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Islamic Law in British 'zones'?


saint_stevo

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I've printed off a load if stickers for my area stating that prostitution and pornography is encouraged. I'll be sticking them on the lamp posts in due course. After my efforts or the give it to Ron campaign, this makes a refreshing change.

 

PM me if you need assistance putting up stickers in our area. :lol:

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What and everyone obeys the laws in Dubai? is the rampant prostitution legal?

 

I really don't think that we should take any lessons from places like Dubai.

 

Yawn.

 

No, that is corruption and a totally different argument. Also I was NOT advocating LESSONS. Simply that setting up Sharia Zones in UK must always stay illegal. In the same way putting signs up around the area where I live saying "Prostitution is legal here" would also not work.

 

Nobody in UK obeys any laws and neither do they here - that is not the point. I cannot declare the "Independent Republic of Saints Fans" here in Dubai and make it Stone People to Death if they support any other team.

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Also I was NOT advocating LESSONS. Simply that setting up Sharia Zones in UK must always stay illegal.

 

So just to be clear, you'd also advocate the banning of Beth Din courts in London - which have been established there for decades.

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Yawn.

 

No, that is corruption and a totally different argument. Also I was NOT advocating LESSONS. Simply that setting up Sharia Zones in UK must always stay illegal. In the same way putting signs up around the area where I live saying "Prostitution is legal here" would also not work.

 

Nobody in UK obeys any laws and neither do they here - that is not the point. I cannot declare the "Independent Republic of Saints Fans" here in Dubai and make it Stone People to Death if they support any other team.

 

You were suggesting that if people didn't obey the law in Dubai they got shipped out. They don't.

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I remember going to loftus road and going into a shop to enquire as to the location of local pubs. The shopkeeper informed me it was a muslim area and there weren't any. He was wrong as we found an Irish pub. Shepherds Bush was traditionally an Irish area before the Muslims turned up.

 

...and you were probably ****ed off about the Irish living there previously as well no doubt?

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You were suggesting that if people didn't obey the law in Dubai they got shipped out. They don't.

 

They do.

 

They also get fined and jailed in the UK

 

Just have to get caught.

 

Asian & Eastern European Females require a Visa to enter Dubai. They require a sponsor for that. Who are the primary sponsors for those visas? Certain Hotels? Who tends to own those hotels? Wealthy locals. One thing that has been learnt recently is that nobody should ever lecture about MORALITY, everywhere is corrupt.

 

Verbal. Sharia courts exist in the UK - they are required to rule on matters, the most common one being Divorce under Islam. Equally here, I can use the sevices of an English Court, Scottish Wedding Service to alter my status or in matters affecting me my family or my business.

 

NOWHERE have I made a point about BANNING the use of multiple legal systems

 

Shame you just jumped in, the issue article & OP is about whether areas should have a law IMPOSED on it that is NOT the complete law of the land.

 

Iran has Sharia Law. Do you support the right for a suburb of an English City to have ONLY Sharia Law overseen by an extreme Iranian cleric cutting off people's hands for shoplifting? Who decides what extent of Sharia law is imposed? Do you intend to support Sunni Interpretation, Wahibi? or Shia?

 

Perhaps you could support having Zones within Zones.

 

I go back to the tenet I started with. If a resident of Dubai established (or even put up posters) declaring that the suburb of Jumeirah was now subject only to English Law, they would be arrested and deported. It is alien to the history and culture of the country, It is disrespectful.

Likewise is it not disrespectful to decide you will ignore the law of the UK and Jail Women for being raped because they were walking through the wrong part of town?

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So again, Phil, are you advocating the banning of Beth Din courts among the orthodox Jewish community? And are you also calling for a fundamental change in English law?

 

Like sharia courts in the UK, once someone accepts the jurisdiction of a Beth Din court, they are bound by English Law. This is because, under English Law, and by centuries of precedent, people may devise their own ways to settle a dispute before a third party.

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So again, Phil, are you advocating the banning of Beth Din courts among the orthodox Jewish community? And are you also calling for a fundamental change in English law?

