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Tottenham riots

Saint-scooby

By Saint-scooby,
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holepuncture

holepuncture

Posted
Posted
Welcome to the Liberal world.

 

Thanks guys

 

Multiculturalism, where cultures are forced to integrate to enable the middle class liberals to discuss the merits of diversity, from a nice little suburb!

 

Can't believe the police are allowing the Nottingham derby to go ahead after last nights trouble.

 

and... LEEDS vs BRADFORD!

 

i see a football factory style revolt where the bushwhackers come out to defend Bermondsy etc...

 

mind you, the clean up operation has begun:

 

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I note a clear majority of white people here. Just an observation mind!

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shurlock

shurlock

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Nothing to do with a liberal world - people getting a buzz from kicking off and getting one over the OB and the feeling of invincibility and unaccountability that comes with being in a crowd. Throw in the fact that the pursuit of risky behaviour is pronounced amongst the youth (that's what the neuroscientists tell us anyway), its not totally surprising or unfamiliar. Whether you're a small-state Tory who believes in the mythic liberties of the Englishman or a bleeding heart, wrap'em in cotton wool Liberal, there has always been an aversion to using force. But once the OB blinked, lost its credibility and showed that it was there for the taking, the writing was on the wall.

 

As far as environment is concerned, it would be naive to say that it doesn't matter -of course, it does- but people ultimately have choices.

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shurlock

shurlock

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Posted

 

She ain't got a clue if she's pointing approvingly to decent and law-abiding Japan which happens to be one of the most homogenous and, dare I say it, egalitarian countries on the planet.

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saintbletch

saintbletch

Posted
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If you see, though, Marco was responding to the post which aligned these problems to the fact that the rioters are being left to rot in ghettos. As somebody who grew up in a council house, he can compare himself to them inasmuch as it not being purely due to the environment that they are doing this.

 

Your points about right/wrong are entirely valid, Marco (I believe) was trying to counter the argument that it is because of these people coming from ghettos and being 'left to rot' that they are commiting crime, rather than the actual reason which you note, which is of being taught morality from the family life.

 

That's a fair clarification on the context of St. Marco's comments Capital Saint.

 

But I think my wider point still stands. The area where you are born/raised is less important than the family environment you're brought up in. Statistically I believe there is a strong correlation between where you live and family breakdown. Perhaps by using the term 'left to rot in a ghetto', pap was including all of the likely social implications of living in a ghetto and not just the location.

 

But someone who does well from a 'Council Estate' background that had the support and backing of a family (I don't know whether St. Marco did or didn't) has had an advantage over someone in the same situation but without a stable family influence.

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Smirking_Saint

Smirking_Saint

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The police lost their power long ago, people question every attempt they have had in attempting to quell acts of disorder with force with questions and accusations.

 

You only have to look at the Student protests to see what happens when they attempt to deal with anything.

 

The past few nights they have done nothing but stand and watch, knowing that any show of force on their part would result in inquiries etc etc.

 

When we started putting the rights of criminals over the safety of the general public we pretty much gave the green light for this to happen.

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trousers

trousers

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Posted
The police lost their power long ago, people question every attempt they have had in attempting to quell acts of disorder with force with questions and accusations.

 

You only have to look at the Student protests to see what happens when they attempt to deal with anything.

 

The past few nights they have done nothing but stand and watch, knowing that any show of force on their part would result in inquiries etc etc.

 

When we started putting the rights of criminals over the safety of the general public we pretty much gave the green light for this to happen.

 

Indeed. The police are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted
The roots of these appalling events are many and tangled, but for the moment let’s just focus on one: the way Britain’s educational establishment has cringed helplessly in the face of a gang culture that rejects every tenet of liberal society. It’s violent, it’s sexist, it’s homophobic and it’s racist. But it is broadly tolerated by many people in the black community, which has lost control of its teenage youths. Those youths scare the wits out of teachers and social workers – and some police officers, too. The threat of physical violence is ever present in many schools, and one can hardly blame individual teachers for recoiling from it. But we should and must blame those schools and education authorities that have made extra space for gang culture in children’s lives because they believe it is an authentic expression of Afro-Caribbean and Asian identity. We've seen a lot (but not all) of black faces on our TV screens; it’s a shame that the spotlight can’t also fall on those white multiculturalists who made this outrage possible

 

Spot on. An out of control culture that has been allowed to flourish for far too long in our nation's cities.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
The police lost their power long ago, people question every attempt they have had in attempting to quell acts of disorder with force with questions and accusations.

