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Ambition - where's the evidence?


Professor

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Do you want to know where I stand? I'll tell you. In my mind the target date for the best of the best signings isn't this month or next. It isn't either January. It's January 2013. Lets aim for the best we can this season and look to build for promotion next season, which gives us time to build a TEAM, not 11 individuals.

 

Calm down and for christ sake, be patient. We have only just been promoted and our target for Premiership football still has a couple of years to run. The team we have now took two years to build, we aint going to build another one in two months.

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Do you want to know where I stand? I'll tell you. In my mind the target date for the best of the best signings isn't this month or next. It isn't either January. It's January 2013. Lets aim for the best we can this season and look to build for promotion next season, which gives us time to build a TEAM, not 11 individuals.

 

Calm down and for christ sake, be patient. We have only just been promoted and our target for Premiership football still has a couple of years to run. The team we have now took two years to build, we aint going to build another one in two months.

 

This

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That must be some stadium! :lol:

 

It is a very impressive stadium in a controversial location, partly sunk into the ground to reduce the visual impact on the South Downs. Has a modern arch, like Wembley and have to say that architecturally it looks better than the SMS from the outside. The capacity is only 22,000 but quite an increase on the 9,000 at Withdean. The design allows for expansion to 35,000. The cost is not just the stadium but will include work to the adjacent railway station and to the A27 that passes the site. Tony Bloom, the Chairman is personally a wealthy man but also a member of the Bloom family who have been connected with the Albion for very many years.

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It's even worse at Brighton. They lost the equivalent of Lallana and Lambert, only to bring in CMS. As much as I want players in early, it's costly and not practical if you are going for quality. We have an international scout now and far better bargains are to be had on the continent. For some of the real quality players we may have to wait until the window is about to close but there is no way anyone can doubt Saints ambition when you see what has been ploughed into the club and the intentions in the transfer market. We will get very good players for that sort of money if we are patient.

 

Disagree - Hoskins (for Murray) and Buckley (for Bennett) are replacements - some would say they are better than the originals. CMS is in addition to these two.

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This is such a good game it almost demands a thread of its own, and in fairness to Nick, his contributions add greatly to the fun of the forum. Anyway, lets see:-

 

No signings at all: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - showing confidence in the present squad

One signing of squad player: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - just the little extra support to come in handy

One signing of a quality player: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

Two signings: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

Three signings: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

1st September, Saints in bottom 6, NA sacked: NickG - NA was never up to it at this level and a great decision by NC.

 

hehehehehe. He is our resident Alistair Campbell, after all...

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Some contributions go beyond complacent to the realms of utter silliness on the planet Silly. This quote from an Adkins admirer is saying that Adkins is wrong. He is wrong to want 2 or 3 quality players in order to make a genuine challenge in the NpC and should be expected to win promotion with the squad from last year, unchanged.

 

we should always strive to improve.

 

I am not complacent about next season - reckon current squad would be top half - but should do what we can to improve

 

I have not predicted promotion for next season - this division is hard to predict

 

I admire Adkins, he was excellent last season and inspires confidence.

 

hope that clarifies things

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not too many current England U-21 international ply their trade outside the top flight.

 

Not all of the ones who recently played at St Marys were playing regularly for top level clubs though.

 

It was slightly over half of those who played, actually. And many of them were by no means first choice :Welbeck and Cleverley only played 25-ish matches, Tomkins played 19, Smalling played about 1/4 of Man U's games last season. Gibbs has only ever played 25 times for Arsenal in 4 seasons, and only made 7 appearances last season.

 

England Under-21 (4-4-2): Fielding; Mancienne, Smalling, Jones (Tomkins 83), Bertrand (Gibbs ht); Rose (Albrighton ht), Muamba (Cork ht), Rodwell, Henderson (Lansbury ht); Sturridge (Delfouneso 65), Welbeck (Cleverley ht).

Subs: Steele (gk), Wickham.

