Ambition - where's the evidence?

[Thedelldays]

Of course. But the last thing I heard the plan was still being stuck to. If it doesn't go to plan then that's a failure really and we will have to look back and see what has gone wrong at the time. If it goes to plan then fantastic and I will be extremely happy. Lets hope that we sign the required players to continue with the original plan.

 

its on course now...but so many variables are at play..markus is dead, the family may sell, NC may quit...but right now, everything is on course...tomorrow, things could be very different...still, im sure you will have great delight in tearing the club, adkins, cortese a new arsehole...

[aintforever]

by who though..?

 

I definitely remember there being a thread ad most people said we needed 3 or 4.

[Thedelldays]

I definitely remember there being a thread ad most people said we needed 3 or 4.

 

right...did we tell the club this..?

I think we will get in 3 players..

[hypochondriac]

its on course now...but so many variables are at play..markus is dead, the family may sell, NC may quit...but right now, everything is on course...tomorrow, things could be very different...still, im sure you will have great delight in tearing the club, adkins, cortese a new arsehole...

 

Yes you keep thinking that I want Adkins and the club to fail if you like. Your utterly incorrect of course but if it makes you feel better then go ahead.

 

I think a lot of how on course we are will be to do with our acquisitions in this summers transfer market. I said it will be our most important period yet and if we get players in of lower quality than the ones who have (reportedly) turned us down for whatever reason, then there is a cause for concern there IMO. Whether that is the pulling power of the club, NC or NA I don't know but that would be concerning. Hopefully we will sign the sort of quality players we need though and that won't be an issue (and I shall say as much as well).

 

Just so you can hold me to it, if we sign Maynard, a quality CB and Cork or players of comparable quality, then I will be very pleased with our business in the window (although possibly we could do with backup for Chamberlain.)

[John B]

plans change.......not everything goes to plan...

 

You obviously have no knowledge of Project Management then

 

Where Projects are managed to produce the desired results and amended as you say when things go wrong.

 

However I doubt whether it is possible to plan to get to the PL without spending vast amounts of money it is just an aspiration like most of the clubs in the Championship.

 

But now Markhus has gone where is the money coming from

[Matthew Le God]

But now Markus has gone where is the money coming from

 

His estate.

[John B]

His estate.

 

That is rather simplistic

 

Who is going to give the authorization for money to be spent by SFC.

 

There may well be a budget which Cortese can spend but is he able to make significant purchases when the budget has been spent

 

I dont know it was easier when Markhus was around because he was involved emotionally with the club.

 

But money may begin to flow who knows - it is unlikely that we will get to the PL and stay there with a vast amount of money being spent

[Saint Fan CaM]

Too early to tell at the moment. If we've not spent some money to bring in 2-3 really decent players in key positions before August then yes, lack of ambition might be levelled at Cortese (the guy with the purse strings). Until that time, I think the evidence could possibly be weighted slightly in favour of the club, as we have not only not lost our best players, we're busy extending contract terms for some. So far the last two seasons have been great and I cannot see that position changing any time soon.

[Matthew Le God]

That is rather simplistic. Who is going to give the authorization for money to be spent by SFC.

 

Not simplistic, even the OS states that his estate is the owner. Okay we don't know the ins and outs of how it works but you should be reassured as Cortese has stated, "nothing has changed". He has done little so far to suggest he is a man that reneges on his statements.

 

I dont know it was easier when Markhus was around because he was involved emotionally with the club.

 

You have done it twice now, so not a typo. At least spell the late owner's name correctly.

 

It is unlikely that we will get to the PL and stay there with a vast amount of money being spent

 

Cortese's plan it seems is for the club to provide a lot of players for itself with large scale investment in the academy and training facilities.

 

In any case, many of the current Premier League teams don't spend huge amounts on top of the huge revenues they get for being in the league.

[shurlock]

 

 

 

This close season is beginning to look too much like last year.

 

Please specify what was wrong with last summer - I agree that it went tits up but it had little or nothing to do with our transfer activity? The foundations of the squad that won promotion were already in place and needed only minor refurbishment. If there was a problem which transmitted through to the team's slow start, it was NC and AP's relationship. Are you implying that NA has fallen out with NC?

