Can Adkins attract top players to the club?

[Gordon Mockles]

Gordon Mockles, it works both ways. You complain about the quality of this board but then anyone with an opposing view is shouted down an jumped upon. Personally I welcome alternative views because it makes things more interesting. Te same cannot be said for nickg and his ilk.

 

When did I complain about the quality of the board? Re-read my posts. The past board and the low days (I won't type his proper name as it offends me typing it, the destructive t*sser!) yes but not now. Football fans are always fickle and we have more than our fair share but my comments are my opinion and I will agree, disagree or possible berate stupid views....it's called debate. It happens in every day life, politics and, dare I say it, football forums. I considered my view fairly balanced and sensible, you may disagree but if you or others are so sensitive you can't handle a respite, then maybe the well known cliché involving "heat" and "kitchens" (with unrivalled catering facilities) should apply.

 

I like the posts from reasoned posters shouting day nonsense opinions. After all, many are sensationlist, ill thought out and stupid. CB Fry is the chief of smart arsed chastisement but he often has a point if not saturated in sarcasm and pomposity. It's a forum, it makes me laugh hearing some debates...others get tedious but that's life. I have confidence in our club and some should stop frothing at the mouth at being challenged on meaningless views. That's life...and it's the internet. Home of insidious trolls, sh*t stirrers and attention seekers! Just use your proverbial sieve to weed out the dross.

[Gordon Mockles]

For all the Adkins dissenters, I give to you....George Burley. Supposed big name manager, who bought, mainly, dross.

 

Judge Adkins at the end of this season, not before.

 

Seems to have been overlooked that we signed the likes of Fonte who is already championship standard.

 

Well said. I believe Duncan was of the same opinion in that Burley was probably the worst manager we’d had in years for his sheer incompetency and lack lustre approach and destructive manner. Worst than Branfoot in many ways due to the sheer complacency and disregard to management/his squad, his alleged drinking and demotivating players and bizarre tactical and training decisions (and terrible physios under his reign). Many other alleged misdemenaours although this is not the place to discuss those. Branfoot was just p*ss poor. Burley was a disgrace to football and certainly our club. I digress.

 

Oh, and for the record, in case some of the points were aimed at me (for which I agree in part), I also get slightly frustrated by people expressing opinions and being berated for them (dependent on context). In fact, if you read my past posts, the ‘Is Adkins able to attract the calibre of players we require’ question was a point I have been banging on about for some time. I am not panicking about it although I was more concerned last week. It is a reasoned view worth considering and, until we sign a player of enough class (which I believe we already have but yet to announce), it is still pertenant.

 

The point I made which a few have either not understood or misinterpeted is that as a town, or county even, there is a significant concensus of people with a bizarre attitude and certainly a chip on the shoulder. It’s significant enough to notice when meeting natives from different areas of the country but that’s a another tangent. This is not aimed at Wade or the content of the original post whatsoever. Far from it, I hold the same view as I mentioned myself. I was highlighting that many Southampton fans (and particularly some of the over-reactions and obscure views on this forum) recently have banged on re: Adkins tenure, the sheer impatience in signing players and, I felt, entirely unfair criticism of a solid and rapidly improving board that run the club.

 

By the end of this month I believe fans will be smiling and even one signing, the mood on this board will shift significantly. That's the changing tide and nature of football fans, change like the wind (that's not meant to be an arrogant intonation I must add, a mere observation).

 

Over and out.

[trousers]

Oh do give over.....

 

Nobody is calling for Adkins to be sacked so don't try and make it into that....

 

I am one of the positive ones, far more so then you. I am not fretting about signings or anything like that. It is a simple question that in it's simplist form is this

 

"Can a manager influence where a player decides to play?". And if you read Nolans remarks about Sam then obviously they do.

 

It seems on here we have a bunch of people who can't handle debate. If it is something negative they must have an agenda. If they talk and say something bad about the manager they must want him out. If they mention something the chairman did that was wrong then they must be ungrateful. And all the rest of that ********.