 

Like sharia courts in the UK, once someone accepts the jurisdiction of a Beth Din court, they are bound by English Law. This is because, under English Law, and by centuries of precedent, people may devise their own ways to settle a dispute before a third party.

 

Above or below the knee? x(

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Beth din and sharia courts here settle civil matters, not criminal ones, among parties who consent to their jurisdiction. But don't let that get in the way of your neatly formed prejudice.

 

Blow it out of your arse, Verbal. Nowhere did i refer to any faith system, more the old "east end" version of informal dispute resolution, taking your comment about it being commonplace and all that. Don't let that stop you going off on one again though and reading a load of old ****** into nothing. :rolleyes:

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Blow it out of your arse, Verbal. Nowhere did i refer to any faith system, more the old "east end" version of informal dispute resolution, taking your comment about it being commonplace and all that. Don't let that stop you going off on one again though and reading a load of old ****** into nothing. :rolleyes:

 

Hmm. Incoherence AND anger management issues. Never mind - I can adjudicate this one for you.

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well happy with this...I can move to a black flag area and have many wives...then honour kill them when I get bored..

 

 

sweet

 

Bit of a constant theme with you, isn't it - daydreaming about all the violence you can wreak on women.

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No, you got yourself. Your attitudes to women mark you out as a disgrace. If you want to contribute sensibly here, or have the ability to do so, please go ahead.

 

hahahaha.....the oracle has spoken...is this like judging someone like you did with the avatar that time...

you are great

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hahahaha.....the oracle has spoken...is this like judging someone like you did with the avatar that time...

you are great

 

So THAT's your sensible contribution. Well done. It's not as good as I expected, even by the low standards you've set for yourself.

 

Go away now and imagine all the violence you can dream up on your female 'friends'.

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lol..what a complete ****

 

You haven't really got the hang of posting on topic have you. Try again. Go on - you can do it. What do you think of the fact that English law enshrines the right of people to submit civil cases to sharia courts?

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I wonder if it was the same people that Verbal talked about trying to indoctrinate his son whilst at University.

 

Anjem Choudary (the islamist fanatic that UAF invited to speak in Luton) went to Southampton University. Was it him who tried indoctrinating your son by any chance?

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I bloody hate the daily mail. They dig up some nutter with some stickers in another attempt to turn the general public against the Muslim population.

 

**** the press.

 

Well they have to keep their readership happy with simple hate stories of every group or they would go read the express instead.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

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So THAT's your sensible contribution. Well done. It's not as good as I expected, even by the low standards you've set for yourself.

 

Go away now and imagine all the violence you can dream up on your female 'friends'.

 

Islam rule encourages the second class treatment of women, Sharia would probably hear Delldays dubious dispute, and order the woman to be stoned to death inshallah as she would be some considered 'a whore'.

 

Islam/Sharia stands idly by as men rape women, then the women is penalised if she cannot find sufficient male witnesses... her voice alone has no meaning.

 

Do we really want dirty, barbaric, desperate, violent Sharia laws pushed into our great country? No, absolutely not! Will we get it? Yes IMO, over the next decade or so, as Islam conquers Europe not by terror and extremism, but by sheer mother ****ing numbers!

 

I will be long gone by then, to a nice, unspoilt westernised land (if they havnt ruined them all by then!)...

 

You daft crusaders

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Islam rule encourages the second class treatment of women, Sharia would probably hear Delldays dubious dispute, and order the woman to be stoned to death inshallah as she would be some considered 'a whore'.

 

Islam/Sharia stands idly by as men rape women, then the women is penalised if she cannot find sufficient male witnesses... her voice alone has no meaning.

 

Do we really want dirty, barbaric, desperate, violent Sharia laws pushed into our great country? No, absolutely not! Will we get it? Yes IMO, over the next decade or so, as Islam conquers Europe not by terror and extremism, but by sheer mother ****ing numbers!

 

I will be long gone by then, to a nice, unspoilt westernised land (if they havnt ruined them all by then!)...

 

You daft crusaders

 

Personally, I find that a somewhat unlikely scenario.

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Now, back to where we left off...

 

Phil? Any thoughts on that ticklish problem with English law?

