Tottenham riots

[capitalsaint]

[video=youtube;6Gex_ya4-Oo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo&feature=youtu.be

 

Sorry if already posted!

[sotonjoe]

My flat is about 400m from Reeves' furniture shop in Croydon. That's closer than I really want to get to this ****ing mess, to be honest.

 

 

Saintsweb HQ is gonna burn. This is no joke!

[Foxstone]

Personally I would like to see a "big house" built on Rockall or some other wild and remote place in the North Atlantic, and all these little rats can be housed there at her majesties pleasure to show them what austerity is really like!

 

Sorry if I sound a bit trite, but I'm freeking ****ed off with us looking for reasons why these little gits are doing what they are doing ! This country has to toughen up or mobs like this will end up ruling.

[saintbletch]

Saintbletch, a wonderful post and I can see how people are mesmerised by so romantic beliefs. You may be right but please accept my cynicism not as a criticism of your decent principles, but to me I can't get past the belief that the last few days have been seized by opportunists.

 

I wouldn't disagree with that point at all OldNick.

 

But I'd ask whether such opportunists would act on an opportunity to break the law if they truly felt like an active and wanted member of our society.

 

If I heard on the radio correctly this morning, the Hackney riot started after the police did a stop and search regarding a gun.The Police trying to make the area safer are then impeded.

 

This is what I meant by the politically correct debate having gone too far.

 

The police are hamstrung now. They shot and killed a man. Time will tell whether they acted correctly.

 

But now they are impotent. Perhaps because they've been caught with their trousers down over getting a little to close to politics and newspaper Barons. Perhaps because we are now to have 'elected' Commissioners who will be accountable to the public who, just like our politicians will also have to listen to focus groups before they make a decision.

 

But either way, they cannot now take the action they need to take because they are concerned about public perception.

 

I noted that the independent police complaints commission made an interim statement about the shooting in Tottenham, not something we are used to hearing. We normally get "We can't comment on an on-going investigation". I wouldn't be at all surprised to get an early verdict and I equally wouldn't be at all surprised for some officers to be sacrificed - if ANY wrong-doing is uncovered.

[Huntingdon]

I had a feeling that serious social unrest was just around the corner

Some of us are old enough to remember the Brixton and Toxteth riots from the early 80's

 

In the middle of recessions, you will find angry and depressed people who feel energised by causing destruction

 

I fear this will escalate into other areas of social divides too, unless the Government acts quick, and gives the Police a green light to open fire

If they don't, we will see Mosques being burned to the ground very soon. There is much anger towards our Muslim population and they will feel that anger if the Police don't take control

[JackFrost]

I agree with you. It's copy-cat, mobbing, bundling...... But why? I would never have done something like this, and I bet you wouldn't either. So why do they? Why do groups of youths (usually, although I did spot a fat, middle-aged man running off with something up his top on the news last night) feel the need to behave like this? Are they bored? Do they have no role models? Or do they think that if others can get away with it, then they'll give it a go.

 

Youths hunt in packs, regardless of their colour or status. It's always been that way - not as extreme as this but, as you point out, information is more readily available these days. Which is why I referred, ages ago, to football fights, Teddy Boys, Spivs, Mods and Rockers and the Bullingdon club. Young (men generally) have always been in 'gangs' to destroy stuff.

 

Reasons will include some or all of the below.

 

Greed,

 

The fact that the chances of the authorities stopping them from doing it are almost 0,

 

Their unlikely to face any repercussions,

 

Their selfish individuals,

 

They've been brought up in workless households and have known nothing else but receiving handouts for doing bugger all.

 

Their bored and want to have what they call "fun"

 

They want to jump on the bandwagon and pretend their fighting against the establishment when they don't even know what the word means

 

Their drunk,

 

Their stoned,

 

They've been brought up surrounded by gang-culture/crime which in certain parts of the media has been portrayed as "cool"

 

Their unemployed and have nothing better to do

 

Their benefits have been cut and they think that is outrageous, what? their supposed to do work to receive money??!! how dare they scrap my EMA when all I do is turn up to college and do bugger all else?!!

