Tottenham riots

[pap]

Now that's interesting. I'd thought that this would only really continue through night times, as the darkness gives them a certain feeling off safety and anonymity. If it continues spreading and starts happening during the day this could get worse.

 

Disturbances were happening in broad daylight yesterday. Part of why they were so shocking.

[Saint_clark]

The ba5tards have even nicked that mannequins laces ffs.

 

It's not a mannequin, there's another picture where he's walking away. F*ck knows what he's doing there.

[Saint_clark]

To be fair it started in Hackney during the day.

 

I'm more worried as I work on the top floor of probably the most targeted building in London for this kind of thing, Topshop Oxford Circus. Spending a lot of time looking out the windows...

 

True, but i'm talking about the kind of scenes late last night happening in broad daylight (huge fires being started etc)

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

True, but i'm talking about the kind of scenes late last night happening in broad daylight (huge fires being started etc)

 

Well, we'll see I suppose.

[trousers]

I know, same here. Where you going from and to?

 

I worry as the train station is slap bang in the middle of the High Street.

 

Waterloo to Farnborough. We don't stop at Wimbledon but wouldn't surprise me if they shut down the line in the advent of any unrest in the centre of Wimbledon

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Waterloo to Farnborough. We don't stop at Wimbledon but wouldn't surprise me if they shut down the line in the advent of any unrest in the centre of Wimbledon

 

Well if they do, I'll be stuck at Waterloo as well. We can meet up and nip for a pint, lol.

[stevegrant]

The Met have now said the use of rubber/plastic bullets is "an option".

[Dog]

Even I know that the trend is to wear plimsoll-like shoes without laces

 

Only puffs & Mannequins wear plimsolls.

[influx]

Im not a bleeding heart liberal by any sense but this article does make a lot of sense IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

These rioters feel they don't actually belong to the community. For years, they’ve felt cut adrift from society

 

Shops looted, cars and buildings burnt out, young adults in hoods on the rampage.

 

 

London has woken up to street violence, and the usual narratives have emerged – punish those responsible for the violence because they are "opportunist criminals" and "disgusting thieves". The slightly more intellectually curious might blame the trouble on poor police relations or lack of policing.

 

My own view is that the police in this country do an impressive job and unjustly carry the consequences of a much wider social dysfunction. Before you take a breath of sarcasm thinking "here she goes, excusing the criminals with some sob story", I want to begin by stating two things. First, violence and looting can never be justified. Second, for those of us working at street level, we're not surprised by these events.

 

Twitter and Facebook have kept the perverse momentum going, transmitting invitations such as: "Bare shops are gonna get smashed up. So come, get some (free stuff!!!!) F... the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! Dead the ends and colour war for now. So If you see a brother... SALUTE! If you see a fed... SHOOT!"

 

If this is a war, the enemy, on the face of it, are the "lawless", the defenders are the law-abiding. An absence of morality can easily be found in the rioters and looters. How, we ask, could they attack their own community with such disregard? But the young people would reply "easily", because they feel they don't actually belong to the community. Community, they would say, has nothing to offer them. Instead, for years they have experienced themselves cut adrift from civil society's legitimate structures. Society relies on collaborative behaviour; individuals are held accountable because belonging brings personal benefit. Fear or shame of being alienated keeps most of us pro-social.

 

Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.

 

The insidious flourishing of anti-establishment attitudes is paradoxically helped by the establishment. It grows when a child is dragged by their mother to social services screaming for help and security guards remove both; or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids. Walk into the mental hospitals and there is nothing for the patients to do except peel the wallpaper. Go to the youth centre and you will find the staff have locked themselves up in the office because disturbed young men are dominating the space with their violent dogs. Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped. The border police arrive at the neighbour's door to grab an "over-stayer" and his kids are screaming. British children with no legal papers have mothers surviving through prostitution and still there's not enough food on the table.

 

It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped. Savagery is a possibility within us all. Some of us have been lucky enough not to have to call upon it for survival; others, exhausted from failure, can justify resorting to it.

 

Our leaders still speak about how protecting the community is vital. The trouble is, the deal has gone sour. The community has selected who is worthy of help and who is not. In this false moral economy where the poor are described as dysfunctional, the community fails. One dimension of this failure is being acted out in the riots; the lawlessness is, suddenly, there for all to see. Less visible is the perverse insidious violence delivered through legitimate societal structures. Check out the price of failing to care.

