St Marco Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 No I don't mean that type of attract...... (Now that is out the way). Basically at work had a good convo with a fellow Saint and I think he raises an interesting point. Maybe the reason for the lack of arrivals and players wanting to move here has a little to do with Adkins? The guy has a great record in League One with both S****horpe and Saints. However beyond that he has a pretty awful record in The Championship. Two seasons there, one relegation and one 20th place finish. If you look back at his signings over the past year you have to say most were average at best. Chaplow is the only one who did well even though he had some poor spells too. In my opinion the reason Pardew could bring players in of the quality of Fonte/Lambert etc was in part down to his experience and reputation he gained. He went from us to Newcastle so that shows he is at least respected for his football experience. Adkins on the other hand is a guy who has to work his way up the ladder and obviously Saints is his best way of doing that. As my mate say's maybe these players don't think playing under Adkins is that big a deal? Especially when you consider the other managers in the league i.e. Sven, Big Sam,Mclaren,Holloway,Hughton,Jewell,Grayson,Mowbry etc who all have experience above what Adkins has. Now this isn't an "Adkins is the problem, Adkins out" type thread, don't be stupid. It is a thread asking if the manager’s name/reputation/experience plays a big role in attracting players to a club? The other threads suggest the problem is money or even Cortese and agents being the issue. But maybe it is just the players we are after want to play under a manager with more experience, maybe one who has managed in the top flight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Hmm, surprised no one has brought up this point before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 However beyond that he has a pretty awful record in The Championship. Two seasons there, one relegation and one 20th place finish. Keeping a tiny club like S****horpe in the Championship, with a 20th place finish is not awful. It is beyond what anyone thought would happen at the start of the season. In any case, players and their agents will look at the financial package and ambition of the club ahead of anything. I doubt Adkins not being a "big name" would be the reason anyone turns Saints down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 not sure anyone could convince Rooney, Messi et al to join the club at this present time to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 players seem to like playing for him - sure that reputation gets around. think its insulting their intelligence if you think they only want a boss, who will train them every day, who is famous. whether when they meet him he is more convincing than others - who knows. would you like to work for Holloway or Alardyce?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Players follow the money, it really is as simple as that. We're living within our means, whereas West Ham and Leicester for e.g. are going **** or bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 It had to be a factor. Adkins' reputation won't be that great. He had a very ordinary playing career and has had to build his career on Spells at Bangor City, Scunny and ourselves in League 1. Compare that to the names you mentioned you can see why we may be passed over. In the footballing world ability often is not always enough, it's also what you've done and who you know. Nigel's lack of profile can't be helping in the short term but hopefully his obvious ability as a manager will make up for that in the longer haul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 6 July, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Keeping a tiny club like S****horpe in the Championship, with a 20th place finish is not awful. It is beyond what anyone thought would happen at the start of the season. In any case, players and their agents will look at the financial package and ambition of the club ahead of anything. I doubt Adkins not being a "big name" would be the reason anyone turns Saints down. But it is awful..... The season they finished 20th Doncaster who you would have to say are a similar size club finished 12th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Obviously this has been debated to death and yes, I was unimpressed with a couple of Nige's signings last year. However, Lallana and Lambert have signed new deals and AOC stayed in January and may still be here at the start of the season. If he was that bad, they all would have been off like a shot... Also, I know there's f*ck all news at the moment, but this really should be debated when the transfer window closes...don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 But it is awful..... The season they finished 20th Doncaster who you would have to say are a similar size club finished 12th... A little unfair, I would say that is more a positive reflection on Shaun O'Driscoll rather then anything negative on Adkins' time at Scunny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 6 July, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Also about the whole money thing. If that was the case would players like Yakubu, Bellemy etc drop down to play in the championship? There are always going to be greedy players in it for the money. But there will also be players who want to win stuff. When Pardew came into the club he got Lallana and Davis to stay. I think the manager plays a far bigger role then some of you credit them for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 You might say that having a director of football would be perfect for us at present, but I think Adkins is doing a good job. Ok, he hasn't yet proved himself on the signings front, but he's doing a great job as a coach, and with young players coming through the ranks, that's a big plus. Signings will come, Cortese seems to have a draw too, Waigo and Guly were excellent signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 6 July, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 July, 2011 A little unfair, I would say that is more a positive reflection on Shaun O'Driscoll rather then anything negative on Adkins' time at Scunny. Exactly, that is my point. Driscoll did very well that season, he got that team pretty high up the table. That is more of an achivement then finish 1 place outside the relegation zone imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 You might say that having a director of football would be perfect for us at present, but I think Adkins is doing a good job. Ok, he hasn't yet proved himself on the signings front, but he's doing a