Tottenham riots

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Just seen a report of a group of muslim men protecting shops in the vicinity of their mosque......

[saintbletch]

please tell me how feeling apart has anything to do with looting. it makes me sick all these bleeding hearts, these people should know what they are doing is wrong and decency should prevail.

The hard fact is that most in society are dishonest and look to get a chance to get something for nothing. By the softening of the Polices authority we now have scenes of anarchy.

How do we put the genie back into the bottle?

I believe that it should be announced that any person who is caught looting and not with a British passport will be immediately repatriated with his/her family. that would take a lot of people off the streets as the parents would all of a suddden take responsibility.

I know this is extreme and many will throw their hands up, but we have got to situation where these gangs are threatening the society as we knew it last week.

 

You appear to have fallen into a common trap if you don't mind me saying so OldNick, of assuming that you know where I might stand (perhaps politically too) on a debate. You also seem to be assuming that I'm excusing what is going on. I am not. I am simply looking for a root cause or causation factors.

 

I guess as this is such a common debating problem I need to explicitly state that nothing I'm about to say attempts to excuse what has gone on over the last several nights. While I'm dishing out the caveats I should also say that this is a problem that has no single root cause and no single cure. It's complex and by attempting to explain it away on a football message board we would be doing each other a diservice. So your passport scheme - I'll take with a pinch of similarly cynical salt.

 

To answer your question in bold above, I'll ask you a questions. Why are you not on the street looting?

 

I'm sure you'll come up with many reasons and might even be affronted that I asked it. In answering I expect you might use terms like wrong, respect, society, law abiding, tax paying, citizen, etc.

 

And in there lies your answer.

 

What if as a society we have passively allowed through various mechanisms (excessive imigration, unemployment, greed-is-good, racism, I'm alright jack, not in my back yard, not knowing the names of one's neighbours, someone else will deal with it) significant sections of the population to feel quite separate. I hate to use the word disenfranchised because you'll point out my bleeding heart again, but that word sums up the situation perfectly.

 

What if those people do not see themselves as part of a greater whole, what if they don't see themselves as citizens, what if they don't work and therefore don't pay tax and therefore don't bear the costs of their actions against the wider society, what if they see the enforcers of the law as their day to day 'enemy', what if multiple generations of their family have shared the same life outlook?

 

What if this general level of background disaffection could be sparked by some catalyst and for the response to be coordinated in some way? What could 'they' 'achieve'.

 

What if they took their queue from the results of a genuine protest over alleged police heavy-handedness in Tottenham? What if they saw how easy it is to take the streets from the police when a real and some may say genuine concern over how the police acted boils over? What if all of these factors together with the general fecklessness of youth combined?

 

Has it never struck you how such a small police force enforces order in our country. I mean look at the numbers of police and look at the population. Policing, or law and order in the wider sense only works through consent of the population. It's an amazingly fragile contract. We, the citizens allow the police to 'police'. Otherwise, if we rejected their licence to enforce the law en mass, it would be a simple matter for us to say 'no' and we have anarchy.

 

But coordinating such an en mass 'no' is not easy. Enter social media, twitter, Facebook, Blackberry Messenger, etc. And now you have the means for the population to coordinate. The student protests earlier in the year showed how twitter could be used to steal a march on the Police. Arab Spring anyone? When we looked upon the events in the middle-east earlier in the year, who thought that our youth would take to the streets too, coordinated via 'message' and 'like' and 'tweet'.

 

So my comment about feeling a part or apart is simple. If you feel that you have something invested in society then you're happy to maintain the status quo. If you don't feel part of that society then you have no qualms about trashing it.

 

But we're a pack 'animal' and we all feel the need to belong, so something has to replace the identity they are losing by not being part of society. So their gangs give them that greater identity they need and when they trash society and they take to the streets they feel in some completely warped sort of way that for the first time in a long time they've 'acheived' something. They're part of something.

 

I need to close by saying that I'm excusing this at all. I'm also not suggesting that there is some form of moral right on the side of the rioters. None of what I've said above was in the conscious minds of any of those involved I'm sure. They were out of control, law breakers who should be punished to the full extent of the law.

 

But years of turning our backs on these issues and years of polarised "political correctness" versus "heavy handed right-wing politics" debates have meant this has not been tackled or even debated properly. It's time for us to see some grey in amongst the black and the white.

