Ideal midfield in a 4-4-2.

[Appy]

His role means he will rarely get into the position to have a shot. Getting him to shoot for shootings sake from long range when better options are available to him, is a daft idea.

 

 

 

Why do they? Saints got promoted last season without two central midfielders getting 5 or more goals. As long as they are in a team that creates chances and scores goals collectively you don't need to assign a goal target for each position, especially if it disrupts the overall performance of a tactic.

 

What about when he broke through against Walsall, it opened up for him to shoot about 20 yards out, instead of shooting he passed to Chamberlain who was clearly offside. Why didn't he shoot then?

 

I'm not talking about him shooting everytime he gets the ball, i mean for him to actually have a shot from time to time. Which lets be honest, he very rarely does, even when in good positions.

[Hamilton Saint]

---------Cork---------Morgan---------

 

Chambo--------Lallana--------New Winger

 

-----------------Lambert---------------

 

 

The original poster asked for the ideal midfield in a 4-4-2 formation.

[Appy]

Fonte and Davis need to score at least 4 or more goals this season, I fully expect Adkins to pop up with one also

 

That might be funny if Fonte hadn't scored 7 goals last season.

[Smirking_Saint]

That might be funny if Fonte hadn't scored 7 goals last season.

 

TBF I did think that when I posted it but I thought I would run with it

 

It will be cracking if he scored even 4 or 5 this year.

 

FWIW I sort of agree with your thinking but as for Hammond, Chaplow, Morgan or Cork scoring goals I would be surprised if they scored more than 5 or 6 between them. Those four with the possible exception of Chappers are there in order to provide a balance that we lack in the playing of Lallana and Chambo who primarily are there as wingers. Morgan has shown he can attack if needed but the more I watch the more I think he is restricted under orders, and TBF the way he creates play in the 1st and 2nd stages of an attack I am happy with that.

[Danish Saint]

The original poster asked for the ideal midfield in a 4-4-2 formation.

 

TBF, I'm enjoying the discussion on our midfield tactics and line-up. It's good to see how different we see the team and the tactics, that should be played.

[Asaint4ever]

OxO - Cork - Morgan - Lallana

 

This 100%

[up and away]

Originally Posted by Appy

Morgan really needs to add at least 5 goals a season to his game.

 

His game as the midfield anchor, sitting in front of the back four for most of a match? It really doesn't matter if he doesn't score, it simply isn't his role in the team to get forward into positions where he could score that often.

 

When you do something as well as Morgan did, he is more than worth his place for that alone, no question IMO. But he has to do that job for the season, not 7-8 games in the middle of the season. I thought he turned a corner last year after some less than quality defensive displays and hope he can do the same one level higher.

[Saint Fan CaM]

It's because we don't play that system. We play with two deeper lying central midfielders. Yes, Chaplow gets in the box but he doesn't play as a "no 10" like Guly and Lallana can, for example the Blackpool cup game.

 

What is a "no 10"?! The issue was who would play in the central midfield position in front of two deeper lying CM's. It's never been Lallana or Guly to the best of my knowledge. Chaplow is far more capable in that role - he knows the centre of the park and can attack the box - with pace.

 

Not me with the "nuts statement".

 

You are confusing central midfield in a 442, with a central attacking midfielder in a 4231 formation.

 

The latter is not looking for a "box to box" player like Chaplow as you state. The role behind the lone striker needs to be a creative very attacking player, ala Lallana or Guly. I didn't say for them to play in central midfield, the 4231 formation doesn't require the central player in the 3 behind the striker to be particularly defensive and thus isn't a typical central midfield role.

 

I'm not confusing anything. As I've said above, Lallana or Guly don't play that CM role in a 4231 formation...why? Must be a good reason. And I would argue that with Lallana out on the left, Oxo OR Guly on the right (as he normally is), Chaplow would be the best player to link the deep CM's with the striker(s) as he has the ability to get back and defend the CM area if Lallana or Oxo/Guly get forward. If we play at home, I would not advocate 4231 anyway.

[Saint Fan CaM]

This 100%

 

Cannot see Cork and Schneiderlin playing alongside each other in a 4-4-2 TBH.

[The Kraken]

Cannot see Cork and Schneiderlin playing alongside each other in a 4-4-2 TBH.

 

They did in our last game.

[Matthew Le God]

What is a "no 10"?! The issue was who would play in the central midfield position in front of two deeper lying CM's. It's never been Lallana or Guly to the best of my knowledge. Chaplow is far more capable in that role - he knows the centre of the park and can attack the box - with pace.

