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How to buy a football club


Edmonton Saint

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I thought the program was quite interesting actually

 

As already mentioned, I'd be quite worried if I was a Leicester supporter.

These owners have 1 goal only, and that's to get to the PL ASAP, followed by selling the club on

 

I wonder how much money has been put into Leicester to cover all these signings and wages?

If they don't go up, I wouldn't be surprised if they were in administration within 18 months

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so after all that, i have learnt that we are owned by a company called DMWSL613 LTD which is a company owned by Markus Liebherr who is now dead. Therfore the company is now owned by his estate.

 

The question is who are the beneficiaries of his estate? is it just one person or is it a number of people in his family? if its more than one how do they intend share the company /estate up between the beneficiaries?

e

it seems as though despite NC stating that the family are still 100% behind the club there are still many complexities that we have no answers too.

 

so i think its a fairly valid question of who actually owns the club to be honest.

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To an outsider the inference was that we were dodgedly owned by a dead person! ie. as a club we were trying to hide something. ****** to this type of journalism. I would be more worried that clubs such as the mighty manure are allowed to opperate many millions in debt (servicable or not) And as for cud chewing manager of said club, do you think he would really come out and admit any real friendship with mister sim, perhaps we should just believe him as he is a sir. Nice that they joked that once cud chewer junior was sacked, senior withdrew his players the very same afternoon. Mr Fergie a man with too much power me thinks.

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All it would take is one Channel Four researcher to look at this...

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/companydetails/0,,10280,00.html

 

Or companies house, in order to see that what the program said tonight was nonsense.

 

The programme was factually correct. This DMWSL613 ltd owns Southampton Football Club Ltd which owned the club.

 

SFC ltd was incorporated in 1897 and has been the operating company of the club for the past 114 years. In the Lowe era SFC ltd was owned by Southampton Leisure Holdings plc.

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The programme was factually correct. This DMWSL613 ltd owns Southampton Football Club Ltd which owned the club.

 

SFC ltd was incorporated in 1897 and has been the operating company of the club for the past 114 years. In the Lowe era SFC ltd was owned by Southampton Leisure Holdings plc.

 

Correct and it was Southampton Leisure Holdings that went into administration and not SFC LTD which is why we should never have been given the points deduction. The only reason we werent allowed to appeal was because the Football League knew that they would lose in court.

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The programme was factually correct. This DMWSL613 ltd owns Southampton Football Club Ltd which owned the club.

 

SFC ltd was incorporated in 1897 and has been the operating company of the club for the past 114 years. In the Lowe era SFC ltd was owned by Southampton Leisure Holdings plc.

 

I was referring to them saying that the owner was dead and implying there might be something shady going on. Which is wrong, the former owner is dead, the "estate of Markus Liebherr" and whoever that involves (wife, daughter etc or an inanimate entity like a trust-fund) is not dead.

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The Saints comments were ridiculous - implying that there was something dodgy going on when in fact, the tiniest bit of research would have shown there was nothing.

Makes you question much of the documentary really, if that was the best example of something 'dodgy' going on in the Football Club. (as does the bizarre Barnsley Town comment)

 

Having said that, the whole sorry gang, including Robson, have come out of that really badly and there isn't much doubt that they are all as slippery as they come. No doubt there are plenty of others who are trying to get in and out at English clubs in the same way, and probably some who have, as the process seemed straightforward enough and the FL chairman admitted that there was probably little they could do to prevent it.

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I have sent the following to the Channel 4 link supplied...I would urge that more of us do similar. It wasn't the fact that we're owned by a company with an offshore registration that I found abhorrent - more the way it was portrayed that a man who has died was being used as some kind of front.

 

I really hope Cortese goes for them in a big way - I'd like to see a broadcast apology!