 

The ultra loyal supporters on here (and loyalty is a great asset, but it can harm your eyesight) have been saying don't worry about the lack of signings, or missing out on players in June, they'll be announced on 1st July. Oh Yes?

 

Who said that there would be new signings on July 1? If anything, we were going to demonstrate our lack of ambition by losing Oxo on July 1. For nows, he's still with us

 

 

Don't worry about not bidding for Mackail-Smith, Saints have targetted someone better.

Oh Yes?

 

And who says we haven't. You think buying a footballer is like buying a toaster or something? Spunk £3m+ on a player and if you're not satisfied, bring him in along with your receipt and you'll get a full refund. Any investment of this size carries huge risks. Just as players are delaying on decisions to consider their options, so clubs are behaving equally rationally and surveying the market. Its not as if there is any shortage of targets and possible HCDAJFUs and we're only after a few players, not rebuilding a squad. To date, the market has moved very slowly. Are you recommending we panic buy or value quantity over quality (N.B. that was a criticism of Pards at West Ham and Charlton)?

 

Don't worry if no one comes in as the existing squad is good enough. Oh Yes?

 

Who has said that? Good enough for what? There is a general consensus that we need 2 or 3 players - a CB, CM and CF. Nobody is saying that our existing squad will coast to promotion; rather it is good enough to hold its own. Even if we stregthened with 2 or 3 players, there are no guarantees of anything. Do you disagree?

 

Adkins has consistently said he wants to strengthen the team with 2 or 3 quality players yet the only signings have been existing players signing longer contracts. This sounds very much like the things Pardew was saying last year, only he didn't make any significant improvements in the close season either. The constant in this is the Chairman so could it be that Cortese is saying one thing to his managers and the fans but is doing another?

 

Yes, and, to date, he's done nothing that is inconsistent with this statement. Comparing AP and NA, as has been pointed out ad nauseam, is boll*cks. Notwithstanding massive cash injections in the previous summer and January, AP didn't just sit on his hands, bemoaning the lack of funds. He signed 3 fullbacks/wingbacks and Guly (I wouldn't be surprised if Guly isn't one of the club's most expensive players and who knows about the players we tried but failed to sign). All four did more than warm the bench, making valuable contributions to our promotion push at different stages of the season.

 

Second, there were good reasons why 'weak' areas were not addressed - the lack of a right winger was a constant moan on here; yet we had Oxo up our sleeve. Don't rule out the possibility -really its no so far-fetched- that the club knew more about its own talent than the forum's sages who were besotted with some lad who played punt and chase from Reading reserves (that's slightly unkind on him). Finally and most obviously, the overall case for strengthening a squad brimming with L1 superstars and championship campaigners was pretty limited. The same cannot be said this summer; but surely this explains why NC and NA are willing to part with £3m+ for Sharp (who is just a fat lad from donny); or is this just a massive elaborate confidence trick?

 

If dedicated fans start to question the club's ambition you can be certain beyond doubt that any potential transfer target will do the same.

 

Which ones? The same panicky, antsy booboys who'll get on your back after 5mins - if so, I know where I would want to play.

 

To get the best out of a new player from Day 1 they need to be involved in pre-season but time for that is now very short so where is the evidence that we have any ambition for the coming year other than to play a season in the Championship?

 

Where is the evidence for this? Admittedly, it would be nice to have a player in the building and allow them to find their feet; but the idea that it will prevent us getting the best out of them is nonsense. When was Lambo signed? Or Jose?

 

The important thing is that any player we sign gets a proper preseason/fitness somewhere. Ultimtely the real gelling will only take place through competitive matches. And to repeat the benefits of getting a player in early always be traded off against the benefits of waiting for the right deal. Its not just NA/NC who are saying this...

 

No doubt, the OP wont engage in any discussion; but simply whine and repeat the same garbage, the next time a knee-jerk opportunity presents itself.

Edited 5 July, 2011 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

No doubt, the OP wont engage in any discussion; but simply whine and repeat the same garbage, the next time a knee-jerk opportunity presents itself.

 

Why do you have to reply in such an aggressive tone? Why not discuss the points and put a salient counter argument?

[shurlock]

Why do you have to reply in such an aggressive tone? Why not discuss the points and put a salient counter argument?

 

Which I've taken the time to do if you read the bold...