 

A culture of complete decadence that the Labour government invented and the Tories are stamping on far too hard, where privileges are all too often seen as basic human rights

 

Woeful parenting

 

An ever dividing gap between the rich and the poor.

 

 

 

I could go on but I've only scratched the surface.

[dubai_phil]

Agree with bits of that, disagree with most.

 

But it seems like you've just re-stated the problem.

 

Other than a lot of chest-beating rhetoric and an implied "they should all just magically and instantly be a little bit more like me and the mates I grew up with", other than time travel to go back and instil this doctrine at an earlier age, I don't really see how you plan to make this happen to solve the problem we face now.

 

Given that we are where we are, and given that the opportunity to instil some of the values you sensibly argue should be possessed, has passed, what would you do to solve the wider problem JackanorySFC?

 

I'll say up front that I've no idea what concrete steps to take to solve the problem we have. But I'd start by looking for a cause, no matter how painful a process that might be for our society.

 

But what would you do to bring about the change in attitude you've outlined above?

 

Having been snafu'd by the Renewal system, had to sit and read for a change.

 

There have been some truly excellent posts on this thread, from yourself & pap, thanks made interesting reading (oh and some truly stupid ones trying to link it back to politics & history.)

 

There really is no easy answer to this "criminality". It has taken decades of "Apologist Policies" and "Passing the Buck", and that has allowed this culuture to grow in society. It can no sooner change over night than a fan could change his football allegiance, it is so ingrained now.

 

The solution has to be built around a long lost word in society - Respect. And seeing as Bankers don't respect the poor suckers who's savings they gamble with, the Politicians don't in the main respect their constituents, just their trough and clearly the yoof don't respect nuffink cept BB & FB.

 

How clear today that "Society" hangs by such a thin thread. How tired must those cops be? 16.000 on the streets of London tonight eh? Leaves a lot of other places short if things spread. Very worrying for friends and families

 

Lots of handwringing once again about the causes by many on the telly (and some on here) and looking to cast blame or score political points - ******s the lot of you.

 

Instead of that how about some sympathy or even concrete plans to help the poor innocent sods who's homes and businesses have been torched, people held up in Restaurants and having their Wedding Rings stolen? Families having lost a whole lifetime of souvenirs, pictures, evidence that they were actually living a life?

 

People who's homes had been torched walking around Tottenham having to ask reporsters what they should do because nobody had thought to communicate at local government level or set up any centres to help them (But the top dogs all got on telly to give their views)

 

SOD the protagonists how about helping the victims?

 

Oh, I forgot, it's the UK, the rioters are the victims aren't they.

 

All those shopkeepers and people living in flats over shops trying to make their legal way in the world. It's all their fault they deserve to get burnt out.

[JustMike]

Isn't this part of the problem, that young people automatically assume they're going to be handed "opportunities" on a plate without actually having to put in any effort?

 

The pikey **** the Sky reporter confronted in Clapham last night summed it up perfectly when she claimed that she was "getting our taxes back" - I would wager serious money that she's never paid a penny in tax in her life. generalisation>

 

yep, spoon fed, Nanny State. Country has been too soft for years with people too quick to play the PC / ethics / human rights cards

[Saint-scooby]

The answer is pretty simple

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workfare

[saintbletch]

I would start by getting hold of all the Blackberry messenger logs from the last few days, identifying all of the people responsible for sending the messages which were essentially organising this disorder.

 

It'll be nigh-on impossible to catch those responsible for the looting, there's simply too many people and very little in the way of identifying evidence, as the vast majority were hooded/masked up. Some of them will have left fingerprints at the scene, take the video of the kids breaking into Ladbrokes at Clapham Junction, it didn't look like any of them wore gloves, and they were trying (and mostly failing) to pull a TV off the wall. Should be plenty of fingerprints there, and very little chance of claiming they got there during normal activity, i.e. going in the bookies to put a bet on. Go round all the schools and colleges, get fingerprints off everyone and cross-reference.

 

They've got to start somewhere.

