Tottenham riots

[saintbletch]

Football violence has no link to this. Smashing up opposing fans has no resemblance, whether ideologically or otherwise, to smashing up your community and random businesses. Terrible analogy.

 

That would be an terrible analogy if I had attmpted to make it.

 

Sorry egg but did you read the article and did you read my question?

 

I asked

 

I wonder if they can relate to the comments about people losing their moral identity, empathy and guilt in a large group?

 

I didn't' suggest that there was any ideological link.

 

I specifically asked if those that had been involved in football violence felt the same loss of moral identity, empathy and guilt when in a large group.

 

I make no connection at all between football violence and the rioting except to wonder whether the same sort of intoxication and change in emotional state happens.

[Sour Mash]

For the sake of argument, I'll take you on face value that there are plenty of jobs available, in London at least. I think you need to read my posts again tho. Where have I done a disservice to poor, working class kids from council estates? I'm one myself.

 

That said, part of your analysis is correct. There are a lot of people who don't see the point in working, because it doesn't pay. Let's look at your cleaning and gym jobs, for example. Are they paying much more than minimum wage? Is minimum wage enough to make your way in London? If someone is one the dole, and their choice is between getting a massive rent paid by housing benefit, or doing a minimum-wage job for 40 hours a week on the bones of their ar-se, it's not a hard choice to make.

 

I think it is you that needs to reread my post- I did not say that the jobs available didn't pay. I said that teenage kids look at working in McDs or an evening cleaning job in an office as uncool and not worth the effort involved. Why graft for 5 hours of an evening, when you can rob a passerby for a mobile phone or steal from your local shops in 10 minutes? You do a massive disservice to the hard-wroking, law-abiding poor, as you make excuses for those rioting due to them being "poor" - when there are plenty of other people from "poor" backgrounds that somehow find it possible to keep to the law, work hard and do their best to better their lives without being c***s to those around them. If you're 17 years old, what overheads do you have? The vast majority will live at home with their folks. Many in subidised city centre location council properties. London has endless estates in gret locations tht I'd love to live in, great access into all central locations, plenty of stuff to see and do for free and the majority of these estates are full of people very lucky to have heavily subsidised/free accommodation in such great locations. London has loads of opportunities for those bothered to get off their @rse and graft for them.

[saintbletch]

"need or scarcity of means of subsistence; needy circumstances" what does that have to do with what has happened over the last three/four days?

 

It's a little difficult debating this without having to refer back to things I've already written on this thread and I appreciate you probably haven't read through it all.

 

It's also a little difficult if you're going to selectively quote me.

 

Somehow, you managed to omit:

 

The state or condition of being poor

 

from the definition I supplied to you from wordnik.

 

So when I used the term poverty it was that which I was referring to and as shurlock helpfully pointed out below, poverty is not an absolute condition.

 

Now I'll ask something of you if that's OK.

 

The problem is the whole culture of kids growing up thinking "why should I do a s**ty job like that, much easier/cooler to rob/steal from others"

 

You wrote that.

 

I wrote

 

What if these people don't want to change, don't want to join the society that you and I know, don't want to f*****g WORK?

 

So it seems that we both agree where the problem lies and it now seems you've see that when you suggested that "f*****g WORK!" was the solution, it was a little simplistic.

 

So what do we do as a society to move people away from seeing law breaking as a way to get what they want in life and towards a socially acceptable way of generating wealth?

[egg]

That would be an terrible analogy if I had attmpted to make it.

 

Sorry egg but did you read the article and did you read my question?

 

I asked

 

 

 

I didn't' suggest that there was any ideological link.

 

I specifically asked if those that had been involved in football violence felt the same loss of moral identity, empathy and guilt when in a large group.

 

I make no connection at all between football violence and the rioting except to wonder whether the same sort of intoxication and change in emotional state happens.

 

I did read the article. It wasn't enlightening. Please see #745.

 

You mentioned football violence in the same context as riots (on a riot thread) so I took it that you were somehow linking the two distinct issues. You were also questioning the mindset etc of football thugs as against rioters.

 

There is a world of difference between football violence and this kind of rioting, and imo a world of difference in the mindset of those involved.

[Turkish]

Really depends on the employer, and fair play to those that do try to take a punt. Certain convictions, particularly theft or fraud, can pretty much throw your job prospects out of the window.

 

On your second point, you're actually quite aligned with Verbal. People want instant gratification, or can't be a*sed with the effort. Tallies with his point on desire.

 

Doesn't stop people going into trades or industries where this doesn't matter though. There are 1000's of career paths out there. Prison and probation provide support on this. People have such great expectiations of how much they should earn and the careers they should have. The average wage in this country is about £25k, yet there is talk of benefits being capped at £25k. There really is no incentive for people to to work in lower paid jobs. There is a poor work ethic and high expectiton and materialistic culture in our country.

