The big Defence Debate

[Saint Fan CaM]

OK, right off the bat I want to make it clear I'm not slating any one member of the squad here. However, I think a little reasoned debate about our defensive line-up would be a good thing and in particular the type of players that we've got across the back 4. Please try and keep an open mind when posting - don't slag off others opinions - just state your own so we can try to get to a consensus.

 

The key issue is this : we have striking options all over the pitch now - we don't have many problems scoring goals - but unless we have an iron solid defence we will be punished time and time again by at least 10 teams in this division. We need to improve - but where?

 

The first article of evidence I would like to offer up is the Yeovil game. Twice we went ahead - we dominate the game against a team we should be streets ahead of if we're to gain promotion - and yet we can't put the game away. Why? I know it will be said this was only a warm-up friendly, but that's no excuse (and Adkins displeasure would reflect that too). Making a slip against a prem team like WBA is forgiveable - not a team at Yeovils level surely?

 

There are no perfect answers to this dilemna IMO. I would like to think bringing in another quality CB to parter Fonte would do the trick, but is this the only issue? Is there more to it like poor coaching or the mix and balance of styles or is it a collective thing where the overall competency of our back 4 is just plain low? Is it because we are so attacking from midfield on, that our defence gets little assistance and cover?

 

Whatever the problem(s), it/they need sorting out because I would argue that at the moment the signs are that it will be our defence that will let us down this season. Over to you.

Edited 31 July, 2011 by Saint Fan CaM
typo

[The Kraken]

I struggle to take anything meaningful from pre-season games, I really do. From the 14-0 victories we used to see on our Scnado tours, right through to these, I really don't look into these any further than as a fitness and sharpness exercise.

 

With regards to the defence, I do think Jaidi will get found out at times at this level. In the air he's still going to be as dominant as ever, but for teams/strikers that don't have to resort to lumping it he may struggle. Fonte should be fine, Harding/Dickson also, I'm still very unsure about Richardson or Butterfield and whether either are good enough for a team in the higher echelons of the Championship.

 

I guess we'll start finding out pretty soon.

[Thedelldays]

seaborne was excellent yesterday....his passing was very good also

jaidi was just a mess when he came on

[batterseasaint]

The problem we have is that we don't have a clear partner to Fonte. And that is because none of the possibilities are making the spot their own. Adkins wishes he had Jaidi five years ago, but he knows he can't rely on him. So we end up having to chop

and change the centre back pairing.

 

We need a clear first choice pair, who play all the games unless injured.

[Thedelldays]

The problem we have is that we don't have a clear partner to Fonte. And that is because none of the possibilities are making the spot their own. Adkins wishes he had Jaidi five years ago, but he knows he can't rely on him. So we end up having to chop

and change the centre back pairing.

 

We need a clear first choice pair, who play all the games unless injured.

 

we do....fonte and seaborne

[Window Cleaner]

The problem we have is that we don't have a clear partner to Fonte. And that is because none of the possibilities are making the spot their own. Adkins wishes he had Jaidi five years ago, but he knows he can't rely on him. So we end up having to chop

and change the centre back pairing.

 

We need a clear first choice pair, who play all the games unless injured.

 

Fonte gave away the penalty, didn't NA say something about marking on the wrong side?

Haven't seen the incident yet though so whether that's Fonte marking on the wrong side or some other player I couldn't yet say.

I'm not at all keen on Richardson as a defender, nor Seaborne for that matter but until we get a few matches into the Championship campaign it's not easy to say what are exact defensive weaknesses are. I'd say Seaborne but perhaps even it's Fonte that causes the problems.

[S-Clarke]

It's easy to read too much into pre-season games, Adkins is tweaking and playing around with things, players positions, formations etc.. - but not making it obvious to us that he is.

 

People forget too quickly - last year we had an astonishing defensive record in the 2nd half of the season and one of the things Adkins did when he came here is stopped us leaking goals. He's made it pretty clear from day 1 that teams with a good ''defense'' win things.

 

I know this is a level up, but whenever i see us competitively we have a great shape, everyone works their frigging socks off closing down and we are incredibly hard to beat - that won't change when the real fixtures start.

[revolution saint]

I struggle to take anything meaningful from pre-season games, I really do. From the 14-0 victories we used to see on our Scnado tours, right through to these, I really don't look into these any further than as a fitness and sharpness exercise.

