consequence of public outcry to their actions in attempting to quell burgeoning tensions that could potentially end in something far more serious, such as that seen in London a few weeks back.

 

Potentially there could have been far more deaths in the lawlessness tht was so utterly apparant, created IMO by a society that no longer is scared of the law and of the police, that has been spoon fed and brought up within a liberal framework, within which hardwork is rarely awarded and all a slob culture is. Christ, even with all of the HSE and rediculous sueing culture kids these days are not able to spot danger etc, as they are so protected from things so small.

 

I agree with the tough sentancing, after all, I didn't leave Soton or the comfort of my disgust whilst viewing the shocking scenes on BBC news in order to run out and have some 'fun' burning buildings, cars and livelihoods whilst running away with anything I could get my hands on. How did they know that the buildings were unnoccupied ?? These people chose to become involved, even though they were warned publically.

 

They deserve what they get, but the clean up involves a lot more then broken glass and tough sentances, it also involves removing the nanny state as it stands.

 

Thought you had a decent job.

[Jonnyboy]

and another thing...

what sentence was passed to Ian Tomlinson's killer and how fast was he bought to justice

 

I see today they've let off most of the police in the phone hacking scandal. Just squeezed that one in at the end of the news. No doubt the Murdochs and NI will be found quietly innocent at a later date. And they wonder why people riot.

[Hatch]

it bodes well for a decent sentence when Redknapp faces “an unlimited” jail sentence if he is convicted of “cheating the

public revenue” out of £40000

 

lol, this has got me quite excited ..

[Smirking_Saint]

Thought you had a decent job.

 

Thanks jonny

 

Love you

[Blue_Arsed_Fly]

I see today they've let off most of the police in the phone hacking scandal. Just squeezed that one in at the end of the news. No doubt the Murdochs and NI will be found quietly innocent at a later date. And they wonder why people riot.

 

So you honestly think 99.9999 of the London rioters were looting in protest?????

 

Doubt 99.99999% of them could even spell polyticks (sic).

[Wade Garrett]

Shock horror we agree on something...this can't be right. In my view a democracy should not need to change its legal system at will. Its what we have done and I clearly think and thought that these looters should have got punished.

 

Punishment is not fitting the crime

 

It's judges giving out the sentences, they give punishments as they see fit. I have zero sympathy for any of the pondlife getting sent down.

 

One of our society's problem's is that that people aren't scared of the law because of the pathetic punishments that have been handed out. This is a step in the right direction in stamping out the scum in our society.

[Wade Garrett]

The average cost of a prison place in 2002 was £38753 per year

My understanding is that 3000 people will face various charges. If the majority get 2-4 years thats 9000 prison years @ 38753 =£116,25900

thats about 10 secondary schools,

or 21,000 people recieving an hour a day home help for a year

 

To a first time offender, a 3 week sentence might/probobly will, put them into thier place. the other 3 years is £10,000 of wasted money

 

Might I suggest then, that prison life should become more spartan and less of a burden on the Chancellor's wallet.

[Wade Garrett]

How about we try and re-educate people to realise they have a conscience and it's morally wrong to behave like that rather than being scared they might be caught? I suppose that idea is too naive

 

I think you're the naive one.

[Hatch]

Those two facebook idiots are in the right place, may not have deserved 4 years for the facebook thing on it's own, but if you tally up all the stuff they have got away with then 4 years is probably not enough.

 

This is all based purely on the fact that they look like a couple of thieving c&8ts.

[Special K]

The sentences are over the top, which is bloody stupid as the courts will find themselves tied up with a load of appeals, more likely than not funded by the public purse. Better to put them to work for the benefit of the society they chose to damage. Make them wear garish fluorescent overalls and clean the streets and look after the community facilities for 5 days a week for 6 months. Maybe then they will learn to value something they have looked after and will be one of the ones who seeks to protect that when the next bunch of pikes come along.