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This is such a good game it almost demands a thread of its own, and in fairness to Nick, his contributions add greatly to the fun of the forum. Anyway, lets see:-

 

No signings at all: decent squad, could do well, concerns over how forwards will step up

One signing of squad player: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - just the little extra support to come in handy

One signing of 1/2/3 quality players: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

1st September, Saints in bottom 6, NA sacked: NickG - won't happen,

 

As you are so keen on hearing from the more balanced and intelligent ;)

 

(did I hear an 8 year old girl giggling?)

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quote_icon.png Originally Posted by dubai_phil viewpost-right.png

Completely disagree with Prof.....

 

In the way he has assumed it is about lacking ambition.....

 

I just have a nagging concern that he has identified a lack of activity but has given it the wrong tag-line.

 

I get the feeling that we may actually be waiting for money to become available rather than lacking ambition. My personal view is that it seems that we need to sell to buy. No clear evidence for that of course, a smattering of occassional mumbles and grumbles is matched with a plethora of positive PR statements.

 

If you remove the ambition line and then speculate that maybe the "Family" have not released "a budget" YET for this coming season then the effect could be the same.

 

Think we will discover that this is about a mixture. I may have a part of it, reluctance to sign may be a part of it. Also, again MANY on here have forgotten that we have a structure where NA is NOT the man pursuing players - he will have identified areas he wants to strengthen and then given that "position list" to The back-office team led by Les Read to go find him suitable candidates.

I will stick with the I'm a bit twitchy as to whether we have the funds in place (TODAY) for the next season side of the fence. I think the ambition line is the wrong take on it.

 

That bit is bullshyte. I know someone who works with Les Read closely and whilst they wont divulge any information on signings etc it is clear that NA makes the decisions on who to sign based on budgets available. Others have an input but NA calls the shots.

 

They did hint that there is a vibe around the cub at the moment that things are starting to happen. Again when pressed the NC silence police threat meant lips were sealed much to my frustration.

 

That bit is not total bullshyte, that I can tell you from the man himself. If Adkins wanted too he could insist upon a certain player and I believe he would get his way. But in all of this he sees the whole set up as a team effort, allowing the team to do their job and for him to reap the rewards of their effort. One of the most surprising things going on at St Mary's is that there is a lot of talented and experienced people and they all get heard, without the ego's overriding anyone. The buck obviously stops with Adkins, but he uses the system rather than fight against it.

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blah blah blah i cannot even be bothered. you really are a pathetic excuse of an individual. I mean seriously, read that back to yourself and ask 'do i sound like a ****'?

 

Opinion, yeh great. We have differing opinions... i just offered mine, you are offering yours. Like I said, im not panicing yety as we haven't even started preseason. It is impossible to say how I will feel when the transfer window ends as I have no idea what will happen between now and then. So stop wetting yourself because there are still 2 months left to sign players, you hysterical tart

 

Yes you did express your opinion and I expressed mine. Unlike you though, I didn't get abusive or personal in my replies. It really says a lot about you as a poster.

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sounds like last year? umm...what followed? Promotion. Think that answers your concerns.

 

 

Some contributions go beyond complacent to the realms of utter silliness on the planet Silly. This quote from an Adkins admirer is saying that Adkins is wrong. He is wrong to want 2 or 3 quality players in order to make a genuine challenge in the NpC and should be expected to win promotion with the squad from last year, unchanged.

 

I would like to point out that NickG quote may not prove his point, but it proves mine.

 

Promotion next season, build this season.

 

That's enougfh ambition for me.

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Below is historical data on how newly promoted L1 teams have done in the championship. As you can see, there is quite a spread: 15 out of 36 teams have finished in the top ten; 7 made the playoffs or were automatically promoted; while only 5 were relegated. On the whole, there is scope for optimism. If I had more time, I could the standings by attendance as a proxy for size - you can see that the larger teams have tended to do well (or if they had a poor first season like Forest quickly established themselves in the following years).

