The big Defence Debate

[Chez]

Last season this was a problem. Every time the opposition had a set piece you could feel the entire stadium become nervous. Every time they went on the attack against us, you just felt there was a goal there. I can't think of a time since the Claus and Killer days when there was absolute faith in our defence.

 

with Jaidi in defence I have never felt safer at set pieces in 25 years of watching Saints.

[rshephard3]

so, one of the best defences in the entire country (relatively) will now struggle against the mighty barnsley, donny and the like

 

the defence is fine...sure we could have another addition and I hope we do at CB..as I think jaidi will not feature so much...but its fine IMO

 

This. I'd have liked to have seen maybe Clarke from Huddersfield added over the summer as he's a super player imo. But the defence isn't a monster problem for me. I'm actually quietly confident about this squads chances this season. I must be mental.

[Chez]

The CB has been a problem for a long time. We needed to be decisive early on in the summer and sign a high quality CB. We have not done this and will pay dearly IMO.

 

CB wasn't a problem last season.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Anyway, this has turned into the total opposite of what was intended. What are peoples views on our defence for next season?

 

Thank you RobM for understanding what this thread was supposed to be aimed at. Back on track I hope and please people, don't just slate an opinion...try and explain your own if that's not too difficult. Who know's, you might convince others you've got the right point of view?!?

 

Again, to re-iterate the issue. We had a great last season defensively eventually...the stats say so (fine if it leads to a win and 3 points). But next season is different. The quality of attacking players is much higher - the pace is much faster and consequently harder physically so stamina will be MUCH more important. In short it's going to be a different ball game next season and I fear for our defence. Even Fonte is prone to getting dragged out of position (and expend more energy) mainly because he has to cover other players - Martin is not ready, Seaborne is not good enough to be anything other than backup and Jaidi, while having the competency, will not have the physique now to match his experience. We are desperate for at least one if not TWO CB's. With the right coaching and tactical instruction, I think our full-backs might just cope.

Edited 31 July, 2011 by Saint Fan CaM

[doggface]

I'm confident with fonte, davis I think will do fine. Think that Harding will do ok and that Dickson has a chance. Seabourne is the 2nd most cultured cb we have but I think the jury is out. Jaidi had an excellent last half of the season but a liability on the ground against pace. Martin needs to go out on loan badly and play.

 

Butterfield has been solid and crossing from deep fantastic (if only he was a bit quicker and could get to the byline!), Richardson has been a big dissapointment. I think we look weak here but I think Stevens from Plymouth may be fast tracked.

 

We will sign another centre back, that is pretty obvious.

[saintscottofthenortham]

FFS. draw 2-2 at Yeovil in a meaningless friendly and the wrist slitters are out.

[BARCELONASAINT]

I try and not read too much into pre-season games but i have to say i am concerned about Jaidi, he was shockingly bad last weekend and appears to have been the same yesterday from what people have posted that went. I would have liked to have seen us sign an experienced CB during pre-season and have a horrible feeling that we will be found out defensively this season if this area is not addressed.

[Brussels Saint]

Point 1.

Good defence starts with good shape and closing down in front of the back four.

In middle of midfield, Cork is good at this. Hammond and Chaplow better options to Schneido in this regard. Is Schneido's creativity enough to warrant a place?

 

Point 2

Davis is still good enough.

Makes some silly decisions, but no gk is perfect. He's as good as we could wish for.

 

Point 3

CB - Of all our defenders, Fonte is the only one from whom we couldn't hope for better. Stick.

CB - We all have our favourites, but basically the other centre-back is a matter of picking the least bad option. Not a good situation.

RB - Richardson has been a disappointment; Butterfield is a better option, but he's really not exceptional. Adequate at best.

LB - Dickson has also been a disappointment; Harding is a real weakness defensively - he's ok when they run at him, but is marking at the far post is woeful. We're vulnerable here.

 

Conclusion

 

1. With creativity from Lallana, Chamberlain, Connolly further forward, I'd go for Cork and Hammond in middle of midfield.

 

2. If I were Adkins, I'd be desperate for another top quality CB. Fragile full-backs is one thing, fragile central defence is crippling. Ask Arsene Wenger.

 

I fully agree a huge part of a successful defence is what happens in front of them, however I think you are mistaken about Morgan.

Morgan is a defensive midfielder period, out of the two of them Cork is more likely to play further upfield, but actually overall they make an excellent pairing as both understand the importance of protecting the back 4.

I've always wondered a bit why people see Morgan as a primarily attacking player, maybe because he is technically very good. I guess I've seen him play about 15 times and each time he sits deep in midfield looking to collect the ball from the back and use his passing to initiate attacks.

He's almost never in the opposition box (as Cork was against WB when he scored).

Admittedly when he was really young he was a bit lightweight and breaking attacks up was not his strength, but in the last 2 years he's really added this to his game.

[Psycrow]

I'm typing on an iPod, no access to a computer and no inclination to type out arguments on this infernal thing.

 

Yes Rob, we all want to see a new CB. Why? Because a team should always be constantly improving if finances allow. That doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem with the current defense or was 1 last year.

 

I think you've changed your mind about your point and what this thread is about too as the thread has gone on. No offence, I'm not the fightin-type. Just have a read back objectively

 

Over and out

[Saint Since '51]

I fully agree a huge part of a successful defence is what happens in front of them, however I think you are mistaken about Morgan.

Morgan is a defensive midfielder period, out of the two of them Cork is more likely to play further upfield, but actually overall they make an excellent pairing as both understand the importance of protecting the back 4.

I've always wondered a bit why people see Morgan as a primarily attacking player, maybe because he is technically very good. I guess I've seen him play about 15 times and each time he sits deep in midfield looking to collect the ball from the back and use his passing to initiate attacks.