 

I'm not confusing anything. As I've said above, Lallana or Guly don't play that CM role in a 4231 formation...why? Must be a good reason. And I would argue that with Lallana out on the left, Oxo OR Guly on the right (as he normally is), Chaplow would be the best player to link the deep CM's with the striker(s) as he has the ability to get back and defend the CM area if Lallana or Oxo/Guly get forward. If we play at home, I would not advocate 4231 anyway.

 

Saints haven't played 4231 under Adkins.

 

They have played 41212, under Adkins and both Guly and Lallana have both been at the tip of the midfield diamond.

 

You are confusing something, you seem to think playing in central midfield in a 442 is the same as playing as the central player in the 3, in a 4231 system. When in fact it is a completely different role, requiring different types of players.

 

Cannot see Cork and Schneiderlin playing alongside each other in a 4-4-2 TBH.

 

Why not?

 

Schneiderlin sitting deep, and Cork as the box to box player like he was for Burnley. Some people on here seem to think he only plays as a holding midfielder. Both Cork and Schneiderlin played together in central midfield in a 442 against St. Gallen, in the stronger of the two line-ups.

[Saint Fan CaM]

They did in our last game.

 

Experimental - meant next to nothing I would suggest. Plus we lost and scored how many? Mmm, dynamic midfield that worked really well then?!

[Matthew Le God]

Experimental - meant next to nothing I would suggest. Plus we lost and scored how many? Mmm, dynamic midfield that worked really well then?!

 

They didn't lose. It was a 0-0 draw in that half of the game. A completely different set of players lost the second half, in what after all was a non competitive fitness building game, two weeks into pre-season.

 

Did you watch the game? How do you know it didn't work as a partnership? What makes you think it wouldn't work? They are very different types of players that I think will compliment each other well.

[The Kraken]

Experimental - meant next to nothing I would suggest. Plus we lost and scored how many? Mmm, dynamic midfield that worked really well then?!

 

Being as it was the first game Cork played, I would imagine it means a little more than nothing. I doubt Adkins will write them off as a combination after 45 minutes as you seem to have!

 

The reports I've seen of the game (online, Echo) seem to suggest that the first half partnership of Cork and Schneiderlin was a lot mroe effective than the second half partnership of Hammond and Chaplow. Of course there will be more experimentation before the season starts, we'll likely see all 4 midfielders play alongside each other at some point. But come the Leeds game I'll be very surprised if it isn't Cork alongside one of Morgan or Hammond, and my money is on Hammond being the one who dips out.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Saints haven't played 4231 under Adkins.

 

They have played 41212, under Adkins and both Guly and Lallana have both been at the tip of the midfield diamond.

 

Semantics and I can't remember either of them taking up a predominantly central role. Also, I don't think the supposed 41212 formation was particularly successful - probably a last minute panic strategy.

 

You are confusing something, you seem to think playing in central midfield in a 442 is the same as playing as the central player in the 3, in a 4231 system. When in fact it is a completely different role, requiring different types of players.

 

No - once again I am not confusing anything. I understand the difference - try not to be so condescending.

Why not?

 

Schneiderlin sitting deep, and Cork as the box to box player like he was for Burnley. Some people on here seem to think he only plays as a holding midfielder. Both Cork and Schneiderlin played together in central midfield in a 442 against St. Gallen, in the stronger of the two line-ups.

 

See my other answer - this was experimental and it would seem didn't work too well...stronger? We lost. I didn't think it would as IMO they don't appear to compliment each other - like Gerrard and Lampard not working together perhaps. Having said that, I would delighted to be proved wrong.

 

See above...

[Saint Fan CaM]

Being as it was the first game Cork played, I would imagine it means a little more than nothing. I doubt Adkins will write them off as a combination after 45 minutes as you seem to have!

 

The reports I've seen of the game (online, Echo) seem to suggest that the first half partnership of Cork and Schneiderlin was a lot mroe effective than the second half partnership of Hammond and Chaplow. Of course there will be more experimentation before the season starts, we'll likely see all 4 midfielders play alongside each other at some point. But come the Leeds game I'll be very surprised if it isn't Cork alongside one of Morgan or Hammond, and my money is on Hammond being the one who dips out.