[shurlock]

I think it is you that needs to reread my post- I did not say that the jobs available didn't pay. I said that teenage kids look at working in McDs or an evening cleaning job in an office as uncool and not worth the effort involved. Why graft for 5 hours of an evening, when you can rob a passerby for a mobile phone or steal from your local shops in 10 minutes? You do a massive disservice to the hard-wroking, law-abiding poor, as you make excuses for those rioting due to them being "poor" - when there are plenty of other people from "poor" backgrounds that somehow find it possible to keep to the law, work hard and do their best to better their lives without being c***s to those around them. If you're 17 years old, what overheads do you have? The vast majority will live at home with their folks. Many in subidised city centre location council properties. London has endless estates in gret locations tht I'd love to live in, great access into all central locations, plenty of stuff to see and do for free and the majority of these estates are full of people very lucky to have heavily subsidised/free accommodation in such great locations. London has loads of opportunities for those bothered to get off their @rse and graft for them.

 

Subsidised city centres -thinking anywhere in particular? Can name you more f**king dumps.

[Sour Mash]

It's a little difficult debating this without having to refer back to things I've already written on this thread and I appreciate you probably haven't read through it all.

 

It's also a little difficult if you're going to selectively quote me.

 

Somehow, you managed to omit:

 

 

 

from the definition I supplied to you from wordnik.

 

So when I used the term poverty it was that which I was referring to and as shurlock helpfully pointed out below, poverty is not an absolute condition.

 

Now I'll ask something of you if that's OK.

 

 

 

You wrote that.

 

I wrote

 

 

 

So it seems that we both agree where the problem lies and it now seems you've see that when you suggested that "f*****g WORK!" was the solution, it was a little simplistic.

 

So what do we do as a society to move people away from seeing law breaking as a way to get what they want in life and towards a socially acceptable way of generating wealth?

 

Zero tolernace to law breaking? You decide you can't be @rsed to work? Decided you'd rather rob, steal and riot? Fine, but no 2nd chances, no ifs or buts, make it clear from a young age, you break the law like this, you go to jail. I know that's a massively unfashionable comment, but the softly, softly approach that this country has taken for years, clearly hasn't worked. Outreach workers, community funding, efforts to "understand have clearly failed. Youths will multiple convictions only being sent down after the 7th/8th/9th fairly serious crime? It failed, didn't work. Make it clear - work hard and you can have a decent life, commit crime and you'll be f****d - it's not hard really.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Correct you do. However, there are companies out there that will take a punt on you if you are prepared to work hard and start at the bottom and show a bit of humility. There are always opportunites out there if you are prepared to take them. Another problem with these little mugs is their arrogance, they dont want to graft, dont want to work their way up, they want it all now and expect the rewards without putting in the effort.

 

...and this is where the parents should have stepped in years ago and taught them the value of things.

[dubai_phil]

So what do we do as a society to move people away from seeing law breaking as a way to get what they want in life and towards a socially acceptable way of generating wealth?

 

You have to undo their entire lives and influences to date. The "sub-culture" is ingrained from an extremely early age, I want it all & I want it now.

 

We can make this thread longer than the poopey take over saga if we keep debating the different angles, slants, social, media, music, education, motivation side of the equation.

 

The simple fact is that successive "generations" of Politicans Leaders & Society have led to this sub-culture. It may have 1,000 or it may have 1,000,000 "followers". The simple FACT is that it now exists. It is the Yoof Culture of today in the same way that SkinHeads, Mods, Rockers, NF, and hell, even Donny Osmond fans were the culture of the past. This culuture is different, it is a nothing culture and the "kids" have grown up in that and "we" have stood aside and let it develop.

 

You cannot simply eradicate that overnight. You simply cannot lock these kids up for 10 years "until they mature enough to see differently". You simply cannot force them to work in McD's 40 hours a week. That is as insane as those back in the 60's & 70's demanding a return of National Service.

 

These people have no respect for Britain, they have no respect for it's values or it's identity. They are, like many before them over time, "A lost generation". They simply won't suddenly "Get It"

 

The wooly apologist Liberals & the Hug a Hoodie brigade are as much a barrier to change as the loony lock them up brigades.

 

They have no feeling for Society. To them Society does not exist.

 

The only "cure" is to rebuild those values, that identity and a stake in "Society"

 

And the problem is when "Society" sees Greedy Bankers, Goodwin on a million a year pension, MP's getting out in 4 months after Fraud, Teenaged kids suddenly driving Porshce's & earning 2.5 million a year because they happen to be able to kick a football. Not a single piece of inspiration for ANY of them to change.

 

The Silent Majority are disgruntled, lectured at, undermined, told what is good for them and acquiese.

 

In some ways the kids are revolting on their behalf against the system.