 

Actually, it's been a long time since I was in the Uk and have missed some of the recent changes in society, but I was sure that Spec Savers still existed. perhaps you could voyage there, get some help, read the OP about ZONES, and then see that I actually posted that I support the FREEDOM to use any relevant applicable law, I even quoted the example of Sharia Divorces.

 

And before you ask, it was only YOU who is advocating banning anything that currently exists and is legal.

 

So Mr perfect, do you believe that the exclusive Sharia Law Zones you are so clearly supportive of should be no-go areas for the British Police?

 

Clearly as UK law is not accepted there, do you believe that the UK should now recruit Mutawa? or should your taxes be increased in order to allow the existing UK Police to operate two strictly different legal systems?

 

Would the UK Sharia Zones permit worship at a Christian Church within it's boundaries? Or a Jewish Synagoue? Many Muslim Countries have both

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Islam rule encourages the second class treatment of women, Sharia would probably hear Delldays dubious dispute, and order the woman to be stoned to death inshallah as she would be some considered 'a whore'.

 

Islam/Sharia stands idly by as men rape women, then the women is penalised if she cannot find sufficient male witnesses... her voice alone has no meaning.

 

Do we really want dirty, barbaric, desperate, violent Sharia laws pushed into our great country? No, absolutely not! Will we get it? Yes IMO, over the next decade or so, as Islam conquers Europe not by terror and extremism, but by sheer mother ****ing numbers!

 

I will be long gone by then, to a nice, unspoilt westernised land (if they havnt ruined them all by then!)...

 

You daft crusaders

 

I think you should try and untangle your rage from your argument a little. Railing against straw men is pretty pointless - literally. A waste of your time writing it and ours having to wade through it.

 

Of course women are second-class citizens in most if not all nominally Muslim countries. They're hardly first-class here, of course - but at least quite a bit better off. A good friend of mine had the temerity and extraordinary courage to direct a performance of The Va gin a Monologues in Islamabad. She was under siege for some time afterwards. she is quite clear and outspoken in saying that the worst thing that happened to her was to born a woman in Pakistan.

 

Unfortunately, in your haste or ignorance, you slide into issues of criminal law, which sharia courts in the UK have no jurisdiction over. If a woman is raped in the UK, her chance of getting justice are hardly great - in fact, they're pretty miniscule. But at least there is and can be no attempt to impose other than UK criminal law to her case.

 

So given that sharia laws, like Beth Din courts among orthodox Jews in the UK, do NOT adjudicate on these issues but merely on civil disputes IF both parties accede to it, what exactly justifies your 'dirty.barbaric, violent' apoplexy? I detect the old racist line, also, in your 'we're all going to be overrun' by brown people with Islam-itis - against any evidence that this is even remotely true.

 

As for you being long gone - goodbye!

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Actually, it's been a long time since I was in the Uk and have missed some of the recent changes in society, but I was sure that Spec Savers still existed. perhaps you could voyage there, get some help, read the OP about ZONES, and then see that I actually posted that I support the FREEDOM to use any relevant applicable law, I even quoted the example of Sharia Divorces.

 

And before you ask, it was only YOU who is advocating banning anything that currently exists and is legal.

 

So Mr perfect, do you believe that the exclusive Sharia Law Zones you are so clearly supportive of should be no-go areas for the British Police?

 

Clearly as UK law is not accepted there, do you believe that the UK should now recruit Mutawa? or should your taxes be increased in order to allow the existing UK Police to operate two strictly different legal systems?

 

Would the UK Sharia Zones permit worship at a Christian Church within it's boundaries? Or a Jewish Synagoue? Many Muslim Countries have both

 

Heavens above Phil, what an ignorant mess you've got yourself into - and you're supposed to be a sympatico ex-pat, making a living off these ignorant, malignant fools.

 

Firstly, you're confusing a useless publicity stunt by Choudhary with reality. Buying into his hopeless little wind up does not reflect well on you. No one but Choudhary has talked about 'zones' - and in any case they would have absolutely no validity in law. Not that any sensible person would want such a bizarre thing.