 

 

'I found the use of the death of Markus Liebherr to illustrate a cheap point re the ownership of Southampton Football Club amongst the others mentioned distasteful in the extreme. Had your researcher done what his job description implies he would have found that the club owners are listed as 'The estate of Markus Liebherr deceased'. His untimely and unexpected death was made to look as though it was part of a plot in line with the general theme of the programme to have foreign consortiums running and owning football clubs and presenting this in a bad light. In reality his vision and business plan are being carried through with the support of his family and his personal appointee - Nicola Cortese - on a five year plan to get to the Premier League.I think the Liebherr family and Southampton Football Club are owed an apology for this poorly researched and sensationalised linking and look forward to seeing this as a matter of urgency.'

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I have sent the following to the Channel 4 link supplied...I would urge that more of us do similar. It wasn't the fact that we're owned by a company with an offshore registration that I found abhorrent - more the way it was portrayed that a man who has died was being used as some kind of front.

 

I really hope Cortese goes for them in a big way - I'd like to see a broadcast apology!

 

 

'I found the use of the death of Markus Liebherr to illustrate a cheap point re the ownership of Southampton Football Club amongst the others mentioned distasteful in the extreme. Had your researcher done what his job description implies he would have found that the club owners are listed as 'The estate of Markus Liebherr deceased'. His untimely and unexpected death was made to look as though it was part of a plot in line with the general theme of the programme to have foreign consortiums running and owning football clubs and presenting this in a bad light. In reality his vision and business plan are being carried through with the support of his family and his personal appointee - Nicola Cortese - on a five year plan to get to the Premier League.I think the Liebherr family and Southampton Football Club are owed an apology for this poorly researched and sensationalised linking and look forward to seeing this as a matter of urgency.'

 

Did the programme say anything which was factually incorrect or were they making a point how foreigners are buying into English Clubs

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Being unable to watch C4 down here I can only accept everyone's interpretation that the reporter was a *^!t.

 

There is one technical point that does exist however, for which outsiders could argue gives them cause for valid criticism.

 

As far as I can tell, there is no actual "Up to date" "Corporate Legal" statement of ownership at this time on record.

 

Namely we are all ASSUMING (in the lack of any information to the contrary) that the one share of DMWSL613 ltd is owned by "The Estate of Marcus Liebherr". It is what we have understand to be the case based upon what we have been told, but legally, nobody seems to have found any legal statement saying that...

 

Nobody actually knows (ie has linked to a legal Document) whether the Estate is still in Probate or not (we seem a little short of experts in Swiss Law)

Nobody actually knows (ie has linked to a legal Document) who the beneficiaries are

Nobody actually knows (ie has linked to a legal Document) whether the benficiaries have equal shares in the Estate

 

(We can ASSUME, but are there any LEGAL records filed?)

 

There is then one other open question at the moment

 

Whoever our "Current" beneficial owner is under UK Corporate Law - Have they undergone the FAPP test?

 

None of these are in anyway actually linked to the C4 programme that I can see, but are questions that have been posed on here in recent debates about the way forward, ambition, transfer policy and funding. (for example opinions about Trust Funds etc have been put on this thread)

 

We have statements from NC on record and I have no issue with those.

 

Technically, and legally, there are "gaps" in the Information filed in the public domain. They could be due to differences in Swiss & UK Law BUt the fact is they left a "technical weakness" that C4 could then exploit (and then Sensationalise) for the benefit of their programme. (Does NOT stop the reporter being a *&$t)

 

While I am looking forward to seeing NC wade into attack C4's interpretation and delivery style in last nights' progamme, he WILL have to actually have specific facts to make public to show C4 they were wrong.

 

And that gives C4 an excuse unfortunately, so it just makes it a but more difficult to go on the witch-hunt.

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I don't think the programme said anything incorrect, just that we are listed as owned by dead man. The implication was that we therefore do not know who the owner was, not that something fishy going on.

Whilst what was said was factually correct, the inference in the way that the point was put across certainly made it sound dodgy.

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Did the programme say anything which was factually incorrect or were they making a point how foreigners are buying into English Clubs

 

As far as factually incorrect I guess time will tell re the other clubs and personnel involved.