 

You only have to look at the Student protests to see what happens when they attempt to deal with anything.

 

The past few nights they have done nothing but stand and watch, knowing that any show of force on their part would result in inquiries etc etc.

 

When we started putting the rights of criminals over the safety of the general public we pretty much gave the green light for this to happen.

 

Dare I say it, even on the march back from the Plymouth game, there was some c**t from our lot who was gobbing off and the testing the limits of the OB, confident it would give him free reign. You could just tell he wouldn't have been giving it the big i am if the OB was following different procedures.

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Verbal

Verbal

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Indeed. The police are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

No, merely damned. The shame of this is that the riots happened predominantly in London, probably the worst led, poorest managed, accident prone of all police forces in the UK. The dreadful sight of police in full riot gear sitting on their hands was because they were spread too thinly and waiting for instructions about what six could do against 200. My nephew was on duty for the Met in Tottenham the last two nights. He and his colleagues don't lack confidence or certainty about what to do - they just have find themselves sent in small numbers to do little more than be a presence.

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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted
Twitter's a difficult one due to re-tweets, the use of sarcasm/parody for comedic purposes, etc.

 

It seemed as though the disorder has mostly been organised via BBM - gone are the days when a Blackberry was the sole preserve of a business executive wanting to be able to pick up their emails at all times; now the main attraction is the messenger feature, it's instant, you not only get a notification that the user has received the message, you also get one when they've READ the message (unlike delivery reports with text messages, which only do the former), and it's generally included within the data allowances on your mobile contract. Whenever I'm on a tram in Croydon, it's always Blackberry phones that the kids are playing with.

 

BBM is a much more private means of communication, messages are only sent to people who you have a connection with, which you set up with a PIN that is unique to each handset. If these people have set up a wide network of communications with groups across London to organise widespread violent disorder, it really shouldn't be too hard to pin charges on them. The messages aren't for public broadcast, that's why they're sent on a private network rather than via Twitter or Facebook, and that's why they were able to overpower the police in so many different parts of the city.

 

What are you on about Steve? Don't you know all these people are really poor? How could they all afford Blackberrys?

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gaz

gaz

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BBC News said that the courts are dealing with a lot of those charged today. Backgrounds range from Students, to Graduates, shop workers, ''people with no criminal history''. Most pleaded guilty, and a fair proportion gave their addresses as not from London, some ''a considerable distance away''.

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stevegrant

stevegrant

Posted
Posted
What are you on about Steve? Don't you know all these people are really poor? How could they all afford Blackberrys?

:lol:

 

One of the most profound Twitter posts I've read today: "Only in the UK could someone wearing £100 trainers use a £300 smartphone to organise a riot while pleading poverty".

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trousers

trousers

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Posted
No, merely damned. The shame of this is that the riots happened predominantly in London, probably the worst led, poorest managed, accident prone of all police forces in the UK. The dreadful sight of police in full riot gear sitting on their hands was because they were spread too thinly and waiting for instructions about what six could do against 200. My nephew was on duty for the Met in Tottenham the last two nights. He and his colleagues don't lack confidence or certainty about what to do - they just have find themselves sent in small numbers to do little more than be a presence.

 

And if they had been sent in large numbers they would have been accused of over reacting....

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't

 

Just an opinion mind you.

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St Marco

St Marco

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As did I, but like me, you probably grew up on a council estate in a time when it was easier to get out of one.

 

Seeing as i am only 30 i would say it was pretty recent....unless a lot has changed in the last 10 years or so? I didn't say it was easy to get out of it i am simply saying that it is not as bad as you and people try and make out. You make it sound like Warsaw or some shanti house in Ethiopia when it is nothing like that. There is electricity, there is water, there is heating, there are toilets etc the main comforts are exactly the same as if you were rich. The council get's slated a lot these days but they help out a lot. You get your rent paid for you if you earn little, you get different deals on things like gas and electricity to take into account your income. Your parents/carer/whoever looks after you get child support/income support if you have no money. If you cannot afford to clothe yourself charities will help out or you can get a social payment to buy them. You can even get budgeting loans of around £400 to pay for items etc

 

Even back then, there were horror stories on our estate. My immediate family were not well off, but I benefited from having a large extended family that took part in my upbringing and encouraged me in the right way. Not all are so lucky, and if you spend your entire childhood with adults who are abusive, criminal or both - I'd say that your life chances are considerably worse.