 

With regards to the defence, I do think Jaidi will get found out at times at this level. In the air he's still going to be as dominant as ever, but for teams/strikers that don't have to resort to lumping it he may struggle. Fonte should be fine, Harding/Dickson also, I'm still very unsure about Richardson or Butterfield and whether either are good enough for a team in the higher echelons of the Championship.

 

I guess we'll start finding out pretty soon.

 

Agreed, pre-season games are so far removed from competitive games that it's hard to make any kind of judgement.

[RobM]

Last season this was a problem. Every time the opposition had a set piece you could feel the entire stadium become nervous. Every time they went on the attack against us, you just felt there was a goal there. I can't think of a time since the Claus and Killer days when there was absolute faith in our defence.

 

IMO, we need that same partnership back again. Fonte is one half of it, but we need the clever, calm and controlled no-nonsense CB that doesn't let anything through. Combine this with the intelligence, vision and control of Fonte and you've got a great partnership. This is worth big investment, IMO.

 

All we then need to do is remind our full backs that they are defenders first and foremost...

[Fowllyd]

Last season this was a problem. Every time the opposition had a set piece you could feel the entire stadium become nervous. Every time they went on the attack against us, you just felt there was a goal there. I can't think of a time since the Claus and Killer days when there was absolute faith in our defence.

 

IMO, we need that same partnership back again. Fonte is one half of it, but we need the clever, calm and controlled no-nonsense CB that doesn't let anything through. Combine this with the intelligence, vision and control of Fonte and you've got a great partnership. This is worth big investment, IMO.

 

All we then need to do is remind our full backs that they are defenders first and foremost...

 

Last season we conceded the fewest goals of all League One teams - 38 over 46 matches. That's not even a goal a game. If the whole stadium became nervous every time the opposition attacked or had a set piece, they really had no reason to. Our defence was rock solid.

[Saint Since '51]

Point 1.

Good defence starts with good shape and closing down in front of the back four.

In middle of midfield, Cork is good at this. Hammond and Chaplow better options to Schneido in this regard. Is Schneido's creativity enough to warrant a place?

 

Point 2

Davis is still good enough.

Makes some silly decisions, but no gk is perfect. He's as good as we could wish for.

 

Point 3

CB - Of all our defenders, Fonte is the only one from whom we couldn't hope for better. Stick.

CB - We all have our favourites, but basically the other centre-back is a matter of picking the least bad option. Not a good situation.

RB - Richardson has been a disappointment; Butterfield is a better option, but he's really not exceptional. Adequate at best.

LB - Dickson has also been a disappointment; Harding is a real weakness defensively - he's ok when they run at him, but is marking at the far post is woeful. We're vulnerable here.

 

Conclusion

 

1. With creativity from Lallana, Chamberlain, Connolly further forward, I'd go for Cork and Hammond in middle of midfield.

 

2. If I were Adkins, I'd be desperate for another top quality CB. Fragile full-backs is one thing, fragile central defence is crippling. Ask Arsene Wenger.

[RobM]

Last season we conceded the fewest goals of all League One teams - 38 over 46 matches. That's not even a goal a game. If the whole stadium became nervous every time the opposition attacked or had a set piece, they really had no reason to. Our defence was rock solid.

 

So are you absolutely confident in our defence, going into this new season?

 

Also those stats do look very good, but stats don't tell the whole story and can be used to prove any point you need. You could argue that for a promotion chasing team, conceding nearly a goal every game isn't good enough.

[Thedelldays]

So are you absolutely confident in our defence, going into this new season?

 

Also those stats do look very good, but stats don't tell the whole story and can be used to prove any point you need. You could argue that for a promotion chasing team, conceding nearly a goal every game isn't good enough.

what do you expect...apart from QPR..i think we had the best defence in all 4 leagues...including man u...

[S-Clarke]

I bet we wouldn't be having this debate had we beaten Yeovil 2-0

 

We had a very good defence last year so the coaching isn't an issue. We will bring in another CB next week, of that I'm sure.

[Fowllyd]

So are you absolutely confident in our defence, going into this new season?

 

Also those stats do look very good, but stats don't tell the whole story and can be used to prove any point you need. You could argue that for a promotion chasing team, conceding nearly a goal every game isn't good enough.

 

Your post was about last season, and that's what I replied to; I didn't mention next season. Of course the statistics look very good - for they are very good. Every other team in our league last season conceded more goals that we did - in what way can this statistic be used to prove anything other than that? What other story is there to be told here which isn't told by the statistics? And how can shipping fewer goals than all other teams in our division (and fewer than all other Football League teams except QPR) be not good enough for a promotion-chasing team?