 

Your responsible. I'm responsible. Our politicians are responsible. We're all responsible.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Saintbletch - don't try and adopt a sophisticated approach to these sort of issues. it doesn't work on here I'm afraid. It's much better to be simplistic and reactionary.

[Guided Missile]

These riots are the direct result of a generation, that has grown reliant on the benefits system that rewards dysfunctional families. The sense of entitlement without the responsibility to earn that right has been instilled in a large number of families, that have been housed and fed at taxpayers expense. The welfare state in broken and we will go through a lot of pain to fix it. I hope the government has the balls to continue with the difficult task, in the face of pressure from the unions and the criminals. (and I don't mean Ed Balls)

[bridge too far]

Saintbletch - don't try and adopt a sophisticated approach to these sort of issues. it doesn't work on here I'm afraid. It's much better to be simplistic and reactionary.

 

SaintBletch - that's a powerful post and I, for one, applaud you for putting it so succinctly.

[pap]

SaintBletch - very good post.

[Barry the Badger]

Sorry but the blame lies with the scum doing this for a laugh. No one else

 

I'm not talking about blame, where have I mentioned blame?

 

Why is it that trying to establish the root causes for this means you are automatically looking to detract blame from those carrying out the acts? The two things are not the same.

 

Do I believe there are deeper issues causing this then just 'scum doing this for a laugh' - YES I DO

Do I think that detracts from the fact that the rioters are responsible for their own actions - NO I DO NOT

Do I think there is anybody to blame other than the rioters themselves - NO I DO NOT

 

It is possible to think there are wider social issues without shifting blame.

[Dog]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2d6_1312854614&comments=1#comments

[OldNick]

AGAIN. It is possible to believe there are deeper reasons for all of this without in any way feeing that it's acceptable or that there's any excuse whatsover.

 

Why can't people see the difference between looking for causes and looking for excuses?

the cause for the first riot was down to a peaceful protest turning ugly, perhaps due to agitators/anarchists. Please do not tell me that the rest has anything less than taking advantage of the lack of police resources.

Funny how Footlocker, Currys JJB sports, Vodafone shops and the like are the reason for all the wrongs in these peoples eyes, as they attacked their property. What about the furniture shop in Croydon, 150 years they have been established, i assume they are the reason for these people to riot.

It hurts to say it but our society is riddled with people who want to get something for nothing.

[JRM]

You appear to have fallen into a common trap if you don't mind me saying so OldNick, of assuming that you know where I might stand (perhaps politically too) on a debate. You also seem to be assuming that I'm excusing what is going on. I am not. I am simply looking for a root cause or causation factors.

 

I guess as this is such a common debating problem I need to explicitly state that nothing I'm about to say attempts to excuse what has gone on over the last several nights. While I'm dishing out the caveats I should also say that this is a problem that has no single root cause and no single cure. It's complex and by attempting to explain it away on a football message board we would be doing each other a diservice. So your passport scheme - I'll take with a pinch of similarly cynical salt.

 

To answer your question in bold above, I'll ask you a questions. Why are you not on the street looting?

 

I'm sure you'll come up with many reasons and might even be affronted that I asked it. In answering I expect you might use terms like wrong, respect, society, law abiding, tax paying, citizen, etc.

 

And in there lies your answer.

 

What if as a society we have passively allowed through various mechanisms (excessive imigration, unemployment, greed-is-good, racism, I'm alright jack, not in my back yard, not knowing the names of one's neighbours, someone else will deal with it) significant sections of the population to feel quite separate. I hate to use the word disenfranchised because you'll point out my bleeding heart again, but that word sums up the situation perfectly.

 

What if those people do not see themselves as part of a greater whole, what if they don't see themselves as citizens, what if they don't work and therefore don't pay tax and therefore don't bear the costs of their actions against the wider society, what if they see the enforcers of the law as their day to day 'enemy', what if multiple generations of their family have shared the same life outlook?

 

What if this general level of background disaffection could be sparked by some catalyst and for the response to be coordinated in some way? What could 'they' 'achieve'.

 

What if they took their queue from the results of a genuine protest over alleged police heavy-handedness in Tottenham? What if they saw how easy it is to take the streets from the police when a real and some may say genuine concern over how the police acted boils over? What if all of these factors together with the general fecklessness of youth combined?

 

Has it never struck you how such a small police force enforces order in our country. I mean look at the numbers of police and look at the population. Policing, or law and order in the wider sense only works through consent of the population. It's an amazingly fragile contract. We, the citizens allow the police to 'police'. Otherwise, if we rejected their licence to enforce the law en mass, it would be a simple matter for us to say 'no' and we have anarchy.