He's almost never in the opposition box (as Cork was against WB when he scored).

 

 

Precisely my point. He plays in deep positions, but what he's good at is building from the back when we have the ball; he's not good defensively when they have it.

[Roger]

Precisely my point. He plays in deep positions' date=' but what he's good at is building from the back when [i']we[/i] have the ball; he's not good defensively when they have it.

 

Not true. He is good defensively. His tackling has improved loads. He reads the game better now. I would say he takes possession off other teams more than any of the other midfielders.

[Thedelldays]

Not true. He is good defensively. His tackling has improved loads. He reads the game better now. I would say he takes possession off other teams more than any of the other midfielders.

 

eeer....more than hammond...? really..?

[The9]

I'm keen for us to buy a better CB because although Fonte is good at this level, Seaborne / Martin are unproven and Jaidi can't be expected to play 46 matches and we need a fast and strong player to complement Fonte. Even Fonte struggled a little against West Brom's reserve striker Miller in the air, who is probably Championship standard.

 

As far as the fullbacks go, Richardson, Butterfield and Harding all have Championship experience, and only Butterfield's age is getting questionable, which I think has been offset by Richardson's greater fitness and agility pre-season compared to the cumbersome ox that pitched up last year. Dickson gives us an option going forward, and who knows whether Jack Stephens might be an option at right back ? Harding has looked comfortable in the 4 halves of pre-season I've seen, so I'm reasonably happy with him at the moment. Seaborne has been pretty decent at CB, but he and Martin got taken to pieces within seconds when he moved to left back against WBA for their second goal.

 

It remains to be seen how we cope against quicker, more mobile players who are also strong in the air, as opposed to the mostly one-trick ponies in League One, but I feel we're a little susceptible to tricky, pacy players at the moment.

Edited 31 July, 2011 by The9

[Saintandy666]

Jaidi is good, but in the Championship, I feel he isn't more than a backup. I am more than happy with Fonte(CB), Richardson(RB) and Dickson/Harding(LB). I just really feel like we need another CB to match the standard of the rest of the defence, as I don't feel Martin and Seabourne are up to that yet. I could be wrong, but that's my thoughts.

[L1Minus10]

We obviously had a good defensive record last year but the caveat is that in about 20 out of 23 games at St Mary's, the opposition didn't attack, they left one up front and just defended. When we were put under pressure in away games, I felt that Davis at times, but in particular Harding and Seaborne were found wanting and if it were down to me, neither of those two would be first choice in my back 4. Lots seem to assume that the NPC will be a fest of flowing football fromt he opposition but it really won't be - more teams will come to SMS thinking they can win but the standard is not going to be Barcelona, there is still going to be lots of hoofing it forward. This is why I'd go with a back 4 of Richardson - Fonte - Jaidi - Dickson. To be fair, it doesn't matter which of our right backs play.

 

If we could sign a new left footed centre back then I would and sell Seaborne on - you watch him the next time the ball is pinging round our box - he'll be the one asking what day it is.

[John Smith]

I really do wonder what people are expecting? Martin played well when he came in, thought he was exceptional and shows great potential. Seabourne is a very big lad. I might question his passing a little and this is where martin is my preference, but, he IS a good CB. Jiadi, what a great pro! Yes he is going to struggle at his age, but, let's just accept that he will play when the oppo have strong slow attackers. We were very good at the back last season, and I felt that in most games, the defence had the oppo in their pockets, under control and we looked confident and strong.

 

The full backs is more of a questionable position for me, but, this is a very hard position to find very good players. We have been very fortunate with the likes of Bale and Bridge in recent times, but, more often than not, the full backs play a supporting role, not a leading role when going forward. As long as they stop their man from progressing down the wing, we are doing well, job done. Harding is a very difficult defender to get round, Butterfield is a very good defensive player and makes it very difficult for his attacker to get anything clean into the box. So, what's all the fuss?

 

I think this CB / Defensive debate goes back to the last few years, ie pre-take over and the arrival of ML and NC. under the sewardship of Lowe and then Mikey and Leon, we never really addressed the defensive holes and weaknesses. partly because of money and partly because of necessary requirements elsewhere in the team. It became apparent that this team needed a whole new defence when we were taken over, and, we got one. We got a very good one. We got the BEST in the league. We got the second best in all leagues. We are very fortunate to have Fonte, Jaidi, Seabourne and Martin. in the next 4 years, I would love to see martin and Seabourne spark up a partnership. I think a natural left footer and right footer is invaluable at CB. Fonte is good, he will do well this coming year, but, I think he needs a Martin or Seabourne behind him and someone he feels he needs to lead.

 

For now, before a ball has been kicked, we can only go on last season. last season, even against Premiership oppo, we did very well at the back. Let's just chill and accept that actually, we're not that bad in defence! And if we're good in the middle with hammond and Cork, sorted down the wings with the de Ridder, Al and AOC, Lambert hopefully back on form from the off (he will score goals in this league if he gets the ball and look at the supply), Guly looking magical in some games, barnard on a mission, Connolly looking to get in on the act, Forte with blistering pace, then, where's all the negative feeling coming from?

 

In the Prem, we were overloaded with average players and hod carriers. Now, we have a very good first 11 and a very good second 11. we will be envied in this league.

 

The only thing I am wondering is, where will we end up this season? We have all players to do well, we have the stadium and fans to push on, BUT, we need confidence from the off. We don't need a new CB in my opinion, we need a full house and EVERYONE getting behind the lads and not moaning, whinging and crying from the off. make no bones about it, this is a very very strong league and ANY team will do well to get promoted this season, let's hope we're looking up rather than over our shoulders come the end of the season, that'll do for me.