 

The only cure is time and a sea change of attitudes. How about starting with Education is for Society and for you to better yourself, than targets & political correctness.

 

Wring hands, get Boris out there with a brush and sweep it all under the carpet, keep job, appear on TV a lot and forget it all and continue to rape the country until the next time this kicks off - that's what will really happen after all of this

Edited 10 August, 2011 by dubai_phil

[Sour Mash]

Subsidised city centres -thinking anywhere in particular? Can name you more f**king dumps.

 

No end of zone 2 (London travel) locations that have loads of massive housing estates full of subidised council homes. Islington, Southwark, Battersea, Clapham, great areas, with one of the greatest cities in the world on their doorstep. I know lads that grew up on council blocks of flats in the Borough of Camden that were literally in Covent Garden. Locations that a normal working person paying rent, could never, ever afford privately. That is a massive advantage for finding work - subsidised housing in central city locations, while many others have to do an hour+ expensive commute every day.

[saintbletch]

I did read the article. It wasn't enlightening. Please see #745.

 

Yes apologies egg but I didn't see your reply until after I had sent my post

 

You mentioned football violence in the same context as riots (on a riot thread) so I took it that you were somehow linking the two distinct issues. You were also questioning the mindset etc of football thugs as against rioters.

 

Unless you read it with an agenda, I'm not sure it's ambiguous. But you tell me it is so I'll respect that.

 

There is a world of difference between football violence and this kind of rioting, and imo a world of difference in the mindset of those involved.

 

Have you been involved in football violence? If so then thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

If not then with respect your opinions aren't important, in the same way that mine aren't either.

 

I still wonder whether someone who has been caught up in the emotion of a scuffle at a football match and has acted in a way that is very different from the way they would behave on their own, can relate to what the article said about people changing when in a group.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, even if I feel or felt that this sort of group effect was involved in the rioting/looting, it doesn't change my view that it is wrong and should be punished. I am simply looking to understand some of the causal factors that made large sections of our youth take the streets and loot.

[saintbletch]

Zero tolernace to law breaking? You decide you can't be @rsed to work? Decided you'd rather rob, steal and riot? Fine, but no 2nd chances, no ifs or buts, make it clear from a young age, you break the law like this, you go to jail. I know that's a massively unfashionable comment, but the softly, softly approach that this country has taken for years, clearly hasn't worked. Outreach workers, community funding, efforts to "understand have clearly failed. Youths will multiple convictions only being sent down after the 7th/8th/9th fairly serious crime? It failed, didn't work. Make it clear - work hard and you can have a decent life, commit crime and you'll be f****d - it's not hard really.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and directly answering the question.

 

It might just work. And I'm not about coming down hard of people - it it's a solution. Solution, there is an important word.

 

But I can't help thinking that a) we wouldn't be able to build enough prisons and b) the peers and families of those who had been imprisoned would simply feel further apart from society and would continue in their ways.

[OldNick]

. I am simply looking to understand some of the causal factors that made large sections of our youth take the streets and loot.

It is very simple, they could, as law had broken down. I suggest there will be quite a few who do regret it now, and fearing that their picture may be put up by the authorities.There will be many parents who will be ashamed what their offspring got up to, many won't give a toss.

 

In a way I still feel a bit guilty as I look at the seat i took from the Dell that day. The stadium was looted by people who would never do such things normally. There i was pulling my seat out, not because i thought it was mine, but because the rest of the fans were and the police stood and watched.. Shameful, as i was with my daughter who would have been only 11-12

 

As an aside i thought Hazel Blears was very good when interviewed today, (I normally have no time for her) she tried making no party political points, but stated she was going to try and get the parents prosecuted as well as the young kids.

[Sour Mash]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and directly answering the question.

 

It might just work. And I'm not about coming down hard of people - it it's a solution. Solution, there is an important word.

 

But I can't help thinking that a) we wouldn't be able to build enough prisons and b) the peers and families of those who had been imprisoned would simply feel further apart from society and would continue in their ways.

 

Agreed that that there is no easy answer and no one single "cure", guess a combination of approaches, just about getting the balance right.

[pap]

I think it is you that needs to reread my post- I did not say that the jobs available didn't pay. I said that teenage kids look at working in McDs or an evening cleaning job in an office as uncool and not worth the effort involved. Why graft for 5 hours of an evening, when you can rob a passerby for a mobile phone or steal from your local shops in 10 minutes? You do a massive disservice to the hard-wroking, law-abiding poor, as you make excuses for those rioting due to them being "poor" - when there are plenty of other people from "poor" backgrounds that somehow find it possible to keep to the law, work hard and do their best to better their lives without being c***s to those around them. If you're 17 years old, what overheads do you have? The vast majority will live at home with their folks. Many in subidised city centre location council properties. London has endless estates in gret locations tht I'd love to live in, great access into all central locations, plenty of stuff to see and do for free and the majority of these estates are full of people very lucky to have heavily subsidised/free accommodation in such great locations. London has loads of opportunities for those bothered to get off their @rse and graft for them.