 

But coordinating such an en mass 'no' is not easy. Enter social media, twitter, Facebook, Blackberry Messenger, etc. And now you have the means for the population to coordinate. The student protests earlier in the year showed how twitter could be used to steal a march on the Police. Arab Spring anyone? When we looked upon the events in the middle-east earlier in the year, who thought that our youth would take to the streets too, coordinated via 'message' and 'like' and 'tweet'.

 

So my comment about feeling a part or apart is simple. If you feel that you have something invested in society then you're happy to maintain the status quo. If you don't feel part of that society then you have no qualms about trashing it.

 

But we're a pack 'animal' and we all feel the need to belong, so something has to replace the identity they are losing by not being part of society. So their gangs give them that greater identity they need and when they trash society and they take to the streets they feel in some completely warped sort of way that for the first time in a long time they've 'acheived' something. They're part of something.

 

I need to close by saying that I'm excusing this at all. I'm also not suggesting that there is some form of moral right on the side of the rioters. None of what I've said above was in the conscious minds of any of those involved I'm sure. They were out of control, law breakers who should be punished to the full extent of the law.

 

But years of turning our backs on these issues and years of polarised "political correctness" versus "heavy handed right-wing politics" debates have meant this has not been tackled or even debated properly. It's time for us to see some grey in amongst the black and the white.

 

Your responsible. I'm responsible. Our politicians are responsible. We're all responsible.

 

F8ck off, i grew up round tottenham had to go to school with a lot of the vile shlts that are doing this, they aspire to jamaican yardie gang culture, there are loads of opportunities in London for those who want it. i hear talk of poverty, and in the next sententance reporters saying arranged on social media and blackberry messenger. you take responsibility of you want but i'm ****ing not. it is the wishy washy white elite who delight in there "diverse" areas who are respsonsible for selling out the poor old people who are stuck on the estates with them, and i feel genuinely sorry for the decent kids who have to live in those areas and survive the gangs.

[trousers]

We're all responsible.

 

Indeed. I've been saying this for years about most things. We all look for others to blame for anything that happens but we rarely look at personal responsibility. We all vote for ineffectual governments (red and blue).

[bridge too far]

the cause for the first riot was down to a peaceful protest turning ugly, perhaps due to agitators/anarchists. Please do not tell me that the rest has anything less than taking advantage of the lack of police resources.

Funny how Footlocker, Currys JJB sports, Vodafone shops and the like are the reason for all the wrongs in these peoples eyes, as they attacked their property. What about the furniture shop in Croydon, 150 years they have been established, i assume they are the reason for these people to riot.

It hurts to say it but our society is riddled with people who want to get something for nothing.

 

At the 'top' as well as at the 'bottom' of society. But the ones at the top don't get such a bad press - indeed some of them are even praised !

[Saint_Pedro]

Saintbletch - don't try and adopt a sophisticated approach to these sort of issues. it doesn't work on here I'm afraid. It's much better to be simplistic and reactionary.

 

Just because you're not sophistictaed, it doesn't mean some of us appreciate a good post. Well said, St.Bletch

[JackanorySFC]

At the 'top' as well as at the 'bottom' of society. But the ones at the top don't get such a bad press - indeed some of them are even praised !

 

Who "at the top" has done anything civil disobidience-wise that compares to these vile street rats? I'm absolutely stunned you can defend them by attempting to throw in some ridiculous class war fare and insinuating successful people have done/ do things worse but get praised for it - do me a favour!

 

I work in London and have lived in Bermondsey (the last white working class area of inner City London that exists - oh and no riots there) and Islington where I'm come face to face with these disgusting under class ****s, the only aspiration they have is "hustling", earning easy money from street crime, drug dealing and theft. I've also worked with some of the kids from these estates, they've gone to college, uni and worked hard to avoid the gangs showing it can be done. No excuses for these scum, opportunities are there in London if you want it.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Just because you're not sophistictaed, it doesn't mean some of us appreciate a good post. Well said, St.Bletch

 

errrr.....

[sotonjoe]

Sorry but the blame lies with the scum doing this for a laugh. No one else

 

*woosh* Dulldays in illiterate shocker.

[pap]

Indeed. I've been saying this for years about most things. We all look for others to blame for anything that happens but we rarely look at personal responsibility. We all vote for ineffectual governments (red and blue).