 

I'm afraid I really can't follow your reasoning here.

[MarkSFC]

Seaborne will never be anything other than average League One. He lacks the pace to step up (as does Jaidhi now) and against quick lively teams that press hard he hasn't the speed of thought or level of footballing ability to cope.

 

Martin will be fine as 4th choice and Radhi as 3rd choice. We need a player who is quick, strong and better than Fonte.

 

Not sure Harding or Dickson will ever be Premier quality but probably good enough this year, and hopefully Reeves and/or Shaw will break through soon.

 

Butterfield and Richardson have played at this level before so we should be ok this year.

 

I would like to see a new keeper but clearly Adkins is more than happy with Davis and Bart so fair enough!

 

Overall we need AT LEAST one CB NOW and let Seaborne go even sooner!

[Dellman]

Didn't this defence make the club record of clean sheets? give it a break

[RobM]

My reasoning is very simple - I don't believe our defence is good enough. That's it. I think we need a CB and I think our FB's are too attack-minded. I think last season we looked nervous in defence, especially at set pieces, yet we're going into this season to play better opposition with the same lineup.

[RobM]

Didn't this defence make the club record of clean sheets? give it a break

 

Club record. Think about it.

[Bartosz Bialkowski]

We have a huge plaque in the changing rooms which says "defence wins championships"

 

I think that makes Adkins views pretty clear.

[Psycrow]

So are you absolutely confident in our defence, going into this new season?

 

Also those stats do look very good, but stats don't tell the whole story and can be used to prove any point you need. You could argue that for a promotion chasing team, conceding nearly a goal every game isn't good enough.

 

Indeed stats can be used to prove anything, but that's usually said about obscure stats, not straight up stays like "least conceded goals in the league shows our defense is good". Let's look at it another way though, we conceded 13 goals in 23 home games last season. Only Man U, Man City and Swansea bettered that last season. It was equalled by Chelsea. But because you felt the ground got nervous with every opposition attack and set piece, that proves we have a poor defense and we ignore these facts? You asked for reasoned debate, you can't just dismiss these facts.

 

And remember, goals conceded is more than stats, it helps decide the league in a points stalemate, as it has done for years. It's not some new type of figure being flung at clubs by Opta or prozone.

[JibMcdo]

I do think we are weak at the back and have been since we went down to League 1. I keep reading Seaborne was excellent yesterday - he was nothing better than OK. No way would I want him to start alongside Fonte regularly in the CCC. We are also weak at full back. Butterfield can cross a ball and Harding can charge forward but defensively they will get found out this season. It is this why I think we will finish mid-table and not in the playoffs. Against what is a very, very ordinary Yeovil attack, we managed to look like we were under pressure and looked shaky.

[welshsaint92]

Point 1.

Good defence starts with good shape and closing down in front of the back four.

In middle of midfield, Cork is good at this. Hammond and Chaplow better options to Schneido in this regard. Is Schneido's creativity enough to warrant a place?

 

Point 2

Davis is still good enough.

Makes some silly decisions, but no gk is perfect. He's as good as we could wish for.

 

Point 3

CB - Of all our defenders, Fonte is the only one from whom we couldn't hope for better. Stick.

CB - We all have our favourites, but basically the other centre-back is a matter of picking the least bad option. Not a good situation.

RB - Richardson has been a disappointment; Butterfield is a better option, but he's really not exceptional. Adequate at best.

LB - Dickson has also been a disappointment; Harding is a real weakness defensively - he's ok when they run at him, but is marking at the far post is woeful. We're vulnerable here.

 

Conclusion

 

1. With creativity from Lallana, Chamberlain, Connolly further forward, I'd go for Cork and Hammond in middle of midfield.

 

2. If I were Adkins, I'd be desperate for another top quality CB. Fragile full-backs is one thing, fragile central defence is crippling. Ask Arsene Wenger.

 

Totally agree with this.

 

IMO, other than Fonte our defence is not of the same quality as the rest of the squad.

[Thedelldays]

My reasoning is very simple - I don't believe our defence is good enough. That's it. I think we need a CB and I think our FB's are too attack-minded. I think last season we looked nervous in defence, especially at set pieces, yet we're going into this season to play better opposition with the same lineup.

 

good enough for what though...?

[welshsaint92]

seaborne was excellent yesterday....his passing was very good also

jaidi was just a mess when he came on

 

I was impressed with Seaborne until Mackail-Smith tore him a new one.