[The9]

I purposely didn't do a comprehensive list of how teams fared the following years (it wasn't my main goal). I brought Swansea and Forest up as well as Wigan because they were the first examples to spring to mind, not because they're the only ones - also think Hull, Stoke and Blackpool that were promoted to the prem within a few years of getting to the champ (though that raises the question of how long it takes before you start being seen as established championship side instead of a newly promoted one).

 

As you rightly point out, any balanced assessment would take into account the number of teams that having survived the first year, were then relegated Its unclear how far they outnumber promoted teams; though, for many reasons, they are of limited relevance to us (where are Crewe, Luton, Gillingham and Rotherham now?).

 

I guess my main takeaway is that there is considerable mobility in the championship. The consensus on the forum is that most would be happy with a top half finish - when you bear in mind that 15 out of 36 teams have made the top 10 in the last twelve seasons and many of those teams were smaller and less well-resourced than us, possibly we might be setting ourselves a slightly unambitious target? Shock horror, the SWF might be expecting too little

 

Fair enough.

 

FWIW, I think we're currently a top half side, I'd like us to be at least in Play-Off contention this season. Depending on injuries and a bit of luck, we might be. I certainly don't think we're in any danger of going down with the current squad.

[70's Mike]

i am a little surprised at the lack of transfer activity but as a saints fan have got used to it.

however i disagree with all this 5 year plan stuff, football is played on the pitch and i am sure all clubs have a 5 year plan which involves getting promotion from the division they are in.

fact is only 3 can suceed out of the Championship and to say we have 2 more years to get there is bonkers, it just does not work like that.

Every season every club in the championship wants to get to the promised land but it is done by results on the pitch not excel spreadsheets, there are two many variables, loss of form, injuries and bad luck.

we should be aiming for promotion now, this season

[dune]

There's no panic yet FFS.

[hypochondriac]

i am a little surprised at the lack of transfer activity but as a saints fan have got used to it.

however i disagree with all this 5 year plan stuff, football is played on the pitch and i am sure all clubs have a 5 year plan which involves getting promotion from the division they are in.

fact is only 3 can suceed out of the Championship and to say we have 2 more years to get there is bonkers, it just does not work like that.

Every season every club in the championship wants to get to the promised land but it is done by results on the pitch not excel spreadsheets, there are two many variables, loss of form, injuries and bad luck.

we should be aiming for promotion now, this season

 

I already apologized for that comment, I wasnt clear enough. We have three more years to get there according to the plan. If we do not get there in that time then according to the original plan we have failed. Simples.

[Thedelldays]

failed..then what...hound cortese out because he never quite achieved an ambitious plan he set himself..???

[70's Mike]

I already apologized for that comment, I wasnt clear enough. We have three more years to get there according to the plan. If we do not get there in that time then according to the original plan we have failed. Simples.

 

my post was not in response to anything you had posted.

i just do not think you can hide behind a 5 year plan, football just does not work like that, you need to aim to win every game not the games in 3 years time.

my fear is that NC is falling into the RL trap of we did ok last season so we will be ok next season.

like it or not the championship over 46 games is better than league one over 46 games

i would like to see the first 11 strengthed not the squad

[dune]

my fear is that NC is falling into the RL trap of we did ok last season so we will be ok next season.

 

Let's hope not. IMO we need 5 or 6 good signings. Last season we weren't that special and League 1 wasn't as difficult as the season before.

 

If we rest on our laurels we'll struggle next year.

[The Kraken]

i would like to see the first 11 strengthed not the squad

 

Very much agreed. And the only evidence I can see to hand (offer for Cork accepted, generous offer for Sharp rebuffed by the player) suggests this is exactly what the club are trying to do.

[hypochondriac]

failed..then what...hound cortese out because he never quite achieved an ambitious plan he set himself..???

 

You're full of incorrect assumptions today Jamie. We analyse what went wrong. One of those factors could well be the inability to strengthen this summer if we do not, but obviously we are dealing with hypotheticals here.

[revolution saint]

You're full of incorrect assumptions today Jamie. We analyse what went wrong. One of those factors could well be the inability to strengthen this summer if we do not, but obviously we are dealing with hypotheticals here.

 

To be fair, it's not just today.

[Thedelldays]

To be fair, it's not just today.

 

ah...the forum snob

[the stain]

This close season is beginning to look too much like last year.