 

I was thinking the same thing myself this morning. Actually I was wondering whether an app could be developed to collate this sort of information from twitter - but that's another story.

 

The problem is that it's a slippery slope there Steve.

 

If we start to indict people for the stuff they spout of social media, we're all in trouble.

 

Perhaps an emergency law that allowed for mobile comms (wireless/3G) to be interrupted during periods of civil unrest would be a better way to go. Although laws passed in haste that give governments too much power are never a good idea.

 

Suspension of twitter/BBM/FB might be an option but I'm not sure governments can easily interfere with commercial organisation's assets in this way.

 

But to use someone's ill-thought out re-tweet as evidence is a dodgy legal area. One man's incitement to riot is another man's humour.

 

Saintsweb HQ is gonna burn. This is no joke!

[OldNick]

A sure sign of wealth, eh?

 

Only really works if you actually believe these kids went into a designer store and bought these clothes at full whack. You've never really spent any time amongst poorer people, have you?

I love it when the Wolfie Smiths get on their soapboxes, I can see it in the University common rooms, as for your last inane sentence, it depends what you call poor,does that mean somebody who had only one pair of shoes to go to school with, 1 school shirt, and left to roam the streets in the 60's during the holidays as your parents were both working? My idea of poor and deprived is the kids in Somalia, not kids who have mobile phones, food to eat, designer clothes trainers, and Sky tv when they get home.

[Dog]

according to the BBC website it's spread to Oxford and Reading

 

Are you sure?

[Barry the Badger]

I was thinking the same thing myself this morning. Actually I was wondering whether an app could be developed to collate this sort of information from twitter - but that's another story.

 

The problem is that it's a slippery slope there Steve.

 

If we start to indict people for the stuff they spout of social media, we're all in trouble.

 

Perhaps an emergency law that allowed for mobile comms (wireless/3G) to be interrupted during periods of civil unrest would be a better way to go. Although laws passed in haste that give governments too much power are never a good idea.

 

Suspension of twitter/BBM/FB might be an option but I'm not sure governments can easily interfere with commercial organisation's assets in this way.

 

But to use someone's ill-thought out re-tweet as evidence is a dodgy legal area. One man's incitement to riot is another man's humour.

 

Hants Police just tweeted

 

HantsPolice Hampshire Police

@ @missgucci13 It is an offence to commit or encourage riot. Your msg has been referred for consideration for criminal investigation #police

13 minutes ago

[OldNick]

Hants Police just tweeted

 

HantsPolice Hampshire Police

@ @missgucci13 It is an offence to commit or encourage riot. Your msg has been referred for consideration for criminal investigation #police

13 minutes ago

notice the name Miss Gucci, I wonder what type of shops she will be looking to loot, it wont be Primark, but of course she will be from a deprived area so its all ok

[JackFrost]

Are you sure?

 

Yeah I had to look at that twice. "1155: Thames Valley Police say outbreaks of "copycat" violence broke out in Oxford and Reading last night."

 

BBC also reporting that "Hampshire Police say people used Facebook and Twitter social networking sites last night to try to organise disorder in Southampton"

 

Very good comment here

 

Rob, London writes: You create a society where vastly overpaid footballers and models can flaunt their wealth and behave in any manner they see fit, and are still treated as near gods by the media. You lead our youth to expect instant fame and wealth, and instead they get unemployment, poverty, and no future. And now you act surprised when they revolt

Edited 9 August, 2011 by JackFrost

[Verbal]

Are you sure?

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all. The High Street in Oxford has always been an edgy place at night at the best of times.

[Barry the Badger]

notice the name Miss Gucci, I wonder what type of shops she will be looking to loot, it wont be Primark, but of course she will be from a deprived area so its all ok

 

Says who?

[Spudders]

yep, spoon fed, Nanny State. Country has been too soft for years with people too quick to play the PC / ethics / human rights cards

 

In a nutshell.

[JackFrost]

Sadly it's only a matter of time before someone gets killed IMO

 

"BREAKING NEWS A 26-year-old man shot in a car in Croydon last night has died in hospital, Scotland Yard says."