 

By the looks of it some people think the point is to come on giving it the large and have some kind of **** waving contest....that is what is sad. That you can't even have discussion on here without the usual knobs invading it and turning it into something it isn't...

 

Agree. But this is the Saintsweb Forum....where respecting other's views isn't mandatory.... ;-)

 

IMHO, you raise a perfectly reasonable hypothesis in your OP. I've certainly steered my career in certain directions in order to cross paths with managers who I have respect for. But it does work both ways - some of the more "well known" managers in my industry can be pains to work for, so I try and steer clear of them. So, yes, the manager can certainly be a factor in career decision making (if indeed one is in a position of choice).

 

As I say, a reasonable topic for discussion that inevitably falls foul of the debate police on here.

[Pat from Poole]

Well said. I believe Duncan was of the same opinion in that Burley was probably the worst manager we’d had in years for his sheer incompetency and lack lustre approach and destructive manner. Worst than Branfoot in many ways due to the sheer complacency and disregard to management/his squad, his alleged drinking and demotivating players and bizarre tactical and training decisions (and terrible physios under his reign). Many other alleged misdemenaours although this is not the place to discuss those. Branfoot was just p*ss poor. Burley was a disgrace to football and certainly our club. I digress.

 

Oh, and for the record, in case some of the points were aimed at me (for which I agree in part), I also get slightly frustrated by people expressing opinions and being berated for them (dependent on context). In fact, if you read my past posts, the ‘Is Adkins able to attract the calibre of players we require’ question was a point I have been banging on about for some time. I am not panicking about it although I was more concerned last week. It is a reasoned view worth considering and, until we sign a player of enough class (which I believe we already have but yet to announce), it is still pertenant.

 

The point I made which a few have either not understood or misinterpeted is that as a town, or county even, there is a significant concensus of people with a bizarre attitude and certainly a chip on the shoulder. It’s significant enough to notice when meeting natives from different areas of the country but that’s a another tangent. This is not aimed at Wade or the content of the original post whatsoever. Far from it, I hold the same view as I mentioned myself. I was highlighting that many Southampton fans (and particularly some of the over-reactions and obscure views on this forum) recently have banged on re: Adkins tenure, the sheer impatience in signing players and, I felt, entirely unfair criticism of a solid and rapidly improving board that run the club.

 

By the end of this month I believe fans will be smiling and even one signing, the mood on this board will shift significantly. That's the changing tide and nature of football fans, change like the wind (that's not meant to be an arrogant intonation I must add, a mere observation).

 

Over and out.

 

Couldn't agree with you more re Burley. Was astonished that Scotland and Palace were daft enough to employ him.

[Saint_clark]

I don't seem to remember anyone (except TDD and Alpine) raising complaints about Burley when he was actually here, so it makes me chuckle when they talk about how "everyone knew" what he was like at the time.

[Give it to Ron]

I don't seem to remember anyone (except TDD and Alpine) raising complaints about Burley when he was actually here, so it makes me chuckle when they talk about how "everyone knew" what he was like at the time.

 

You must have a very bad memory then.....I often ranted about that useless **** and there were others! Like bringing on Saga in injury time when we were 0-2 down with 40 minutes to go.

The squad he had should of been automatic promotion not rely on Preston imploding.

Dropping Rasiak, playing 6 yes 6 players on their wrong side against Huddersfield.

DD and Alpine were right about Burley....well a stopped clock is right twice a day ;-)

[dubai_phil]

I don't seem to remember anyone (except TDD and Alpine) raising complaints about Burley when he was actually here, so it makes me chuckle when they talk about how "everyone knew" what he was like at the time.

 

Blimey, better take up Sudoku then it may help...

 

Perhaps you only remember them due to the way they posted but I think a very large number of us were unhappy about him and his selections, and nocturnal activities

[Professor]

Not sure that when a player transfers, money is the only factor in choosing between interested clubs. Surely it depends on how big the money gap is and if its not a lot, other factors will count. The prospect of being at a winning club, potential promotion bonus and whether the club has a strong pool of players, will all mater, as will the reputation of the manager. Fair or not, there are quite a few clubs in the NpC whose managers have a higher profile and more of a track record at higher level than Adkins. That doesn't make Adkins an impediment but it may mean that we have to try harder to get a player we want.