 

Good. We got promoted last season, remember?

[revolution saint]

ah...the forum snob

 

Not really, you just spoil most threads and I like making you look a bit silly. Nothing snobbish about that - I think most people enjoy that.

[Thedelldays]

Not really, you just spoil most threads and I like making you look a bit silly. Nothing snobbish about that - I think most people enjoy that.

 

really....in your opinion...sadly for you...that count for nothing...much like mine

[NickG]

Perhaps this will become clearer when we see the state of the squad at the end of the window. Professor has summed up your reaction already though.

 

The talk was always prepare the squad last year for the championship, together with press conference we have a fair idea.

[Chez]

Below is historical data on how newly promoted L1 teams have done in the championship. As you can see, there is quite a spread: 15 out of 36 teams have finished in the top ten; 7 made the playoffs or were automatically promoted; while only 5 were relegated. On the whole, there is scope for optimism. If I had more time, I could the standings by attendance as a proxy for size - you can see that the larger teams have tended to do well (or if they had a poor first season like Forest quickly established themselves in the following years).

 

L1 2009/10 -championship position following year

 

Norwich -2 promoted

Leeds -7

Millwall -9

 

L1 2008/09

 

Leicester -6 went out on pens to Cardiff in playoff semi final

P'boro -24 (relegated)

Sc*nthorpe -20

 

L1 2007/08

 

Swansea -8 and finished 7th and playoff winners the next two seasons

N'Forest -19 but finished 3rd and 6th the next two seasons

Doncaster- 14

 

L1 2006/07

 

Sc*nthope -23 (relegated)

Bristol City -4 lost in the playoff final

Blackpool- 19

 

L1 2005/06

 

Southend -22 (relegated)

Colchester -10

Barnsley -20

 

L1 2004/05

 

Luton- 10

Hull- 18

Sheff Weds- 19

 

L1 2003/04

 

Plymouth - 17

QPR- 11

Brighton- 20

 

L1 2002/03

 

Wigan –7 promoted following season

Crewe -18

Cardiff -13

 

L1 2001/2002

 

Brighton -23 (relegated)

Reading -4 (lost in playoff semis)

Stoke City -21

 

L1 2000/2001

 

Millwall -4 (lost in the playoff semis)

Rotherham -19

Walsall- 21

 

L1 1999/2000

 

PNE -4 (lost in the playoff final)

Burnley -7

Gillingham -13

 

L1 1998/1999

 

Fulham -9 champions following season

Walsall -22 (relegated)

Man City -2 promoted

 

CHEERS. Looks like last year was very much a freak in terms of the success of the promoted teams and largely promotion leads either to one side making the play offs and the others struggling the following season. Lets hope we take the better of those two routes.

Edited 5 July, 2011 by Chez

[Dr Who?]

I will judge when the season starts, or at least during the rest of July. We could sign a couple of players in one day, and then another a few days later. I think the team are good enough for mid table as they are. I think 3 good signings could see us push for the playoffs. Lets not run before we can walk. Now watch the Norwich comments!! We could still do this of course, but to judge on July 5th really??!!

[NickG]

I will judge when the season starts, or at least during the rest of July. We could sign a couple of players in one day, and then another a few days later. I think the team are good enough for mid table as they are. I think 3 good signings could see us push for the playoffs. Lets not run before we can walk. Now watch the Norwich comments!! We could still do this of course, but to judge on July 5th really??!!

 

far too sensible!

[St_Tel49]

This close season is beginning to look too much like last year. The ultra loyal supporters on here (and loyalty is a great asset, but it can harm your eyesight) have been saying don't worry about the lack of signings, or missing out on players in June, they'll be announced on 1st July. Oh Yes? Don't worry about not bidding for Mackail-Smith, Saints have targetted someone better. Oh Yes? Don't worry if no one comes in as the existing squad is good enough. Oh Yes?

 

Adkins has consistently said he wants to strengthen the team with 2 or 3 quality players yet the only signings have been existing players signing longer contracts. This sounds very much like the things Pardew was saying last year, only he didn't make any significant improvements in the close season either. The constant in this is the Chairman so could it be that Cortese is saying one thing to his managers and the fans but is doing another?