 

There you go

[Mattio]

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337 shame they couldn't spell lose...

[stevegrant]

I was thinking the same thing myself this morning. Actually I was wondering whether an app could be developed to collate this sort of information from twitter - but that's another story.

 

The problem is that it's a slippery slope there Steve.

 

If we start to indict people for the stuff they spout of social media, we're all in trouble.

Twitter's a difficult one due to re-tweets, the use of sarcasm/parody for comedic purposes, etc.

 

It seemed as though the disorder has mostly been organised via BBM - gone are the days when a Blackberry was the sole preserve of a business executive wanting to be able to pick up their emails at all times; now the main attraction is the messenger feature, it's instant, you not only get a notification that the user has received the message, you also get one when they've READ the message (unlike delivery reports with text messages, which only do the former), and it's generally included within the data allowances on your mobile contract. Whenever I'm on a tram in Croydon, it's always Blackberry phones that the kids are playing with.

 

BBM is a much more private means of communication, messages are only sent to people who you have a connection with, which you set up with a PIN that is unique to each handset. If these people have set up a wide network of communications with groups across London to organise widespread violent disorder, it really shouldn't be too hard to pin charges on them. The messages aren't for public broadcast, that's why they're sent on a private network rather than via Twitter or Facebook, and that's why they were able to overpower the police in so many different parts of the city.

[holepuncture]

"BREAKING NEWS A 26-year-old man shot in a car in Croydon last night has died in hospital, Scotland Yard says."

 

There you go

 

And it begins...

 

This will go up and down the country. Communities will fight back and civil war will commence.

[JackFrost]

How about taking sites like facebook/twitter etc. offline in the UK until further notice?

[Dog]

I hope Tony Blair is happy.

[Verbal]

How about taking sites like facebook/twitter etc. offline in the UK until further notice?

 

Because we don't want to come off like some tinpot middle eastern dictatorship?

[saintbletch]

Hants Police just tweeted

 

HantsPolice Hampshire Police

@ @missgucci13 It is an offence to commit or encourage riot. Your msg has been referred for consideration for criminal investigation #police

13 minutes ago

 

Well I never Barry the Badger.

 

But that looks like a bark and not a bite (yet).

 

All that missgucci13 needed to do to have a defence or sorts would be to put the whole message in quotes and say she was posting it as irony.

 

Or to end the message with some form of contradiction such as 'Not'.

 

I do hope the 13 is 'her' lucky number and not her age.

 

Twitter's a difficult one due to re-tweets, the use of sarcasm/parody for comedic purposes, etc.

 

It seemed as though the disorder has mostly been organised via BBM - gone are the days when a Blackberry was the sole preserve of a business executive wanting to be able to pick up their emails at all times; now the main attraction is the messenger feature, it's instant, you not only get a notification that the user has received the message, you also get one when they've READ the message (unlike delivery reports with text messages, which only do the former), and it's generally included within the data allowances on your mobile contract. Whenever I'm on a tram in Croydon, it's always Blackberry phones that the kids are playing with.

 

BBM is a much more private means of communication, messages are only sent to people who you have a connection with, which you set up with a PIN that is unique to each handset. If these people have set up a wide network of communications with groups across London to organise widespread violent disorder, it really shouldn't be too hard to pin charges on them. The messages aren't for public broadcast, that's why they're sent on a private network rather than via Twitter or Facebook, and that's why they were able to overpower the police in so many different parts of the city.

 

Yes as BBM (My Daughter has had a BlackBerry surgically connected to her right palm) is by invitation you may well be right Steve.

[Saint_clark]

Just got a blackberry message reading " Lets show the london boys how to do it, riot in southampton on friday night" LOL!! bless them.

 

stupid ****ing ****s!

 

Take it to the police.