[RobM]

Indeed stats can be used to prove anything, but that's usually said about obscure stats, not straight up stays like "least conceded goals in the league shows our defense is good". Let's look at it another way though, we conceded 13 goals in 23 home games last season. Only Man U, Man City and Swansea bettered that last season. It was equalled by Chelsea. But because you felt the ground got nervous with every opposition attack and set piece, that proves we have a poor defense and we ignore these facts? You asked for reasoned debate, you can't just dismiss these facts.

 

And remember, goals conceded is more than stats, it helps decide the league in a points stalemate, as it has done for years. It's not some new type of figure being flung at clubs by Opta or prozone.

 

I'm looking at the performance, the confidence and the affect this has on the team. I don't just look at numbers and think job-done. I'm also looking forward to next season and how our current squad will cope. If you would like to debate that, please do. You haven't actually commented on my post though, you are simply saying look at the numbers. And using comparisons against teams that play in totally different leagues offers nothing to this.

 

As you say yourself, goals conceded is more than stats. Having confidence in your back four is as important as having confidence in your keeper. Do you think a confident back-four that are reliable, consistent and inspire confidence in the rest of the squad is important? Or is it absolutely fine to not have this, so long as the stats are good? Just like the keeper... if a keeper doesn't concede many goals, but drops the ball, makes life more difficult than it needs to be, but ultimately keeps it out of the net his players in front will be nervous. Same applies to the defence. I haven't said last season was terrible, I said I think we can do better and, more importantly, need to improve ready for this coming season.

[Thedelldays]

I was impressed with Seaborne until Mackail-Smith tore him a new one.

 

it happens...

remember when a little latvian tore one of the best CB in the world at the time a new one...

 

pahars made stam look like a complete mug in his own back yard

[RobM]

good enough for what though...?

 

Playing football in the Championship, obviously.

[RobM]

Totally agree with this.

 

IMO, other than Fonte our defence is not of the same quality as the rest of the squad.

 

You're not allowed to say that, the stats don't back it up

[Thedelldays]

Playing football in the Championship, obviously.

 

so, one of the best defences in the entire country (relatively) will now struggle against the mighty barnsley, donny and the like

 

the defence is fine...sure we could have another addition and I hope we do at CB..as I think jaidi will not feature so much...but its fine IMO

[benjii]

Last season this was a problem. Every time the opposition had a set piece you could feel the entire stadium become nervous. Every time they went on the attack against us, you just felt there was a goal there. I can't think of a time since the Claus and Killer days when there was absolute faith in our defence.

 

..

 

What?!

 

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?

[RobM]

What?!

 

Seriously, wtf are you talking about?

 

Defenders. This is a 'Big Defence Debate', so I thought that would have been obvious?

[RobM]

so, one of the best defences in the entire country (relatively) will now struggle against the mighty barnsley, donny and the like

 

the defence is fine...sure we could have another addition and I hope we do at CB..as I think jaidi will not feature so much...but its fine IMO

 

Why do you hope for another CB, if we have one of the best defences in the country?

[Thedelldays]

Why do you hope for another CB, if we have one of the best defences in the country?

I always hope for better players......im sure barcelone always hope for better players..sort of the name of the game isnt it..

should we not sign another defender...im sure we will be fine

[RobM]

I always hope for better players......im sure barcelone always hope for better players..sort of the name of the game isnt it..

should we not sign another defender...im sure we will be fine

 

And that's my point, thank you. I haven't said last season was terrible (as I've pointed out before) I am simply saying we should be trying to improve and our defence is, IMO, the weakest area of the squad.

 

I'm not as confident as you that we will be fine, but time will prove you or I right or wrong on that point. If, after the first 15 or so games, we're looking defensively solid and not conceding goals I will gladly, with a huge smile, be proven wrong. I'm just not confident in that happening without improvements.

[Thedelldays]

And that's my point, thank you. I haven't said last season was terrible (as I've pointed out before) I am simply saying we should be trying to improve and our defence is, IMO, the weakest area of the squad.

 

you said it was a problem last season...when it clearly was far from it

[The Kraken]

And that's my point, thank you. I haven't said last season was terrible (as I've pointed out before) I am simply saying we should be trying to improve and our defence is, IMO, the weakest area of the squad.

 

I'm not as confident as you that we will be fine, but time will prove you or I right or wrong on that point. If, after the first 15 or so games, we're looking defensively solid and not conceding goals I will gladly, with a huge smile, be proven wrong. I'm just not confident in that happening without improvements.

 

Really?

 

Last season this was a problem. Every time the opposition had a set piece you could feel the entire stadium become nervous.