 

I got a call yesterday morning. The kids gave me a run-down of what had happened in Brixton. A street party had been invaded by a group of young men out to grab. A few years ago, the kids who called me would have joined in, because they had nothing to lose. One had been permanently excluded from six schools. When he first arrived at Kids Company he cared so little that he would smash his head into a pane of glass and bite his own flesh off with rage. He'd think nothing of hurting others. After intensive social care and support he walked away when the riots began because he held more value in his membership of a community that has embraced him than a community that demanded his dark side.

 

It costs money to care. But it also costs money to clear up riots, savagery and antisocial behaviour. I leave it to you to do the financial and moral sums.

 

Camila Batmanghelidjh is founder of the charities The Place To Be and Kids Company

[dune]

These riots are the direct result of a generation, that has grown reliant on the benefits system that rewards dysfunctional families. The sense of entitlement without the responsibility to earn that right has been instilled in a large number of families, that have been housed and fed at taxpayers expense. The welfare state in broken and we will go through a lot of pain to fix it. I hope the government has the balls to continue with the difficult task, in the face of pressure from the unions and the criminals. (and I don't mean Ed Balls)

 

Here Here. Now is the time when we need David Cameron to act Margaret Thatcher and push harder. We need to break the Slob Socialist culture in this country.

[Verbal]

Here Here. Now is the time when we need David Cameron to act Margaret Thatcher and push harder. We need to break the Slob Socialist culture in this country.

 

I thought Cameron wanted to hug hoodies. I'm sure that will work.

[dubai_phil]

Who's that May character? How the hell did she get to become Home Secretary?

 

We Police by Consent. No wonder the place is so fecked up...

 

"Excuse me,Mr Looter, would it be alright if we started to Police you now?

 

No? Ah OK carry on then, sorry to trouble you, I hear there's a River Island store up the road hasn't been touched yet, have a nice Day"

[Verbal]

Im not a bleeding heart liberal by any sense but this article does make a lot of sense IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

These rioters feel they don't actually belong to the community. For years, they’ve felt cut adrift from society

 

Shops looted, cars and buildings burnt out, young adults in hoods on the rampage.

 

 

London has woken up to street violence, and the usual narratives have emerged – punish those responsible for the violence because they are "opportunist criminals" and "disgusting thieves". The slightly more intellectually curious might blame the trouble on poor police relations or lack of policing.

 

My own view is that the police in this country do an impressive job and unjustly carry the consequences of a much wider social dysfunction. Before you take a breath of sarcasm thinking "here she goes, excusing the criminals with some sob story", I want to begin by stating two things. First, violence and looting can never be justified. Second, for those of us working at street level, we're not surprised by these events.

 

Twitter and Facebook have kept the perverse momentum going, transmitting invitations such as: "Bare shops are gonna get smashed up. So come, get some (free stuff!!!!) F... the feds we will send them back with OUR riot! Dead the ends and colour war for now. So If you see a brother... SALUTE! If you see a fed... SHOOT!"

 

If this is a war, the enemy, on the face of it, are the "lawless", the defenders are the law-abiding. An absence of morality can easily be found in the rioters and looters. How, we ask, could they attack their own community with such disregard? But the young people would reply "easily", because they feel they don't actually belong to the community. Community, they would say, has nothing to offer them. Instead, for years they have experienced themselves cut adrift from civil society's legitimate structures. Society relies on collaborative behaviour; individuals are held accountable because belonging brings personal benefit. Fear or shame of being alienated keeps most of us pro-social.

 

Working at street level in London, over a number of years, many of us have been concerned about large groups of young adults creating their own parallel antisocial communities with different rules. The individual is responsible for their own survival because the established community is perceived to provide nothing. Acquisition of goods through violence is justified in neighbourhoods where the notion of dog eat dog pervades and the top dog survives the best. The drug economy facilitates a parallel subculture with the drug dealer producing more fiscally efficient solutions than the social care agencies who are too under-resourced to compete.

 

The insidious flourishing of anti-establishment attitudes is paradoxically helped by the establishment. It grows when a child is dragged by their mother to social services screaming for help and security guards remove both; or in the shiny academies which, quietly, rid themselves of the most disturbed kids. Walk into the mental hospitals and there is nothing for the patients to do except peel the wallpaper. Go to the youth centre and you will find the staff have locked themselves up in the office because disturbed young men are dominating the space with their violent dogs. Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped. The border police arrive at the neighbour's door to grab an "over-stayer" and his kids are screaming. British children with no legal papers have mothers surviving through prostitution and still there's not enough food on the table.