[JackFrost]

How inevitable

 

http://www.facebook.com/groups/262800220412890/

[solentstars]

I love it when the Wolfie Smiths get on their soapboxes, I can see it in the University common rooms, as for your last inane sentence, it depends what you call poor,does that mean somebody who had only one pair of shoes to go to school with, 1 school shirt, and left to roam the streets in the 60's during the holidays as your parents were both working? My idea of poor and deprived is the kids in Somalia, not kids who have mobile phones, food to eat, designer clothes trainers, and Sky tv when they get home.

agree its funny how those criminals went for so called status symbols designer clothes,mobile phones etc.

i feel sorry for those people who were put in fear and shopkeepers who have lost their lively hoods and their stafff who are now out of work.

these lowlife anti social hoodie type yobs have been allowed for to long to run amonk on most estates in this country for to long now.

[capitalsaint]

If a vigilante group (for Saintsweb consistency let's suggest the EDL) formed to counter these yobs, they'd certainly find themselves some political legitimacy.

 

I can't decide if that's a good or bad thing.

[Minsk]

Political correctness didn't exist back then.

 

There's a big difference between those riots and what we're seeing today.

 

The riots you mentioned were a direct result of the actions of an institutionally racist police force, and the riots were confined largely to those areas. Whilst I don't condone the crimes they committed for one second the rioters there were actually fighting against something.

 

These riots are completely different, it's just the complete breakdown of a decadent society. None of the rioters out there don't give a flying toss about Mark Duggan, their only rioting and stealing and mugging because they can. They've seen weakness in authority (ie the Met) and their deciding to do what the hell they want because they won't be held accountable and even if they were they've got little to lose. It's all copycat stealing in various parts of London and other cities, the initial rioting in Tottenham influenced various groups of scum all around to do the same in their area because they know the Met can't do anything about it anywhere near quickly enough. They aren't even fighting against anything, they are doing what the hell they want for their own gain because society's authority has lost control. Most of it fuelled by cheap booze from the supermarket.

 

What your essentially seeing in parts of London is a lawless society.

 

Absolutely spot on!!

[Saintandy666]

I'm not sympathising with the morons taking out the rioting. They are acting absolutely out of order and it must end. However, you have to ask why we have so many morons of this kind. And I like to think of it as the 'Abandoned Youth'. We must act fast to stop this now, but without setting some precedent that would be okay in some tinpot dictatorship. Then, we must move into these areas, rebuild and also address the issues of why this is happening. People aren't born like this, they become this because of what they are exposed to while growing up. As much as I am not a Tory, a bit of looking into Bejamin Disraeli's One Nation stuff is relevant here. We mustn't ignore the tensions brewing in these areas again. It's quite clear we have become two nations.

[trousers]

Some drunken teenage girls' insightful views on the matter:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

 

"Everyone was breaking into stuff.....it was good though.....it was good fun.....yeah, we're drinking at 9 in the morning, yeah, free alcohol.....like, it's the government's fault....yeah, conservatives....whatever who it is, I dunno....just showing the police we can do what we want.....yeah, definitely hoping it will go on again tonight, definitely....it's the rich people, the people that have got businesses and that's why this has happened, because of the rich people....so we're just showing the rich people we can do what we want"

 

Three words spring to mind: Education, education, education

 

Sigh

[This Charming Man]

Twitter's a difficult one due to re-tweets, the use of sarcasm/parody for comedic purposes, etc.

 

It seemed as though the disorder has mostly been organised via BBM - gone are the days when a Blackberry was the sole preserve of a business executive wanting to be able to pick up their emails at all times; now the main attraction is the messenger feature, it's instant, you not only get a notification that the user has received the message, you also get one when they've READ the message (unlike delivery reports with text messages, which only do the former), and it's generally included within the data allowances on your mobile contract. Whenever I'm on a tram in Croydon, it's always Blackberry phones that the kids are playing with.

 

BBM is a much more private means of communication, messages are only sent to people who you have a connection with, which you set up with a PIN that is unique to each handset. If these people have set up a wide network of communications with groups across London to organise widespread violent disorder, it really shouldn't be too hard to pin charges on them. The messages aren't for public broadcast, that's why they're sent on a private net

work rather than via Twitter or Facebook, and that's why they were able to overpower the police in so many different parts of the city.