 

P.S. we will concede goals this season, it's how we react to conceding that is the key. And we will lose more games than last season, can you handle it?????

[Dalek2003]

FFS. draw 2-2 at Yeovil in a meaningless friendly and the wrist slitters are out.

 

Blah

Blah Blah !

[SaintBobby]

I remember seeing some Opta/Prozone or some similar stats at the end of last season.

 

I'm afraid I can't remember all the details, but the numbers for our defence were utterly immense.

 

In addition to so few goals conceded it was something like:

 

1. Fewer shots on goal allowed than any other league team

2. Fewer shots on target allowed than any other league team

3. Fewer corners conceded than any other league team

4. Fewer goals conceded from set pieces than any other league team

5. Fewer penalties conceded than all but one other league team

6. Best pass completion rate of all defences in the entire league

7. Highest % of defensive headers won than any other league team

8. Highest number of tackles won in our own half than any otehr league team

9. Fewest number of direct free kciks conceded than all but one other team

10. Fewest red and yellow cards of any defence in the league

 

I'm afraid that I can't remember the stats chapter and verse - one or two of these might be wrong and I may have left one or two out.

 

But it was very much something along these lines. If I've exaggerated, it's not by a great deal.

 

In other words, on virtually any metric you care to name, our defence last season was absolutely stunningly brilliant.

 

If these sort of stats aren't considered to count for anything at all - but instead, we're supposed to base our defensive approach on the gut feel of a few posters on a web forum, we are on a one-way trip to la-la land.

 

It seems to me that the only real worries in a formidable defensive season are:

 

1. Jaidi is a year older and a year slower

2. Neither Martin nor Seaborne have looked "immense" - but both may be improving still and opinions differ

3. Richardson had a poor season compared to expectations

 

All we really need to do is sign a new, quality centee back. But it wouldn't be a total disaster if we have to make do with the present bunch of defenders.

[DrunkenSaint]

I fully agree a huge part of a successful defence is what happens in front of them, however I think you are mistaken about Morgan.

Morgan is a defensive midfielder period, out of the two of them Cork is more likely to play further upfield, but actually overall they make an excellent pairing as both understand the importance of protecting the back 4.

I've always wondered a bit why people see Morgan as a primarily attacking player, maybe because he is technically very good. I guess I've seen him play about 15 times and each time he sits deep in midfield looking to collect the ball from the back and use his passing to initiate attacks.

He's almost never in the opposition box (as Cork was against WB when he scored).

Admittedly when he was really young he was a bit lightweight and breaking attacks up was not his strength, but in the last 2 years he's really added this to his game.

 

Correct!

[Saint Charlie]

Last season Morgan made numerous great interceptions in our penalty area and he is no longer a player that gets bullied. In the final game vs Walsall he setup the first goal by making a crunching tackle.

[CHAZZA 92]

Defence that started yesterday should start next week looked solid. Only change would be dickson for harding if your being picky.

[Turkish]

with Jaidi in defence I have never felt safer at set pieces in 25 years of watching Saints.

 

Very much so, you can count on one hand the amount of times he was beaten in the air over the course of last season. What he might lack in pace he makes up for in power and strength. Obviously Nige thinks he is good enough for another season.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I remember seeing some Opta/Prozone or some similar stats at the end of last season.

 

I'm afraid I can't remember all the details, but the numbers for our defence were utterly immense.

 

In addition to so few goals conceded it was something like:

 

1. Fewer shots on goal allowed than any other league team

2. Fewer shots on target allowed than any other league team

3. Fewer corners conceded than any other league team

4. Fewer goals conceded from set pieces than any other league team

5. Fewer penalties conceded than all but one other league team

6. Best pass completion rate of all defences in the entire league

7. Highest % of defensive headers won than any other league team

8. Highest number of tackles won in our own half than any otehr league team

9. Fewest number of direct free kciks conceded than all but one other team

10. Fewest red and yellow cards of any defence in the league

 

I'm afraid that I can't remember the stats chapter and verse - one or two of these might be wrong and I may have left one or two out.

 

But it was very much something along these lines. If I've exaggerated, it's not by a great deal.

 

In other words, on virtually any metric you care to name, our defence last season was absolutely stunningly brilliant.

 

If these sort of stats aren't considered to count for anything at all - but instead, we're supposed to base our defensive approach on the gut feel of a few posters on a web forum, we are on a one-way trip to la-la land.

 

It seems to me that the only real worries in a formidable defensive season are:

 

1. Jaidi is a year older and a year slower

2. Neither Martin nor Seaborne have looked "immense" - but both may be improving still and opinions differ

3. Richardson had a poor season compared to expectations

 

All we really need to do is sign a new, quality centee back. But it wouldn't be a total disaster if we have to make do with the present bunch of defenders.

 

So what you're saying is, we don't need to worry about this season because L1 is a perfect benchmark to assess the ability of our back 4 to deal with the NPC? I say this is potentially wrong for so many reasons, but to re-iterate just one - stamina. Opposing forwards in the NPC will be able to sustain pace and accuracy of attack for longer than their L1 counterparts. I hope the defence coaches are doing more than looking at those stats and then putting their feet up!

 

It's fine though - we all have differing opinions, even if you like to live yours in la-la-land! lol Seriously though, we're agreed that we need a new top CB.

[Saint Fan CaM]

We may or may not have defensive problems, but putting a game away doesn't apply to a friendly. Too many changes, not enough motivation and everyone knows the result doesn't matter.

 

Our defence proved excellent last season so deserve their chance. Hopefully we'll strengthen it in time too.

