SuperSAINT Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Unrelated to Rodriguez, I know, but DD is right. Holt IS quicker than Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 How did Grant Holt become the Premier League's 2nd highest English scorer last season (8th overall in the League with 15 league goals)? Not that I like to compare Holt with Lambert (as I think Lambert has more to his game than Holt), but both lack pace. Because I think Holt's MUCH more agile and mobile and still able to take a ball past players, as well as being physically stronger (though as he's 31 now he'll be on his way out soon). Plus he's already proved himself in the Prem - I doubted Rickie last season, and I'm doubting him again, but I just don't know where he's going to find a further improvement on the season just gone. I can see how, say, Sharp can get better, not sure how Lambert will as I think he's as slim and strong as he can get, but he hasn't been taking the ball past people because he's just not that agile. As for "2nd highest English scorer", big deal, it's a global League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 DD is right. Holt IS quicker than Lambert. He may well be quicker, but that isn't what got him his 15 league goals. Holt would be beaten for pace by a large number of Premier League defenders so relies on other attributes, in the same way Lambert does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Holt is a little quicker, but Lambert was far more mobile last season than I'd ever seen him before. He covered a ridiculous amount of ground in the home game to Reading in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 As for "2nd highest English scorer", big deal, it's a global League. I did also say, "8th overall" top scorer in the Premier League. Is that not a big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Just checking we're talking about Billy Sharp here?...didn't see much evidence of the first two from Sharp last season and how many games has Lambert missed for saints through injury the last three seasons? You weren't watching very closely then. Sharp is pretty nippy and makes great runs which Lambert just can't do. Lambert hasn't missed that many matches, but I think we've been pretty lucky with that (along with having some excellent player monitoring equipment apparently), and everyone knows your recovery rate slows significantly as you get older. Sharp's got 3 years' advantage in that particular contest. Also, he's been bought recently to fill a specific role in Adkins' head, whereas Rickie's a legacy player, who has been essential but might not be any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Holt is a little quicker, but Lambert was far more mobile last season than I'd ever seen him before. He covered a ridiculous amount of ground in the home game to Reading in particular. I agree he was excellent against Reading, I said at the time that was his best game for Saints, even though we lost. And yes, more mobile than before, but I just have doubts his best will be enough. Then again, I said the same thing coming into the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I agree he was excellent against Reading, I said at the time that was his best game for Saints, even though we lost. And yes, more mobile than before, but I just have doubts his best will be enough. Then again, I said the same thing coming into the Championship. individually, lambert was like a man possessed against reading simply brilliant there was no way on gods earth would lambert have been remotely able to produce that performance 18 month before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I did also say, "8th overall" top scorer in the Premier League. Is that not a big deal? Evidently Roy Hodgson doesn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel=God-Poyet=Sod Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I honestly don't know how any of you can doubt Rickie after what he has done for us over the last 3 seasons. You don't need pace to score goals and there is much more to his game than just an aerial threat. He has missed a handful of games for us and is looking in peak condition and much fitter. The same doubters will be saying they always knew he would step up if he starts scoring goals for fun next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Crikey.....only our fans could moan about someone who has taken us from L1 to the Prem!!!! Back to Jay Rod.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 individually, lambert was like a man possessed against reading simply brilliant And I think if he does that game in, game out then he'll be a talisman. Can't argue with that, but expecting his very best in every match is rather optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 You weren't watching very closely then. Sharp is pretty nippy and makes great runs which Lambert just can't do. Lambert hasn't missed that many matches, but I think we've been pretty lucky with that (along with having some excellent player monitoring equipment apparently), and everyone knows your recovery rate slows significantly as you get older. Sharp's got 3 years' advantage in that particular contest. Also, he's been bought recently to fill a specific role in Adkins' head, whereas Rickie's a legacy player, who has been essential but might not be any more. I definitely wouldn't say Lambert can't do that. In first season in particular he was good at running the channels, and had a decent cross on him when required. Pardew and Adkins just recognised that RL was much, much more of a threat closer to the box, both for making chances for himself, bringing team mates into the games, or picking up fouls. RL's ability to do all of that has pretty much defined the way we've played in recent years; and rightly so given how successful he's been at it. I imagine the idea of running the channels has largely been coached out of him while with us, in favour of doing what he's best at in central positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 And I think if he does that game in, game out then he'll be a talisman. Can't argue with that, but expecting his very best in every match is rather optimistic. I agree....even Norwich dropped/rested Holt a few times last season...despite being captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Evidently