 

It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession. Young, intelligent citizens of the ghetto seek an explanation for why they are at the receiving end of bleak Britain, condemned to a darkness where their humanity is not even valued enough to be helped. Savagery is a possibility within us all. Some of us have been lucky enough not to have to call upon it for survival; others, exhausted from failure, can justify resorting to it.

 

Our leaders still speak about how protecting the community is vital. The trouble is, the deal has gone sour. The community has selected who is worthy of help and who is not. In this false moral economy where the poor are described as dysfunctional, the community fails. One dimension of this failure is being acted out in the riots; the lawlessness is, suddenly, there for all to see. Less visible is the perverse insidious violence delivered through legitimate societal structures. Check out the price of failing to care.

 

I got a call yesterday morning. The kids gave me a run-down of what had happened in Brixton. A street party had been invaded by a group of young men out to grab. A few years ago, the kids who called me would have joined in, because they had nothing to lose. One had been permanently excluded from six schools. When he first arrived at Kids Company he cared so little that he would smash his head into a pane of glass and bite his own flesh off with rage. He'd think nothing of hurting others. After intensive social care and support he walked away when the riots began because he held more value in his membership of a community that has embraced him than a community that demanded his dark side.

 

It costs money to care. But it also costs money to clear up riots, savagery and antisocial behaviour. I leave it to you to do the financial and moral sums.

 

Camila Batmanghelidjh is founder of the charities The Place To Be and Kids Company

 

Camila Batmanghelidjh has been working miracles for years. In all the cacophony, hers is a voice that should be listened to most carefully.

[St Marco]

Thank god i am not working in London this week as looks a total nightmare!

 

That BBC video above sums it up for me. The problem with our current society is that we look for way's to try and give people the benefit of the doubt. If they kill someone it must be because they had a **** up-bringing. They burn down a shop it must be because they come from a poor background, they rob someone it must be racial, they break into an 85 year old womens house and steal her life savings it must be because they have limited opportunities to find a job, they go and throw rocks at the police it must be because they feel they have no respect and have no way of earning it etc etc

 

Society needs to stop making excuses for these people. Comes a time when they need to take responsibility of their own lives rather then trying to blame it on everyone else.

[pap]

Thank god i am not working in London this week as looks a total nightmare!

 

That BBC video above sums it up for me. The problem with our current society is that we look for way's to try and give people the benefit of the doubt. If they kill someone it must be because they had a **** up-bringing. They burn down a shop it must be because they come from a poor background, they rob someone it must be racial, they break into an 85 year old womens house and steal her life savings it must be because they have limited opportunities to find a job, they go and throw rocks at the police it must be because they feel they have no respect and have no way of earning it etc etc

 

Society needs to stop making excuses for these people. Comes a time when they need to take responsibility of their own lives rather then trying to blame it on everyone else.

 

I think the counter-point is that we need to start taking responsibility for everyone, and not just leaving people to rot in ghettos while we live in blissful ignorance.

[pap]

Camila Batmanghelidjh has been working miracles for years. In all the cacophony, hers is a voice that should be listened to most carefully.

 

Got a link to the original article?

 

I'd like to tweet this.

[Verbal]

Got a link to the original article?

 

I'd like to tweet this.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

[bristolsaint29]

Council offices shut in Bristol, Cabot Circus shutting, Harvey Nicks shut already have just spoken to the police who said they have strong intelligence it's going to kick off here again shortly.

 

Shop 50 yds from my front door done last night.

[dune]

I think the counter-point is that we need to start taking responsibility for everyone, and not just leaving people to rot in ghettos while we live in blissful ignorance.

 

What crap. These people live in London, a city with myriad opportunities. It's not like a Northern pit town where the main employer suddenly closes. These 'people' in boroughs such as Tottenham and Hackney choose their Socialist handout lives because they are lazy scum. If they choose not to work then they should be made to work. Build workhouses and throw them in there.

[stevegrant]

Council offices shut in Bristol, Cabot Circus shutting, Harvey Nicks shut already have just spoken to the police who said they have strong intelligence it's going to kick off here again shortly.

This is the bit I don't get, if they've got "strong intelligence", surely they can put a stop to it before it kicks off?

[bristolsaint29]

This is the bit I don't get, if they've got "strong intelligence", surely they can put a stop to it before it kicks off?

 

Annoys me too, run a large office and it's meant to be happening half a mile away, when I asked so is it actually happening she just said well we've had intelligence?

[trousers]

Well if they do, I'll be stuck at Waterloo as well. We can meet up and nip for a pint, lol.