 

The point about us was not incorrect in itself. We are owned by a foreign owned and registered company but my objection was that they sensationalised the fact that we were owned by Markus Liebherr...dramatic pause...and Herr Liebherr died a year ago!!

 

I detest the fact that we were being lumped in with the sleazy sort of takeover that was being portrayed...the sort that the odious and odoursome end of the M27 have had several of. I still feel tainted by the fact that we ever let that sleazeball Redcrap through the door so to have poorly researched, innacurate cheap points being made at the expense of a genuine businessman who saw potential...and yes profit too in investing in our club really rankles!

Edited by dronskisaint
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Dronski, I'll defend the programme still because the whole piece at that stage was about how easy it was to find out who owns the club. The point was that as Liebherr is gone, yet still registered as the owner of the holding company we cannot know who the owner is. Now obviously there is likely a good reason for absence of a new name, bur if you can update dispatches on the identity of the clubs current owner then I'm sure they will be pleased to hear.

Edited by yorkiesaint
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Being unable to watch C4 down here I can only accept everyone's interpretation that the reporter was a *^!t.

 

There is one technical point that does exist however, for which outsiders could argue gives them cause for valid criticism.

 

As far as I can tell, there is no actual "Up to date" "Corporate Legal" statement of ownership at this time on record.

 

Namely we are all ASSUMING (in the lack of any information to the contrary) that the one share of DMWSL613 ltd is owned by "The Estate of Marcus Liebherr". It is what we have understand to be the case based upon what we have been told, but legally, nobody seems to have found any legal statement saying that...

 

Nobody actually knows (ie has linked to a legal Document) whether the Estate is still in Probate or not (we seem a little short of experts in Swiss Law)

Nobody actually knows (ie has linked to a legal Document) who the beneficiaries are

Nobody actually knows (ie has linked to a legal Document) whether the benficiaries have equal shares in the Estate

 

(We can ASSUME, but are there any LEGAL records filed?)

 

There is then one other open question at the moment

 

Whoever our "Current" beneficial owner is under UK Corporate Law - Have they undergone the FAPP test?

 

None of these are in anyway actually linked to the C4 programme that I can see, but are questions that have been posed on here in recent debates about the way forward, ambition, transfer policy and funding. (for example opinions about Trust Funds etc have been put on this thread)

 

We have statements from NC on record and I have no issue with those.

 

Technically, and legally, there are "gaps" in the Information filed in the public domain. They could be due to differences in Swiss & UK Law BUt the fact is they left a "technical weakness" that C4 could then exploit (and then Sensationalise) for the benefit of their programme. (Does NOT stop the reporter being a *&$t)

 

While I am looking forward to seeing NC wade into attack C4's interpretation and delivery style in last nights' progamme, he WILL have to actually have specific facts to make public to show C4 they were wrong.

 

And that gives C4 an excuse unfortunately, so it just makes it a but more difficult to go on the witch-hunt.

 

As Phil says we dont know the people who actually own the club and whether they are fit and proper persons.

 

I am certain that their is no problem with our ownership but other clubs which maybe bought in a similar manner may not be.

 

Not sure how much of the programme was taken up with SFC

 

but we are not mentioned in this

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2016249/Bryan-Robson-Manchester-United-TV-sting.html

 

or this

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/ferguson-dismisses-club-takeover-tv-claims-2316052.html

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Dronski, I'll defend the programme still because the whole piece at that stage was about how easy it was to find out who owns the club. The point was that as Liebherr is gone, yet still registered as the owner of the holding company we cannot know who the owner is. Now obviously there is likely a good reason for absence of a new name, bur if you can update dispatches on the identity of the clubs current owner then I'm sure they will be pleased to hear.

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/page/compa...,10280,00.html

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I detest the fact that we were being lumped in with the sleazy sort of takeover that was being portrayed...the sort that the odious and odoursome end of the M27 have had several of. I still feel tainted by the fact that we ever let that sleazeball Redcrap through the door so to have poorly researched, innacurate cheap points being made at the expense of a genuine businessman who saw potential...and yes profit too in investing in our club really rankles!

