Tottenham riots

[dune]

Reading through some of the news coverage on this, its hard to tell if a lot of the most serious rioters have been/will be caught or if it is mainly the opportunists that came along at the end with the chance to nick something? Most of the original rioters doing the serious damange had their faces well covered up, hoods up etc, I really can't see how most of them will successfully be prosecuted?

 

And even those with their faces uncovered will be hard to identify. It was dark when the rioting took place.

[Turkish]

"Waaaah!"

 

"What is it, Turkish?"

 

"Waaah!"

 

"Is it that Liberal Elite again?"

 

"Waaah!"

 

"Have they been hitting you again?"

 

"Sniff. Ye-ye-yes. With well reasoned arguments!"

 

You're wasted on this forum. That is brilliant. Funny, original and topical. I like it. Did you make it up yourself?

 

Although you'll have to point me to the places where i have reacted like this, as i am struggling to think of any. Persumably you're talking about well reasoned arguements like Super Mikeys yesterday. no experience, no first hand knowledge, just all what he had read somewhere.

Edited 11 August, 2011 by Turkish

[Barry the Badger]

I will never understand why people with differing points of view cannot debate an issue without it turning into this.

 

This was quite an interesting read up until about 3 days ago.

[dune]

I will never understand why people with differing points of view cannot debate an issue without it turning into this.

 

This was quite an interesting read up until about 3 days ago.

 

The Liberal Elite are incapable of debate. They are born to give sermons and everyone else should listen in awe of their words.

[Verbal]

You're wasted on this forum. That is brilliant. Funny, original and topical. I like it. Did you make it up yourself?

 

Although you'll have to point me to the places where i have reacted like this, as i am struggling to think of any. Persumably you're talking about well reasoned arguements like Super Mikeys yesterday. no experience, no first hand knowledge, just all what he had read somewhere.

 

Why don't you and your odd little mate dune just get on and focus on the thread rather than these silly ad hominem attacks?

[This Charming Man]

I was just walking around Manchester city centre and walked passed two blokes who looked like they'd been badly beaten up and set on fire in the riots. Then I realised it was just Carlos Tevez and Joleon Lescott.

[pap]

You're wasted on this forum. That is brilliant. Funny, original and topical. I like it. Did you make it up yourself?

 

That's ok mate. My activities are not confined to this forum.

 

Although you'll have to point me to the places where i have reacted like this, as i am struggling to think of any. Persumably you're talking about well reasoned arguements like Super Mikeys yesterday. no experience, no first hand knowledge, just all what he had read somewhere.

 

So you want me to trawl all your posts looking for specific evidence of where you might have done this? That is going to happen. For the sake of brevity, let's just assume that you're totally in the right and that I have to face the collective anger of the forum for jumping to such insane conclusions.

 

Personally, I'd just like to judge posts on a post-by-post basis and see a little less entrenchment in viewpoints. Things are rarely simple, rarely black and white, rarely left or right.

[pap]

Why don't you and your odd little mate dune just get on and focus on the thread rather than these silly ad hominem attacks?

 

To be fair, I was calling Turkish out on that. He has every right to respond.

[Turkish]

To be fair, I was calling Turkish out on that. He has every right to respond.

 

Yeah Verbal, engage brain before you type and read the thread properly first. FFS.

[dune]

Yeah Verbal, engage brain before you type and read the thread properly first. FFS.

 

 

I don't think anyone actually reads Verbals posts tbh.

[pap]

 

I don't think anyone actually reads Verbals posts tbh.

 

I do.

 

Before you point out the folly of this, I also read yours.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

The Liberal Elite are incapable of debate.

 

Satire was dead along time ago but Dune is attempting to petrify it into rock.

[SuperMikey]

You're wasted on this forum. That is brilliant. Funny, original and topical. I like it. Did you make it up yourself?

 

Although you'll have to point me to the places where i have reacted like this, as i am struggling to think of any. Persumably you're talking about well reasoned arguements like Super Mikeys yesterday. no experience, no first hand knowledge, just all what he had read somewhere.

 

What, so you don't think that black people are disadvantaged in this society? That's the general point that I was making, although I got a bit lost along the way trying to keep up with the bizarre stuff posted on that thread.

[Gemmel]

What, so you don't think that black people are disadvantaged in this society? That's the general point that I was making, although I got a bit lost along the way trying to keep up with the bizarre stuff posted on that thread.