 

Sounds like a plan!

 

http://www.lbc.co.uk/new-reports-of-disturbances-around-london-43379

 

Shops in Westfield, Bromley, Balham, East Ham, Hackney, Farringdon, Kingston, Wimbledon, Clapham Common, Ealing and Wandsworth are believed to be closing early as London prepares for a fourth night of violence. The Southside Shopping Centre in Wandsworth and Centre Court Shopping Centre in Wimbledon have already shut.

Edited 9 August, 2011 by trousers

[Guided Missile]

The Met have now said the use of rubber/plastic bullets is "an option".

Pity they didn't think as carefully when they used real ones, that kicked the whole thing off. Am I the only one, post De Mendez, to think that arming the Met is akin to letting them play "Call of Duty", for real...

[stevegrant]

Pity they didn't think as carefully when they used real ones, that kicked the whole thing off. Am I the only one, post De Mendez, to think that arming the Met is akin to letting them play "Call of Duty", for real...

Difficult to comment without knowing what actually went on in Tottenham, to be honest. The result if the IPCC inquiry will be interesting, though.

 

Just a thought, Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act is often used against groups of football fans who police believe may be intending to cause trouble - basically it gives them the power to remove them from an area, district or entire town/city for a period of time. Why the hell haven't they used this here?

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Sounds like a plan!

 

http://www.lbc.co.uk/new-reports-of-disturbances-around-london-43379

 

Shops in Westfield, Bromley, Balham, East Ham, Hackney, Farringdon, Kingston, Wimbledon, Clapham Common, Ealing and Wandsworth are believed to be closing early as London prepares for a fourth night of violence. The Southside Shopping Centre in Wandsworth and Centre Court Shopping Centre in Wimbledon have already shut.

 

Well if it happens I'll PM you my mobile!

[skintsaint]

Still amazed about people defending this to be honest. A bad upbringing and poor future prospects does not mean I can go and burn, steal loot whatever just for the sake of it.

 

God forbid these people if they ever found themselves living in some real 'poor' countries.

[scotty]

Pity they didn't think as carefully when they used real ones, that kicked the whole thing off. Am I the only one, post De Mendez, to think that arming the Met is akin to letting them play "Call of Duty", for real...

 

No, youre not. Thats a point i was going to make, and a valid one imho.

[St Marco]

I think the counter-point is that we need to start taking responsibility for everyone, and not just leaving people to rot in ghettos while we live in blissful ignorance.

 

But that is the problem, they are not left to rot in "ghettos" while we live in blissful ignorance. That is a total false misconception.

Everybody has a choice in this country. I grew up in a council estate and decided rather then be a nobody doing nothing i would go to school and actually try and make something for myself. All these kids have exactly the same option. But they give up because they think it is too hard. They would rather do nothing then go and learn an education.

Then when they have failed to get an education they then blame socety for not helping them. So then the community try and help out by giving some of these people work placements/apprenticeships, i am sure a lot of you will have had some of them. They have the choice to then learn that job and work hard, maybe be given a permanent job afterwards. Back in the day when i worked at Marwell as a waiter to fund college they took a few of these people on full-time. The point is that there are opportunitites like that everywhere but they would rather society handed it to them on a plate rather then actually do any work in finding and sorting it out themself.

 

These kids have it easy. Look at their clothes in those photos/videos. Does that strike you as some kid struggling to survive?

 

As i said before there comes a time when people who do wrong have to take responsibility for their own actions and face the consequences for those actions. By looking at it from the point of view where we need to look the other way and look for the route cause has been done for the last 10 years or more. Did that help? You can only help those who wish to be helped. If people would rather look for the easy routes and want things on a plate without having to work hard for it or make sacrifices then what can you do to help them? Give them some job simply because they will stop rioting? What about the guy who came from a council estate, worked his way out of there, got his education, went and worked for a company, that company died and he lost his job and also needs a job now. Do you give it to the guy who has worked hard or the guy who expects it to be given to him?

 

There are many options for these kids. As eluded to in that letter above about the kid who changed his life around. He decided he wanted to change. He felt he was now apart of the community. He made a choice to go to those classes/groups and that turned his life around. These people have the exact same options as he did but as i said before they look for the easy way out. They have no interest in it. Because afterall going out looting and destroying the decent peoples livelyhoods is "fun" right?

 

Our society needs to change from thinking the kid has it hard when it is the family who have to deal with those kids actions that have it hard. As i said before to you if it was your house that was burnt down, your shop that was robbed, your gran that was attacked for her money, your car that was set alight i doubt you would be so forgiving as much as you try and claim you would be.