 

I've dealt with the we're OK, because we were OK last season myth. While a pre-season friendly may not be the be-all and end-all of a teams preparation, it does provide the gaffer with some information about his squad. I cannot imagine that Adkins is wholly pleased with the performance played out by the back 4 combination whoever was playing. You need to look at how ALL the full-back and ALL the CB's are progressing together to get an holistic picture. We're sound in midfield and looking sharp in attack. Defensively you can see we're not prepared yet - it might be just a top CB is needed - or it might be more fundamental issues.

[St_Tel49]

I remember seeing some Opta/Prozone or some similar stats at the end of last season.

 

I'm afraid I can't remember all the details, but the numbers for our defence were utterly immense.

 

In addition to so few goals conceded it was something like:

 

1. Fewer shots on goal allowed than any other league team

2. Fewer shots on target allowed than any other league team

3. Fewer corners conceded than any other league team

4. Fewer goals conceded from set pieces than any other league team

5. Fewer penalties conceded than all but one other league team

6. Best pass completion rate of all defences in the entire league

7. Highest % of defensive headers won than any other league team

8. Highest number of tackles won in our own half than any otehr league team

9. Fewest number of direct free kciks conceded than all but one other team

10. Fewest red and yellow cards of any defence in the league

 

I'm afraid that I can't remember the stats chapter and verse - one or two of these might be wrong and I may have left one or two out.

 

But it was very much something along these lines. If I've exaggerated, it's not by a great deal.

 

In other words, on virtually any metric you care to name, our defence last season was absolutely stunningly brilliant.

 

If these sort of stats aren't considered to count for anything at all - but instead, we're supposed to base our defensive approach on the gut feel of a few posters on a web forum, we are on a one-way trip to la-la land.

 

It seems to me that the only real worries in a formidable defensive season are:

 

1. Jaidi is a year older and a year slower

2. Neither Martin nor Seaborne have looked "immense" - but both may be improving still and opinions differ

3. Richardson had a poor season compared to expectations

 

All we really need to do is sign a new, quality centee back. But it wouldn't be a total disaster if we have to make do with the present bunch of defenders.

 

Ah! But these are just statistics and according to RobM they don't mean a thing.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

We clearly had a defence that in relative terms was great last season. However, it was far from perfect and will find the Championship a tougher proposition. I would be interested to see statistics relating to previous teams that have been promoted from L1 to the Championship and did not change their defence. How many more/less goals did they concede?

 

I am also interested to know the comparative statistics for home and away from last season. As one poster stated, teams attacked us more away from home than they did at home. I suspect that Championship teams will attack us a lot more than L1 teams did. This is where players need to be assessed.

 

My only matches last season were away matches and I am afraid that Seaborne was quite poor. In particular he was unable to deal with high bouncing balls. Nevertheless, he is still young, so hopefully this is an area in which he will improve. I have not seen Martin play, but I do not recall many fans making many critical remarks about his performances.

 

At full-back, our right backs seem to perhaps be better going forward than sitting deep to defend, but I have no particular problem with them. At left back, Dan Harding has always been fairly dependable, but he made a few errors in matches towards the end of the season, which concerned me a little.

[SaintBobby]

So what you're saying is, we don't need to worry about this season because L1 is a perfect benchmark to assess the ability of our back 4 to deal with the NPC? I say this is potentially wrong for so many reasons, but to re-iterate just one - stamina. Opposing forwards in the NPC will be able to sustain pace and accuracy of attack for longer than their L1 counterparts. I hope the defence coaches are doing more than looking at those stats and then putting their feet up!

 

It's fine though - we all have differing opinions, even if you like to live yours in la-la-land! lol Seriously though, we're agreed that we need a new top CB.

 

L1 isn't a perfect benchmark. But it's a pretty good benchmark.

 

If you're absolutely top grade in L1, you're likely to be okay in the NPC.

 

By way of example, Matt Le Tissier scored 69 goals in a single season for Vale Rec before moving to Southampton. That's not a perfect benchmark for being a great player in England's top division. But it is some kind of benchmark.

 

Players who start scoring hatricks regularly for the youth team. Not a perfect benchmark. But some kind of benchmark. Maybe they don't have the stamina, the pace, the guile or the fitness to make it as a mature pro. Plenty haven't. But at some point, you have to say "these stats are pretty good".

 

In direct answer to your question, I am saying "we don't need to worry about this season". That is, in fact, almost exactly what I'm saying.

 

That does not imply that the NPC is as easy as L1. Nor that we are bound to be the best defence in the NPC. Nor that the defensive coaches should be paid to put their feet up, read stats and do nothing else.

 

We should always seek to improve ( until, I suppose, we reach a point where no team can score a goal against us ever).

 

I'm genuinely trying to work out what is "la-la-land" about this analysis.

 

I think we probably already have about the 7th or 8th best defence in the NPC. And we are likely - although not certain - to improve this through a further signing.

 

That just seems to me to be a real world perspective.

Edited 1 August, 2011 by SaintBobby
"( until" = a swear word on the filter!

[hutch]

Defence that started yesterday should start next week looked solid. Only change would be dickson for harding if your being picky.

If the decision is close, always plump for the extra motivation that a player playing against his old club will have.

 

Harding has already scored twice against Leeds since he left them. Not bad for a full back

[Saint_Mabes]

Random but defence related question. Which club did we buy seabiscuit from and was he a regular starter for them? Can't for the life if me remember. Cheers

[patred44]

Exeter City is the answer

 

 

Richard Stearman of Wolves has just became available... could be worth a punt..

[Saint Fan CaM]

L1 isn't a perfect benchmark. But it's a pretty good benchmark.

 

If you're absolutely top grade in L1, you're likely to be okay in the NPC.

 

By way of example, Matt Le Tissier scored 69 goals in a single season for Vale Rec before moving to Southampton. That's not a perfect benchmark for being a great player in England's top division. But it is some kind of benchmark.