 

Black or White, have the same human rights, the same benefits system, the same healthcare system, the same education system, the same voting rights, the same housing rights, the same legal rights and so on.

 

How are they disadvanged in this society? I think most would accept that racsism still exists to a degree, so on that basis i could understand where they could be, but it is cetainly not to the extent or degree that would see such disproportinate numbers of black people rioting.

 

The only really tangible disadvantge would come through employment, if employers would rather employ a white man as opposed to a black man. I am sure there are still some saddo's that would think or act like that, but ethnicity is monitored closely by most companies (And also the vast number of employers just don't think like that) for it to be of any real significance.

 

I think the problems lie a bit deeper and not sure this forum is up to a reasonable / rational debate on it

[SuperMikey]

Black or White, have the same human rights, the same benefits system, the same healthcare system, the same education system, the same voting rights, the same housing rights, the same legal rights and so on.

 

How are they disadvanged in this society? I think most would accept that racsism still exists to a degree, so on that basis i could understand where they could be, but it is cetainly not to the extent or degree that would see such disproportinate numbers of black people rioting.

 

The only really tangible disadvantge would come through employment, if employers would rather employ a white man as opposed to a black man. I am sure there are still some saddo's that would think or act like that, but ethnicity is monitored closely by most companies (And also the vast number of employers just don't think like that) for it to be of any real significance.

 

I think the problems lie a bit deeper and not sure this forum is up to a reasonable / rational debate on it

 

How so?

[Verbal]

How so?

 

I think he means 'genetics'.

[SuperMikey]

I think he means 'genetics'.

 

That's what I thought, was hoping he could elaborate on that particular point though... quite a drastic conclusion to draw.

[Gemmel]

That's what I thought, was hoping he could elaborate on that particular point though... quite a drastic conclusion to draw.

 

Yes, Genetics, but there are to many bed wetters on here who make acqusations of rascism, as soon as anyone mentions the word "Black" or dares to suggest anything that doesn't adhere to their own political correctness.

 

Its not just on here, it's everywhere. The PC brigade have almost made Racism a taboo subject and it simply fuels ignorance and distrust of anything other than a white Englishman.

[SuperMikey]

Yes, Genetics, but there are to many bed wetters on here who make acqusations of rascism, as soon as anyone mentions the word "Black" or dares to suggest anything that doesn't adhere to their own political correctness.

 

Its not just on here, it's everywhere. The PC brigade have almost made Racism a taboo subject and it simply fuels ignorance and distrust of anything other than a white Englishman.

 

Heaven forbid that racism should be frowned upon

 

It is a very drastic conclusion to say that black people are inherently criminal though, how should the colour of your skin dictate your criminality? I would attribute it more to social factors like deprivation, poverty etc. rather than skin colour. Crime levels are high right across the board of ethnicities in high-deprivation areas such as the areas where these riots are taking place.

[Gemmel]

Heaven forbid that racism should be frowned upon

 

It is a very drastic conclusion to say that black people are inherently criminal though, how should the colour of your skin dictate your criminality? I would attribute it more to social factors like deprivation, poverty etc. rather than skin colour. Crime levels are high right across the board of ethnicities in high-deprivation areas such as the areas where these riots are taking place.

 

That's not what I meant (In terms that black people are inherently criminal), However (And not inherently) their culture for a lot of young black men does seem to be based around "yardie gang" mentality, which in tun very often leads to criminality.

 

Now whether deprivation, poverty etc drives them to this, is another question, but going back to your earlier piont of them being disadvantaged in our society, but having the same education, rights and benefits as everyone else, surely the answer then lies in why so many of them are in situations of poverty / deprivation ?

 

And to come full circle, racisim is not at rife enough to be the single contributory factor.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

That's not what I meant (In terms that black people are inherently criminal), However (And not inherently) their culture for a lot of young black men does seem to be based around "yardie gang" mentality, which in tun very often leads to criminality.

 

Now whether deprivation, poverty etc drives them to this, is another question, but going back to your earlier piont of them being disadvantaged in our society, but having the same education, rights and benefits as everyone else, surely the answer then lies in why so many of them are in situations of poverty / deprivation ?

 

And to come full circle, racisim is not at rife enough to be the single contributory factor.

 

It is well known that there is little social mobility in the UK.

[Verbal]

Yes, Genetics, but there are to many bed wetters on here who make acqusations of rascism, as soon as anyone mentions the word "Black" or dares to suggest anything that doesn't adhere to their own political correctness.