[LGTL]

Kids aren't born complete idiots, it's taught behaviour. I blame their non-existant pathetic parents more then anyone else. They need discipline, yet schools can't do it and the parents don't give a ****.

 

Shameful scenes.

Edited 9 August, 2011 by LGTL

[dune]

St Marco what the Liberal Elite fail to grasp from their isolated suburban ivory towers is most people that grew up in council houses are normal hard working people. It's a slur on every good hardworking family to tar them with the same brush as the lazy scum that are rioting.

[trousers]

Well if it happens I'll PM you my mobile!

 

Likewise. I'm actually quite looking forward to a beer now! Just hope the riots start on time.... ;-)

[Junior Mullet]

Difficult to comment without knowing what actually went on in Tottenham, to be honest. The result if the IPCC inquiry will be interesting, though.

 

Just a thought, Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act is often used against groups of football fans who police believe may be intending to cause trouble - basically it gives them the power to remove them from an area, district or entire town/city for a period of time. Why the hell haven't they used this here?

 

They would if they could. Problem is the police have been hopelessly outnumbered in most places where it has kicked off badly meaning that the idiots are left free to do what they like - that's the most shocking thing. The police had to get on top of things in Tottenham on Saturday night but their weaknesses were exposed and comments by the met at the time about police cuts hurting them and morale being at an all time low highlighted their weaknesses for all to see. Thugs saw this and have exposed those weaknesses with sheer numbers.

 

Tonight will be interesting. The police must show themselves to be in control and to be a force to be reckoned with otherwise every little scum bag at home is going to think they're missing out on free stuff which is what has happened so far. Keep the opportunist sheep off of the streets and the hardcore thug numbers suddenly don't look so clever. That has to be the number one priority of the police later today.

[JackFrost]

Trouble reported in other places like Derby and Kent. In Kent there are numerous petrol stations refusing to sell petrol in cans.

 

Their also closing shops up early in Wolverhampton.

 

Ironically the Sony centre that got burnt down was run by Radio 1 DJ Rob da Bank.

[Verbal]

What crap. These people live in London, a city with myriad opportunities. It's not like a Northern pit town where the main employer suddenly closes. These 'people' in boroughs such as Tottenham and Hackney choose their Socialist handout lives because they are lazy scum. If they choose not to work then they should be made to work. Build workhouses and throw them in there.

 

This is not the Muppet Show. You need to be a bit more grown up in your responses.

[JackFrost]

They would if they could. Problem is the police have been hopelessly outnumbered in most places where it has kicked off badly meaning that the idiots are left free to do what they like - that's the most shocking thing. The police had to get on top of things in Tottenham on Saturday night but their weaknesses were exposed and comments by the met at the time about police cuts hurting them and morale being at an all time low highlighted their weaknesses for all to see. Thugs saw this and have exposed those weaknesses with sheer numbers.

Tonight will be interesting. The police must show themselves to be in control and to be a force to be reckoned with otherwise every little scum bag at home is going to think they're missing out on free stuff which is what has happened so far. Keep the opportunist sheep off of the streets and the hardcore thug numbers suddenly don't look so clever. That has to be the number one priority of the police later today.

 

Illustrated perfectly in Woolwich

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456050

[capitalsaint]

But that is the problem, they are not left to rot in "ghettos" while we live in blissful ignorance. That is a total false misconception.

Everybody has a choice in this country. I grew up in a council estate and decided rather then be a nobody doing nothing i would go to school and actually try and make something for myself. All these kids have exactly the same option. But they give up because they think it is too hard. They would rather do nothing then go and learn an education.

Then when they have failed to get an education they then blame socety for not helping them. So then the community try and help out by giving some of these people work placements/apprenticeships, i am sure a lot of you will have had some of them. They have the choice to then learn that job and work hard, maybe be given a permanent job afterwards. Back in the day when i worked at Marwell as a waiter to fund college they took a few of these people on full-time. The point is that there are opportunitites like that everywhere but they would rather society handed it to them on a plate rather then actually do any work in finding and sorting it out themself.

 

These kids have it easy. Look at their clothes in those photos/videos. Does that strike you as some kid struggling to survive?