 

Players who start scoring hatricks regularly for the youth team. Not a perfect benchmark. But some kind of benchmark. Maybe they don't have the stamina, the pace, the guile or the fitness to make it as a mature pro. Plenty haven't. But at some point, you have to say "these stats are pretty good".

 

In direct answer to your question, I am saying "we don't need to worry about this season". That is, in fact, almost exactly what I'm saying.

 

That does not imply that the NPC is as easy as L1. Nor that we are bound to be the best defence in the NPC. Nor that the defensive coaches should be paid to put their feet up, read stats and do nothing else.

 

We should always seek to improve ( until, I suppose, we reach a point where no team can score a goal against us ever).

 

I'm genuinely trying to work out what is "la-la-land" about this analysis.

 

I think we probably already have about the 7th or 8th best defence in the NPC. And we are likely - although not certain - to improve this through a further signing.

 

That just seems to me to be a real world perspective.

 

OK, I'll accept that the stats make for interesting reading, equally though there are certain aspects of pre-season friendlies that can be considered as indicative of adverse issues that need to be addressed...i.e. it's not just about improving fitness - there's a performance element to assess also.

 

You say you think we already have about the 7th or 8th best defence in the NPC. How did you arrive at that conclusion? If you can provide a sound rationale, then my view might be changed completely actually. So far in this thread however there has not been one sensible explanation of why we should not be concerned about the effectiveness of our defence.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Exeter City is the answer

 

 

Richard Stearman of Wolves has just became available... could be worth a punt..

 

Might well be a good acquisition this - I think age-wise he's in the ball park, but would wages be an issue?

[pingwing]

Richard Stearman of Wolves has just became available... could be worth a punt..

 

When did that happen?!?!?! SIGN HIM UP!!!!

[saint1977]

Exeter City is the answer

 

 

Richard Stearman of Wolves has just became available... could be worth a punt..

 

Stearman would be quality and may be an option if the daft quota system on work permits denies Jemal. The Exeter fans had mixed views on Dan, some rated him and others thought he was clumsy and seemed to pick him a lot of yellow cards. He got booed a bit when he came on as a sub vs them at Exeter last season. I can see a good player there with some development and coaching but we'd need to persevere with him through a few mistakes and I'm not sure if the club are patient enough to do that. The fans certainly aren't!

[patred44]

When did that happen?!?!?! SIGN HIM UP!!!!

 

Heard it in Ipswich this morning, whilst visiting their academy at Bent Lane..apparently Ipswich are interested in him as well.

They see us as potential rivals for him.

[S-Clarke]

Heard it in Ipswich this morning, whilst visiting their academy at Bent Lane..apparently Ipswich are interested in him as well.

They see us as potential rivals for him.

 

He's not going anywhere

 

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12876_7075872,00.html

[Village Saint]

what do you expect...apart from QPR..i think we had the best defence in all 4 leagues...including man u...

 

Indeed in the second half of the season wasn't it also better than QPR's?

[NickG]

Exeter City is the answer

 

 

Richard Stearman of Wolves has just became available... could be worth a punt..

 

not according to his manager

McCarthy maintains that even if there was interest in Stearman he would still not consider selling the defender.

 

"Stears is an important member of our squad," the manager told Wolves' official website.

 

"I wouldn't be willing to let him go so that puts that right one out of the water

[funkymojo44]

Point 1.

Good defence starts with good shape and closing down in front of the back four.

In middle of midfield, Cork is good at this. Hammond and Chaplow better options to Schneido in this regard. Is Schneido's creativity enough to warrant a place?

 

Point 2

Davis is still good enough.

Makes some silly decisions, but no gk is perfect. He's as good as we could wish for.

 

Point 3

CB - Of all our defenders, Fonte is the only one from whom we couldn't hope for better. Stick.

CB - We all have our favourites, but basically the other centre-back is a matter of picking the least bad option. Not a good situation.

RB - Richardson has been a disappointment; Butterfield is a better option, but he's really not exceptional. Adequate at best.

LB - Dickson has also been a disappointment; Harding is a real weakness defensively - he's ok when they run at him, but is marking at the far post is woeful. We're vulnerable here.

 

Conclusion

 

1. With creativity from Lallana, Chamberlain, Connolly further forward, I'd go for Cork and Hammond in middle of midfield.

 

2. If I were Adkins, I'd be desperate for another top quality CB. Fragile full-backs is one thing, fragile central defence is crippling. Ask Arsene Wenger.

 

Great post. Agree with every point made there, a strong CB signing is what we need desperately, however as time presses on it could be Jan before we can get the right player for the club.

[patred44]

not according to his manager

McCarthy maintains that even if there was interest in Stearman he would still not consider selling the defender.

 

"Stears is an important member of our squad," the manager told Wolves' official website.

 

"I wouldn't be willing to let him go so that puts that right one out of the water

 

Of course McCarthy will say that...

 

heres what he said about two of his other players

 

He said: “Mouyokolo does feel on the fringes – as do all of them who are on the bench.

 

“But I have a squad of players and apart from the 11 who start on any given day, the rest all feel on the fringes. They’re all brassed off, frustrated and they think they should be in the team.

 

“But there’s no chance of him or Dave Jones going"

 

a short while after

Mouyokolo has gone!

Dave Jones has gone!

[NickG]

not if he was touting him as 'available'

[NickG]

must be going to ipswich Mirror reported it last week!

 

Can't say remember much about him

[Saint Fan CaM]

I really do wonder what people are expecting? Martin played well when he came in, thought he was exceptional and shows great potential. Seabourne is a very big lad. I might question his passing a little and this is where martin is my preference, but, he IS a good CB. Jiadi, what a great pro! Yes he is going to struggle at his age, but, let's just accept that he will play when the oppo have strong slow attackers. We were very good at the back last season, and I felt that in most games, the defence had the oppo in their pockets, under control and we looked confident and strong.