 

I'm not making excuses for them rioting. I'm saying that society, by ignoring this problem, has helped to create it. You're saying that kids would rather rob than clean because it's cooler and not worth the effort.

 

I'm saying that for many, it doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

Poverty has a part to play, sure. But just because you're poor doesn't make you a rioter, and there are no excuses for the sort of criminality that have gone on in the past few days. There are reasons though, and unless we examine the causes, we're doomed to a repeat performance.

 

So please don't mistake people looking for root causes as "making excuses". It's really not the same thing. At some point, some of our kids have decided that it's perfectly okay to wreak havoc on major population centres. To me, that says that society at large has failed - and that we should look at how we got here, with the firm objective of making sure that it never happens again.

[shurlock]

No end of zone 2 (London travel) locations that have loads of massive housing estates full of subidised council homes. Islington, Southwark, Battersea, Clapham, great areas, with one of the greatest cities in the world on their doorstep. I know lads that grew up on council blocks of flats in the Borough of Camden that were literally in Covent Garden. Locations that a normal working person paying rent, could never, ever afford privately. That is a massive advantage for finding work - subsidised housing in central city locations, while many others have to do an hour+ expensive commute every day.

 

Fair enough, though if you're living in the south or east of London, you'd probably want to live outside Zone 2 -large parts of which are bandit country once you consider everything else going on inc public services. Lived a while around Southwark/Surrey Quays - and wouldn't swap it anyday for my current place, even though its further out.

[Sour Mash]

Fair enough, though if you're living in the south or east of London, you'd probably want to live outside Zone 2 -large parts of which are bandit country once you consider everything else going on inc public services. Lived a while around Southwark/Surrey Quays - and wouldn't swap it anyday for my current place, even though its further out.

 

Depends which bits - of course some parts are grim and some estates I wouldn't want to live in - but all have very easy access to areas with abundant work and stuff to see and do - they are great locations to live in for overall opportunities. Subsidised housing within 10/15mins journey to the city centre of one of the biggest/best cities in the world is an opportunity. I would have much more sympathy for people stuck out on a sink estate on the outskirts of Hartlepool, Wrexham, Burnley - I would have a bit more understanding (although wouldn't go as far as agreeing with it) for the "lack of opportunites argument" for youths growing up in places like that.

[Wade Garrett]

Zero tolernace to law breaking? You decide you can't be @rsed to work? Decided you'd rather rob, steal and riot? Fine, but no 2nd chances, no ifs or buts, make it clear from a young age, you break the law like this, you go to jail. I know that's a massively unfashionable comment, but the softly, softly approach that this country has taken for years, clearly hasn't worked. Outreach workers, community funding, efforts to "understand have clearly failed. Youths will multiple convictions only being sent down after the 7th/8th/9th fairly serious crime? It failed, didn't work. Make it clear - work hard and you can have a decent life, commit crime and you'll be f****d - it's not hard really.

 

Absolutely spot on. Look at rehabilitation while they're in jail, but don't lose sight that they are being punished. Make jail a 'little less cosy' than it is at the moment.

[Sour Mash]

I'm not making excuses for them rioting. I'm saying that society, by ignoring this problem, has helped to create it. You're saying that kids would rather rob than clean because it's cooler and not worth the effort.

 

I'm saying that for many, it doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

Poverty has a part to play, sure. But just because you're poor doesn't make you a rioter, and there are no excuses for the sort of criminality that have gone on in the past few days. There are reasons though, and unless we examine the causes, we're doomed to a repeat performance.

 

So please don't mistake people looking for root causes as "making excuses". It's really not the same thing. At some point, some of our kids have decided that it's perfectly okay to wreak havoc on major population centres. To me, that says that society at large has failed - and that we should look at how we got here, with the firm objective of making sure that it never happens again.

 

I agree that it shows that as a society as a whole we have failed. The reasons and/or solutions I think we'd disagree on though.

[Sour Mash]

Absolutely spot on. Look at rehabilitation while they're in jail, but don't lose sight that they are being punished. Make jail a 'little less cosy' than it is at the moment.

 

Simple formula - make the thought of committing a crime/going to jail etc less appealing than grafting in a dull, tough job. At the moment too many youths are happy to choose one way of life over the other.

[trousers]

Lots of people (politicians, media, football forum contributors, etc) are now rightly entering root cause analysis mode...

 

Does all this mean I no longer need to feel guilty about the discipline and punishments (within legal parameters) that I've exercised at home with my two children over the last 15 years?

 

I'm off to bolt all the open stable doors up and down the length of the country. I may be some time....