great job as a coach, and with young players coming through the ranks, that's a big plus. Signings will come, Cortese seems to have a draw too, Waigo and Guly were excellent signings. I'm pretty sure that Les Reid is in essence our DoF, but just under a different job title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 But it is awful..... The season they finished 20th Doncaster who you would have to say are a similar size club finished 12th... Doncaster average 11k S****horpe average 6k S****horpe's budget was tiny compared to every other Championship club (including Doncaster). They have crowds that would fit in as a mid table League One team or top of League Two team, yet that season they were competing with Newcastle, Sheff Weds, Derby, Forest etc. Nor did the owner put in much cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Of course he can attract players & will attract better players the more he achieves as a manager, right now he is achieving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_Porter Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 It's my only real worry with Adkins, I think we may well struggle this summer to attract players, I'm sure by January he will be more of a draw as a manager after we hopefully have a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Exactly, that is my point. Driscoll did very well that season, he got that team pretty high up the table. That is more of an achivement then finish 1 place outside the relegation zone imo. Well, quite. But comparing a team who have had a lot of recent investment with one that's entirely self funded is a little off balance. I feel your point regarding reputation has merit, but comparisons between Doncaster and The Irons don't quite work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Also about the whole money thing. If that was the case would players like Yakubu, Bellemy etc drop down to play in the championship? Bellamy and Yakubu were on loan. They were still receiving 100% of their wages in their Everton and Man City contracts. Yakubu this summer doesn't look like he will go back to Leicester on a permanent deal as they don't want to pay his wages, despite Sven-Göran Eriksson being the manager. Bellamy wanted to play for his boyhood club on loan to get them to the Premier League and was still being paid his full wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Bald_Si Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Andre Villa-Boas isn't exactly what you'd regard as a "big name", but I can't imagine he won't be able to attract talent to Chelsea. Not quite the same scale, but Southampton is Southampton, I'm not sure how much the manager's reputation will be a factor in whether a player joins or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkie Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I think the issues with players is Adkins likes team players - many of the likes we have been linked with do not appear as team players, more individuals. His methods seem to work - he's got the best out of the squad and they all look to be loving it. It is a developing squad and to be honest some players might be intimidated by the togtherness of the existing squad. I think any player coming in has to be a bit special - he must have the thumbs up from Adkins (without overloading us with his old boys) and fit in with the squad. Most of all they have got to want to play for Southampton...and believe it or not I think that is where the problem lies. Many people over the years were attracted by lucrative contracts and easy money and no will to win due to expectations. It's different now - sensible money and an air of expectation...it's all pressure!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 6 July, 2011 Author Share Posted 6 July, 2011 (edited) Doncaster average 11k S****horpe average 6k S****horpe's budget was tiny compared to every other Championship club (including Doncaster). They have crowds that would fit in as a mid table League One team or top of League Two team, yet that season they were competing with Newcastle, Sheff Weds, Derby, Forest etc. Nor did the owner put in much cash. A bit of rounding going on there Matt If you go back to that season you see that S****horpe had an average of 6464 and Doncaster had one of 10992. Both were at the 70% mark of their capacity. But Sheff Weds who got relegated that year had an average of 23k. Blackpool had 8k can they got promoted to the pl. Which shows that attendances are not an indicator of how well a club will do. But i guess we can agree to disagree then. I don't think finishing 20th is good at all. Edited 6 July, 2011 by St Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red And White Barmy Army Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Was thinking about this the other day and couldn't help but feel that the likes of CMS etc would much rather play for some1 they already respect for playing or managing at a high level. NC has been good at selling a vision to players before but what was 'fantastic ambition' in league 1 is simply the norm in the championship. Every team has a long-term plan and unless NC pays over the odds on wages then the decisions of players is most likely to rest on their attitude towards the manager. Lallana and Lambert etc sign new contracts because they have had time to judge him and develop that respect. The likes of CMS have no idea what Adkins is about so are always going to prefer a manager to which they have a positive attitude rather than a neutral one. I fear NC is only just realising what a big pull Pardew had over many players that joined the club (Fonte, Lambert etc could have probably held out for other championship offers sooner or later). Whether it's right or not, I fear NA needs to finish top half this season or NC might go looking for a bigger name manager who can attract better players ahead of next summer's transfer window. The way to convince players to come is to firmly establish yourself as a championship manager by putting the results together on the pitch. Shouldn't be a major problem cos I think this team should be able to make top half with 1 or 2 extras. All IMO of course, we could sign Owen tomorrow and shut me right up but I'm just working on theoretical logic here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I'm pretty sure that Les Reid is in essence our DoF, but just under a different job title. I'm actually quite shocked that any poster who has been on this forum for more than one season actually still trots out that old Chestnut about Adkins looking for players, Adkins attracting players. That is NOT his job, FFS there were hundreds of threads examining the fact that Pardew idn't want Les Reed & his support staff