 

If dedicated fans start to question the club's ambition you can be certain beyond doubt that any potential transfer target will do the same. To get the best out of a new player from Day 1 they need to be involved in pre-season but time for that is now very short so where is the evidence that we have any ambition for the coming year other than to play a season in the Championship?

1+1 = 3

[Dr Who?]

far too sensible!

 

IF, and I say IF we do not make good signings, and we are in the bottom 3 at Christmas then I will be one of the first to complain (well apart from the 'supporters'that are complaining already), but then again hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it!

[St_Tel49]

Its true that Adkins has virtually no recent track record in the transfer market and that unlike Poyet, Alladyce, MaClaren, Sven or Pardew, he's not an established name, either as a manager at high level, or as a player. That may be one of the factors that players consider when deciding if a particular club is where they want to be, or it may be that his management style is not good in meetings with players. On the other hand, he might be great with people and likeable but the decisions on transfers and pay might not be his to make. Adkins might be putting up targets that are not acceptable to the Chairtman. So is the question mark over Adkins, or is it over Cortese?

In many ways this post is a classic forum post. You start with a series of assertions/ hypotheses and then in one fell swoop with your final question turn your postulations into fact. IMHO there is no question mark over either. All the evidence suggests that Cortese will not allow himself to be dragooned into paying over the odds for a player. Wait until the end of August before you panic.

[gaz]

Even if we signed nobody, I'll be happy.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Not really, you just spoil most threads and I like making you look a bit silly. Nothing snobbish about that - I think most people enjoy that.

 

This

[Thedelldays]

This

 

hahaha...

[hypochondriac]

Which I've taken the time to do if you read the bold...

apologies Shurlock, I can't see that on my phone. Still no need for the insults.

[Secret Site Agent]

It is a very impressive stadium in a controversial location, partly sunk into the ground to reduce the visual impact on the South Downs. Has a modern arch, like Wembley and have to say that architecturally it looks better than the SMS from the outside. The capacity is only 22,000 but quite an increase on the 9,000 at Withdean. The design allows for expansion to 35,000. The cost is not just the stadium but will include work to the adjacent railway station and to the A27 that passes the site. Tony Bloom, the Chairman is personally a wealthy man but also a member of the Bloom family who have been connected with the Albion for very many years.

 

Can't comment on most of the above but works to the A27. Sorry, Rubbish, they arn't down to do anything to the A27. I know, because I am, (after a land issue is resolved)>

[sad saints fan]

even if we signed nobody, i'll be happy.

 

me to

[offix]

The Liebherr's spent £13m to purchase SFC. A further £13m to make up the losses after the first year in charge. It must be assumed the loss for last year was just as much if not more.

 

Excuse me if I'm not jumping up and down like a spolit brat demanding them spend another £15m on transfers and wages during the Summer.

 

Totally agree with this

[benjii]

Good. We got promoted last season, remember?

 

Bizarre isn't it?

 

Just can't understand the attitude of some of the moany old ****s on here.

[beatlesaint]

I was told back in May that we would be giving the current squad a fair chance at proving themselves in the Championship and would only be signing 2 or 3 players.

Pretty much the same thing would/will happen next season.

If we have not gone up this season or next then big money will be thrown in to the pot in order to gain promotion in the third season, or the 5th in the 5 year plan.

 

This came from Cortese at a dinner with club sponsors - wether that is aap3 or not I do not know - which was attended by a mate of my old man.

 

Of course when I posted it back in May I was shouted down.

 

Do it again if you like but thats what I have heard, it makes perfect sense to me and I have no reason to doubt it.

 

Patience is a virtue.

[PaulGilchrist_76]

If the club is able to sensibly afford a few new quality players to boost our chances of reaching the Premiership, where is the problem?

 

Why do some people on here become get so worked up about the possibility of improving the side.

 

The current squad got us out of League One and apart from Gobern, has remained intact. It is not being disbanded.

 

If we can afford to obtain a few of the more talented players available in the market, then why not pursue this option?

[eelpie]

I think a lot of how on course we are will be to do with our acquisitions in this summers transfer market. I said it will be our most important period yet and if we get players in of lower quality than the ones who have (reportedly) turned us down for whatever reason, then there is a cause for concern there IMO. Whether that is the pulling power of the club, NC or NA I don't know but that would be concerning. Hopefully we will sign the sort of quality players we need though and that won't be an issue (and I shall say as much as well).