 

Its not just on here, it's everywhere. The PC brigade have almost made Racism a taboo subject and it simply fuels ignorance and distrust of anything other than a white Englishman.

 

Racism a taboo subject? Do you mean race? No it's not taboo. It's just tired old tosh - the kind of tosh that led to the disgusting Tuskagee experiments (google it), and many others in the now hopelessly discredited history of eugenics in the US in particular.

 

If you can find a single respected professional geneticist to stand up an argument that there is a genetic cause to the riots, please go right ahead.

[Verbal]

That's not what I meant (In terms that black people are inherently criminal), However (And not inherently) their culture for a lot of young black men does seem to be based around "yardie gang" mentality, which in tun very often leads to criminality.

 

Now whether deprivation, poverty etc drives them to this, is another question, but going back to your earlier piont of them being disadvantaged in our society, but having the same education, rights and benefits as everyone else, surely the answer then lies in why so many of them are in situations of poverty / deprivation ?

 

And to come full circle, racisim is not at rife enough to be the single contributory factor.

 

So if we accept for the moment your underlying assumption that the UK is a socialist nirvana where there is no inequality, what are you suggesting?

[Verbal]

It seems that neither the Met nor local residents appreciated the violence against the police offered up from the EDL as 'help'.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024707/UK-riots-2011-Met-Polices-Tim-Godwin-warns-EDL-hijack-vigilante-patrols.html

[hypochondriac]

It seems that neither the Met nor local residents appreciated the violence against the police offered up from the EDL as 'help'.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024707/UK-riots-2011-Met-Polices-Tim-Godwin-warns-EDL-hijack-vigilante-patrols.html

 

Interesting that you use the Daily Mail as a source yet when it has an article you disagree with, you dismiss it completely.

[Gemmel]

Racism a taboo subject? Do you mean race? No it's not taboo. It's just tired old tosh - the kind of tosh that led to the disgusting Tuskagee experiments (google it), and many others in the now hopelessly discredited history of eugenics in the US in particular.

 

If you can find a single respected professional geneticist to stand up an argument that there is a genetic cause to the riots, please go right ahead.

 

What the flying fook has the tuskagee experiments got anything to do with racism being a taboo subject?? If you are trying to win an argument or prove a point, at least make it relevant.

 

I truly belive that rascism is fuelled by ignorance and the continual silence on subjects such as immigration, race etc. The silence is born from the fear of being labled a rascist and the polticians are too scared to open debate.

 

I suppose in this instance I am reffering to immigration, more than rascism, but in mnay peoples eyes, they are linked.

[Turkish]

It seems that neither the Met nor local residents appreciated the violence against the police offered up from the EDL as 'help'.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024707/UK-riots-2011-Met-Polices-Tim-Godwin-warns-EDL-hijack-vigilante-patrols.html

 

But the mail is a racist paper, it's read by people like Dune, you can't trust anything it says. Or can you when suits now?

Edited 11 August, 2011 by Turkish

[MatthewStiles]

Good article in the Guardian about Tariq Jahan. And I loved this comment, just for the EDL:

"So it turns out that the one man who spoke for Britain this week, who defended the essential decency that George Orwell saw as the defining characteristic of Britain, is a Muslim. That should give us all pause for serious and humble thought."

[Verbal]

What the flying fook has the tuskagee experiments got anything to do with racism being a taboo subject?? If you are trying to win an argument or prove a point, at least make it relevant.

 

I truly belive that rascism is fuelled by ignorance and the continual silence on subjects such as immigration, race etc. The silence is born from the fear of being labled a rascist and the polticians are too scared to open debate.

 

I suppose in this instance I am reffering to immigration, more than rascism, but in mnay peoples eyes, they are linked.

 

Well you're the one who wanted to go down this road. As soon as you start playing with 'genetics' it leads to the Tuskagee experiments - which are about how syphilis affects the 'genetically different' black man. The experiment, which continued until 1972, involved deliberately injecting syphilis into 'subjects', not telling them about it, and leaving them untreated for decades. All in the name of a eugenic theory that blacks are genetically inferior to whites.

[dune]

Yes, Genetics, but there are to many bed wetters on here who make acqusations of rascism, as soon as anyone mentions the word "Black" or dares to suggest anything that doesn't adhere to their own political correctness.

 

Its not just on here, it's everywhere. The PC brigade have almost made Racism a taboo subject and it simply fuels ignorance and distrust of anything other than a white Englishman.