 

In what sense exactly is 'UK law not accepted' where sharia courts are agreed upon and used? Precisely the OPPOSITE is true. English law enshrines the rights of people to resort to third parties provided they both agree to it, and to be bound by the outcomes. They can then, of course, appeal, and have their appeal heard in any UK court.

 

You're also way off base with your guff about the police. The police don't get involved. Once again, sharia courts in this country only have jurisdiction over people who agree that it does - and then only in civil cases. Nor is this remotely about 'two legal systems'. UK law is still the ultimate arbiter - and in fact, as I've said before, it's ancient UK law which permits these kinds of arrangements, just as they have with Beth Din (No answer from you on that one - odd).

 

You must have an interesting life as an ex-pat living among and profiting from all those nasty, ugly Arabs.

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If Verbal is correct, and shariah law is only applied here for civil cases, then there is no jurisdiction, and therefore no legal means of enforcement.

 

If someone walks through one of these zones having a smoke, what can they actually do? It's perfectly legal.

 

It's just a big wind-up, orchestrated by people who have a history of being provocative, amplified by a newspaper that makes its money from peddling fear.

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If Verbal is correct, and shariah law is only applied here for civil cases, then there is no jurisdiction, and therefore no legal means of enforcement.

 

If someone walks through one of these zones having a smoke, what can they actually do? It's perfectly legal.

 

It's just a big wind-up, orchestrated by people who have a history of being provocative, amplified by a newspaper that makes its money from peddling fear.

 

Bingo, pap.

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Aaaargh.

 

Post hell. Soz.

 

Dont apologise, you were right. All this b*llocks about "sharia zones" is just that, none of it is legally enforceable, it cant be anything other than an informal agreement between two parties willing to participate in it.

 

That said, I used to live next door to a guy who had the temerity to marry an indian girl against the wishes of her family. The couple had moved down here from brum to escape the attentions of her brothers, who had wanted her to marry her cousin or something, and were threatening to kill her husband. These tw*ts tracked her down to netley and tried to kick my door in at 3am (this was on ingleside, where the house numbering is perhaps not as clear as it might be.....) I called the police, who came out and took statements, but shortly after that the couple moved away again. Imho, these crimes ought to be treated a damn sight more seriously by our police than they currently seem to be.

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It is not a one man publicity stunt, nor is it a new Mail only issue.

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436203-sharia-law-row-archbishop-is-in-shock-as-he-faces-demands-to-quit-and-criticism-from-lord-carey.do

 

Archbishop of Canterbury faced calls to resign in 2008

 

http://www.spittoon.org/archives/6734

http://www.wluml.org/node/6422

 

2010 Articles

 

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/riteman/tag/creeping-acceptance-sharia-law-of/

 

Telegraph 2011 before the Mail article

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/jul/05/sharia-law-religious-courts

 

The Guardian

 

There is an ongoing campaign driving this, these are just a few seconds worth of googling. One nutter put his name to a poster campaign, but the point is that Zones or let's face it Inner City Areas have people actively campaigning.

 

These guys put it much more eloquently than I could

 

http://neilandcaz.blogspot.com/2011/07/sharia-zones-in-britain.html

 

This is not a new debate

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Verbal, remember the saying "From little acorns mighty oaks do grow" ?

The UK is far far too tolerant of these idiots whom if left alone ( appeasement )

will gradually get more and more supporters. They will not be thinking a few months

or even a few years ahead they will be planning long term. Thank God I won't be

around in 40 - 50 years to see the state of the UK then.

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Verbal, remember the saying "From little acorns mighty oaks do grow" ?

The UK is far far too tolerant of these idiots whom if left alone ( appeasement )

will gradually get more and more supporters. They will not be thinking a few months

or even a few years ahead they will be planning long term. Thank God I won't be

around in 40 - 50 years to see the state of the UK then.

 

You're wrong if you think that I would stand for or in any way defend fundamentalist crap from Islamists. I've seen the consequences of it too graphically, and personally speaking, I loathe them. The word 'intolerance' barely begins to describe their brutal suppression of the human spirit.