 

The full backs is more of a questionable position for me, but, this is a very hard position to find very good players. We have been very fortunate with the likes of Bale and Bridge in recent times, but, more often than not, the full backs play a supporting role, not a leading role when going forward. As long as they stop their man from progressing down the wing, we are doing well, job done. Harding is a very difficult defender to get round, Butterfield is a very good defensive player and makes it very difficult for his attacker to get anything clean into the box. So, what's all the fuss?

 

I think this CB / Defensive debate goes back to the last few years, ie pre-take over and the arrival of ML and NC. under the sewardship of Lowe and then Mikey and Leon, we never really addressed the defensive holes and weaknesses. partly because of money and partly because of necessary requirements elsewhere in the team. It became apparent that this team needed a whole new defence when we were taken over, and, we got one. We got a very good one. We got the BEST in the league. We got the second best in all leagues. We are very fortunate to have Fonte, Jaidi, Seabourne and Martin. in the next 4 years, I would love to see martin and Seabourne spark up a partnership. I think a natural left footer and right footer is invaluable at CB. Fonte is good, he will do well this coming year, but, I think he needs a Martin or Seabourne behind him and someone he feels he needs to lead.

 

For now, before a ball has been kicked, we can only go on last season. last season, even against Premiership oppo, we did very well at the back. Let's just chill and accept that actually, we're not that bad in defence! And if we're good in the middle with hammond and Cork, sorted down the wings with the de Ridder, Al and AOC, Lambert hopefully back on form from the off (he will score goals in this league if he gets the ball and look at the supply), Guly looking magical in some games, barnard on a mission, Connolly looking to get in on the act, Forte with blistering pace, then, where's all the negative feeling coming from?

 

In the Prem, we were overloaded with average players and hod carriers. Now, we have a very good first 11 and a very good second 11. we will be envied in this league.

 

The only thing I am wondering is, where will we end up this season? We have all players to do well, we have the stadium and fans to push on, BUT, we need confidence from the off. We don't need a new CB in my opinion, we need a full house and EVERYONE getting behind the lads and not moaning, whinging and crying from the off. make no bones about it, this is a very very strong league and ANY team will do well to get promoted this season, let's hope we're looking up rather than over our shoulders come the end of the season, that'll do for me.

 

P.S. we will concede goals this season, it's how we react to conceding that is the key. And we will lose more games than last season, can you handle it?????

 

Err, actually no we didn't. Remember the Pimpley or Man Ure games? Towards the end of those games we were cut a new one because our back 4 were nowhere near as fit and agile as the opposition. That's the biggest difference between Prem players and NPC/good L1 players - stamina. I'm not a betting man, but I reckon most of the goals we concede in the NPC will come in the last 20 minutes of the 2nd half.

Edited 1 August, 2011 by Saint Fan CaM

[St_Tel49]

Err, actually no we didn't. Remember the Pimpley or Man Ure games? Towards the end of those games we were cut a new one because our back 4 were nowhere near as fit and agile as the opposition. That's the biggest difference between Prem players and NPC/good L1 players - stamina. I'm not a betting man, but I reckon most of the goals we concede in the NPC will come in the last 20 minutes of the 2nd half.

I don't believe that it had anything to do with fitness - more that premiership teams upped their game when it looked as though they might lose. BTW - is "Cutting a new one" the new cliche that seems to have cropped up?

[SaintBobby]

OK, I'll accept that the stats make for interesting reading, equally though there are certain aspects of pre-season friendlies that can be considered as indicative of adverse issues that need to be addressed...i.e. it's not just about improving fitness - there's a performance element to assess also.

 

You say you think we already have about the 7th or 8th best defence in the NPC. How did you arrive at that conclusion? If you can provide a sound rationale, then my view might be changed completely actually. So far in this thread however there has not been one sensible explanation of why we should not be concerned about the effectiveness of our defence.

 

 

7th or 8th is a guess, of course.

 

But if your stats are as glitteringly fantastic as ours were in L1 and given that the leap from L1 to to NPC is not totally and utterly enormous, I think you can fairly assume we'd be "fine".

 

Maybe 10th. Maybe 12th. Be a pessimist and say 14th if you like. Still doesn't constitute a "worry" in my view. If you think we're 20th or worse, then that's a worry. But what actual evidence is there for such a proposition?

 

And how brilliant wld we have to be in L1 before you accepted those stats had "carry over"? (if we had kept 46 clean sheets in L1, would you still say "bah, these are just stats...the NPC is a totally different level"?)

 

When tested last season against Premiership opponents, our defence also performed well (Bolton, Blackpool, Man Utd).

 

Of course, this is no grounds for laziness or complacency. We should seek to improve every area of the team if we possibly can.

 

But you're the one putting forward the hypothesis that we need to be concerned or worried, so I think the onus is on you to provide the evidence.

 

I might as well say "I am deeply worried about our ability to score from the penalty spot next year, goalkeepers in the NPC are better than those in League One."

 

Someone might then point out that we haven't missed a penalty in "open play" for more than two years (and have, I think, only missed one in a penalty shoot out).

 

I can just reply "meh...that's just a bunch stats...they don't count...I'm still worried and I hope the coaches who work on penalties aren't just putting their feet up and being lazy".

 

The argument just becomes circular. In fact, it's not even an argument. It's an irrebuttable presumption.

 

It seems impossible to even conceive of the evidence you might want to stop worrying about our defence. There is nothing that exists in the real world that would be good enough for you.

 

Of course, you may just turn out to be right. But not on the basis of any rational evidence that presently exists.