Roy Hodgson doesn't think so. So you don't think being 8th top scorer (whilst at a newly promoted mid table club) in possibly the world's best league shows that you don't need a great deal of pace to score goals? That seems to be what some are saying of Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I honestly don't know how any of you can doubt Rickie after what he has done for us over the last 3 seasons. You don't need pace to score goals and there is much more to his game than just an aerial threat. He has missed a handful of games for us and is looking in peak condition and much fitter. The same doubters will be saying they always knew he would step up if he starts scoring goals for fun next season. As someone that used to run 11 second 100 metres and is now 39, I can assure you it makes it a damn sight easier if you do have it though. This doubter is more than happy to say "I didn't think he'd step up to the Championship either", so not sure what your final point is based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeySFC Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Funny, we all had this exact same discussion last summer before the Championship season and we all know how Rickie turned out last season... Rickie has scored more goals than Grant Holt at every level he's played at, so why can't he do the same in the Prem? Can't believe you lot, not believing that Rickie can make the step up as he's been so vital to our team for the past 3 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I definitely wouldn't say Lambert can't do that. In first season in particular he was good at running the channels, and had a decent cross on him when required. Pardew and Adkins just recognised that RL was much, much more of a threat closer to the box, both for making chances for himself, bringing team mates into the games, or picking up fouls. RL's ability to do all of that has pretty much defined the way we've played in recent years; and rightly so given how successful he's been at it. I imagine the idea of running the channels has largely been coached out of him while with us, in favour of doing what he's best at in central positions. In League One, where he was facing League One markers, with League One flaws. He didn't do it in the Championship because there was no point. I don't argue that he's a decent linkman, he might even be the ideal "false nine" due to his passing and holding up the ball, but that's not the way people get 15 goals in the Prem. I've long questioned his ability to get into the box early and get on the end of low crosses, which Holt is very good at. We can't be waiting to get our strikers into goalscoring positions in the Prem, it has to happen instantly or the chance just doesn't manifest itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Funny, we all had this exact same discussion last summer before the Championship season and we all know how Rickie turned out last season... Rickie has scored more goals than Grant Holt at every level he's played at, so why can't he do the same in the Prem? Can't believe you lot, not believing that Rickie can make the step up as he's been so vital to our team for the past 3 seasons. Interesting stat, Saints' critics might say that's because we're a "one man team". Did people say the same about Norwich ? If it's any help, same goes for Kelvin, and I have doubts about him in the Prem too. And to get this back on track, I'm by no means convinced about signing Rodriguez either, though he certainly seems to have potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 (edited) So you don't think being 8th top scorer (whilst at a newly promoted mid table club) in possibly the world's best league shows that you don't need a great deal of pace to score goals? That seems to be what some are saying of Lambert. I'm off to soccerbase to fight fire with fire. Well, Holt scored at Chelsea, at Liverpool, at home to Man U, twice home to Newcastle and at Arsenal, but that means he only scored 9 in his other 30 matches which were mostly against Prem dregs. So ok, the Prem's crap and Lambert has every chance of scoring pedestrian goals against the likes of Wigan and Stoke. Edited 29 May, 2012 by The9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 fight fire with fire. This can only end in tears or multiple insurance claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastal Saint Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Not keen on this signing. If he didn't want to know last season, we should move on. I would be happier if players were keen to sign for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Not keen on this signing. If he didn't want to know last season, we should move on. I would be happier if players were keen to sign for us. Saints didn't have a bid accepted for him last season, so it didn't get to the point where he was required to make a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I'm off to soccerbase to fight fire with fire. Well, Holt scored at Chelsea, at Liverpool, at home to Man U, twice home to Newcastle and at Arsenal, but that means he only scored 9 in his other 30 matches which were mostly against Prem dregs. So ok, the Prem's crap and Lambert has every chance of scoring pedestrian goals against the likes of Wigan and Stoke. To bring this full circle, that's why I think Sharp, who could score against anyone, will play more matches in the Prem for Saints next season than Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel=God-Poyet=Sod Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 As someone that used to run 11 second 100 metres and is now 39, I can assure you it makes it a damn sight easier if you do have it though. This doubter is more than happy to say "I didn't think he'd step up to the Championship either", so not sure what your final point is based on? If you are genuinely happy admitting you were wrong last year, do you not think you could possibly be wrong again? Also, it's nice to see you can blow your own trumpet about the 100m even if you can't get behind Rickie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 If you are genuinely happy admitting you were wrong last year, do you not think you could possibly be wrong again? Also, it's nice to see you can blow your own trumpet about the 100m even if you can't get behind Rickie. I'm perfectly aware