Edited 10 August, 2011 by trousers

[saintbletch]

I'm not making excuses for them rioting. I'm saying that society, by ignoring this problem, has helped to create it. You're saying that kids would rather rob than clean because it's cooler and not worth the effort.

 

I'm saying that for many, it doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

Poverty has a part to play, sure. But just because you're poor doesn't make you a rioter, and there are no excuses for the sort of criminality that have gone on in the past few days. There are reasons though, and unless we examine the causes, we're doomed to a repeat performance.

 

So please don't mistake people looking for root causes as "making excuses". It's really not the same thing. At some point, some of our kids have decided that it's perfectly okay to wreak havoc on major population centres. To me, that says that society at large has failed - and that we should look at how we got here, with the firm objective of making sure that it never happens again.

 

Good post pap.

[saintbletch]

You have to undo their entire lives and influences to date. The "sub-culture" is ingrained from an extremely early age, I want it all & I want it now.

 

We can make this thread longer than the poopey take over saga if we keep debating the different angles, slants, social, media, music, education, motivation side of the equation.

 

The simple fact is that successive "generations" of Politicans Leaders & Society have led to this sub-culture. It may have 1,000 or it may have 1,000,000 "followers". The simple FACT is that it now exists. It is the Yoof Culture of today in the same way that SkinHeads, Mods, Rockers, NF, and hell, even Donny Osmond fans were the culture of the past. This culuture is different, it is a nothing culture and the "kids" have grown up in that and "we" have stood aside and let it develop.

 

You cannot simply eradicate that overnight. You simply cannot lock these kids up for 10 years "until they mature enough to see differently". You simply cannot force them to work in McD's 40 hours a week. That is as insane as those back in the 60's & 70's demanding a return of National Service.

 

These people have no respect for Britain, they have no respect for it's values or it's identity. They are, like many before them over time, "A lost generation". They simply won't suddenly "Get It"

 

The wooly apologist Liberals & the Hug a Hoodie brigade are as much a barrier to change as the loony lock them up brigades.

 

They have no feeling for Society. To them Society does not exist.

 

The only "cure" is to rebuild those values, that identity and a stake in "Society"

 

And the problem is when "Society" sees Greedy Bankers, Goodwin on a million a year pension, MP's getting out in 4 months after Fraud, Teenaged kids suddenly driving Porshce's & earning 2.5 million a year because they happen to be able to kick a football. Not a single piece of inspiration for ANY of them to change.

 

The Silent Majority are disgruntled, lectured at, undermined, told what is good for them and acquiese.

 

In some ways the kids are revolting on their behalf against the system.

 

The only cure is time and a sea change of attitudes. How about starting with Education is for Society and for you to better yourself, than targets & political correctness.

 

Wring hands, get Boris out there with a brush and sweep it all under the carpet, keep job, appear on TV a lot and forget it all and continue to rape the country until the next time this kicks off - that's what will really happen after all of this

 

Good points dubai_phil.

 

I agree that it is a complex issue and that sound-bite solutions on both sides of the political divide are just that.

[trousers]

• 1125: Prime Minister David Cameron
   
  We needed a fight back and a fight back is under way.
  
• 1125: Prime Minister David Cameron
   
  says police told him at the Cobra meeting that they had the resources they need.
  
• 1119: Prime Minister David Cameron
   
  On police funding: We won't do anything that will reduce the amount of visible policing on our streets.
  
• 1117: Prime Minister David Cameron
   
  There is evidence that a more robust approach to policing in London resulted in a quieter night in the capital.
  
• 1115: Prime Minister David Cameron
   
  There are more police, more people being arrested, more people being charged and prosecuted.
  
• 1114: Breaking News Prime Minister David Cameron
   
  Nothing is off the table. There are contingency plans for water cannon to be used at 24 hours notice.
  
• 1111:
   
  PM David Cameron, in statement in Downing Street, pays tribute to police and emergency services. "Picture by picture" these criminals are being arrested, and they will not let "phoney" concerns about publishing CCTV images breaching human rights get in the way, he says
  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

 

• 
  
• 
  

[trousers]

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.

 

Edited 10 August, 2011 by trousers

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

1132: BBC reporter at Highbury Magistrates Court tells BBC 5 live the first person who appeared in the dock this morning was a 31-year-old teacher called Alexis Bailey. She pleaded guilty to being part of the looting of the Richer Sounds store in Croydon.

 

 

What a ****ing moron. I would hope that the GTC tear her a new one, but they're toothless and ineffective so don't hold your breath.

Edited 10 August, 2011 by Thorpe-le-Saint

[saintbletch]

It is very simple, they could, as law had broken down. I suggest there will be quite a few who do regret it now, and fearing that their picture may be put up by the authorities.There will be many parents who will be ashamed what their offspring got up to, many won't give a toss.