 

Thank you trousers and saintbletch. You are both right.

 

I look at the people here screaming for "somebody to do something" and think "how weak are you?". Every time you cede your responsibility, you cede your own power. People have been doing this for generations, getting "someone else to sort it out" and this is the result. Some posters in this thread would have us go to war with our own youth. They are part of the problem.

 

Nice to see a few posters actually trying to assess how we got here, rather than simply screaming abuse like a noblet.

[Tac-tics]

Fight fire with fire, get the armed forces out on the streets, have a bloody curfew and if any horrible little **** is out and about, spectating or participating, unleash heavy tactics. We've gone way too soft. Tear gass, water cannons, rubber bullets.

 

**** political correctness, they did nothing to prevent last night.

[bridge too far]

Who "at the top" has done anything civil disobidience-wise that compares to these vile street rats? I'm absolutely stunned you can defend them by attempting to throw in some ridiculous class war fare and insinuating successful people have done/ do things worse but get praised for it - do me a favour!

 

........

 

All are crimes against society. Be it rioting and looting / thieving by mobs or thieving by MPs with their expenses, being rewarded for failure (bankers), taking part in illegal practices (tabloids) or taking back-handers (police).

 

They're all crimes that affect us all in one way or another and make us disillusioned and angry.

[bridge too far]

Fight fire with fire, get the armed forces out on the streets, have a bloody curfew and if any horrible little **** is out and about, spectating or participating, unleash heavy tactics. We've gone way too soft. Tear gass, water cannons, rubber bullets.

 

**** political correctness, they did nothing to prevent last night.

 

Did we have 'political correctness' at the time of the Brixton riots or the Tottenham riots of the 80s?

[Tac-tics]

Did we have 'political correctness' at the time of the Brixton riots or the Tottenham riots of the 80s?

 

No interest in the past, times have changed, cultures have changed.

[scott_saints]

According to a young rioter on the news "the youth of today are angry" ..... when asked why- "Dunno. Government n stuff"

 

[solentstars]

The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let’s just focus on one: the way Britain’s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It’s violent, it’s sexist, it’s homophobic and it’s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers – and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children’s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We've seen a lot (but not all) of black faces on our TV screens; it’s a shame that the spotlight can’t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible

 

What rubbish those scum on the streets of every colour are britsh,this is not a time to posting political bile.get the army in to deal with those young thugs hoodie types you see in every city estate and city who have no respect for any one

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

No interest in the past, times have changed, cultures have changed.

 

Well I think you won the award for top intellectual argument of the day. no interest in the past.....if you don't learn from the past you'll keep ****ing up in the future.

 

This 'tweet' summed up things fairly well IMO: "Conservative MP Peter Luff tweets: No single explanation for this anarchy but rioters likely to be products of failed families - bored, selfish, unloved young men."

[Saint_Pedro]

As I wrote in the first line, the roots of these events are many and tangled .........

I was trying to get just one point accross. I am not saying gangs are the only reason fior the riots. I did see many whites people taking advantage of the situation as wel......

 

Sent from my laptop using a keyboard and my fingers.....

[solentstars]

Just seen a report of a group of muslim men protecting shops in the vicinity of their mosque......

 

I expect from those racist crooks from the bnp and edl another bunch of nasty people

 

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

[Barry the Badger]

No interest in the past, times have changed, cultures have changed.

 

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it"

 

Society may feel very different on the surface, but underneath it is not. On a basic level it's not even that different to 4-500 years ago.

[pap]

F8ck off, i grew up round tottenham had to go to school with a lot of the vile shlts that are doing this, they aspire to jamaican yardie gang culture, there are loads of opportunities in London for those who want it. i hear talk of poverty, and in the next sententance reporters saying arranged on social media and blackberry messenger. you take responsibility of you want but i'm ****ing not. it is the wishy washy white elite who delight in there "diverse" areas who are respsonsible for selling out the poor old people who are stuck on the estates with them, and i feel genuinely sorry for the decent kids who have to live in those areas and survive the gangs.

 

A really poor response to a well put case.

 

Not really hard to determine why people feel disenfranchised if these ravings are reflective of general public sentiment. Did you ever wonder why you had gangs in Tottenham? Ever wonder why Jamaican Yardie culture is prevalent there?

 

Probably not. Far easier to label them as bad guys and leave it at that. Shame really.

[gaz]

According to a young rioter on the news "the youth of today are angry" ..... when asked why- "Dunno. Government n stuff"

 

 

When one girl was asked last night why she was looting Currys, she said ''I'l getting my taxes back!''