[RobM]

you said it was a problem last season...when it clearly was far from it

 

I said there wasn't enough confidence, I said the back four made people (fans and players) nervous and I've said not conceding goals isn't the only thing to judge a defence on. I haven't even started to mention distribution and attacking from the back (hoof to Lambert has been mentioned a few times...).

[RobM]

Really?

 

Yes, really. Read it in context. You should work for NoTW...

 

I can keep repeating the same thing if you would prefer?

 

I said there wasn't enough confidence, I said the back four made people (fans and players) nervous and I've said not conceding goals isn't the only thing to judge a defence on. I haven't even started to mention distribution and attacking from the back (hoof to Lambert has been mentioned a few times...).

[Thedelldays]

I said there wasn't enough confidence, I said the back four made people (fans and players) nervous and I've said not conceding goals isn't the only thing to judge a defence on. I haven't even started to mention distribution and attacking from the back (hoof to Lambert has been mentioned a few times...).

 

really...?

when I went I never felt more confident about saints winning, let alone not conceeding goals..

[RobM]

really...?

when I went I never felt more confident about saints winning, let alone not conceeding goals..

 

I'm pleased for you. I can hand-on-heart say those sat around me, those who spoke together at half-time at games and those who summarised after attending games weren't all as confident as you. We all see things differently though, so good for you.

[S-Clarke]

I said there wasn't enough confidence, I said the back four made people (fans and players) nervous and I've said not conceding goals isn't the only thing to judge a defence on. I haven't even started to mention distribution and attacking from the back (hoof to Lambert has been mentioned a few times...).

 

I think you're in the minority with that view mate, I always felt pretty sure we'd see a game out. The team never really made me nervous last year (apart from the first few games of the season).

 

I'll tell you a team that should be ****ting themselves this year re: their defense.....P'Boro, no defensive additions, just the same back 4 that conceded 80+ last year!!!!!!!

[RobM]

Anyway, this has turned into the total opposite of what was intended. What are peoples views on our defence for next season?

[RobM]

I think you're in the minority with that view mate, I always felt pretty sure we'd see a game out. The team never really made me nervous last year (apart from the first few games of the season).

 

I'll tell you a team that should be ****ting themselves this year re: their defense.....P'Boro, no defensive additions, just the same back 4 that conceded 80+ last year!!!!!!!

 

Even worse for them, is they have lost CMS. They didn't rely on a solid defence, they relied on simply scoring more than they conceded and their main provider has gone. Kevin Keegan tactics!

[S-Clarke]

Anyway, this has turned into the total opposite of what was intended. What are peoples views on our defence for next season?

 

I'm quite comfortable with how it stands at the moment. In Fonte you have one of the better CB's at this level when he was at Palace, Butterfield was a really solid RB at Palace and Harding has proven himself to be championship quality.

 

The question mark is over Fonte's partner, which I assume will end up being a new addition, but even if it's not in time for the Leeds game, Seaborne has really impressed me in the games I've seen during pre-season. He's always had excellent composure on the ball, but during pre-season he seems to have improved his distribution rather than just aimlessly hoofing. He's probably the quickest CB at the club.

 

IMO We'll end up having Fonte/New Signing with a backup pair of Jaidi and Seaborne (I expect Martin to be loaned at at some point).

[RobM]

Whoever comes in, I would really like to see a consistent back four that isn't changed unless absolutely necessary. I think part of the problem (as I saw it ) in the confidence came down to the regular changes in partnerships, with Fonte being the only regular choice.

[scott_saints]

Why are Butterfield and Harding suddenly going to "get found out" next season? They have been perfectly fine in the Championship before...

[benjii]

RobM and his mates are obviously just a bunch of pussies if they were so worried last season.

Edited 31 July, 2011 by benjii

[SNSUN]

When I've seen them live, Seaborne and Martin have looked assured, it's Jaidi I've always thought of as the liability given his age. He does play well at times Jaidi but perhaps a step up may prove too much for him. People don't rate Seaborne, and he's not ever going to be Premiership quality, but he's still our best option to partner Fonte. Martin will be good, but I'd rather give him time to ease into Championship life.

 

All in all it seems we are a centre back short, a top quality, Premiership quality (or Premiership potential) rock.

 

(I also think we're a decent right back short but the two we have can do a job in the short term.)

[Dalek2003]

The CB has been a problem for a long time. We needed to be decisive early on in the summer and sign a high quality CB. We have not done this and will pay dearly IMO.