[Saint Fan CaM]

7th or 8th is a guess, of course.

 

But if your stats are as glitteringly fantastic as ours were in L1 and given that the leap from L1 to to NPC is not totally and utterly enormous, I think you can fairly assume we'd be "fine".

 

Maybe 10th. Maybe 12th. Be a pessimist and say 14th if you like. Still doesn't constitute a "worry" in my view. If you think we're 20th or worse, then that's a worry. But what actual evidence is there for such a proposition?

 

And how brilliant wld we have to be in L1 before you accepted those stats had "carry over"? (if we had kept 46 clean sheets in L1, would you still say "bah, these are just stats...the NPC is a totally different level"?)

 

When tested last season against Premiership opponents, our defence also performed well (Bolton, Blackpool, Man Utd).

 

Of course, this is no grounds for laziness or complacency. We should seek to improve every area of the team if we possibly can.

 

But you're the one putting forward the hypothesis that we need to be concerned or worried, so I think the onus is on you to provide the evidence.

 

I might as well say "I am deeply worried about our ability to score from the penalty spot next year, goalkeepers in the NPC are better than those in League One."

 

Someone might then point out that we haven't missed a penalty in "open play" for more than two years (and have, I think, only missed one in a penalty shoot out).

 

I can just reply "meh...that's just a bunch stats...they don't count...I'm still worried and I hope the coaches who work on penalties aren't just putting their feet up and being lazy".

 

The argument just becomes circular. In fact, it's not even an argument. It's an irrebuttable presumption.

 

It seems impossible to even conceive of the evidence you might want to stop worrying about our defence. There is nothing that exists in the real world that would be good enough for you.

 

Of course, you may just turn out to be right. But not on the basis of any rational evidence that presently exists.

 

Hang on a minute - I've not said I am worried about anything. I have suggested that we should be concerned - yes - and tried to suggest that L1 stats do not necessarily provide cast iron evidence that everything will be OK in the NPC - yes. I have suggested that perhaps the pre-season performance against Yeovil, while not an absolute, could be indicative of an issue that stretches beyond a replacement CB - yes.

 

If you look at my predictions for next season in those threads you will see that I am plumbing for just outside the play-offs - not a disaster. However, my point is that to consider a promotion push, we need to improve defence and what I was trying to do was to generate a debate on how we might do that. I am certainly not claiming to have all the answers, but I do believe the defence needs to be strengthened to achieve the aims of the club from this point on.

 

Unfortunately, AS USUAL on here from the usual culprits, a debate is misconstrued as being either a chance to call someone a petty name (Benji) or to shoot down the poster without putting up a reasoned debate. To be honest you've provided your view which is fair enough, however I was hoping for a bit more of detailed analysis of how the back 4 operate. Just trying to get people talk about football which I thought was the point of a football forum? Oh well...

[John Smith]

Err, actually no we didn't. Remember the Pimpley or Man Ure games? Towards the end of those games we were cut a new one because our back 4 were nowhere near as fit and agile as the opposition. That's the biggest difference between Prem players and NPC/good L1 players - stamina. I'm not a betting man, but I reckon most of the goals we concede in the NPC will come in the last 20 minutes of the 2nd half.

 

Err, no we didn't actually! Remember, Pompey? Err we didn't play them last season! Err, remember, err.

 

Great answer Saint Fan Cam, let's re-write history to suite your nonsense! Pompey weren't even in the Prem last season, or did you miss the whole admin thing the season before?

 

And, a 1-2 against Manure isn't THAT bad, and the goals, Owen on 65mins and Hernandez on 75, doesn't show a lack of fitness. In fact it shows that Manure had to try and overturn a 1-0 defecit and couldn't make it safe for the final 15mins by getting a critical 3rd goal. Yes, they were better than us, but one goal in the last 15mins against the eventual champions, isn't a terrible result for the defense, as you are implying.

 

Bolton scored in the 31st minute! They held onto that lead and it ended 1-0! Defense crumbling in the last 20mins? Nope no evidence here!

 

What about Blackpool? Another Prem team from last season? Nope, we won that 2-0! Where's the last 20mins collapse you talk about?

 

So, err, your err take on reality is slightly skewed! In those 3 games against Prem teams we only conceded 1 goal in the last 20mins, as per your 'arguement' and that was on 75th min and against the eventual champions. There was no drubbing, we lost by one goal, we lost by one goal against Bolton, scored in the first half, and we beat Blackpool without conceding at all.

 

So, stop trying to re-write history to get a point across. Amend your post and apologise for lying to prove your point.

 

Basically, you have no point, no proof, no stats and you are unable to build a case for a debate. You picked ONE line from my lengthy post, and you were still WRONg.

 

Try building a case yourself against my point of view, and let's watch it crumble into dust, a bit like your memory by the looks of it!

[SaintBobby]

Hang on a minute - I've not said I am worried about anything. I have suggested that we should be concerned - yes - and tried to suggest that L1 stats do not necessarily provide cast iron evidence that everything will be OK in the NPC - yes. I have suggested that perhaps the pre-season performance against Yeovil, while not an absolute, could be indicative of an issue that stretches beyond a replacement CB - yes.

 

If you look at my predictions for next season in those threads you will see that I am plumbing for just outside the play-offs - not a disaster. However, my point is that to consider a promotion push, we need to improve defence and what I was trying to do was to generate a debate on how we might do that. I am certainly not claiming to have all the answers, but I do believe the defence needs to be strengthened to achieve the aims of the club from this point on.

 

Unfortunately, AS USUAL on here from the usual culprits, a debate is misconstrued as being either a chance to call someone a petty name (Benji) or to shoot down the poster without putting up a reasoned debate. To be honest you've provided your view which is fair enough, however I was hoping for a bit more of detailed analysis of how the back 4 operate. Just trying to get people talk about football which I thought was the point of a football forum? Oh well...