 

Good stats but taking away your "playoff or promoted" category and matching like for like (as there are 3 promotion and 3 relegation places, as opposed to 6 promotion or playoff places and 3 relegation places) it does also show that only 2 teams went straight up again of those 36 League One promotees, and that's still far fewer than the 5 relegated.

 

And even using your "7 made the playoffs" and "5 went down" stat, if you bear in mind the proportion of teams in the Playoffs or better [there are twice as many playoff/promotion spots as relegation], that's actually showing a newly promoted team is more likely to go down (5 down from 3 available places) than make the playoffs (7 playoff/promoted from 6 available places).

 

You also have indicated where teams went up within a couple of years but not where they went down within a couple.

 

Examples of teams coming up, surviving the first year and then dropping back down being Gillingham, Rotherham, Crewe, Brighton, Luton and Colchester.

 

Mind you, none of this is particularly relevant to Saints in particular. Whilst it does show that teams are more likely to drop back down in the next 5 years than go up, based on the recent past, this is highly dependent on a large number of factors specific to the particular clubs. Ground size seems the most obvious criteria from that list of relegated sides, and we're fine on that front.

Edited by The9
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It is a very impressive stadium in a controversial location, partly sunk into the ground to reduce the visual impact on the South Downs. Has a modern arch, like Wembley and have to say that architecturally it looks better than the SMS from the outside. The capacity is only 22,000 but quite an increase on the 9,000 at Withdean. The design allows for expansion to 35,000. The cost is not just the stadium but will include work to the adjacent railway station and to the A27 that passes the site. Tony Bloom, the Chairman is personally a wealthy man but also a member of the Bloom family who have been connected with the Albion for very many years.

 

Yeah, but it didn't cost ninety quid.

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Good stats but taking away your "playoff or promoted" category and matching like for like (as there are 3 promotion and 3 relegation places, as opposed to 6 promotion or playoff places and 3 relegation places) it does also show that only 2 teams went straight up again of those 36 League One promotees, and that's still far fewer than the 5 relegated.

 

And even using your "7 made the playoffs" and "5 went down" stat, if you bear in mind the proportion of teams in the Playoffs or better [there are twice as many playoff/promotion spots as relegation], that's actually showing a newly promoted team is more likely to go down (5 down from 3 available places) than make the playoffs (7 playoff/promoted from 6 available places).

 

You also have indicated where teams went up within a couple of years but not where they went down within a couple.

 

Examples of teams coming up, surviving the first year and then dropping back down being Gillingham, Rotherham, Crewe, Brighton, Luton and Colchester.

 

Mind you, none of this is particularly relevant to Saints in particular. Whilst it does show that teams are more likely to drop back down in the next 5 years than go up, based on the recent past, this is highly dependent on a large number of factors specific to the particular clubs. Ground size seems the most obvious criteria from that list of relegated sides, and we're fine on that front.

 

I purposely didn't do a comprehensive list of how teams fared the following years (it wasn't my main goal). I brought Swansea and Forest up as well as Wigan because they were the first examples to spring to mind, not because they're the only ones - also think Hull, Stoke and Blackpool that were promoted to the prem within a few years of getting to the champ (though that raises the question of how long it takes before you start being seen as established championship side instead of a newly promoted one).

 

As you rightly point out, any balanced assessment would take into account the number of teams that having survived the first year, were then relegated Its unclear how far they outnumber promoted teams; though, for many reasons, they are of limited relevance to us (where are Crewe, Luton, Gillingham and Rotherham now?).

 

I guess my main takeaway is that there is considerable mobility in the championship. The consensus on the forum is that most would be happy with a top half finish - when you bear in mind that 15 out of 36 teams have made the top 10 in the last twelve seasons and many of those teams were smaller and less well-resourced than us, possibly we might be setting ourselves a slightly unambitious target? Shock horror, the SWF might be expecting too little :)

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57 days of the transfer window to go.

I hope we will make aquisitions of a high calibre for the NPC,and i hope sooner rather than later.