 

I agree with you that this would be highly undesirable, but I hold the view that we missed our chance there with the pinnacle bid.

 

What saints fans should be thinking about from the programme was that the scenario was very familiar. The plan was to buy a championship or big league 1 club. It would cost £15 million. Next they needed a 5 year plan to get to the premier league. This would require a further investment of £15 million. They would need PR, some owner figurehead to wave at the fans and take the credit. Once in the premier league they sell for their profit. Most people on here won't wake up and smell the coffee until saints are owned by some Asian gamblers, fake sheiks, soviet organised crime merchant or or tandoori chicken farmers.

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As Phil says we dont know the people who actually own the club and whether they are fit and proper persons.

 

I am certain that their is no problem with our ownership but other clubs which maybe bought in a similar manner may not be.

 

Not sure how much of the programme was taken up with SFC

 

but we are not mentioned in this

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2016249/Bryan-Robson-Manchester-United-TV-sting.html

 

or this

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/ferguson-dismisses-club-takeover-tv-claims-2316052.html

 

Will you calm down please!

 

As of 03/07/2011 the one and only share holder of the holding company which owns Southampton Football Club Ltd which in turn owns the club is listed at companies house as Markus Liebherr. When my gran died it took over a year to process her will and she only had the house she lived in. ML's affairs will have been much more complicated. The club has stated unequivocally that the ownership has passed to 'The Estate of ML'. This means that the executor of the will (or what ever the legal term is in Switzerland) will act according to ML's wishes.

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Not sure how much of the programme was taken up with SFC

 

 

Almost none of it from what I saw.

 

"...or perhaps Southampton... registered owners DWM etc Ltd (eyebrows raise at 'funny company name'), which turns out to be owned by a Swiss German called Marcus Leibherr... Herr Liebherr died nearly a year ago."

 

 

We were only mentioned again by implication "... xx out of xxx clubs have owners who are unknown, untraceable, or dead..."

 

Southampton was just an aside - I forget how many of the other 91 clubs they said had untraceable owners, but it was a fair number - they just picked two from the championship. I guess ours was a 'good' one because all/any of the others would just have been repetition. It's not nice, I guess, but they were trying to tell a story.

 

Quotes aren't verbatim, but illustrative (IMO).

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I doubt if any of us would be so irate if it hadn't have been for the fact that they completely ignored the shocking goings on down the road and concentrated on a club bought by one man, in cash, who then tragically died and left the club in the hands of the estate...

Now that's shocking journalism if you concentrate more on Saints than Pompey when it comes to dodgy owners....

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I agree with you that this would be highly undesirable, but I hold the view that we missed our chance there with the pinnacle bid.

 

What saints fans should be thinking about from the programme was that the scenario was very familiar. The plan was to buy a championship or big league 1 club. It would cost £15 million. Next they needed a 5 year plan to get to the premier league. This would require a further investment of £15 million. They would need PR, some owner figurehead to wave at the fans and take the credit. Once in the premier league they sell for their profit. Most people on here won't wake up and smell the coffee until saints are owned by some Asian gamblers, fake sheiks, soviet organised crime merchant or or tandoori chicken farmers.

 

I certainly agree that we got lucky - there but for fortune we could have been similarly tarnished etc.

 

It is though the very fact that buying a club (and we were an exceptionally good investment at the price) is a very viable proposition doing it the way that our business plan sets out. Part of my point is that what we are attempting to do legitimately is being lumped alongside the dodgy profiteering, asset stripping and multiple ownership that was the subject matter of the programme. I would like that made clear by the programme makers that our way is absolutely legitimate and, if you like, has had it's legitimacy compromised by their implication.

 

Link was ostensibly to our ownership section on the OS - not sure why it's not working...it did earlier?!

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I doubt if any of us would be so irate if it hadn't have been for the fact that they completely ignored the shocking goings on down the road and concentrated on a club bought by one man, in cash, who then tragically died and left the club in the hands of the estate...