[Dellman]

The tough sentences would be in order if the cheating MPs had been treated similarly but they were treated with kid gloves, only about 3 ened in clink and they had cheated ££££££££££££thousands

[eurosaint]

All of the comments re. long sentences should be considered as half of what is reported !

ie. the chavs who got 6 months will be out in 3 maximum !

They can whine as much as they like and the lefties will highlight the injustice etc. but compared to most countries around the world we are weak and liberal in the extreme !

[MorningtonCrescent]

All of the comments re. long sentences should be considered as half of what is reported !

ie. the chavs who got 6 months will be out in 3 maximum !

They can whine as much as they like and the lefties will highlight the injustice etc. but compared to most countries around the world we are weak and liberal in the extreme !

 

This ;-)

[Minty]

This ;-)

 

Careful - i know you've not posted for a bit, but you don't want to overdo it.

[mickn]

It's judges giving out the sentences, they give punishments as they see fit. I have zero sympathy for any of the pondlife getting sent down.

 

One of our society's problem's is that that people aren't scared of the law because of the pathetic punishments that have been handed out. This is a step in the right direction in stamping out the scum in our society.

 

Of course it is because prison really works doesn't it

[Gingeletiss]

It's judges giving out the sentences, they give punishments as they see fit. I have zero sympathy for any of the pondlife getting sent down.

 

One of our society's problem's is that that people aren't scared of the law because of the pathetic punishments that have been handed out. This is a step in the right direction in stamping out the scum in our society.

 

This

[Gingeletiss]

Might I suggest then, that prison life should become more spartan and less of a burden on the Chancellor's wallet.

 

and this

[Gingeletiss]

Those two facebook idiots are in the right place, may not have deserved 4 years for the facebook thing on it's own, but if you tally up all the stuff they have got away with then 4 years is probably not enough.

 

This is all based purely on the fact that they look like a couple of thieving c&8ts.

 

They were gang leaders, allegedly!

[Gingeletiss]

Of course it is because prison really works doesn't it

 

Well, it would if it was a lot tougher, no leisure facilities, and made to work ten hours a day.

[Verbal]

The wild inconsistency of sentencing will clog up the courts for months and years to come, as appeals are launched en masse. All of which is a lucrative opportunity for lawyers, and it'll cost taxpayers an absolute fortune in legal aid fees.

[Saintandy666]

It is massive inconsistency. It would do much better for a lot of the people who are being sent to jail for months(i.e the guy who stole £3.50 worth of water jailed for 6 months) were just put on community service in the areas they destroyed.

 

As for cutting benefits to these people, that will be a massive fail.

 

Here's a post a wrote on it the other day.

 

Knee Jerk reactions help nothing; especially in a situation as complex as this.

The riots that engulfed the UK have been the lead topic of conversation for many around this country and even the world for a week or so now. As such I have been able to eavesdrop in or read many an opinion as to what caused the unrest and what should be done about it.

 

The opinions have ranged:

 

‘What these kids need a bit of discipline. Give them a hit and reinstate National Service!’

 

‘The problems clearly relate to a lack of education on the affected estates. Getting in the communities to bring them back into society post-riot is a must’

 

My opinion leans much more towards the latter than the former. While what happened can not be condoned, we must as a nation get the bottom of explaining why? Why did we produce so many who will quite willingly given the opportunity burn and trash their communities?

 

For me the people that took part in the unrest have no stake in society, in fact I would say they have almost dropped out of common society in its entirety. They are brought up on estates where few positive influences exist and opportunities are often rare. As such, they inevitably fall into crime as a way of life and this has been going on for generations.

 

I’m not going to party politicise this, it has been a failure by both Labour and Tories to get to grips with the growing underclass in the UK. However, intervention is now a must or the scenes that shocked us all in the last week will be repeated again and again.