 

You're right - we didn't lose the 1st half. I am not making a judgement on just that game though, but on video clips I've seen of Cork and of course the manner in which Morgan plays. It's only my opinion sure, but I really do not believe we will see them start together and as such meaning Hammond gets left-out. Personally I would prefer to see Cork and Chaplow together. While I think he's useful, I do not subscribe to the hero-worship view some have of Schneiderlin - not yet anyway as he has much to do to convince me he has what it takes to be a success in the NPC let alone the Prem.

[Matthew Le God]

Semantics and I can't remember either of them taking up a predominantly central role. Also, I don't think the supposed 41212 formation was particularly successful - probably a last minute panic strategy.

 

The 41212 system was used in pretty much every game in the second half of last season. So not a "last minute panic strategy" at all.

 

Just because you can't remember it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Adkins likes to change formations throughout matches and the 41212 was one of his main ones, along with the regular 442. Lallana and Guly both played at the tip of the diamond in the former, a similar(ish) role to that of someone in the central attacking midfield role in a 4231.

 

No - once again I am not confusing anything. I understand the difference - try not to be so condescending.

 

You have shown nothing to show me you know the difference. You keep repeating the view that you see them as similar roles, when they are not. They require completely different attributes.

 

See my other answer - this was experimental and it would seem didn't work too well...stronger? We lost. I didn't think it would as IMO they don't appear to compliment each other - like Gerrard and Lampard not working together perhaps. Having said that, I would delighted to be proved wrong.

 

The game against St Gallen involved two completely different sets of XI players, the half in which Cork and Schneiderlin played was a 0-0 draw, they didn't lose. What happened in the second half had no bearing on that of those that played in the first half.

 

Also it was a non competitive game, two weeks into pre-season in order to build fitness, nothing should be taken from the result.

 

Why do you think it didn't work in those 45 minutes? Were you there? Just because the team didn't score, it doesn't mean the central midfield pairing didn't work well.

 

Why do you think they don't compliment each other?

Edited 18 July, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[NickG]

Experimental - meant next to nothing I would suggest. Plus we lost and scored how many? Mmm, dynamic midfield that worked really well then?!

 

the echo reporter was so impressed by them together that are running an article in their paper about our promotion capt may have lost his starting place.

[benjii]

The point about Schneiderlin and his lack of goals is not that it, "isn't his job", it's that he has been in plenty of good goal scoring positions and, bar one long-range pot shot, has made a hash of them. This calls into question his mental strength under pressure and his temperament IMO. This is not surprising as IMO his mentality is the big question mark hanging over him. There is no doubt he has the talent but does he have the mentality to produce his best form consistently, to maintain concentration under pressure and to retain his disciplince.

 

If the answer is, "yes" then he can be a top player. It remains to be seen but I am hopeful this will be the season where he leaves us in no doubt.

[Smirking_Saint]

What is a "no 10"?! The issue was who would play in the central midfield position in front of two deeper lying CM's. It's never been Lallana or Guly to the best of my knowledge. Chaplow is far more capable in that role - he knows the centre of the park and can attack the box - with pace.

 

 

 

I'm not confusing anything. As I've said above, Lallana or Guly don't play that CM role in a 4231 formation...why? Must be a good reason. And I would argue that with Lallana out on the left, Oxo OR Guly on the right (as he normally is), Chaplow would be the best player to link the deep CM's with the striker(s) as he has the ability to get back and defend the CM area if Lallana or Oxo/Guly get forward. If we play at home, I would not advocate 4231 anyway.

 

A number 10 is a player that is essentially a midfield advanced playmaker, trequartista or second (shadow) forward in the same role as Totti/del piero has played most of their careers.

 

Chaplow is most certainly not that, he is a box to box central midfielder.

 

Guly played their at Cesena and it appears to be essentially his best position. He also looks good out wide as he is played as an inside forward there, and as we play with two forward wingers in Lallana and Chambo then we need players behind them to shield them.

 

Of course if we play 442 generally when we play Guly and Barnard etc and so are not supporting (carrying) lambert then you can afford a breaking midfielder in Chappers

[shurlock]

The point about Schneiderlin and his lack of goals is not that it, "isn't his job", it's that he has been in plenty of good goal scoring positions and, bar one long-range pot shot, has made a hash of them. This calls into question his mental strength under pressure and his temperament IMO. This is not surprising as IMO his mentality is the big question mark hanging over him. There is no doubt he has the talent but does he have the mentality to produce his best form consistently, to maintain concentration under pressure and to retain his disciplince.