that I might be wrong about it again, but in the back of my head is that nagging doubt that everyone else was wrong about all those League One players we had who everyone else was unaware were actually Prem players in disguise. Even if Lambert turns out to be a perfectly competent Prem player, which I'm not really debating actually, I still think Sharp is going to get more games than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Technically Lambert is the most accomplished footballer in the team. He isn't the quickest but he has a sharp football brain. Maybe we would want to use him differently if Rodriguez is signed. He regularly drifts out wide, with Rodriguez, Lee and Sharp available maybe we are looking to keep it fresh up front by rotating the strikers and setting up in different ways rather than just 1/2 up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc1971 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I'm assuming not J-Rod would give us four strikers fighting it out for 2 spots and Lee Barnard. Can't see us adding another expensive striker in Hooper to the mix as well. Rather we got in some extra defenders TBH. If we do sign J Rod I think Adkins has an idea to play him wide or in the hole, not as a out and out striker he will be more of a Guly-esk type for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Technically Lambert is the most accomplished footballer in the team. He isn't the quickest but he has a sharp football brain. Maybe we would want to use him differently if Rodriguez is signed. He regularly drifts out wide, with Rodriguez, Lee and Sharp available maybe we are looking to keep it fresh up front by rotating the strikers and setting up in different ways rather than just 1/2 up front. I can see him sitting in the hole popping a few passes about against some teams, but it's a bit of a luxury role when Guly does the same thing plus he runs a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchen_dan Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Quick update: His agent has been in Southampton today and yesterday while Jay is still on holiday. Personal terms have been offered and we are now at the negotiation stage. Just need to wait and see now for his decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 I can see him sitting in the hole popping a few passes about against some teams, but it's a bit of a luxury role when Guly does the same thing plus he runs a bit... Guly can do some outstanding first touch passes playing strikers in but not that often. What he does do often is to fail to control on the first touch and a large number of passes don't reach the target. Lambert has a good first touch and close control together with very good passing. Guly is quicker but Lambert is a lot smarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Quick update: His agent has been in Southampton today and yesterday while Jay is still on holiday. Personal terms have been offered and we are now at the negotiation stage. Just need to wait and see now for his decision. Where has that come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
up and away Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 In League One, where he was facing League One markers, with League One flaws. He didn't do it in the Championship because there was no point. I don't argue that he's a decent linkman, he might even be the ideal "false nine" due to his passing and holding up the ball, but that's not the way people get 15 goals in the Prem. I've long questioned his ability to get into the box early and get on the end of low crosses, which Holt is very good at. We can't be waiting to get our strikers into goalscoring positions in the Prem, it has to happen instantly or the chance just doesn't manifest itself. I tend to agree with most of that and after looking closely at Holt, Ricky will have to find another way to get his goals because I don't believe he's up to Holt's pace. I still believe Ricky will get you goals but I am wondering at what cost. Because we will have to open ourselves up more to create those chances and I have seen how damaging that has been even against poor teams in the Championship. For Ricky to work in the Premier, he will need to work off a quality striker with pace and another decent threat to give himself the space and time. Even though I feel that is possible, not completely sure it's the right way to go in the Premier. I can't see the combination of Ricky and Billy working together in the Premier, though I can see options for either with alternatives. I would love to see a player like Rodriques brought into the squad but I would still want to see a head line signing to spearhead the attack. Otherwise I feel we may have badly under judged what is required in the Premier. If we can replicate that pass and move football we started off last season with, combined with improved players we should be well ok. Equally I would expect some good hidings along the way should we try to push things without decent control. Our weakness is going to be that we underestimate how good the Premier is and what's required for a season, though the reduced fixtures should help our style a lot. Really excited about how the season is going to pan out and would not be surprised it comes as a shock to Adkins. It's then going to be how we adapt and move on from early set backs that's going to be important. I have a lot of faith in Adkins but it will come as no surprise if things in his first Premier season do not work out and we will have to learn for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchen_dan Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Where has that come from? Alan Nixon on Twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Alan Nixon on Twitter Ah ok - cool. Just catching up on all the developments myself...all over BBC, Sky sports etc. So it's definetley happening, just need to get the player to decide. Got a feeling this will drag and drag though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Guly can do some outstanding first touch passes playing strikers in but not that often. What he does do often is to fail to control on the first touch and a large number of passes don't reach the target. Lambert has a good first touch and close control together with very good passing. Guly is quicker but Lambert is a lot smarter. I probably