Only then will i judge the Ambition of the club,as only then i can judge the aspirations of the club for the coming season.

Dependant on those signings i can then also judge if Adkins can operate to a effective level in the transfer market.

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whatever

 

you think i care?

 

Well seeing as there is a topic called 'why this forum is dying' it would be nice to think that posters would be less insulting and more accepting of alternative views. I know you 'don't care' but it's pretty sad that we can't debate things sensibly without personal abuse.

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Well seeing as there is a topic called 'why this forum is dying' it would be nice to think that posters would be less insulting and more accepting of alternative views. I know you 'don't care' but it's pretty sad that we can't debate things sensibly without personal abuse.

 

Look sweetheart, everyone knows you are just a troll. I haven't actually personally attacked you like you say, but if you want me to it can be arranged. I called you a hysterical tart, which from what I can see, is the case and always has been. Your username is hypochoriac isn't it? basically a metaphor for a hysterical tart.

 

Trolling is pathetic, you are pathetic

 

Nice try trolly, and its bye from me

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Have just thought up a fun way of sorting this all out. Those that are happy the way things are going, turn up at SMS next season. Those that are not ,vote with your feet and stay away.

Count the number of arses sat on seats for the games and then declare which opinion has won out .

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This is such a good game it almost demands a thread of its own, and in fairness to Nick, his contributions add greatly to the fun of the forum. Anyway, lets see:-

 

No signings at all: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - showing confidence in the present squad

One signing of squad player: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - just the little extra support to come in handy

One signing of a quality player: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

Two signings: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

Three signings: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

1st September, Saints in bottom 6, NA sacked: NickG - NA was never up to it at this level and a great decision by NC.

 

Had to laugh at this - think you have read NickG pretty well, Prof

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I'm with the prof on this.

 

For the first time in a long it seems that we are going into a new season as a settled club on and off the pitch. With this in mind I was hoping that we would prepare early for what is going to be a tougher league by getting some new faces in quickly and settling them into the side asap.

 

The natural progression is to strengthen the side as you move up the leagues and you are sadly mistaken if you expect the same side that did well in L1 to have the same impact in a higher and tougher league especially when three of the sides that have just come down from the prem with still some of their prem players and a parachute payment to purchase others.

 

We are leaving it late yet again with pre season training already underway and this too me could mean yet another slow start.

 

Is this a lack of ambition or is it another reason. My worry is that there may be a ring of truth in some of the rumours flying about in the last few months that we do not have any funds. Are we in actual fact reliant on Oxo being sold to raise funds? perhaps that is the reason why we pulled out of the Sharp deal as the Oxo deal is not tied up.

 

I have not exactly reached the panic mode just yet but I am starting to get nervous about our lack of movement player wise.

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Look sweetheart, everyone knows you are just a troll. I haven't actually personally attacked you like you say, but if you want me to it can be arranged. I called you a hysterical tart, which from what I can see, is the case and always has been. Your username is hypochoriac isn't it? basically a metaphor for a hysterical tart.

 

Trolling is pathetic, you are pathetic

 

Nice try trolly, and its bye from me

 

Pathetic excuse of an individual? A starred word which I presume is swearing? Wetting yourself? Hysterical?

 

No need for these type of things. Lets just have a proper discussion where we can respect differing views. I will be happier because I'm not getting abuse, you will be happier because the forum will be a more worthwhile place to visit.

 

Agree?

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its quite sad isnt it..

 

start of a transfer window...just been promoted from division 3 and people are question ambition/the manager as we are not blowing people out of the water with money...

 

christ almighty.....

 

Hark at bloody Mother Teresa!

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Pathetic excuse of an individual? A starred word which I presume is swearing? Wetting yourself? Hysterical?

 

No need for these type of things. Lets just have a proper discussion where we can respect differing views. I will be happier because I'm not getting abuse, you will be happier because the forum will be a more worthwhile place to visit.