 

[video=youtube;sXcI-NL3Tro]

 

Anyway. Tories in power, massive cuts, finanical crisis, depression, rioting in the streets. Just need The Specials for a true 80s revival.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WhhSBgd3KI&ob=av2e

[JackanorySFC]

Would you rather live next door to a banker, MP, Journo, policeman or feral hoodrat? The first 4 groups have made mistakes but the latter is violent. Never seen a banker, MP, Journo or copper throwing bricks, torching cars, smashing front doors through to residential homes or looting personally?

 

Absolutely shocking analogy, still stunned you can defend these scum. I've got plenty of mates that grew up in housing estates as bad as the hood rats on tele that have worked hard, refused benefits/ gang culture that have got good jobs and families. There are NO EXCUSES to riot.

 

No Dad - don't care, join the club

Poor housing - don't care, get a job, earn some money and get a better house

Bad school - don't care, no such thing as a "bad school" in 2011 Britain, rough schools yes but inspirational teachers at every school desperate to help disadvantaged kids

Ethnic monority - don't care, appreciate the opportunities this great country gives you and take advantage

No prospects - don't care - see above, loads of opportunities

 

There's no "understanding" to be had with these little villains, the irony here is the "hug a hoodie" brigade that want to listen to them etc etc would be the first to get robbed/ assaulted etc by these vile cretins if they went on to their estates and offered "help".

 

ANYONE can be ANYTHING in 21stC Britain, just go to school, work hard, be good to your fellow man and make your own luck regardless of your circumstances, fortunately 000's of hard working kids prove you and other liberal bed wetters wrong by getting off the estates, avoiding gangs and setting themselves up with rewarding and or/ lucrative careers.

 

No excuses.

[JackFrost]

Did we have 'political correctness' at the time of the Brixton riots or the Tottenham riots of the 80s?

 

Political correctness didn't exist back then.

 

There's a big difference between those riots and what we're seeing today.

 

The riots you mentioned were a direct result of the actions of an institutionally racist police force, and the riots were confined largely to those areas. Whilst I don't condone the crimes they committed for one second the rioters there were actually fighting against something.

 

These riots are completely different, it's just the complete breakdown of a decadent society. None of the rioters out there don't give a flying toss about Mark Duggan, their only rioting and stealing and mugging because they can. They've seen weakness in authority (ie the Met) and their deciding to do what the hell they want because they won't be held accountable and even if they were they've got little to lose. It's all copycat stealing in various parts of London and other cities, the initial rioting in Tottenham influenced various groups of scum all around to do the same in their area because they know the Met can't do anything about it anywhere near quickly enough. They aren't even fighting against anything, they are doing what the hell they want for their own gain because society's authority has lost control. Most of it fuelled by cheap booze from the supermarket.

 

What your essentially seeing in parts of London is a lawless society.

Edited 9 August, 2011 by JackFrost

[JRM]

A really poor response to a well put case.

 

Not really hard to determine why people feel disenfranchised if these ravings are reflective of general public sentiment. Did you ever wonder why you had gangs in Tottenham? Ever wonder why Jamaican Yardie culture is prevalent there?

 

Probably not. Far easier to label them as bad guys and leave it at that. Shame really.

 

no it's not a f*cking shame at all, i went to school, saw them for what they are, they had the same opportunities, some choose to work hard and are now reaping the benefits (and living away from the area), others didn't and choose the glamour they saw in being gangsters, an image not helped by the media and especially music industry.

f*ck them, just a shame when they set fire to the buildings the looters weren't still inside.

[Tac-tics]

Well I think you won the award for top intellectual argument of the day. no interest in the past.....if you don't learn from the past you'll keep ****ing up in the future.

 

This 'tweet' summed up things fairly well IMO: "Conservative MP Peter Luff tweets: No single explanation for this anarchy but rioters likely to be products of failed families - bored, selfish, unloved young men."

 

No what I'm not doing as the majority of people who think they are academics and the cream of society are doing, is dressing this up and describing it as something it's not, almist as if its a therapy session. Last night was a bunch of 'chavs' of what is undoubtedly the most screwed up generation of youth in the last century.It was a warm summers evening in which one group of idiots started and escalated via social network sites when it appeared no immediate action was being taken.

 

I would put all my money on 90% of those looting/rioting last night not having any reason for their actions. It was just a glorified rampage by optimistic chavs joining in.