 

In a way I still feel a bit guilty as I look at the seat i took from the Dell that day. The stadium was looted by people who would never do such things normally. There i was pulling my seat out, not because i thought it was mine, but because the rest of the fans were and the police stood and watched.. Shameful, as i was with my daughter who would have been only 11-12

 

As an aside i thought Hazel Blears was very good when interviewed today, (I normally have no time for her) she tried making no party political points, but stated she was going to try and get the parents prosecuted as well as the young kids.

 

Thanks for sharing your own thoughts OldNick on the Dell 'looting' and your rationalisation of what was 'technically' theft.

 

It's not the same thing as the rioting at all, but I suspect some of the same rationalisation processes are involved with some of the youth.

 

That is an interesting view from Hazel Blears - who I suspect I have even less time for than you.

 

But for those that are not completely committed to a life of crime, and are just on the cusp, who do have parent(s) who are strong enough to control their kids, that might just have an impact.

[Sour Mash]

Thanks for sharing your own thoughts OldNick on the Dell 'looting' and your rationalisation of what was 'technically' theft.

 

It's not the same thing as the rioting at all, but I suspect some of the same rationalisation processes are involved with some of the youth.

 

That is an interesting view from Hazel Blears - who I suspect I have even less time for than you.

 

But for those that are not completely committed to a life of crime, and are just on the cusp, who do have parent(s) who are strong enough to control their kids, that might just have an impact.

 

Anyone who would even think about comparing the last game at the Dell to what we've seen in the last three or four days in any way, shape or form must be off their head on crack. Is this a wind-up that I don't get?

[thesaint sfc]

Police need to be given more powers so they are respected - rather than constantly having to worry about doing too much or not doing enough.

 

I completely agree 100% with Phil about the sub-cultures and how they have materialised over time and there is nothing we can do to change people in that culture now - only to try and change the younger generation who have not been sucked into the culture into being decent human beings. However taking all this into account, if these morons in this culture knew that the Police wouldn't take sh*t from them - they wouldn't f*ck with them. Instead the Police have one of the most frustrating jobs in the world to do where they can't do anything right.

[Verbal]

if these morons in this culture knew that the Police wouldn't take sh*t from them - they wouldn't f*ck with them. Instead the Police have one of the most frustrating jobs in the world to do where they can't do anything right.

 

If this were true, you wouldn't have riots every Bastille Day in Paris and other major French cities. The CRS in France have a free hand to break heads. If anything, it's made things worse. Adding some of the accoutrements of a police state - like a CRS-like paramilitary response force - tend only to entrench attitudes that lead to this kind of collapse in social order. It was after all the shoot-first-ask-questions-later perception which ignited all this in the first place.

 

We have to be cleverer than that.

 

The policing in my borough - Hammersmith and Fulham - was effective. Take a leaf out of their book.

[pap]

You have to undo their entire lives and influences to date. The "sub-culture" is ingrained from an extremely early age, I want it all & I want it now.

 

We can make this thread longer than the poopey take over saga if we keep debating the different angles, slants, social, media, music, education, motivation side of the equation.

 

The simple fact is that successive "generations" of Politicans Leaders & Society have led to this sub-culture. It may have 1,000 or it may have 1,000,000 "followers". The simple FACT is that it now exists. It is the Yoof Culture of today in the same way that SkinHeads, Mods, Rockers, NF, and hell, even Donny Osmond fans were the culture of the past. This culuture is different, it is a nothing culture and the "kids" have grown up in that and "we" have stood aside and let it develop.

 

You cannot simply eradicate that overnight. You simply cannot lock these kids up for 10 years "until they mature enough to see differently". You simply cannot force them to work in McD's 40 hours a week. That is as insane as those back in the 60's & 70's demanding a return of National Service.

 

These people have no respect for Britain, they have no respect for it's values or it's identity. They are, like many before them over time, "A lost generation". They simply won't suddenly "Get It"

 

The wooly apologist Liberals & the Hug a Hoodie brigade are as much a barrier to change as the loony lock them up brigades.

 

They have no feeling for Society. To them Society does not exist.

 

The only "cure" is to rebuild those values, that identity and a stake in "Society"

 

And the problem is when "Society" sees Greedy Bankers, Goodwin on a million a year pension, MP's getting out in 4 months after Fraud, Teenaged kids suddenly driving Porshce's & earning 2.5 million a year because they happen to be able to kick a football. Not a single piece of inspiration for ANY of them to change.

 

The Silent Majority are disgruntled, lectured at, undermined, told what is good for them and acquiese.

 

In some ways the kids are revolting on their behalf against the system.

 

The only cure is time and a sea change of attitudes. How about starting with Education is for Society and for you to better yourself, than targets & political correctness.

 

Wring hands, get Boris out there with a brush and sweep it all under the carpet, keep job, appear on TV a lot and forget it all and continue to rape the country until the next time this kicks off - that's what will really happen after all of this

 

Nice points, Phil.