 

I believe that the most significant signings will be made in January. For now Nigel and Nicola will be seeing how our present team does in the CCC. Of course if the right player is available at the right price this summer they will buy, but by January they/we will have a better idea which positions need strengthening. And there is always one player who surprises. Last year it was Oxo. It was in January in our first season in League 1 that we did most of our last major purchases.

[benjii]

It's also funny that a lot of the first to moan about so-called "lack of ambition" will also be the first in the queue for a good old moan about the evils of the Premier League and increased ticket prices....

[sir_fred]

Don't think that we shoul be that worried yet. The UEFA financial regulation will have a major impact on the end of this transfer window. The premiership(and champiionship) teams need to get rid of their unwanted stars before next season starts and this will start this transfer window. Man City has already started with freezing out Bridge, Bellamy and Santa Crux. I am not saying we will sign any of those but senior premiership players will become available chaeply.

[St_Tel49]

If the club is able to sensibly afford a few new quality players to boost our chances of reaching the Premiership, where is the problem?

 

Why do some people on here become get so worked up about the possibility of improving the side.

 

The current squad got us out of League One and apart from Gobern, has remained intact. It is not being disbanded.

 

If we can afford to obtain a few of the more talented players available in the market, then why not pursue this option?

 

A perfectly reasonable statement. I think that the issue that some of have is about the toys flying from the pram because we haven't actually signed anyone new yet - with quite a few weeks of the transfer window left to go.

[Itchen_block4]

1. The squad is pretty good already, it needs very little doing to it to be competitive.

 

2. The team spirit is great and improvements need to be careful and done in moderation to keep that up.

 

3. The best deals are to be had later in the window when players decide they want out.

 

4. Work is being done on additions and has been for some time. We don't want to be shafted by greedy clubs and agents by going in too soon.

 

5. There are loads of Championship quality players out there, it's not the end of the world if we miss out on some of them.

 

6. AOC will only be sold on our terms if he puts his foot down and demands to leave. It's unlikely IMO.

 

7. The club keeps its dealings quiet. There has probably been a lot of interest that hasn't been leaked to the press.

[Professor]

A perfectly reasonable statement. I think that the issue that some of have is about the toys flying from the pram because we haven't actually signed anyone new yet - with quite a few weeks of the transfer window left to go.

Massive overstatement. Questioning why the intention to make signings hasn't happened yet is not 'throwing toys out of pram', in fact to characterise measured comment as such is quite ludicrous.

 

What is being examined is why this has happened. On one hand there are people who trust the club explicitly and feel that if we have missed out on any targets it doesn't matter as either we don't need them or others are lined up for later in the summer. Others ask if we are losing out on signings such as Maynard, Sharp and Cork and if so, is there a reason that is under the club's control. To attack analysis from critical friends is to miss the point entirely.

[benjii]

Massive overstatement. Questioning why the intention to make signings hasn't happened yet is not 'throwing toys out of pram', in fact to characterise measured comment as such is quite ludicrous.

 

What is being examined is why this has happened. On one hand there are people who trust the club explicitly and feel that if we have missed out on any targets it doesn't matter as either we don't need them or others are lined up for later in the summer. Others ask if we are losing out on signings such as Maynard, Sharp and Cork and if so, is there a reason that is under the club's control. To attack analysis from critical friends is to miss the point entirely.

 

Would be better to try and analyse if we are "missing out" on Cork, Sharp and Maynard if:

 

1) we have a bid accepted for them; and

2) they sign for someone else

 

surely? Otherwise it just looks like premature, knee-jerk, unfathomable whiney old ********.

 

Sharp - we had a bid accepted. We decided not to sign him. The fact that the bid was north of £3m gives a decent answer to the question "where's the ambition?" Who else in the Champ has bid more than £3m this season?

 

We know we have had a bid accepted for Cork, so God knows how he figures in your musings.

 

Maynard - we have no idea if we even rate him or are remotely interested. I certainly doubt we're interested at £4m or whatever figure Bristol are bandying about at the moment. I expect any sensible suitor will wait until nearer the end of the window in the hope that his price comes down. That doesn't mean those suitors lack ambition. It means they aren't stupid.

 

So, yeah, it does look a bit like irrational toy throwing actually.