Now that's shocking journalism if you concentrate more on Saints than Pompey when it comes to dodgy owners....

You are absolutely right. Skirting around the Skate Skandal. In fact showing the poor P*mpey fans chanting "Where has our money gone" on at least two occaissions without any reports on what happened there was disgraceful.

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calm down everyone....they spent about 4 seconds talking about us..and using it as an example of odd foreign ownership...

 

 

lets not get precious

 

What is "odd" about our ownership?

Did they mention Gaydamak, Chainrai and the Arab who never existed?

No?

That's why people are peed off...

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What is "odd" about our ownership?

Did they mention Gaydamak, Chainrai and the Arab who never existed?

No?

That's why people are peed off...

to anyone that is not a saints fans...it is odd in that its foreign and the owner died......

who EXACTLY owns us then...who controls the purse strings...who is in charge of NC...?

not that I care

 

 

as for pompey..this was a programme about how to buy a football club..not go over something that has been done to death AKA pompey

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Almost none of it from what I saw.

 

"...or perhaps Southampton... registered owners DWM etc Ltd (eyebrows raise at 'funny company name'), which turns out to be owned by a Swiss German called Marcus Leibherr... Herr Liebherr died nearly a year ago."

 

 

We were only mentioned again by implication "... xx out of xxx clubs have owners who are unknown, untraceable, or dead..."

 

Southampton was just an aside - I forget how many of the other 91 clubs they said had untraceable owners, but it was a fair number - they just picked two from the championship. I guess ours was a 'good' one because all/any of the others would just have been repetition. It's not nice, I guess, but they were trying to tell a story.

 

Quotes aren't verbatim, but illustrative (IMO).

 

C4 may well be right to say that the current owner(s) are not traceable through legal documents. Of course, they could have asked the club, and would surely have been told what we've been told, and they could have made of that what they would.

 

The simple factual error is in the highlighted bit: using the phrase 'turned out to be' suggests ML was all but completely unknown, and/or was hiding behind a shell company. I doubt it's so much dishonest as ignorant of Saints' recent history - but it's a serious distortion.

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to anyone that is not a saints fans...it is odd in that its foreign and the owner died......

who EXACTLY owns us then...who controls the purse strings...who is in charge of NC...?

not that I care

 

 

as for pompey..this was a programme about how to buy a football club..not go over something that has been done to death AKA pompey

 

but there is no better example of "how to buy a football club" through a dodgy investment company to hide ownership than the skates who have perfected the art of moving dirty money around and not paying taxes only to pass the problem on to another dodgy owner

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but there is no better example of "how to buy a football club" through a dodgy investment company to hide ownership than the skates who have perfected the art of moving dirty money around and not paying taxes only to pass the problem on to another dodgy owner

 

yes but it was about bryan robson and some bloke called sim and highlighted the newish influence from thailand and investigating robsons compay.......was that clear..?

 

just the programme was called "how to buy a football club"

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yes but it was about bryan robson and some bloke called sim and highlighted the newish influence from thailand and investigating robsons compay.......was that clear..?

 

just the programme was called "how to buy a football club"

 

The programme it's self was pretty poor and a feeble attempt at trying to make any sort of point. I think what's got to people is the way we were mentioned, the presenter portrayed it as we were set-up and purchased using the name of someone who died.

 

We all know that wasn't the case, so to use us as an example showed a really poor use of research. Lazy if you ask me.

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The programme it's self was pretty poor and a feeble attempt at trying to make any sort of point. I think what's got to people is the way we were mentioned, the presenter portrayed it as we were set-up and purchased using the name of someone who died.

 

We all know that wasn't the case, so to use us as an example showed a really poor use of research. Lazy if you ask me.

 

i agree with that..but we were talked about for no more than 4 seconds.....that was about it

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to anyone that is not a saints fans...it is odd in that its foreign and the owner died......

who EXACTLY owns us then...who controls the purse strings...who is in charge of NC...?

not that I care

 

 

as for pompey..this was a programme about how to buy a football club..not go over something that has been done to death AKA pompey

 

But you're missing the point. Their "business plan" was to buy cheap, get in loanees and bosmans and then scarper...