 

Of course the short term solutions involve sending those who are guilty of crimes to prison or community service programmes.(I favour the latter, make them rebuild what they destroyed.) They must repay their debt to society. However, in a few years when the dust has settled and those who were serving sentences are out, we must help these people re-integrate into society or once again they will end up on the streets and nothing will have been solved.

 

And now I can come to the actual point of what I wanted to get across. Among the ‘solutions’ proposed to solve the issues that have occurred is stripping rioters of their benefits. This has been mooted at by the Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, as well as other senior members of the government. In fact, as I write a petition on the governments petition website has amassed over 200,000 signatures.

 

So why do I take issue with this proposal? Surely, opponents to me would say, these people deserve that punishment for the way in which they disregarded society. I say, of course they deserve punishment, but normal justice will do.

 

Taking away their benefits might sound good and tough, but then what? You leave a whole bunch of people and their dependants homeless and penniless and once again on the streets. This will no doubt lead to a rise in crime and rioting will no doubt return.

 

What is needed is a full scale review of the underlying causes of why so many people rioted and then a discussion of how to address this issues. What we do not need, is politicians clambering over themselves to sound tough.

 

Knee-jerk reactions are never good in the long term, because they are formulated in the short term and rarely consider the far-reaching consequences.

[Sour Mash]

The wild inconsistency of sentencing will clog up the courts for months and years to come, as appeals are launched en masse. All of which is a lucrative opportunity for lawyers, and it'll cost taxpayers an absolute fortune in legal aid fees.

 

That's what I said at the start of the thread. I am all for strong sentencing, but some of these are just plain stupid.

[CB Saint]

Perhaps the appeal courts will increase one or two sentences- that might make people think twice about launching spurious appeals.

[pap]

The appeals are not going to be spurious though, are they?

 

The sentences are political. Fair enough, if you've done wrong, you've done wrong and you should be punished within the existing sentencing rules. If they want to change the sentencing rules, fair play - but that's another debate and it should go through the proper channels.

 

What's really amusing is that this is the same Government who were advocating a 50% reduction in sentences if the defendants were good enough to spare them the cost of a jury trial.

[dune]

Of course it is because prison really works doesn't it

 

This is just it. Most of them will come out worse than when they went in. It would have been so much more rehabilitative to have to have had community based sentences for petty thefts i.e stealing a bottle of water. Someone got 6 months for this!

[Saintandy666]

This is just it. Most of them will come out worse than when they went in. It would have been so much more rehabilitative to have to have had community based sentences for petty thefts i.e stealing a bottle of water. Someone got 6 months for this!

 

I think I just agreed with you.

[dune]

I think I just agreed with you.

 

I'm always right so you should do it more often.

[Micky]

Just goes to show that a lenient policy doesn't work. Perhaps if she had had the book thrown at her on conviction number one, the other 199 may not have happened. I know I am sailing into controversial waters here, but frankly, I am sick of people in this country taking the p*** and acting as if law is an inconvenience. I am also sick of the civil liberties brigade who start chirpping up every time stand is made against the general lawlessness in this country. Rant over

 

You and me both mate.

 

The country is going to the dogs - riots in the streets and the first consideration appears to be the civil liberties of the rioters - sweet.

 

Had I anything to do with the policing there would have been little need for overstretching the justice and courts system - because I would have shot as many as I could. Courts empty - good business for undertakers and vicars. My rant over too.

[dune]

You and me both mate.

 

The country is going to the dogs - riots in the streets and the first consideration appears to be the civil liberties of the rioters - sweet.

 

Had I anything to do with the policing there would have been little need for overstretching the justice and courts system - because I would have shot as many as I could. Courts empty - good business for undertakers and vicars. My rant over too.

 

Would you prefer to live in Syria, Iran, China or Rhodesia?

 

There has to be a balance and I think we've got it about right. If we get too tough then our democracy is beaten by these people and we'd all suffer just like we've all suffered by measures taken to combat Islamist terrorists.