 

Stop trying to relate last nights events to the events of Tottenham in the 80s, it's only similarity is the location.

 

My brother was hiding in the above flat of Weatherspoons in Woolwich, which was torched whilst himself, two friends and a two year old girl where hiding. His partners is a funeral director in Lilleshaw, these kids BROKE into the building, yes where people have relatives that are recently deceased laying at rest. So you now tell me when enough is enough and protection on a forceful scale us appropriate??

[saintbletch]

errrr.....

 

Thank you Saint_Pedro.

 

And as for anothersaintinsouthsea if you don't like my argument or posting style you can **** right off you total ****.

 

(It's OK. I got the irony in your original post)

[bridge too far]

Jackanory - at no time, anywhere, have I defended what's happened. I'm simply trying to understand why people behave like this. If we don't try to understand, we'll never sort the problems.

 

As for your remark "Never seen a banker, MP, Journo or copper throwing bricks, torching cars, smashing front doors through to residential homes or looting personally?", living in the leafy home counties I can tell you that I've seen disaffected, bored white middle class youngsters doing just this. They're sometimes given the label 'Hooray Henrys'.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club (read the paragraph 'Reputation')

 

But before you start thinking 'oh she doesn't know what the real world's like', I can tell you that I've lived in inner London, I have friends and family living in inner London and I have a very good friend serving with the Met whose safety I'm really concerned about.

 

I'm really sorry that you don't understand that crimes against society are just that. The argument could be put that the mobsters see the upper echelons of society behaving illegally or immorally and think 'I'll have some of that'.

Edited 9 August, 2011 by bridge too far

[OldNick]

Saintbletch, a wonderful post and I can see how people are mesmerised by so romantic beliefs. You may be right but please accept my cynicism not as a criticism of your decent principles, but to me I can't get past the belief that the last few days have been seized by opportunists.

My daughter said last night that lots of peoples status on Facebook was 'Lets go looting' Only joking of course but?

I'm one of the silent majority in our society who gets on with life and not looks to someone else to blame.

Yes Im sure there are deprivations and there always will be as nice people do not always rule communities, and resources are spread thinly.

The gangs rule in these areas and must be pretty frightening.

How can the decent people come to the top of these areas when the Police cannot get law and order?

The accusation of harassment everytime and is used IMO to avoid the law, hinders the Police and in turn the community. I dearly wish for society to be happy but too many hide away from personal responsibility and I read with interest the post regarding schools and teachers in those areas difficulties.

If I heard on the radio correctly this morning, the Hackney riot started after the police did a stop and search regarding a gun.The Police trying to make the area safer are then impeded.

[Mattio]

16000 cops on the street is gunna do feck all unless they're riot trained...

[stevegrant]

My flat is about 400m from Reeves' furniture shop in Croydon. That's closer than I really want to get to this ****ing mess, to be honest.

[Weston Super Saint]

Jackanory - at no time, anywhere, have I defended what's happened. I'm simply trying to understand why people behave like this. If we don't try to understand, we'll never sort the problems.

 

GREED.

 

Every police constable in the country has been on TV this morning saying the same thing!

 

These people are greedy, they want something for nothing, because OUR society has taught them they can have it!

 

That is the 'cause' of the riots.

[saintsmike25]

The Welfare system was far more in place under a labour Government and when labour were in power did you see riots? No because despite labours flaws they wanted to try and bridge the gap between the rich and the poor. All this latest bunch of morons we call a government has done is cut young peoples support. EMA, Raising tuition fee's, cutting jobs, youth clubs etc, and even police numbers.

 

When many people are unemployed and dissaccosiated from the society they live in and unhappy about not having much hope of a job, they feel let down by the country, helpless, and many will go off those rails that they need. This violence is sickening, and it makes me so sad to see our country fall to pieces.

 

Let this be a wake up call to Cameron that if you cut the police and vital services the end result is this..

 

I hope the army can be called in and tough sentences are handed for anyone involved in the riots. I'm preying this doesn't come to Southampton, but we have our gangs, maybe not in such a large number but they will jump on this at some point.

[CB Saint]

Funniest thing I have read so far this morning (and let's face it with the financial markets and riots we could all do with a laugh)

 

"Iran called for London police to exercise self-restraint in dealing with protesters in Tottenham, north of London. Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast referred to Saturday night's massive protests in Tottenham, which came following [the killing] of a young black man by Scotland Yard police and called for the UK government to avoid any police's harsh treatment with protesters. He stressed return of peace and calm to London through talks and examining demands of the demonstrators. Mehmanparast expressed hope independent human rights bodies would take measures to make clear facts behind murder of the black man soon. "

 

Iran urging restraint WTF??