 

Don't get me wrong there are plenty of horror stories i could tell you. Back in the late 80s to early 90s it was really bad. So bad that they decided to build a police station right next to it. But since then it has changed a lot. People grow up and move on. The following generation as i mentioned earlier just hang out at bus shelters, they cause mess. They don't go out and actually stab people, steal cars (although it happens). They are nothing like those we see on tv today.

 

 

Times have changed. I grew up in a single-parent family, and back in the 1980s, that was pretty rare. Now it is almost the norm on my old estate.

I grew up with one parent too, but i assure you it was not rare in the 80s, it is very common and even more so now. Growing up without a dad or a mum does not mean you will grow up into being a mindless adult who must go on the rampage to deal with their issues. Think about the generations of families who grew up after world war 2 without parents. Did they turn out to be like the brats you see today?

 

 

 

You say you grew up on a council estate, yet you make this point?

Good trainers and devices are not an indication of wealth. Most of the kids on my estate had good trainers and for the time, relatively modern computers. Most of the trainers were nicked, or 'hot', as it was termed back then. Most of the computers were either nicked or paid for out of the proceeds of drug trafficking. You can buy a lot if you have a quarter of dope to trade.

Which council estate did you grow up on? The Eton overflow?

 

See these comments make me wonder if you did grow up on one because the whole "everything is nicked" thing is wrong. You make it sound like everyone who is there are criminals which goes against your whole argument. Most people from council estates are decent people. There is a form of a community there.

When we were growing up if we did wrong we would get in the **** by the older people. Sure there was stuff that was nicked but that was done by the few, that isn't anything to do with being on a council estate. They wouldn't advertise it was nicked...It isn't this "have to steal" mentality that you try and portray. That seems like you been watching way too much tv. I spent a lot of my younger years around the flowers estate. Hardly the "Eton" but then moved to Ridgemede when my parent got a job in Bishops Waltham.

I am not ashamed of where i grew up as it made me who i am today. And i am not someone who needs to go out stealing from old ladies because i am bored or don't feel apart of society. If you give those people an excuse they will use it. You just keep giving them more excuses.

You try to portray that people who are from there have no hope and that they don't have a chance to amount to anything. Which is a wrong stereotype as a lot of the friends i grew up with have gone on to be very succesful. One of them being a top lawyer in london. As i said before if you want to be something you have to put in the effort. That is the same with everything at life. If your a top footballer it is because you practice and put the effort into it.

 

Just a bit sad that you've forgotten where you come from. I'm not asking you to condone all of this. I can't condone it myself.

 

As i said before i know where i came from. Being there made me want to get out of it. That is enough incentive for anyone.....you sould like you are trying to glorify it ot something. You are painting everyone with the same brush which is just plain wrong. For every kid who is out there looking for trouble there are loads who are at home staying out of trouble. You are trying to label a whole generation on what a small minority do which again makes me believe you have not come from an estate at all. There is trouble everywhere. There will always be trouble when so many people are crammed into a small space. It has nothing to do with a lost generation or anything like that....

 

On a similar note, I'm not forgiving of the people that are causing trouble now. I am very concerned about it, and would like to stop it happening again. You would suggest that we just label them as scum. I would prefer to solve the problem.

 

Again as i said above you implying that a whole generation of people are the same. You are trying to put a group of people who are out there commiting crimes into the same group as those who are at home being a responsible person. The people who are out there looting and putting lives at risk are scum. The people of the same age group who are not out there doing that are not scum. That is one of the issues the do gooders can't seem to understand. They think that every kid who is around the ages of 12 to say 20 is the same. Like they are mindless robots off the conveyour belt. They are all out there feeling the same angers, the same lost feeling etc when it is nothing like that.

These are nothing more the opportunist kids who are out there destroying places and looting them simply because nobody is stopping them. When the police confront them they vanish and then appear somewhere else. There is no political side to it, no reason to it other then to try and steal anything they can. It is not a protest.

 

So yep, bleat on here about how you're a council estate kid made good all you like and join the club, mate. A lot of us came off council estates. The difference is that some of us remember what they're like.

 

I have not bleat on about being a council estate kid who made good. I have never used where i came from as an excuse for my behaviour. You obviously have. I was brought up to respect other people, to respect other peoples property, to not go around causing pointless trouble, to know that if i want something that maybe other families have that i have to work hard and save up for those things. Make some sacrifices. Most people who come from a council estate are decent people. Around 99% will be law abiding people who understand the realities of where they are and know that to change that they have to work hard as it won't be given to you. Those things are not taught to you, they are things you know from being a decent human being. If you go away from that and decide your better off being out there commiting crimes then as i said before you should accept the consequences of your actions.