involved - LeftBack days anyone? As for is NA rated - seems only a few warriors on here don't rate him. Look at what "Arry" had to say about him http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/england-job-would-interest-harry-redknapp-2075689.html The lad going to Southampton today, Nigel Adkins, you have only got to listen to him. He's bright as a button. "Look at the job he has done at S****horpe, keeping them in the Championship. There has got to be one of those boys out there somewhere. Give them a chance." And that is in relation to managing not only in the EPL but also with regard to the England Job in the future FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red And White Barmy Army Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 PS the way around all this is to bring in foreign players who don't know much about the championship and care less about what the manager's name is. Might mean we're looking towards Europe again. Did we ever confirm that Hans-Frieajlekfshkl scout person btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brussels Saint Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I reckon the managers "name" is a factor, St. Marco, but probably only a small one. I think it would also only influence maybe prem stars willing to take a drop to the champ, but I'm not sure thats the type of player we are after anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I think you are worrying about nothing, he has already said "we will do what we want when we want to do it." That says to me that this is a manager in calm, confident in control and knows what he is doing. He is intellegent and the current squad clearly love playing for him. When you take these things into account and that players we approach will all be eager to secure their dream move to Southampton i dont think Nige will have any problems attracting players, it's just making sure we dont mug ourselves off buy signing players to early when better become available later in the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 If a player and was offered 10k a week with a big name manager or 12k a week for a lesser known manager which one do you think they would take? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 But it is awful..... The season they finished 20th Doncaster who you would have to say are a similar size club finished 12th... Doncaster are a much bigger town and club than S****horpe. 15k capacity at Donny versus 9k or so for Scunny. That's a massive difference of potential resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 If a player and was offered 10k a week with a big name manager or 12k a week for a lesser known manager which one do you think they would take? I dont know, which? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Was thinking about this the other day and couldn't help but feel that the likes of CMS etc would much rather play for some1 they already respect for playing or managing at a high level. NC has been good at selling a vision to players before but what was 'fantastic ambition' in league 1 is simply the norm in the championship. Every team has a long-term plan and unless NC pays over the odds on wages then the decisions of players is most likely to rest on their attitude towards the manager. Lallana and Lambert etc sign new contracts because they have had time to judge him and develop that respect. The likes of CMS have no idea what Adkins is about so are always going to prefer a manager to which they have a positive attitude rather than a neutral one. I fear NC is only just realising what a big pull Pardew had over many players that joined the club (Fonte, Lambert etc could have probably held out for other championship offers sooner or later). Whether it's right or not, I fear NA needs to finish top half this season or NC might go looking for a bigger name manager who can attract better players ahead of next summer's transfer window. The way to convince players to come is to firmly establish yourself as a championship manager by putting the results together on the pitch. Shouldn't be a major problem cos I think this team should be able to make top half with 1 or 2 extras. All IMO of course, we could sign Owen tomorrow and shut me right up but I'm just working on theoretical logic here... CMS is probably not a good example as 1) it doesn't seem we were in for him during the summer and 2) Gus Poyet cannot be classed as an experienced and high profile manager that can attract players simply due to his reputation. I think CMS proves the opposite in fact ... players will go anywhere if the money and guarantee of playing time is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I dont know, which? Whichever his agent gets a bigger cut from ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint lard Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I so wanted to start a thread with this subject matter as the topic of conversation,but thought better of it. I do think there is some creedance to the thought that Adkins may not be seen as a big 'draw' for some players,and have done for some considerable time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I so wanted to start a thread with this subject matter as the topic of conversation,but thought better of it. I do think there is some creedance to the thought that Adkins may not be seen as a big 'draw' for some players,and have done for some considerable time. depends how much creedance players place on the manager when making a decision. In some circumstances I'm sure it will make a difference but my personal thought would be that the prestige of the club itself, location and terms of contract play more of a part than the manager. Particulary in a day and age when managers don't stick around for long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Oh and let's no forget....before our Nige even joined us, he was highly rated as a top upcoming manager within football circles. He's done nothing since but to enhance his reputation. I don't think it's a problem. He can't be less of a "draw" then a whole host of managers in the champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I so wanted to start a thread with this subject matter as the topic of conversation,but thought better of it. I do think there is some creedance to the thought that Adkins may not be seen as a big 'draw' for some players,and have done for some considerable time. I have hardly ever heard players at this level mention the manager and opportunity to work with them as the key reason behind them joining a club. They usually talk about the set-up, ambition, "sleeping giant" etc etc etc but not the manager. I still maintain that it is the financials that a club is willing to give a