[krissyboy31]

I don't seem to remember anyone (except TDD and Alpine) raising complaints about Burley when he was actually here, so it makes me chuckle when they talk about how "everyone knew" what he was like at the time.

 

I remember it the other way round, with only a very few defending him. I lost faith with him very early in his reign and I certainly wasn't alone.

[fromdayone]

Yes....Jack Cork!!!

Close thread.

[Jez]

Me and a mate were talking about why Cork and possibly Sharp/Maynard did not want to move here. Maybe the manager and his lack of experience at the highest level play's some part even if just a tiny % in that.

 

So now Cork has signed, and your fears are totally unfounded, can someone please start another thread about how we attract top players because Adkins is in charge. Thanks.

But in all seriousness, Adkins being here was no doubt instrumental in why Cork DID sign for Saints, as he had played under him before. He may have got a chance to play in the EPL, he may have been offered more money elsewhere (we may never know if either of them are true) but it may be, similar to Nolan, that the manager was an integral part in the player choosing Saints.

[CB Fry]

I don't seem to remember anyone (except TDD and Alpine) raising complaints about Burley when he was actually here, so it makes me chuckle when they talk about how "everyone knew" what he was like at the time.

 

 

I don't seem to remember many people defending Burley while he was here, the season where we dribbled into sixth despite spending a kings ransom on an entire squad hand picked by him, there were plenty of dissenters. And rightly so, his reign was at best a dispicable waste of resourses. Arrived when we were 12, scuttled off to the Jocks after 2 years and several gazillion pis sed up the wall with us in 13th. Absolute waste of space.

[Thedelldays]

In response to the OP

 

 

Yes. What's the next adkins bashing subject?

[Dalek2003]

Which big signing has NA managed to attract ?

[Thedelldays]

Which big signing has NA managed to attract ?

 

Cork clearly.

Or is Adkins only responsible for the crap ones?

[Give it to Ron]

Which big signing has NA managed to attract ?

 

Are you really a teacher?

[S-Clarke]

Which big signing has NA managed to attract ?

 

Stop being a predictable WUM.

[Gemmel]

Are you really a teacher?

 

It's a bit worrying isn't it????

[St Marco]

In response to the OP

 

 

Yes. What's the next adkins bashing subject?

 

Who said it was an Adkins bashing thread?

 

Stop trying to be confrontational with your posts....

[Red And White Barmy Army]

I think tbf the Cork signing doesn't prove much. I and am sure many others didn't doubt the ability of the club (inc Adkins) to bring in championship standard players who are young and have ambition. The type of signing which would stand me corrected would be a player in his prime who is looking for a manager that can bring out something extra in them to make sure they continue to develop different aspects of their game. For example, Lambert was in his prime(ish) but thought Pardew and the club would help him develop a lot more (which clearly happened). I believe he stated as much in one of his first interviews also. Not enough players know how good Adkins is yet (or how he can help them develop). That is still the underlying problem for me which should be corrected with a top half finish this year which will help develop his reputation. Cork is different in that he knows he will continue to develop without being choosey regarding managers. It is the experience and the team which will develop him more than anything else. Bring in a good championship standard player in his prime and I will stand corrected. That is all.

[NickG]

I think tbf the Cork signing doesn't prove much. I and am sure many others didn't doubt the ability of the club (inc Adkins) to bring in championship standard players who are young and have ambition. The type of signing which would stand me corrected would be a player in his prime who is looking for a manager that can bring out something extra in them to make sure they continue to develop different aspects of their game. For example, Lambert was in his prime(ish) but thought Pardew and the club would help him develop a lot more (which clearly happened). I believe he stated as much in one of his first interviews also. Not enough players know how good Adkins is yet (or how he can help them develop). That is still the underlying problem for me which should be corrected with a top half finish this year which will help develop his reputation. Cork is different in that he knows he will continue to develop without being choosey regarding managers. It is the experience and the team which will develop him more than anything else. Bring in a good championship standard player in his prime and I will stand corrected. That is all.