 

Agree?

there is no proper discussion with you.......you dont discuss, your mind is made...the club is shyt, we are skint, adkins is crap...im sure you will come out now and say you praise where its due...blah blah blah....you are a pr1ck....ban or infract me....even the pedant MLG is a more interesting poster than you....

 

why do you support saints..? you cant even pretend to like them/this current set up..so what is the point..?

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Its true that Adkins has virtually no recent track record in the transfer market and that unlike Poyet, Alladyce, MaClaren, Sven or Pardew, he's not an established name, either as a manager at high level, or as a player. That may be one of the factors that players consider when deciding if a particular club is where they want to be, or it may be that his management style is not good in meetings with players. On the other hand, he might be great with people and likeable but the decisions on transfers and pay might not be his to make. Adkins might be putting up targets that are not acceptable to the Chairtman. So is the question mark over Adkins, or is it over Cortese?

 

This is as far as I've got reading this, but I've highlighted the bits that give the game away. In short, your OP is so much conjecture, nothing much based on fact.

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This close season is beginning to look too much like last year. The ultra loyal supporters on here (and loyalty is a great asset, but it can harm your eyesight) have been saying don't worry about the lack of signings, or missing out on players in June, they'll be announced on 1st July. Oh Yes? Don't worry about not bidding for Mackail-Smith, Saints have targetted someone better. Oh Yes? Don't worry if no one comes in as the existing squad is good enough. Oh Yes?

 

Adkins has consistently said he wants to strengthen the team with 2 or 3 quality players yet the only signings have been existing players signing longer contracts. This sounds very much like the things Pardew was saying last year, only he didn't make any significant improvements in the close season either. The constant in this is the Chairman so could it be that Cortese is saying one thing to his managers and the fans but is doing another?

 

If dedicated fans start to question the club's ambition you can be certain beyond doubt that any potential transfer target will do the same. To get the best out of a new player from Day 1 they need to be involved in pre-season but time for that is now very short so where is the evidence that we have any ambition for the coming year other than to play a season in the Championship?

 

Wise words but you will have to put up with a load of abuse for expressing them from the 'rose tinted spectacle' brigade.

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This is such a good game it almost demands a thread of its own, and in fairness to Nick, his contributions add greatly to the fun of the forum. Anyway, lets see:-

 

No signings at all: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - showing confidence in the present squad

One signing of squad player: NickG - great decision by NA and NC - just the little extra support to come in handy

One signing of a quality player: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

Two signings: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

Three signings: NickG - was always going to happen and a great decision by NA and NC

1st September, Saints in bottom 6, NA sacked: NickG - NA was never up to it at this level and a great decision by NC.

 

Lol! That is exactly what I mean! :)

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there is no proper discussion with you.......you dont discuss, your mind is made...the club is shyt, we are skint, adkins is crap...im sure you will come out now and say you praise where its due...blah blah blah....you are a pr1ck....ban or infract me....even the pedant MLG is a more interesting poster than you....

 

why do you support saints..? you cant even pretend to like them/this current set up..so what is the point..?

 

I never say any of that. It's certainly a possibility that we have less financial support than last year but not a fact. Sad that you resort to insults.

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This is as far as I've got reading this, but I've highlighted the bits that give the game away. In short, your OP is so much conjecture, nothing much based on fact.

 

Then what is the point of a messageboard? If all we ever do is deal in facts? We don't have the answers so we look at the evidence and speculate. It's one of the things a messageboard is for.

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you sound like the "vocal minority" that forces the club to change their mind on hoddle....how ironic

 

Good point, but over the Hoddle/Sturrock decision the vocal minority got it wrong. Lets see if the vocal minority are right this time.

 

I would be happy if I was wrong BTW and the club have a successful season. This is going to be a big test for NA, I wish him the best.

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I think the posters that are most concerned, have confused the five year plan, competing at the top of the Prem and billionaire owners etc. with the fact that this can only be done by throwing huge amounts of money at it..... as in big name signings etc.