 

If the answer is, "yes" then he can be a top player. It remains to be seen but I am hopeful this will be the season where he leaves us in no doubt.

 

Agree -he's done it for France and the Dutch Duo even had hopes of him playing in the hole which weren't so stupid given his initial form (admittedly they were friendlies but he ran the show against Celtic and Wet Sham). Some assume he can't tackle -that he's not gritty enough. Yes he's not an aggressive player but he's shown himself more than capable of breaking up possession and winning back the ball. Whether its defending or going forward, its a mental thing. Don't know whether its something you can teach - and how much being young and foreign makes a difference - CM is quite a weight for young shoulders to bear as you're expected the catalyse the team (the likes of fabregas and flamini took a while). But we will see. Hopefully, this season is the one.

[egg]

There's a good argument for any combination of our main 4 cm's.

 

The best balance depends on the opposition and other factors such as whether we are looking to counter attack, play mostly through the middLe, push one or both full backs on etc etc

 

Personally I wouldn't favour cork and Morgan in an old fashioned 442 against the better or more physical teams. I think hammond with one of the other two will give us a bit more steel and experience.

[shurlock]

There's a good argument for any combination of our main 4 cm's.

 

The best balance depends on the opposition and other factors such as whether we are looking to counter attack, play mostly through the middLe, push one or both full backs on etc etc

 

Personally I wouldn't favour cork and Morgan in an old fashioned 442 against the better or more physical teams. I think hammond with one of the other two will give us a bit more steel and experience.

 

Agree, though do we give Cork and Morgan the benefit of the doubt and see if they can stand up to the physical/better teams? Or do we go straight with Hammond?

 

I get the sense that, come what may, NA will start with Hammond (+Cork). Just can't see him making such a massive statement so early on; on the other hand, can see him acting v.quickly if results or performances don't go our way.

[egg]

D

Agree, though do we give Cork and Morgan the benefit of the doubt and see if they can stand up to the physical/better teams? Or do we go straight with Hammond?

 

I get the sense that, come what may, NA will start with Hammond (+Cork). Just can't see him making such a massive statement so early on; on the other hand, can see him acting v.quickly if results or performances don't go our way.

 

 

I think he'll go with Hammond and cork to begin with, because of the opponents.

 

I can see the formation changing during games, and from game to game though, especially if we don't get another striker in.

 

The current squad has the personnel to play 442, a diamond, 4231, 433 and 451. I expect to see all of those formations used at differing points.

[Appy]

No offence but anyone reading anything, positive or negative into the result of an early friendly game losing most the credibility in their point!

 

Cork and Morgan compliment each other very well on paper. In fact, did they play together last time he was here? They are both composed players, Cork can tackle more, either can sit back and let Lallana and Chamberlain get forward, hopefully Cork can get in the box a bit more and get a few goals.

 

I'd be amazed if he wasn't bought with that long term partnership in mind. I hope it's given plenty of time to work, as it could prove to be a good partnership for many years, and having good players used to each other just can't be bought over night. So rather than 'one half of a meaningless friendly and it doesnt work' can we work closer towards giving them 20 or 30 competitive games together?

 

They would've played together in 08/09 yes.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I think some are confusing Cork being a better player than Schneiderlin with more in his kit bag to offer, with them being different style players.

[Matthew Le God]

I think some are confusing Cork being a better player than Schneiderlin with more in his kit bag to offer, with them being different style players.

 

Schneiderlin is a holding midfielder. He sits just in front of the centre backs, wins the ball or collects from the defence and creates moves early on with a range of passing.

 

Cork is a box to box midfielder. He is good on the ball, good passer and likes to break forward.

 

What type of players do you think they are?

Edited 18 July, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Saint Fan CaM]

Schneiderlin is a holding midfielder. He sits just in front of the centre backs, wins the ball or collects from the defence and creates moves early on with a range of passing.

 

Cork is a box to box midfielder. He is good on the ball, good passer and likes to break forward.

 

What type of players do you think they are?

 

I agree with your assessment of Cork to a point, but think he is more defensive than you suggest. I think many would like to think Schneiderlin is that type of player too, but he isn't. That's why when he was played alongside Hammond our central midfield was on many occasions ineffective for being too defensive. I'm not against Schneiderlin, just don't think he's a good match to Cork necessarily. However, perhaps Adkins can train them to work well together - if I'm wrong and they start consistently together, I'll be pleased to admit to being wrong TBF.