 

As i said before there comes a time when people who do wrong have to take responsibility for their own actions and face the consequences for those actions. By looking at it from the point of view where we need to look the other way and look for the route cause has been done for the last 10 years or more. Did that help? You can only help those who wish to be helped. If people would rather look for the easy routes and want things on a plate without having to work hard for it or make sacrifices then what can you do to help them? Give them some job simply because they will stop rioting? What about the guy who came from a council estate, worked his way out of there, got his education, went and worked for a company, that company died and he lost his job and also needs a job now. Do you give it to the guy who has worked hard or the guy who expects it to be given to him?

 

There are many options for these kids. As eluded to in that letter above about the kid who changed his life around. He decided he wanted to change. He felt he was now apart of the community. He made a choice to go to those classes/groups and that turned his life around. These people have the exact same options as he did but as i said before they look for the easy way out. They have no interest in it. Because afterall going out looting and destroying the decent peoples livelyhoods is "fun" right?

 

Our society needs to change from thinking the kid has it hard when it is the family who have to deal with those kids actions that have it hard. As i said before to you if it was your house that was burnt down, your shop that was robbed, your gran that was attacked for her money, your car that was set alight i doubt you would be so forgiving as much as you try and claim you would be.

 

Fantastic post!

 

Anybody suggesting that it is purely the environment causing these problems is as ignorant as can be.

 

I don't see many chaps on the Millwall boards sticking up for the looters, far from it...

[so22saint]

I'd like to meet the big lad in the black cap in this video:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

 

What an absolute budgie, deserves a ****ing kicking.

[capitalsaint]

I'd like to meet the big lad in the black cap in this video:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

 

What an absolute budgie, deserves a ****ing kicking.

 

I'd like you to have watched the video when I linked it

[Guided Missile]

Difficult to comment without knowing what actually went on in Tottenham, to be honest. The result if the IPCC inquiry will be interesting, though.

 

Just a thought, Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act is often used against groups of football fans who police believe may be intending to cause trouble - basically it gives them the power to remove them from an area, district or entire town/city for a period of time. Why the hell haven't they used this here?

I miss the old Riot Act, to be fair:

 

The Riot Act[1] (1714) (1 Geo.1 St.2 c.5) was an Act of the Parliament of Great Britain that authorised local authorities to declare any group of twelve or more people to be unlawfully assembled, and thus have to disperse or face punitive action. The Act, whose long title was "An act for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies, and for the more speedy and effectual punishing the rioters", came into force on 1 August 1715, and remained on the statute books until 1973.

 

Proclamation of riotous assembly

The act created a mechanism for certain local officials to make a proclamation ordering the dispersal of any group of more than twelve people who were "unlawfully, riotously, and tumultuously assembled together". If the group failed to disperse within one hour, then anyone remaining gathered was guilty of a felony without benefit of clergy, punishable by death.

The proclamation could be made in an incorporated town or city by the Mayor, Bailiff or "other head officer", or a Justice of the Peace. Elsewhere it could be made by a Justice of the Peace or the Sheriff or Under-Sheriff. It had to be read out to the gathering concerned, and had to follow precise wording detailed in the act; several convictions were overturned because parts of the proclamation had been omitted, in particular "God save the King".[2]

The wording that had to be read out to the assembled gathering was as follows:

 

Our Sovereign Lord the King chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the act made in the first year of King George, for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the King!

 

Consequences of disregarding the proclamation

 

If a group of people failed to disperse within one hour of the proclamation, the act provided that the authorities could use force to disperse them. Anyone assisting with the dispersal was specifically indemnified against any legal consequences in the event of any of the crowd being injured or killed.

 

Unfortunately, these were replaced by the Public Order Act, 1986, which I think, provides enough power, if we had enough police on the streets, instead of paper shuffling behind a desk:

Public Order Act 1986

1 Riot..

(1)Where 12 or more persons who are present together use or threaten unlawful violence for a common purpose and the conduct of them (taken together) is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety, each of the persons using unlawful violence for the common purpose is guilty of riot..

(2)It is immaterial whether or not the 12 or more use or threaten unlawful violence simultaneously..

(3)The common purpose may be inferred from conduct..

(4)No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene..

(5)Riot may be committed in private as well as in public places..

(6)A person guilty of riot is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or a fine or both....

[Saintandy666]

I'd like to meet the big lad in the black cap in this video:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

 

What an absolute budgie, deserves a ****ing kicking.

 

That just makes me sad

[bristolsaint29]

saints game deffo on

[saintbletch]

But that is the problem, they are not left to rot in "ghettos" while we live in blissful ignorance. That is a total false misconception.

Everybody has a choice in this country. I grew up in a council estate and decided rather then be a nobody doing nothing i would go to school and actually try and make something for myself. All these kids have exactly the same option. But they give up because they think it is too hard. They would rather do nothing then go and learn an education.