 

And yet they are also spectacular hypocrites. There's an interesting article in the New Yorker this week. Link here:

 

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle

 

It's an insider's account of the raid that killed bin Laden. What caught my eye was an aside by one of the CIA operatives examining the hard drives taken from OBL's house. It was full of pornography - something, he said, they commonly found on computers taken from Islamist hardliners.

 

So, no - I'm not defending those lunatics, least of all the deliberately offensive Chaudhray. His objective is to so incense pub lic opinion that it reacts violently against ordinary Muslims, as the EDL already do. This, in turn (his theory goes), will force Muslims to fight back - and there starts his stupid little revolution.

 

What I'm saying is that Chaudhray knows how to play this game. Was his little ginger friend putting up stickers filmed covertly by the Mail? No - it was a set-piece publicity stunt. The stickers mean nothing and are not visible to any but the camera. This is how it works - and so many fall for it. You can put the miserable little f u c k's nose out of joint by NOT reacting to his childish antics.

 

The issue of sharia courts, such as it is, really is different. But it is no different to that to do with Beth Din courts, used by orthodox Jews in London. It's actually an example of one of the unusually good qualities of English law - that it supports conflict resolution in civil matters by whatever means two parties may accept, and yet stands ready in the background should the whole thing go pear-shaped. In no case that I'm aware of has a Beth Din court or a sharia court EVER tried to claim jurisdiction in a criminal case, and so have no contact with the police - and certainly do not involve themselves in criminal investigations.

 

It's worth emphasising that anyone having a problem with sharia courts is not bound by them - and the MAJORITY of Muslims have absolutely nothing to do with them. There is this dumbass equation often made (see Phil's posted links above) between sharia courts and the birth rate in the Muslim population. It's nonsense.

Edited by Verbal
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If Verbal is correct, and shariah law is only applied here for civil cases, then there is no jurisdiction, and therefore no legal means of enforcement.

 

If someone walks through one of these zones having a smoke, what can they actually do? It's perfectly legal.

 

It's just a big wind-up, orchestrated by people who have a history of being provocative, amplified by a newspaper that makes its money from peddling fear.

 

Exactly. I don't think the people behind all this really believe they will get these zones, they just know it'll get them in the papers.

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These guys put it much more eloquently than I could

 

http://neilandcaz.blogspot.com/2011/07/sharia-zones-in-britain.html

 

This is not a new debate

 

I guess that makes sense to you. To me it reads like yet another couple of barely sober ex-pats having a repulsive rant. You still don't get it, do you? Sharia law in a Wahhabi country especially is going to encompass criminal and civil law. That's because, in the rather ugly place from which you profit, it is a pretty fundamentalist Muslim country, with Sharia written into the penal code. Sharia courts in the UK, like Beth Din courts (you STILL haven't addressed this point), operate in the space provided by English law for consensual settlement of civil disputes - NOT criminal cases.

 

If you're so convinced that I'm wrong about this, find one case where a sharia court in the UK has encroached from civil to the criminal. Just one.

 

Besides all this, most Muslims here, as evidenced by the small number of cases these courts hear, want nothing to do with them thank you very much.

 

You're just participating in another apoplectic yell at British Muslims - all part, I'd suggest, of your classic ex-pat resentment at your home country and all its perceived ills. That is, I'm sorry to say, to the extent that you make any sense at all.

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Islam rule encourages the second class treatment of women, Sharia would probably hear Delldays dubious dispute, and order the woman to be stoned to death inshallah as she would be some considered 'a whore'.

 

Islam/Sharia stands idly by as men rape women, then the women is penalised if she cannot find sufficient male witnesses... her voice alone has no meaning.

 

Do we really want dirty, barbaric, desperate, violent Sharia laws pushed into our great country? No, absolutely not! Will we get it? Yes IMO, over the next decade or so, as Islam conquers Europe not by terror and extremism, but by sheer mother ****ing numbers!

 

I will be long gone by then, to a nice, unspoilt westernised land (if they havnt ruined them all by then!)...

 

You daft crusaders

 

and it's all so much better in the UK where (of the reported rapes) the rape conviction rate is 6%, and they estimate 95% of rapes aren't even reported

 

Christ almighty. . .

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