 

I certainly wasn't trying to throw any abuse around - just trying to put forward a robust argument.

 

Reasons to be cheerful, in addition to the L1 stats:

 

1. Martin is a season older and a fair few games better. Not a great starting option IMHO yet, but better as back up than a year ago.

2. Jaidi surprised us last season by being able to play so many games so well, with only a handful of errors (I can only remember one massive gaffe - Brighton away). Yes, he's a year older but we weren't relying on his pace last season anyway.

3. Hard to imagine Richardson will be as disappointing as last season. At least he doesn't start crocked.

4. Even if Cork starts in centre midfield, he provides quality cover at centre back or right back.

5. I remain unconvinced about Seaborne, but at least he now has some experience at covering left back.

6. A reasonably settled back four now has another season under their belt of playing together.

7. Perhaps most importantly, we are very likely to sign a new quality centre back. Yes, I'd have preferred this to be done in June - but the world doesn't work like that. Even if we don't finalise a deal with Jemal or that QPR bloke, I'd expect the no. 5 shirt to be assigned by August 31st.

 

The more I think about it, the more I'm increasingly concerned about lack of firepower up front rather than solidity at the back.

Edited 2 August, 2011 by SaintBobby
typographicals

[Saint Fan CaM]

Err, no we didn't actually! Remember, Pompey? Err we didn't play them last season! Err, remember, err.

 

Great answer Saint Fan Cam, let's re-write history to suite your nonsense! Pompey weren't even in the Prem last season, or did you miss the whole admin thing the season before?

 

Didn't say they were. You're "re-writing history".

 

And, a 1-2 against Manure isn't THAT bad, and the goals, Owen on 65mins and Hernandez on 75, doesn't show a lack of fitness. In fact it shows that Manure had to try and overturn a 1-0 defecit and couldn't make it safe for the final 15mins by getting a critical 3rd goal. Yes, they were better than us, but one goal in the last 15mins against the eventual champions, isn't a terrible result for the defense, as you are implying.

 

My point was not aimed at the result, it was to typify the difference in stamina - if you think there is no difference between the fitness of a L1 player and a Prem you are wrong.

Bolton scored in the 31st minute! They held onto that lead and it ended 1-0! Defense crumbling in the last 20mins? Nope no evidence here!

 

Accept for that game the defence were quite resolute - perhaps the tactics worked?

 

What about Blackpool? Another Prem team from last season? Nope, we won that 2-0! Where's the last 20mins collapse you talk about?

 

That was no Prem team!

 

So, err, your err take on reality is slightly skewed! In those 3 games against Prem teams we only conceded 1 goal in the last 20mins, as per your 'arguement' and that was on 75th min and against the eventual champions. There was no drubbing, we lost by one goal, we lost by one goal against Bolton, scored in the first half, and we beat Blackpool without conceding at all.

 

So, stop trying to re-write history to get a point across. Amend your post and apologise for lying to prove your point.

 

Unlike you, I am able to refrain from libel to discuss a subject - nothing about re-writing history. Well done you.

 

Basically, you have no point, no proof, no stats and you are unable to build a case for a debate. You picked ONE line from my lengthy post, and you were still WRONg.

 

Try building a case yourself against my point of view, and let's watch it crumble into dust, a bit like your memory by the looks of it!

 

You clearly have no concept of debate and discussion. For some reason you feel any questionning of your point of view is a personal attack (perhaps understandable if someone had offered the abuse you give to others). Calm down and seek help mate - you have issues.

 

As above...

[Saint Fan CaM]

I certainly wasn't trying to throw any abuse around - just trying to put forward a robust argument.

 

Reasons to be cheerful, in addition to the L1 stats:

 

1. Martin is a season older and a fair few games better. Not a great starting option IMHO yet, but better as back up than a year ago.

Agreed, although my view is his progress should be viewed relative to the league we're in. He needs more games and I would loan him out.

2. Jaidi surprised us last season by being able to play so many games so well, with only a handful of errors (I can only remember one massive gaffe - Brighton away). Yes, he's a year older but we weren't relying on his pace last season anyway.

He's a good asset still but remember the bench spaces will be limited. Adkins has fewer options and second guessing Jaidi's fitness may be considered a liability in that regard.

3. Hard to imagine Richardson will be as disappointing as last season. At least he doesn't start crocked.

Personally, I don't think there's too much to seperate the RB's although Butterfield would get my vote to be honest.

4. Even if Cork starts in centre midfield, he provides quality cover at centre back or right back.

As you say, I believe Cork will start as many as possible in midfield as long as he's fit.

5. I remain unconvinced about Seaborne, but at least he now has some experience at covering left back.

Agreed.

6. A reasonably settled back four now has another season under their belt of playing together.

Very much agree here - it is the one big positive across the team we take from L1 into the NPC.

7. Perhaps most importantly, we are very likely to sign a new quality centre back. Yes, I'd have preferred this to be done in June - but the world doesn't work like that. Even if we don't finalise a deal with Jemal or that QPR bloke, I'd expect the no. 5 shirt to be assigned by August 31st.

Agreed to a point - yes we need another CB. However, I am also concerned about the tactical aspect also. For example, my view is that one pairing that requires as much consistency as possible is at CB and I am not convinced this is happening enough because there's no natural partner for Fonte. Let's hope the no.5 shirt is that man.

The more I think about it, the more I'm increasingly concerned about lack of firepower up front rather than solidity at the back.

 

Thanks for a reasoned answer - you've made some good points, although I am still not convinced that attack presents more concern than defence TBH.