 

there is no logic to that!

 

Its harder to get a player who has seem ability but has already peaked and therefore not in as much demand??

[Red And White Barmy Army]

there is no logic to that!

 

Its harder to get a player who has seem ability but has already peaked and therefore not in as much demand??

 

I thought i took enough time to explain the logic pretty well actually but maybe i should help you more...

 

it is harder to get a player with potential than some1 over the hill - yes of course. but i am not talking about players who are over the hill, i'm talking about players in their prime. it must have been alot harder to buy Rickie Lambert 2 years ago than when he was 22! surely?! I used CMS in my 1st post on this thread as the example of type of player i would be surprised if NA could attract because he is 27(?). At that age fewer managers would be able to develop a player than when they were 22. That's the way the system works - level one coaches coach the under 9s cos it's about letting them play and explore and gradually over the years they progress to the elite level where fewer and fewer managers can bring out an extra something.

 

RL's development had plateaued at Bristol Rovers and then Pardew coached him and pushed him to the next level. If my career plateaued at the age of 25/26/27 then I wouldn't jump on any old bandwaggon - i would want to stay at the top of my game for as long as possible and go for a manager with a decent reputation. CMS would have thought poyet could develop him because he would have a lot of respect for him as a top player and therefore has some very good experience behind him. IF saints had been in for him i doubt he would have come here any way because he doesn't know enough about Adkins because his reputation isn't developed enough yet.

 

Simples?

 

Bed.

[NickG]

I thought i took enough time to explain the logic pretty well actually but maybe i should help you more...

 

it is harder to get a player with potential than some1 over the hill - yes of course. but i am not talking about players who are over the hill, i'm talking about players in their prime. it must have been alot harder to buy Rickie Lambert 2 years ago than when he was 22! surely?! I used CMS in my 1st post on this thread as the example of type of player i would be surprised if NA could attract because he is 27(?). At that age fewer managers would be able to develop a player than when they were 22. That's the way the system works - level one coaches coach the under 9s cos it's about letting them play and explore and gradually over the years they progress to the elite level where fewer and fewer managers can bring out an extra something.

 

RL's development had plateaued at Bristol Rovers and then Pardew coached him and pushed him to the next level. If my career plateaued at the age of 25/26/27 then I wouldn't jump on any old bandwaggon - i would want to stay at the top of my game for as long as possible and go for a manager with a decent reputation. CMS would have thought poyet could develop him because he would have a lot of respect for him as a top player and therefore has some very good experience behind him. IF saints had been in for him i doubt he would have come here any way because he doesn't know enough about Adkins because his reputation isn't developed enough yet.

 

Simples?

 

Bed.

 

so harder to buy a league 1 player passing his peak than a current England U21 player very well thought of in CCC.

 

Sure if we went for CMS we would have had a very good chance of getting him

[Dig Dig]

I thought i took enough time to explain the logic pretty well actually but maybe i should help you more...

 

it is harder to get a player with potential than some1 over the hill - yes of course. but i am not talking about players who are over the hill, i'm talking about players in their prime. it must have been alot harder to buy Rickie Lambert 2 years ago than when he was 22! surely?! I used CMS in my 1st post on this thread as the example of type of player i would be surprised if NA could attract because he is 27(?). At that age fewer managers would be able to develop a player than when they were 22. That's the way the system works - level one coaches coach the under 9s cos it's about letting them play and explore and gradually over the years they progress to the elite level where fewer and fewer managers can bring out an extra something.

 

RL's development had plateaued at Bristol Rovers and then Pardew coached him and pushed him to the next level. If my career plateaued at the age of 25/26/27 then I wouldn't jump on any old bandwaggon - i would want to stay at the top of my game for as long as possible and go for a manager with a decent reputation. CMS would have thought poyet could develop him because he would have a lot of respect for him as a top player and therefore has some very good experience behind him. IF saints had been in for him i doubt he would have come here any way because he doesn't know enough about Adkins because his reputation isn't developed enough yet.