Which is exactly what happened at Pompey and would have underlined their programme perfectly but sloppy journalism meant they missed that completely.

How to buy a football club... so what did Saints have to do with it then? We were bought legitimately so why even mention Saints??

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I think we're getting too precious here

 

They implied we've been owned by a dead man for over a year, and the program was about the lack of transparency in football with regards to ownership

 

It was a fair question to ask about Saints, because many posters have been asking the same question for months on this site....

Who owns us exactly?

Where is the money coming from, if at all?

 

I don't think C4 done anything wrong at all

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But you're missing the point. Their "business plan" was to buy cheap, get in loanees and bosmans and then scarper...

Which is exactly what happened at Pompey and would have underlined their programme perfectly but sloppy journalism meant they missed that completely.

How to buy a football club... so what did Saints have to do with it then? We were bought legitimately so why even mention Saints??

 

why are you going on about pompey..

it was clear that the programme called "how to buy a football club" was all about bryan robson and thailand...

 

maybe they should have called it.."how to buy a football club from captain marvel"

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I certainly agree that we got lucky - there but for fortune we could have been similarly tarnished etc.

 

It is though the very fact that buying a club (and we were an exceptionally good investment at the price) is a very viable proposition doing it the way that our business plan sets out. Part of my point is that what we are attempting to do legitimately is being lumped alongside the dodgy profiteering, asset stripping and multiple ownership that was the subject matter of the programme. I would like that made clear by the programme makers that our way is absolutely legitimate and, if you like, has had it's legitimacy compromised by their implication.

 

Link was ostensibly to our ownership section on the OS - not sure why it's not working...it did earlier?!

 

The ownership page has been taken down this morning.

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I have sent the following to the Channel 4 link supplied...I would urge that more of us do similar. It wasn't the fact that we're owned by a company with an offshore registration that I found abhorrent - more the way it was portrayed that a man who has died was being used as some kind of front.

 

I really hope Cortese goes for them in a big way - I'd like to see a broadcast apology!

 

 

'I found the use of the death of Markus Liebherr to illustrate a cheap point re the ownership of Southampton Football Club amongst the others mentioned distasteful in the extreme. Had your researcher done what his job description implies he would have found that the club owners are listed as 'The estate of Markus Liebherr deceased'. His untimely and unexpected death was made to look as though it was part of a plot in line with the general theme of the programme to have foreign consortiums running and owning football clubs and presenting this in a bad light. In reality his vision and business plan are being carried through with the support of his family and his personal appointee - Nicola Cortese - on a five year plan to get to the Premier League.I think the Liebherr family and Southampton Football Club are owed an apology for this poorly researched and sensationalised linking and look forward to seeing this as a matter of urgency.'

 

Sorry to reply to my own posting but below is the, fairly stock, response.

 

Thank you for contacting Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries regarding DISPATCHES: How To Buy A Football Club.

 

We are sorry to hear that you found this documentary distasteful and feel it used the death of Markus Liebherr to illustrate a point about the ownership of Southhampton Football Club. Please be assured your complaint has been logged and noted for the information of those responsible for our programming.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us. We appreciate all feedback from our viewers; complimentary or otherwise.

 

Regards,

 

Angie Young

Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries

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Sorry to reply to my own posting but below is the, fairly stock, response.

 

Thank you for contacting Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries regarding DISPATCHES: How To Buy A Football Club.

 

We are sorry to hear that you found this documentary distasteful and feel it used the death of Markus Liebherr to illustrate a point about the ownership of Southhampton Football Club. Please be assured your complaint has been logged and noted for the information of those responsible for our programming.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us. We appreciate all feedback from our viewers; complimentary or otherwise.

 

Regards,

 

Angie Young

Channel 4 Viewer Enquiries

Exactly the same as the response to my complaint. Whilst it might have been 'noted', I would prefer to know that it will actually be considered and a full response supplied.

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