 

Looks like we have a bit of a job on our hands, but in reality, your last point is probably how this will play out.

[OldNick]

Anyone who would even think about comparing the last game at the Dell to what we've seen in the last three or four days in any way, shape or form must be off their head on crack. Is this a wind-up that I don't get?

SM it does not compare, but I was trying to convey (badly as usual) that in the mass frenzy of watching my fellow fans ripping up the seats as well, i did involve myself in something that was a kind of looting as the authorities did nothing to stop it and I joined in. I would put myself as a normal decent citizen, but I lost sight of what i was doing and the wrong.

Iam totally against the looters but perhaps it showed that some of us can be drawn into these things, and whilst it would be seen as different, in a way I was robbing from my loved one and so may be seen as worse in a funny kind of way.

[Sour Mash]

SM it does not compare, but I was trying to convey (badly as usual) that in the mass frenzy of watching my fellow fans ripping up the seats as well, i did involve myself in something that was a kind of looting as the authorities did nothing to stop it and I joined in. I would put myself as a normal decent citizen, but I lost sight of what i was doing and the wrong.

Iam totally against the looters but perhaps it showed that some of us can be drawn into these things, and whilst it would be seen as different, in a way I was robbing from my loved one and so may be seen as worse in a funny kind of way.

 

You're either p****d or just generally off your head. "Mass frenzy of fans ripping up seats" - I was in block 5 of the Archers at the time (liveliest part of the Dell back then) and there was no "mass frenzy", nothing like it, calm, relaxed, having a laugh, unscrewing seats carefully to actually look after and value them for what they are (part of our history) - "the authorities stood by", becasue neither they, nor anyone else was bothered about it, becasue nothing wrong was happening. What a weird thing to bring up.

[Verbal]

Anyone who would even think about comparing the last game at the Dell to what we've seen in the last three or four days in any way, shape or form must be off their head on crack. Is this a wind-up that I don't get?

 

There is a connection. It's called disinhibition - what happens when the psychology of crowds overrules the kinds of moral imperatives that might normally restrain people from ripping things off. Looking at the social make up of the people appearing before the courts is quite revealing in this sense - a mix of professionals, students, people from the estates...all sorts, basically.

[JRM]

SM it does not compare, but I was trying to convey (badly as usual) that in the mass frenzy of watching my fellow fans ripping up the seats as well, i did involve myself in something that was a kind of looting as the authorities did nothing to stop it and I joined in. I would put myself as a normal decent citizen, but I lost sight of what i was doing and the wrong.

Iam totally against the looters but perhaps it showed that some of us can be drawn into these things, and whilst it would be seen as different, in a way I was robbing from my loved one and so may be seen as worse in a funny kind of way.

 

what the f*ck are you on??? Last game of the Dell was a celebration of our heritage, our ground, that was going to be KNOCKED DOWN and never be played in again by us, the seats were taken by fans as a souvenier and was peaceful and perfectly orderly, you complete an utter muppet trying to in anyway compare that to looting.

 

now, go and get your seat, slowly walk to southampton police station, and hand yourself in.

[Verbal]

what the f*ck are you on??? Last game of the Dell was a celebration of our heritage, our ground, that was going to be KNOCKED DOWN and never be played in again by us, the seats were taken by fans as a souvenier and was peaceful and perfectly orderly, you complete an utter muppet trying to in anyway compare that to looting.

 

now, go and get your seat, slowly walk to southampton police station, and hand yourself in.

 

Nicked one too then?

[JRM]

There is a connection. It's called disinhibition - what happens when the psychology of crowds overrules the kinds of moral imperatives that might normally restrain people from ripping things off. Looking at the social make up of the people appearing before the courts is quite revealing in this sense - a mix of professionals, students, people from the estates...all sorts, basically.

 

b*llocks, don't try and portray a cross-section of society, there will be some exceptions but this was mostly kids off the estates, many of which are part of or connected to gangs.

and anyone comparing taking their seat from the Dell is a lost cause beyond words for being a complete nutcase

[Verbal]

b*llocks, don't try and portray a cross-section of society, there will be some exceptions but this was mostly kids off the estates, many of which are part of or connected to gangs.

and anyone comparing taking their seat from the Dell is a lost cause beyond words for being a complete nutcase

 

Don't let the sand get in your ears.

[JRM]

Nicked one too then?

 

hilarious.

don't try and distract the debate on scum looting our shops and communites with saints last game as the Dell, it's pathetic, and you should be ashamed for trying to.

[Verbal]

hilarious.

don't try and distract the debate on scum looting our shops and communites with saints last game as the Dell, it's pathetic, and you should be ashamed for trying to.

 

So did you?