player that generally is the key to them joining and there are several clubs with big budgets in this league. For what it's worth I think the stable and prudent approach that we seem to adopt is a sound one and we should continue along those lines. There will be quality available at the right price and wages and I'm sure we will secure some of that quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardc Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 If you read what CMS, Earnshaw and a number of others said about there reasons for joining their new clubs it was that the manager made them feel that they were really wanted at the club or that the manager really sold the vision of the club to them. If Adkins is not really involved in the negotiations then this might play a factor in the seemingly lack of interest from players or maybe Adkins cant sell the vision very well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 I think that it's naive to suggest it's the manager not the club that players make a decision on - we know better than most that managers are transient although Adkins & NC seem to be very focused on the same aims...made easier by the fact that Adkins has a 1/1 target success rate. What I also think is understated in this sort of discussion is that though the players Pardew signed were here it's Adkins who has got them playing...is this not a facttor that players take in to account? I don't think Pardew did do a bad job but how many sissenters did you hear from our squad when he left? Not many voices raised to say that he was the reason they came or that they wanted to follow him...apart from Puncheon who has a plethora of excuses to fall out with everyone he's ever played for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Money talks these days unfortunately, this surely is the only reason CMS went to bumtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellman Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Its not just one name-Adkins-that draws a player its the whole club and its reputation, a few years ago it was zulch and the players we got were zulch too; its a different matter now and that will get around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 If you read what CMS, Earnshaw and a number of others said about there reasons for joining their new clubs it was that the manager made them feel that they were really wanted at the club or that the manager really sold the vision of the club to them. If Adkins is not really involved in the negotiations then this might play a factor in the seemingly lack of interest from players or maybe Adkins cant sell the vision very well I'm certain it will be Nicola Cortese that does the "selling" of the vision of the club. It has been mentioned several times when players have joined previously. Managers generally don't perform this role at clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ribbo Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Simon Grayson isnt a "name" but that doesnt make Leeds an unattractive team to play for, likewise with Reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 (edited) Putting aside the cash, I doubt whether our ability to attract players has much to do with the manager than the fact we're a newly promoted side whose quality is unknown. Even if NA never shrugs off the grinning four-eyed mormon/ex-physio tag, things will improve as we establish ourselves in the championship. The first transfer windown after promotion is always the hardest. As for CMS, it seemed like cash played a big role. I don't doubt some players mean it; but when hasn't a player talked about the manager's and chairman's vision as a reason for signing for a club? Lets not deify Pardew - it didn't take buckets of charisma or reputation to mop up the best of the rest from L1 or feed off a championship club on the brink. After all, Pards transfer record at other clubs isn't much to write home about, especially when he's hit a rocky patch. Has had a tendency to splurge on quantity rather than quality and get trigger happy with loan signings, unsettling his squads. Edited 6 July, 2011 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Whichever his agent gets a bigger cut from ;-) This cant be true. we were told by Westender on this weekend that money doesn't matter. Players will join clubs out of loyalty, love for the club, wanting to live in the area, dream move to a club on the up, where his wife & kids will be happiest etc. All we needed to do was tell him the vision and the plans for the stadium expansion, tell his kids if he has any Peppa Pig world is only 5 miles away and show his wife west quay shopping and they'd be falling over themselves to join us. Money isn't a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Yes, players will play ANYWHERE for the right money. If we have missed out on anyone it will be down to what we offered, it's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 FFS. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammysaint Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 90 percent of players go for money other 10percent inc other factors, look at carlos tevez gonna leave his 200k a week wages to move closer to home and get half of that to be near his kids and wife, ok 100k is still good but still he could be losing 50-100k a week moving clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Yes, players will play ANYWHERE for the right money. If we have missed out on anyone it will be down to what we offered, it's as simple as that. Not when this fantastic football is concearned, we are more than just a pay cheque, we are a way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 (edited) Its a bit more complicated than paying the right money. A player will arguably accept less money from a club if he believes that club is going places and will boost his future earning power -whether because he'll put himself in the shop window by playing for a successful team or he'll earn an uplift by getting the team promoted. Or a player will accept less cash in return for match time - not necessarily for any love of the game, but because he can build a reputation. Things will also depend on the age of the player - younger players will typically place less emphasis on current salary than older ones. Edited 6 July, 2011 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 6 July, 2011 Share Posted 6 July, 2011 Lallana seems to think Adkins is a big enough name. So does Lambert. So does whoever we end up signing this summer. its frustration of no signings that drive these type of threads. Whilst we hate it, we just need to be patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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