agree with that, though Guly does quite often take a "long" first touch into space to allow him to get up to speed with the ball, which a lot of people mistake for a poor touch - he only does it when he's got space though, and usually kills it dead when there are opponents around, so I like to give him the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintSteve Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Because I think Sharp is more mobile, has more pace, makes better runs, creates more space and as a result, offers more of a threat at the top level. Also, he's less injury prone. Lambert's skillset and aerial ability will be very useful in some games, but I can't see us (for example) sticking him up front against Man U away and expecting him to chase down everything for 90 minutes, whereas I can see Sharp doing exactly that. It will also depend on who else we sign though, if we get someone mobile with aerial ability in, Lambert will be less used, if we get more nippy finishers in, Sharp might get phased out. I'm also looking at when we signed them and how the evolution of the team might progress. There's not going to be much room for one-paced, relatively immobile players who can't beat anyone in the Prem side. You really take the prize...so Sheringham never made it in the premiership Lambert is the most skillful player in our squad by a mile.. you don't need pace when your brain is quicker than everyone elses. God forbid.. go watch Saints again and learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Unless we've gambled and gone straight in with a relatively generous non-negotiable offer, there's no chance his agent will let him accept the first offer on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Unless we've gambled and gone straight in with a relatively generous non-negotiable offer, there's no chance his agent will let him accept the first offer on the table. Nah, it will drag on and on and on and on. Probably weeks and weeks until we have anything concluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 in the back of my head is that nagging doubt that everyone else was wrong about all those League One players we had who everyone else was unaware were actually Prem players in disguise. Even if Lambert turns out to be a perfectly competent Prem player, which I'm not really debating actually, I still think Sharp is going to get more games than him. If Saints hadnt signed Sharp he would be a league 1 player right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 He was in the team of the year. Along with some of our players and been a major factor how a skint brum made th playoffs To me, being in the PFA team of the year means very little. Whilst I realise it's not the best thing to go on, a friend of mine watched him at the Hawthorns as he is a season ticket holder at West Brom, and he said he was really overrated. Similarly Scott Dann, I really did rate him at Birmingham alongside Roger Johnson. Birmingham went down and they both got moves to Premier League clubs, but they both went to pretty bad teams, both of which went down. Dann ended up at Blackburn, and given they had sod all cash to spend on fees and wages, I was really quite surprised he went there. If he was that good, I've no doubt that someone better would have come in for him. He's been relegated again, so once again I have worries. If memory serves, Dann played alongside our very own Fox at both Walsall and Coventry, and they were rated very well when played together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 a number of people are already playing " musical chairs " with players on the bench. Who's first choice, Who's in, Who's out..etc. I think NA will use them all on a regular basis depending on; form, fitness, injuries and suspensions, and everyone will get a shout over the duration of whole season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18246845 Been busy, assume you've seen this 7mil accepted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Ah ok - cool. Just catching up on all the developments myself...all over BBC, Sky sports etc. So it's definetley happening, just need to get the player to decide. Got a feeling this will drag and drag though. Let's hope that NC's powers of persuasion are good as the lad really doesn't want to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Let's hope that NC's powers of persuasion are good as the lad really doesn't want to move. Neither did sharp to be fair, but $$$$ talks and I assume he'll take a big rise by moving here. Bit unambitious if he doesn't want to move though, he's got the potential to be top class but he needs to move to realise that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Neither did sharp to be fair, but $$$$ talks and I assume he'll take a big rise by moving here. Bit unambitious if he doesn't want to move though, he's got the potential to be top class but he needs to move to realise that. He's probably hoping Everton will bid for him as well then in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 He's probably hoping Everton will bid for him as well then in that case. It may be a long wait, they don't have a lot of cash to splash and will probably prioritise Pienaar higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 Neither did sharp to be fair, but $$$$ talks and I assume he'll take a big rise by moving here. Bit unambitious if he doesn't want to move though, he's got the potential to be top class but he needs to move to realise that. Sharp was totally different. His Mrs was expecting, they knew the issue with their unborn & his Mrs didn't want to move until afterwards. I wouldn't have moved in that situation either and I'm a 'kin Saints fan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 It may be a long wait, they don't have a lot of cash to splash and will probably prioritise Pienaar higher. Fair summary I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 29 May, 2012 Share Posted 29 May, 2012 You really take the prize...so Sheringham never made it in the premiership Lambert is the most skillful player in our squad by a mile.. you don't need pace when your brain is quicker than everyone elses. God forbid.. go watch Saints again and learn Good point well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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