Some good points in there St Marco

 

But can I ask whether you feel that you can take all of the credit for trying to make something of yourself?

 

I don't mean to pry and I'm certainly not intending to be disrespectful but were your parental influences so poor and ineffectual that it was you, and you alone that was responsible for making something of yourself?

 

If so, and if you had no positive roll models in your life then well played to you mate and more power to you. Exceptional.

 

But if you had a strong family life around you and/or were shown right and wrong, good and bad and had that instilled in you from an early age and reinforced through the behaviour of your close family continually through your developing life, then with respect I'm not sure comparing your life to the lives of some those rioting is a fair comparison.

 

*please see my earlier disclaimer about not excusing the actions of the rioters.

[pap]

But that is the problem, they are not left to rot in "ghettos" while we live in blissful ignorance. That is a total false misconception.

Everybody has a choice in this country. I grew up in a council estate and decided rather then be a nobody doing nothing i would go to school and actually try and make something for myself. All these kids have exactly the same option. But they give up because they think it is too hard. They would rather do nothing then go and learn an education.

 

As did I, but like me, you probably grew up on a council estate in a time when it was easier to get out of one. Personally, I benefited from a very cheap education ( we still had some semblance of a grant back then and no tuition fees ).

 

Even back then, there were horror stories on our estate. My immediate family were not well off, but I benefited from having a large extended family that took part in my upbringing and encouraged me in the right way. Not all are so lucky, and if you spend your entire childhood with adults who are abusive, criminal or both - I'd say that your life chances are considerably worse.

 

So, my point is - not all council estate experiences are the same. You can live on a council estate with decent parents and family, or you can have complete shyte. You can have grown up in the 19xx's and have been conferred the benefits of the time, or you could be reaching adulthood today, only to find that the ladder has been pulled up and that all the opportunities your parents had are denied to you.

 

Times have changed. I grew up in a single-parent family, and back in the 1980s, that was pretty rare. Now it is almost the norm on my old estate.

 

 

Then when they have failed to get an education they then blame socety for not helping them. So then the community try and help out by giving some of these people work placements/apprenticeships, i am sure a lot of you will have had some of them. They have the choice to then learn that job and work hard, maybe be given a permanent job afterwards. Back in the day when i worked at Marwell as a waiter to fund college they took a few of these people on full-time. The point is that there are opportunitites like that everywhere but they would rather society handed it to them on a plate rather then actually do any work in finding and sorting it out themself.

 

These kids have it easy. Look at their clothes in those photos/videos. Does that strike you as some kid struggling to survive?

 

You say you grew up on a council estate, yet you make this point?

 

Good trainers and devices are not an indication of wealth. Most of the kids on my estate had good trainers and for the time, relatively modern computers. Most of the trainers were nicked, or 'hot', as it was termed back then. Most of the computers were either nicked or paid for out of the proceeds of drug trafficking. You can buy a lot if you have a quarter of dope to trade.

 

Which council estate did you grow up on? The Eton overflow?

 

As i said before there comes a time when people who do wrong have to take responsibility for their own actions and face the consequences for those actions. By looking at it from the point of view where we need to look the other way and look for the route cause has been done for the last 10 years or more. Did that help? You can only help those who wish to be helped. If people would rather look for the easy routes and want things on a plate without having to work hard for it or make sacrifices then what can you do to help them? Give them some job simply because they will stop rioting? What about the guy who came from a council estate, worked his way out of there, got his education, went and worked for a company, that company died and he lost his job and also needs a job now. Do you give it to the guy who has worked hard or the guy who expects it to be given to him?

 

We haven't addressed the root cause at all, namely, that these people feel they have no stake in society and no means to better themselves.

 

I'm glad you found your way out of a council estate. Just a bit sad that you've forgotten where you come from. I'm not asking you to condone all of this. I can't condone it myself.

 

There are many options for these kids. As eluded to in that letter above about the kid who changed his life around. He decided he wanted to change. He felt he was now apart of the community. He made a choice to go to those classes/groups and that turned his life around. These people have the exact same options as he did but as i said before they look for the easy way out. They have no interest in it. Because afterall going out looting and destroying the decent peoples livelyhoods is "fun" right?

 

Once again, unless you are 18 right now, these people do not have the exact same options as you did. If you'd like to tell me when you hit 16, I'll be happy to enumerate the stuff you had that they don't.