 

Simples?

 

Bed.

 

So Adkins can only attract and coach players from the age of 9 and 22 and then over the age of 30! Someone should tell NC quick or this could be distratrous.

[Red And White Barmy Army]

jesus...

 

i interpret the title of this thread to be in reference to 'established players' with a good reputation. what a 22 year old looks for in a club and a 27 year old looks for are 2 completely different things imo. there is no 'harder' or 'easier' to buy 1 person or another, there is just a 'difference'. just the same as i wouldn't like to say whether fonte is better than lambert. there is just a difference. i believe there is a difference in attracting a cork type player to a more established type player. u say ur 'sure' we would have a pretty decent chance of getting CMS but that's the whole point of this thread i think - many people are not so sure. Adkins didn't make that sort of signing in January and hasn't shown an indication that he will again this summer. as i say, i could be wrong but that's the point of having a discussion. some1 come up with a theory/hypothesis and we discuss whether it will have practical implications. some think it will, so don't..

 

dig........ i believe Adkins will find it difficult to attract established players with a good reputation in the prime of their careers. i think any player in their prime that he can attract would be one that is either not doing so well at the moment or is not established enough yet in England. 25-28 is the age range i'm talking about which is usually when players come into their prime. this has nothing to do with Adkins' ability to coach these players it is about the PERCEPTION of whether the players think NA would be able to develop them better than other managers with more experience at a higher level. that perception is enhanced by one's reputation as a manager. i'm sure adkins would be the 1st to admit that he does not have the same reputation as many of the current championship managers (yet).

[NickG]

CMS, 27 years, 106 conference appearances, 51 league 2 appearances, 91 league 1 appearances, 43 championship appearances, 0 premiership appearances, 3 mins for scots in friendly

 

Cork, 22 years, 0 conference appearances, 0 league 2 appearances, 7 league 1 appearances, 137 championship appearances, 11 premiership appearances, 14 Eng U19 - Capt, 13 Eng U21

 

Respect your opinion, I believe that Cork is more established at higher levels than CMS - plus more potential.

[capitalsaint]

CMS, 27 years, 106 conference appearances, 51 league 2 appearances, 91 league 1 appearances, 43 championship appearances, 0 premiership appearances, 3 mins for scots in friendly

 

Cork, 22 years, 0 conference appearances, 0 league 2 appearances, 7 league 1 appearances, 137 championship appearances, 11 premiership appearances, 14 Eng U19 - Capt, 13 Eng U21

 

Respect your opinion, I believe that Cork is more established at higher levels than CMS - plus more potential.

 

Says it all.

[Thedelldays]

Hold on.

So it's harder buying a league 1 striker when you are saints blowing everyone out of the water financially than going for an u21 international when a league higher and competing on a more even footing.

 

Really??

[Dig Dig]

Red and White Barmy Army:

dig........ i believe Adkins will find it difficult to attract established players with a good reputation in the prime of their careers. i think any player in their prime that he can attract would be one that is either not doing so well at the moment or is not established enough yet in England. 25-28 is the age range i'm talking about which is usually when players come into their prime. this has nothing to do with Adkins' ability to coach these players it is about the PERCEPTION of whether the players think NA would be able to develop them better than other managers with more experience at a higher level. that perception is enhanced by one's reputation as a manager. i'm sure adkins would be the 1st to admit that he does not have the same reputation as many of the current championship managers (yet).

 

I respect that this is your opinion but lets not forget that there is no actual eveidence to support your claim. Managers on average have a short tenure now days so any player basing a move on a manager would be un-wise to do so. I believe that players in their prime are likely to base a move on the money and length of contract (maybe the last lucrative one they can get) and also general club stature and location. In a few situations I'm sure the manager plays a big part, especially if there has been a relationship in the past.

 

CMS went to Brighton for the money. He had other offers at a higher level but chose Brighton because he got a 4 year deal on a big wage. He could have also worked for more established managers than Poyet (Warnock, Sven etc) but this didn't make a difference. I'm sure if we went in for him and offered him more money, he would be here, Adkins or no Adkins.