[stevegrant]

Funniest thing I have read so far this morning (and let's face it with the financial markets and riots we could all do with a laugh)

 

"Iran called for London police to exercise self-restraint in dealing with protesters in Tottenham, north of London. Iranian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast referred to Saturday night's massive protests in Tottenham, which came following [the killing] of a young black man by Scotland Yard police and called for the UK government to avoid any police's harsh treatment with protesters. He stressed return of peace and calm to London through talks and examining demands of the demonstrators. Mehmanparast expressed hope independent human rights bodies would take measures to make clear facts behind murder of the black man soon. "

 

Iran urging restraint WTF??

I assume he's taking the ****, given that we've spent the past ****-knows-how-many years meddling in Iran's domestic affairs.

[JackanorySFC]

I'm really sorry that you don't understand that crimes against society are just that. The argument could be put that the mobsters see the upper echelons of society behaving illegally or immorally and think 'I'll have some of that'.

 

lol these are not "crimes against society", these are filthy little hood rats recognising the Police are stretched so nicking booze, getting steaming drunk then going on the rob to get the sort of chavvy c*** they aspire to own (Nando's chicken ffs, JD Sports clothing, anything from Currys) for nothing.

 

These kids don't watch the news, they get their info' from their mobiles (twitter, facebook bbm etc), they havn't got a clue what the reasons are behind the initial protest they just want free stuff and are prepared to injure Police and innocent passers by in the process.

 

I'm really sorry that this isn't a good old fashioned anti-establishment poll tax/ miners 'esqe riot/ protest - it's purely scummy little delinquants ammusing themselves by going on the rob and smashing stuff up.

[saintbletch]

Would you rather live next door to a banker, MP, Journo, policeman or feral hoodrat? The first 4 groups have made mistakes but the latter is violent. Never seen a banker, MP, Journo or copper throwing bricks, torching cars, smashing front doors through to residential homes or looting personally?

 

Absolutely shocking analogy, still stunned you can defend these scum. I've got plenty of mates that grew up in housing estates as bad as the hood rats on tele that have worked hard, refused benefits/ gang culture that have got good jobs and families. There are NO EXCUSES to riot.

 

No Dad - don't care, join the club

Poor housing - don't care, get a job, earn some money and get a better house

Bad school - don't care, no such thing as a "bad school" in 2011 Britain, rough schools yes but inspirational teachers at every school desperate to help disadvantaged kids

Ethnic monority - don't care, appreciate the opportunities this great country gives you and take advantage

No prospects - don't care - see above, loads of opportunities

 

There's no "understanding" to be had with these little villains, the irony here is the "hug a hoodie" brigade that want to listen to them etc etc would be the first to get robbed/ assaulted etc by these vile cretins if they went on to their estates and offered "help".

 

ANYONE can be ANYTHING in 21stC Britain, just go to school, work hard, be good to your fellow man and make your own luck regardless of your circumstances, fortunately 000's of hard working kids prove you and other liberal bed wetters wrong by getting off the estates, avoiding gangs and setting themselves up with rewarding and or/ lucrative careers.

 

No excuses.

 

Agree with bits of that, disagree with most.

 

But it seems like you've just re-stated the problem.

 

Other than a lot of chest-beating rhetoric and an implied "they should all just magically and instantly be a little bit more like me and the mates I grew up with", other than time travel to go back and instil this doctrine at an earlier age, I don't really see how you plan to make this happen to solve the problem we face now.

 

Given that we are where we are, and given that the opportunity to instil some of the values you sensibly argue should be possessed, has passed, what would you do to solve the wider problem JackanorySFC?

 

I'll say up front that I've no idea what concrete steps to take to solve the problem we have. But I'd start by looking for a cause, no matter how painful a process that might be for our society.

 

But what would you do to bring about the change in attitude you've outlined above?

[JackFrost]

according to the BBC website it's spread to Oxford and Reading

[bridge too far]

lol these are not "crimes against society", these are filthy little hood rats recognising the Police are stretched so nicking booze, getting steaming drunk then going on the rob to get the sort of chavvy c*** they aspire to own (Nando's chicken ffs, JD Sports clothing, anything from Currys) for nothing.