 

 

Our society needs to change from thinking the kid has it hard when it is the family who have to deal with those kids actions that have it hard. As i said before to you if it was your house that was burnt down, your shop that was robbed, your gran that was attacked for her money, your car that was set alight i doubt you would be so forgiving as much as you try and claim you would be.

 

Although I haven't been the victim of a riot, I have been the victim of a violent crime. It was an unprovoked attack on a city centre street carried out by a stranger that you'd describe as a scumbag. It wasn't fun. I spent the best part of a year afterward looking over my shoulder and enjoying the occasional panic attack.

 

I don't forgive the bloke at all, but I am interested in why people are like that in the first place.

 

On a similar note, I'm not forgiving of the people that are causing trouble now. I am very concerned about it, and would like to stop it happening again. You would suggest that we just label them as scum. I would prefer to solve the problem.

 

So yep, bleat on here about how you're a council estate kid made good all you like and join the club, mate. A lot of us came off council estates. The difference is that some of us remember what they're like.

[dubai_phil]

Couple of very different interviews on Sky News just now. First one was a restaurant chain owner in Ealing who managed to describe the ransacking of his place and the terror of the staff.

 

The second one was another apologist going on that it was about cuts and youth unemployment and deprivation, and then destroyed her own argument by saying that in Tower Hamlets and other deprived areas there was no trouble & the community came together to protect buildings.

 

Utter idiot.

 

And that clip they keep showing of some kid in an all black outfit (hoodie) just refusing to move, argueing with the police, they clearly trying to be "gentle" he kicks stuff at them - I mean WTF just slap the handcuffs on him, he's keeping some 5 or 6 cops away from where there is trouble.. Didn't that used to be called Obstruction?

[Wibble]

There are no words to describe just how thick these two are

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[Saintandy666]

Apparently kicking off in Southampton. Apparently a Job Centre has been broken into. And no, I'm not joking.

[capitalsaint]

Some good points in there St Marco

 

But can I ask whether you feel that you can take all of the credit for trying to make something of yourself?

 

I don't mean to pry and I'm certainly not intending to be disrespectful but were your parental influences so poor and ineffectual that it was you, and you alone that was responsible for making something of yourself?

 

If so, and if you had no positive roll models in your life then well played to you mate and more power to you. Exceptional.

 

But if you had a strong family life around you and/or were shown right and wrong, good and bad and had that instilled in you from an early age and reinforced through the behaviour of your close family continually through your developing life, then with respect I'm not sure comparing your life to the lives of some those rioting is a fair comparison.

 

*please see my earlier disclaimer about not excusing the actions of the rioters.

 

If you see, though, Marco was responding to the post which aligned these problems to the fact that the rioters are being left to rot in ghettos. As somebody who grew up in a council house, he can compare himself to them inasmuch as it not being purely due to the environment that they are doing this.

 

Your points about right/wrong are entirely valid, Marco (I believe) was trying to counter the argument that it is because of these people coming from ghettos and being 'left to rot' that they are commiting crime, rather than the actual reason which you note, which is of being taught morality from the family life.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Couple of very different interviews on Sky News just now. First one was a restaurant chain owner in Ealing who managed to describe the ransacking of his place and the terror of the staff.

 

The second one was another apologist going on that it was about cuts and youth unemployment and deprivation, and then destroyed her own argument by saying that in Tower Hamlets and other deprived areas there was no trouble & the community came together to protect buildings.

 

Utter idiot.

 

And that clip they keep showing of some kid in an all black outfit (hoodie) just refusing to move, argueing with the police, they clearly trying to be "gentle" he kicks stuff at them - I mean WTF just slap the handcuffs on him, he's keeping some 5 or 6 cops away from where there is trouble.. Didn't that used to be called Obstruction?

 

They are too scared of being sued now. They had the ex Deputy Police Commish on Sky News this morning, and he said they cannot do anything for fear of being sued and persecution.

 

It's a nightmare.

[Window Cleaner]

There are no words to describe just how thick these two are

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

 

not just thick, totally uncouth and uneducated. Every time I go to England during the week there are always shoals of kids who should no doubt be in school hanging around shopping malls and fast food outlets, any time of the day or night you can find them there.

 

Probably stems from the oh so British culture that parenting is a cross between a greek democracy and some sort of reality TV programme with votes for the most popular at

regular intervals.

[Dibden Purlieu Saint]

Apparently kicking off in Southampton. Apparently a Job Centre has been broken into. And no, I'm not joking.

 

That happened much earlier didn't it? Was in the Echo at lunch I think.