 

Correct, but I think it's fair to say that this forum has more than it's fair share of left wing oddballs ready to cry to the mods if anyone dares to broach the subject. You only have to look at the likes of Thorpe le saint and AndyNorthernSaints for posters that squeal to the mods at every opportunity. I could make the point that blacks do very well at running events, but the Liberal Elite would soon start squealing if I was to expand on differences in other areas...

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Correct, but I think it's fair to say that this forum has more than it's fair share of left wing oddballs ready to cry to the mods if anyone dares to broach the subject. You only have to look at the likes of Thorpe le saint and AndyNorthernSaints for posters that squeal to the mods at every opportunity. I could make the point that blacks do very well at running events, but the Liberal Elite would soon start squealing if I was to expand on differences in other areas...

 

But dunce the point you make there is proven by science; it is all to do with muscle fibres.

 

Any point you would make after it would simply be your own racist view.

[LGTL]

Point already been made..

Edited 11 August, 2011 by LGTL
..

[LGTL]

Have we really started talking about whether black people are physiologically adapted to the extent that they are more likely to commit crime or be involved in rioting?? It's pretty ridiculous.

[Saint_Pedro]

Read this and weep:

 

"Funniest" interview ever on Sky. Female Sky reporter interviewing a white guy who has had his shops burned. He said to her , the arsonists/looters were all black. She said to him , you can’t say that , there must have been white guys there as well. He thought about and then said , ok they were not all black , i was the only white guy there. Is that ok to say ?

 

This guy states this with a totally dead pan face without a hint of the pc faux pas.

 

She again corrects him and states nervously you just cant say they were all black , he responds , but they were i was there.

 

Unbelievable. The interview describes the state of our society in a nut shell.

 

And the second is an aside – that the BBC bears some responsibility for fanning the flames of these riots.

 

The IPCC have announced two things. First, Duggan’s firearm was a firearm and thus illegal and deadly. Second, he didn’t fire it, and the initial report by the IPCC that he fired at police was wrong. The BBC have headlined the second fact without the first. Particularly dangerous in the circumstances, especially from a public service broadcaster.

 

I think we can most of us agree that things need to change round here.

Edited 11 August, 2011 by Saint_Pedro
better put the word funniest in quote so people don't get the wrong idea ....

[Saint_Pedro]

Away from the racist angle for a minute ... what will happen to those convicted? The text below is from Delingpole's blog (not my words)

 

Well, for those over eighteen whatever custodial sentences they do receive, if any, they will no doubt serve just a fraction of their sentences as is common for most criminals in the UK. However, in what will clearly be a perversion of justice, those rioters under eighteen will be treated as if they too are the victims of the very crimes they have commited, as this is the ethos at the heart of the youth justice system. I know this from having worked alongside and in the Youth Offending Service. Within a few weeks many of these rioters that you are now watching loot, burn and terrorise on a twenty four news channel will be on an Intensive Surveillance and Supervision Programme, where they will spend the majority of their ’sentence’ being escorted to gyms, adventure centres, DJ courses and having their lunches bought and paid for and they will even be given the bus fares to attend their ‘punishment’. There will be a minimum of community work as part of their ISSP and in some parts of the country the Youth Offending Service will fail to implement this part of the ISSP. I know this will occur because I have seen it first hand. Another part of their ISSP will involve them sitting in on classroom based sessions where staff will ask them what feelings they were experiencing prior to setting their community alight and how best they could channel those feelings in the future. We may even get them to do some ‘poster work’, as I have heard it referred to, where they will draw and colour in examples of criminal behaviour just in case they were not aware that torching local businesses and throwing masonry at the police, fire brigade and passers by were indeed criminal acts. When this is the system charged with preventing youth crime is at any wonder we have such high rates of recidivism amongst the more serious of young criminals? Many of the rioters you see on the streets will have been through this sytem. They know there are no real consequences for their actions and thus they behave in the manner we are now viewing.

 

Comments anyone ..... ?

[dune]

But dunce the point you make there is proven by science; it is all to do with muscle fibres.

 

Any point you would make after it would simply be your own racist view.

 

Mods, mods please stop Thorpie calling me dunce. Boo hoo.

 

*put's on Thorpies act*

 

You're a like a little kid. Totally incapable of engaging in an adult discussion.