 

That bloke who jokingly tweeted he was going to blow up Robin Hood airport if they closed due to the snow was charged. I noticed people were tweeting his original message last night for some reason.

[This Charming Man]

Some drunken teenage girls' insightful views on the matter:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

 

"Everyone was breaking into stuff.....it was good though.....it was good fun.....yeah, we're drinking at 9 in the morning, yeah, free alcohol.....like, it's the government's fault....yeah, conservatives....whatever who it is, I dunno....just showing the police we can do what we want.....yeah, definitely hoping it will go on again tonight, definitely....it's the rich people, the people that have got businesses and that's why this has happened, because of the rich people....so we're just showing the rich people we can do what we want"

 

Three words spring to mind: Education, education, education

 

Sigh

 

I can think of three more... Utter, utter c*nt.

[solentstars]

If a vigilante group (for Saintsweb consistency let's suggest the EDL) formed to counter these yobs, they'd certainly find themselves some political legitimacy.

 

I can't decide if that's a good or bad thing.

i expect some of the hooligan scum were members of the edl

[Junior Mullet]

i expect some of the hooligan scum were members of the edl

 

Not very many based the footage I have seen.

[Saint_clark]

i expect some of the hooligan scum were members of the edl

 

This was what I was thinking.

[Pancake]

Odd one out game:

 

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Anyone in or around Wimbledon please watch yourselves, it is going to start kicking off there at 3pm (missus has been sent home from work after police alerted her company).

[skintsaint]

Just listened to the BBC and apparently we aren't going to use water cannons, rubber bullets etc as we want to police it in the 'British Way'. Looters really havent got too much to worry about at this time it seems with the Police watching the looters do their business in Birmingham without doing too much about it.

 

Saw a chav interviewed too, basically said it was about respect. Watched too much Ali G I feel.

 

Not a great look around the world with the Olympics next year lets put it that way.

[trousers]

Anyone in or around Wimbledon please watch yourselves, it is going to start kicking off there at 3pm (missus has been sent home from work after police alerted her company).

 

Nowhere near the railway station I hope? Need to go through there later.

[OldNick]

How are the authorities going to stop this? It is a very dangerous situation where the trouble can pop up anywhere

[trousers]

Just listened to the BBC and apparently we aren't going to use water cannons, rubber bullets etc as we want to police it in the 'British Way'. Looters really havent got too much to worry about at this time it seems with the Police watching the looters do their business in Birmingham without doing too much about it.

1400: Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh says plastic bullets - never used before during British disturbances - have been considered as "one of the tactics" available to officers at the riots.

"That's a tactic that will be used by the Metropolitan Police if deemed necessary," he says.

[Dog]

 

 

 

The ba5tards have even nicked that mannequins laces ffs.

[Saint_clark]

Anyone in or around Wimbledon please watch yourselves, it is going to start kicking off there at 3pm (missus has been sent home from work after police alerted her company).

 

Now that's interesting. I'd thought that this would only really continue through night times, as the darkness gives them a certain feeling off safety and anonymity. If it continues spreading and starts happening during the day this could get worse.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Nowhere near the railway station I hope? Need to go through there later.

 

I know, same here. Where you going from and to?

 

I worry as the train station is slap bang in the middle of the High Street.

[skintsaint]

1400: Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh says plastic bullets - never used before during British disturbances - have been considered as "one of the tactics" available to officers at the riots.

"That's a tactic that will be used by the Metropolitan Police if deemed necessary," he says.

 

Seems they've changed their mind since i saw the news a few hours back then.

 

Shouldnt be thinking about it - get it done. Sort them out.

[bridge too far]

The ba5tards have even nicked that mannequins laces ffs.

 

Even I know that the trend is to wear plimsoll-like shoes without laces

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Now that's interesting. I'd thought that this would only really continue through night times, as the darkness gives them a certain feeling off safety and anonymity. If it continues spreading and starts happening during the day this could get worse.

 

To be fair it started in Hackney during the day.

 

I'm more worried as I work on the top floor of probably the most targeted building in London for this kind of thing, Topshop Oxford Circus. Spending a lot of time looking out the windows...