[Sour Mash]

There is a connection. It's called disinhibition - what happens when the psychology of crowds overrules the kinds of moral imperatives that might normally restrain people from ripping things off. Looking at the social make up of the people appearing before the courts is quite revealing in this sense - a mix of professionals, students, people from the estates...all sorts, basically.

 

I take it you were at the Dell that day? Tell us all about the mob scenes that you saw

Edited 10 August, 2011 by Sour Mash

[JRM]

So did you?

 

you are clearly a wind up merchant

 

did you go to the game?

[JRM]

I take it you were at the Dell that day? Tell us all about the mob scens that you saw

 

do you rememeber that young saints fan on the floor bleeding, being picked up so people could take stuff from his bag and mug him? and then setting fire to the junior saints office?

[ecuk268]

Interesting copper's view on the situation.

 

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/

 

He points out that officers asked for assurance that they would not be "served up like PC Harwood" if they charged the rioters and a rioter was injured.

 

Senior officers would not give that assurance.

Edited 10 August, 2011 by ecuk268

[Verbal]

you are clearly a wind up merchant

 

did you go to the game?

 

So yes or no? (And the last game I saw at the Dell was Arsenal)

[saintbletch]

b*llocks, don't try and portray a cross-section of society, there will be some exceptions but this was mostly kids off the estates, many of which are part of or connected to gangs.

and anyone comparing taking their seat from the Dell is a lost cause beyond words for being a complete nutcase

 

Assuming that you're not just on a wind-up.

 

I think you're missing the point.

 

Not wanting to speak for OldNick but I think he's saying that in the cold light of day HE, PERSONALLY felt it was wrong to have taken his seat in front of his daughter - according to his own moral compass.

 

I don't think OldNick is moralising or sitting in judgement about other people's behaviour.

 

What you, Sour Mush or I think about taking seats from a defunct stadium isn't important to Nick's argument. He's talking from HIS OWN PERSPECTIVE.

 

Now, looking back I think OldNick is saying that something in the moment overpowered what HE, PERSONALLY would have done if others weren't also doing the same.

 

I also think that OldNick is suggesting that in some way the rioters, at least those that weren't completely hardened criminals, may have gone through a similar change of moral perspective.

[Verbal]

Assuming that you're not just on a wind-up.

 

I think you're missing the point.

 

Not wanting to speak for OldNick but I think he's saying that in the cold light of day HE, PERSONALLY felt it was wrong to have taken his seat in front of his daughter - according to his own moral compass.

 

I don't think OldNick is moralising or sitting in judgement about other people's behaviour.

 

What you, Sour Mush or I think about taking seats from a defunct stadium isn't important to Nick's argument. He's talking from HIS OWN PERSPECTIVE.

 

Now, looking back I think OldNick is saying that something in the moment overpowered what HE, PERSONALLY would have done if others weren't also doing the same.

 

I also think that OldNick is suggesting that in some way the rioters, at least those that weren't completely hardened criminals, may have gone through a similar change of moral perspective.

 

Exactly. The psychology of crowds.

[dubai_phil]

Interesting copper's view on the situation.

 

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/

 

He points out that officers asked for assurance that they would not be "served up like PC Harwood" if they charged the rioters and a rioter was injured.

 

Senior officers would not give that assurance.

 

Yep. Interesting

[OldNick]

Assuming that you're not just on a wind-up.

 

I think you're missing the point.

 

Not wanting to speak for OldNick but I think he's saying that in the cold light of day HE, PERSONALLY felt it was wrong to have taken his seat in front of his daughter - according to his own moral compass.

 

I don't think OldNick is moralising or sitting in judgement about other people's behaviour.

 

What you, Sour Mush or I think about taking seats from a defunct stadium isn't important to Nick's argument. He's talking from HIS OWN PERSPECTIVE.

 

Now, looking back I think OldNick is saying that something in the moment overpowered what HE, PERSONALLY would have done if others weren't also doing the same.

 

I also think that OldNick is suggesting that in some way the rioters, at least those that weren't completely hardened criminals, may have gone through a similar change of moral perspective.

Thanks Bletch, exactly what i was trying to convey.

The Dell was going to be demolished, there was going to be an auction to sell the seats etc. The mob took over that day and i saw even the seats in the dug out being carried away. It was not our property and could be seen as looting. Normal decency was left behind as people ripped out the seats anyway the could. You are right that perhaps (not excusing it in anyway) that some may have been dragged into the looting in London etc, who would never normally do so

Edited 10 August, 2011 by OldNick

[Sour Mash]

So yes or no? (And the last game I saw at the Dell was Arsenal)

 

Gutted, as was excited about hearing the reports of vandalism and robbery that day, innocent people intimidated and property owners gutted by the destruction of their property. All I can remember is everyone having a laugh together, stewards and club officials happy for people to take what they want and the club seeing the day as a massive success and a great day in our history Don't ever post about Saints or Saints fans again, you utter, utter cretin.