 

There is no doubt that money and significant money play an important part and I think we demonstrated that quite well in league one last season. But if you look at the type of players (Young with potential) we are going for, have bought in so far and grooming for the future (15 just taken on instead of the normal 5) then it looks like we are trying to do things a little differently. With two plus confirmed bids of over 3 million, money isnt the issue..... There are plenty of free agents that would be considered marquee signings that we could get for nothing, but maybe with only a couple of seasons. It really feels like they are building for the long term. That might mean it takes longer to get there, but without doubt more sustainable and lets not forget, we are only two years into the five year plan.

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I think the posters that are most concerned, have confused the five year plan, competing at the top of the Prem and billionaire owners etc. with the fact that this can only be done by throwing huge amounts of money at it..... as in big name signings etc.

 

There is no doubt that money and significant money play an important part and I think we demonstrated that quite well in league one last season. But if you look at the type of players (Young with potential) we are going for, have bought in so far and grooming for the future (15 just taken on instead of the normal 5) then it looks like we are trying to do things a little differently. With two plus confirmed bids of over 3 million, money isnt the issue..... There are plenty of free agents that would be considered marquee signings that we could get for nothing, but maybe with only a couple of seasons. It really feels like they are building for the long term. That might mean it takes longer to get there, but without doubt more sustainable and lets not forget, we are only two years into the five year plan.

 

Well we only have three seasons to get into the prem. That's not a long time!

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At the end of last season everyone was pretty much agreed that we need 3 or 4 decent signings to do well in the Championship.

 

Now after a bit of positive spin on the OS some people think we are going to storm the Championship playing Connolly up front.

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At the end of last season everyone was pretty much agreed that we need 3 or 4 decent signings to do well in the Championship.

 

Now after a bit of positive spin on the OS some people think we are going to storm the Championship playing Connolly up front.

 

by who though..?

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57 days of the transfer window to go.I hope we will make aquisitions of a high calibre for the NPC,and i hope sooner rather than later.

Only then will i judge the Ambition of the club,as only then i can judge the aspirations of the club for the coming season.

Dependant on those signings i can then also judge if Adkins can operate to a effective level in the transfer market.

 

Yes but is that another day gone now, since you posted? Geeez. I was relaxed with 57 days, but now only 56 left? Adkins out FFS

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so is Cortese tryung to get there too quickly or lacking ambition, its confusing!

 

think some would only be happy with Man City like approach.

 

Perhaps this will become clearer when we see the state of the squad at the end of the window. Professor has summed up your reaction already though.

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But ours was publically proclaimed. Presumably so that there was a marker whereby success and failure could be measured.

 

and then the owner died......most 5 year plans are publically proclaimed in their local areas....it gets the fans excited..

 

i have no doubt, that unless we are top half of the prem. come end of year 5, you will go nuts

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and then the owner died......most 5 year plans are publically proclaimed in their local areas....it gets the fans excited..

 

i have no doubt, that unless we are top half of the prem. come end of year 5, you will go nuts

 

Absolutely not true. I thought I heard an interview recently from NC saying that we were still working to the five year plan and that it was business as usual? If we are not in the premiership at the end of the five years then the original plan was a failure. Correct?

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Absolutely not true. I thought I heard an interview recently from NC saying that we were still working to the five year plan and that it was business as usual? If we are not in the premiership at the end of the five years then the original plan was a failure. Correct?

 

plans change.......not everything goes to plan...

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plans change.......not everything goes to plan...

 

Of course. But the last thing I heard the plan was still being stuck to. If it doesn't go to plan then that's a failure really and we will have to look back and see what has gone wrong at the time. If it goes to plan then fantastic and I will be extremely happy. Lets hope that we sign the required players to continue with the original plan.

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I've not read all 150 posts, sorry if this has been said but even if we hadn't signed anyone new by the a start of the season I would think it was sign of high ambition to have kept Oxo and others, in past years we wouldn't have done

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