 

These kids don't watch the news, they get their info' from their mobiles (twitter, facebook bbm etc), they havn't got a clue what the reasons are behind the initial protest they just want free stuff and are prepared to injure Police and innocent passers by in the process.

 

I'm really sorry that this isn't a good old fashioned anti-establishment poll tax/ miners 'esqe riot/ protest - it's purely scummy little delinquants ammusing themselves by going on the rob and smashing stuff up.

 

I agree with you. It's copy-cat, mobbing, bundling...... But why? I would never have done something like this, and I bet you wouldn't either. So why do they? Why do groups of youths (usually, although I did spot a fat, middle-aged man running off with something up his top on the news last night) feel the need to behave like this? Are they bored? Do they have no role models? Or do they think that if others can get away with it, then they'll give it a go.

 

Youths hunt in packs, regardless of their colour or status. It's always been that way - not as extreme as this but, as you point out, information is more readily available these days. Which is why I referred, ages ago, to football fights, Teddy Boys, Spivs, Mods and Rockers and the Bullingdon club. Young (men generally) have always been in 'gangs' to destroy stuff.

[JackFrost]

The Welfare system was far more in place under a labour Government and when labour were in power did you see riots? No because despite labours flaws they wanted to try and bridge the gap between the rich and the poor. All this latest bunch of morons we call a government has done is cut young peoples support. EMA, Raising tuition fee's, cutting jobs, youth clubs etc, and even police numbers.

 

When many people are unemployed and dissaccosiated from the society they live in and unhappy about not having much hope of a job, they feel let down by the country, helpless, and many will go off those rails that they need. This violence is sickening, and it makes me so sad to see our country fall to pieces.

 

Let this be a wake up call to Cameron that if you cut the police and vital services the end result is this..

 

I hope the army can be called in and tough sentences are handed for anyone involved in the riots. I'm preying this doesn't come to Southampton, but we have our gangs, maybe not in such a large number but they will jump on this at some point.

 

or did they sow the seeds of decadence and promote the culture of people thinking their automatically entitled to something for nothing, which the Tory government is stamping out and we're seeing the consequences

 

Answers on a postcard

[pap]

Other than a lot of chest-beating rhetoric and an implied "they should all just magically and instantly be a little bit more like me and the mates I grew up with", other than time travel to go back and instil this doctrine at an earlier age, I don't really see how you plan to make this happen to solve the problem we face now.

 

Given that we are where we are, and given that the opportunity to instil some of the values you sensibly argue should be possessed, has passed, what would you do to solve the wider problem JackanorySFC?

 

I'll say up front that I've no idea what concrete steps to take to solve the problem we have. But I'd start by looking for a cause, no matter how painful a process that might be for our society.

 

But what would you do to bring about the change in attitude you've outlined above?

 

Brilliant in bold.

 

That's the problem saintbletch - these people have no answers. Sure, they call for harsher punishment, but that'll only work in the short term.

 

This country needs to sort its priorities out, and ensuring that our young people have decent opportunities should be priority number one. A lot of the posts here are predicated on a utopian egalitarian society which simply doesn't exist.

[stevegrant]

I'll say up front that I've no idea what concrete steps to take to solve the problem we have. But I'd start by looking for a cause, no matter how painful a process that might be for our society.

I would start by getting hold of all the Blackberry messenger logs from the last few days, identifying all of the people responsible for sending the messages which were essentially organising this disorder.

 

It'll be nigh-on impossible to catch those responsible for the looting, there's simply too many people and very little in the way of identifying evidence, as the vast majority were hooded/masked up. Some of them will have left fingerprints at the scene, take the video of the kids breaking into Ladbrokes at Clapham Junction, it didn't look like any of them wore gloves, and they were trying (and mostly failing) to pull a TV off the wall. Should be plenty of fingerprints there, and very little chance of claiming they got there during normal activity, i.e. going in the bookies to put a bet on. Go round all the schools and colleges, get fingerprints off everyone and cross-reference.

 

They've got to start somewhere.

[stevegrant]

This country needs to sort its priorities out, and ensuring that our young people have decent opportunities should be priority number one.

Isn't this part of the problem, that young people automatically assume they're going to be handed "opportunities" on a plate without actually having to put in any effort?

 

The pikey **** the Sky reporter confronted in Clapham last night summed it up perfectly when she claimed that she was "getting our taxes back" - I would wager serious money that she's never paid a penny in tax in her life. generalisation>