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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
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:lol:

 

One of the most profound Twitter posts I've read today: "Only in the UK could someone wearing £100 trainers use a £300 smartphone to organise a riot while pleading poverty".

 

Exactly. You know my thoughts on the issue and what p****s me off even more than those that riot are the pathetic excuses some come out with to somehow justify it "they're poor", "Tory government" "outside of society" - no they're just rotten little scrotes that love to hunt in packs, throw their weight around at any given opportunity and take whatever they can out of the world without putting a single thing back in.

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Smirking_Saint

Smirking_Saint

Posted
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The misuse of the word Anarchy annoys me. Anarchy doesn't mean chaos. It simply means without state(or rule). Whether that is chaos is down to the individual political leanings, though personally I think it could be pretty chaotic.

 

You wouldn't say they were acting without rule then ?

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Verbal

Verbal

Posted
Posted (edited)
And if they had been sent in large numbers they would have been accused of over reacting....

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't

 

Just an opinion mind you.

 

No, that's not my point. The Met have a dreadful track record for having a tin ear for how to respond. whether it's kettling 15 year olds or standing by watching as rioters take over. By saying ' ho hum, damned if they do, damned if they don't', you're simply excusing their management failures. The cops on the ground know what's needed; their overseers do not.

Edited by Verbal
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Verbal Kint

Verbal Kint

Posted
Posted
they're just rotten little scrotes that love to hunt in packs, throw their weight around at any given opportunity and take whatever they can out of the world without putting a single thing back in.

 

Surely the point made is that whilst that may be true, there must be a reason(s) why these youngsters are like that. Poor parenting? A lack of education? Ostracised from society? Poverty?

 

It strikes me as strange that people who are calling these kids yobs and scum don't seem to want to address why they are turning out to be yobs and scum

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capitalsaint

capitalsaint

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Posted
Surely the point made is that whilst that may be true, there must be a reason(s) why these youngsters are like that. Poor parenting? A lack of education? Ostracised from society? Poverty?

 

It strikes me as strange that people who are calling these kids yobs and scum don't seem to want to address why they are turning out to be yobs and scum

 

Because it's easier. Exposure to materialism mixed with a poor work ethic.

 

It doesn't strike me as particularly strange- If you witnessed a murder, would you wait until establishing a motive before calling the perpetrator a murderer?

 

I wouldn't. Causality and reasoning are not part of the definition, just the explanation. Simple stuff.

 

Additionally, have you not read any of the other pages? Most of us have been discussing the reasons too...

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
Exactly. You know my thoughts on the issue and what p****s me off even more than those that riot are the pathetic excuses some come out with to somehow justify it "they're poor", "Tory government" "outside of society" - no they're just rotten little scrotes that love to hunt in packs, throw their weight around at any given opportunity and take whatever they can out of the world without putting a single thing back in.

 

Of course they are rotten little scrotes, but the same little scrotes were not setting fire to their own neighborhoods 1 year, 2 year, or 5 years ago. Somethings made this happen.

 

No one is making excuses for the violence, there are none. But only an idiot would not look to the root cause of it. IMO it is obviously linked to people having no money, job or future. Criminality follows poverty around where ever you are on the planet.

 

These people are scum but they see their MP's stealing money from the public purse, bankers ruining the economy through greed and getting bonuses afterwards. Today's whole society is based on greed.

 

Is the kid that wonders into the store and picks up a TV any different to the MP who takes public money to buy a house for his ducks?

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teamsaint

teamsaint

Posted
Posted

just a question

why don't all the pampered rich elites take to the streets , rioting and looting, if its such fun?

As for the police being too scared to act for fear of enquiries etc, it doesn't seem to bother them at football matches.

 

What looters and rioters are doing is wrong.

The way that our society is run for the benefit of just a few, at the expense of the many, is unforgivable.

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saintbletch

saintbletch

Posted
Posted
:lol:

 

One of the most profound Twitter posts I've read today: "Only in the UK could someone wearing £100 trainers use a £300 smartphone to organise a riot while pleading poverty".

 

Profound? Or a complete over-simplification of the complexity of the issue?

 

Surely a more relevant analysis would be to ask what they must have done illegally, or at least outside of mainstream society's wealth generating mechanisms in order to pull themselves out of poverty to be able to afford those things?

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capitalsaint

capitalsaint

Posted
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Could somebody explain to me the 'pampered rich' argument?

 

The more you earn, the higher a percentage of your wages are paid in tax.

 

If somebody wealthy is giving half of a portion of their earnings to the government, how are they more greedy than somebody on a lower percentage?

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