[solentstars]

Correct, but I think it's fair to say that this forum has more than it's fair share of left wing oddballs ready to cry to the mods if anyone dares to broach the subject. You only have to look at the likes of Thorpe le saint and AndyNorthernSaints for posters that squeal to the mods at every opportunity. I could make the point that blacks do very well at running events, but the Liberal Elite would soon start squealing if I was to expand on differences in other areas...

you forgot to use your other catch phrases marxists,socialists to go with liberal elite:)

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Mods, mods please stop Thorpie calling me dunce. Boo hoo.

 

*put's on Thorpies act*

 

You're a like a little kid. Totally incapable of engaging in an adult discussion.

 

Ah I see, deflect attention away from the point I made that proves you really have no clue what you're talking about. Well done sir.

Edited 11 August, 2011 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[solentstars]

But the mail is a racist paper, it's read by people like Dune, you can't trust anything it says. Or can you when suits now?

dune is more upmarket he reads the daily express

[LGTL]

I love science. No opinion, no ideology, just plain, clear facts.

[dune]

Ah I see, deflect attention away from the point I made that proves you really have no clue what you're talking about. Well done sir.

 

I feel suitably told off. I now know how those imaginery Saints fans at Leyton orient felt.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

I feel suitably told off. I now know how those imaginery Saints fans at Leyton orient felt.

 

Once again, well deflected.

[LGTL]

Dune, do you think black males are physiologically adapted as to be more likely involved? Do you reckon there are clear scientifc reasons why, in your opinion, they are more likely to be involved in a riot then a white person?

[Turkish]

dune is more upmarket he reads the daily express

 

It's alright I'm sure BTF will soon correct verbal for using an article in "the daily racist" like she has done to others in the past when they have used it in an attempt to prove a point. We wouldnt want any double standards would we.

[dune]

Dune, do you think black males are physiologically adapted as to be more likely involved? Do you reckon there are clear scientifc reasons why, in your opinion, they are more likely to be involved in a riot then a white person?

 

I refer you back to my earlier post:

 

Correct, but I think it's fair to say that this forum has more than it's fair share of left wing oddballs ready to cry to the mods if anyone dares to broach the subject. You only have to look at the likes of Thorpe le saint and AndyNorthernSaints for posters that squeal to the mods at every opportunity. I could make the point that blacks do very well at running events, but the Liberal Elite would soon start squealing if I was to expand on differences in other areas...

[LGTL]

The reason I asked you was because I read that post!

 

Blacks do do well at running events, and that's backed up by clear science, so why would anyone kick up a fuss about that? There isn't clear science behind what you appear to be suggesting though, which is why I asked. If you think there is science behind it, but you don't wish to discuss it for whatever reason, then righteo.

[dune]

The reason I asked you was because I read that post!

 

Blacks do do well at running events, and that's backed up by clear science, so why would anyone kick up a fuss about that? There isn't clear science behind what you appear to be suggesting though, which is why I asked. I don't really know why you referred me back to it but never mind.

 

What do I appear to be suggesting?

[Verbal]

The reason I asked you was because I read that post!

 

Blacks do do well at running events, and that's backed up by clear science, so why would anyone kick up a fuss about that? There isn't clear science behind what you appear to be suggesting though, which is why I asked. If you think there is science behind it, but you don't wish to discuss it for whatever reason, then righteo.

 

I don't know that even that is true. 'Blacks' as a broad category are no better or worse. The fastest short-distance black runners in world athletics tend to be of West African descent and from the US and the Caribbean. If there were some biological component to their being faster than whites, say, then today's West Africans, from the countries the slave trade operated in, such as Mali and Senegal would also be up there in the medal positions. They are, however, nowhere near.

 

It's not 'natural selection' that leads to black US and Caribbean runners being faster - it's bad old human intervention. To be targeted as a slave, you had to be healthy and otherwise physically marketable. Then you had to be strong enough to survive the awful slave ships. And finally you had to be strong enough to live through the life of a slave on the plantations. After all this, is it any surprise that the descendants of people who been through all this turned out to have been selected for better than average physical attributes lie short-distance speed?

[Verbal]

What do I appear to be suggesting?

 

Who the **** knows. The fact that you don't doesn't surprise me.

[LGTL]

It's a shame this has turned into a race debate, as the problems in society run far deeper then that.

 

Back to the riots, Spurs v Everton has been postponed. As per usual the minority spoil it for the majority.

Edited 11 August, 2011 by LGTL