Solar pannel hype and our taxes

[tony13579]

Hi, I want you all to educate your familys not to pay over the odds for this solar electric panels. The salesmen will tell you it pays back in 8-15 years. The numbers don't add up. My sister was quoted £12,000 to install them. The average paid back so far is.... £247 per installation.... so that would be 48 years pay back...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13296404

 

Solar panels by numbers

• 32,372 domestic solar installations so far

• Total payments made so far: £8m

• Payment to domestic consumers: 43.3p per kw/h

• Installed capacity of 86MW, equivalent to one small coal-fired power station.

• Solar panels only generate at full capacity between 10% and 30% of the time.

Source: Ofgem, Decc, Ernst & Young.

 

 

8 000 000 / 32 372 = 247.127147

 

Hants county council plans to spend £15,000,000

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/9108459.Solar_plan_gets_backing/

even with very generous feed in tariffs it will alerdly pay for it self in 15 years...

however these feed in tariffs are subsidised by our fuel bills of thos of us who cant afford to blow £12000 or would need to upgrade/renew the roof first. or the roof is facing the wrong way.

 

I am all for renewable energy , but this stuff simply does not cost in. The interest on the money costs about the same as you likly to be saving. If intrest rates rocket they you will be losing big time. £12000 borrowed at 4% costs £480 per year!

Edited 29 June, 2011 by tony13579

[LGTL]

I have a mate that fits them, he's swamped with work at the moment, and the average profit margin per job can be up to £3000!

[tony13579]

The sales man probobly gets a grand too

[dune]

It's not an economic thing.

 

It's a "look me at i'm saving the planet and thus climbing the social ladder in Liberal Elite circles thing". In Tory circles we are content with a pair of ornamental bay tree's in terracotta pots outside the front door. In benefit slobs circles a st georges flag draped from a bedroom window does the job.

[tony13579]

32,372 installation @ £12,000 = £388,464,000 wasted money

[ecuk268]

Got a friend who had solar panels for water heating (not electricity generation) installed about 12 years ago. He keeps detailed records and reckons it took about 10 years to recoup the cost.

 

His fuel consumption has dropped by between 20% and 25% so he's been in profit for 2 years. With the recent and future hikes in energy costs he's in a good position.

[Marsdinho]

I heard that having solar panels is a better investment than whacking the cash in a bank.

[Lighthouse]

From most of the accounts I've read it seems about 10-12 years is the break even point for having panels installed. On top of that, the panels are an asset and will add around £10,000 to the value of your property. It's certainly something I will consider when I get my arse on the property ladder. One question though, does anyone know if you can get a mortgage to cover the installation costs, since they will technically become a part of the property? In my view, it's just like having an extension built.

[Jones91]

I think it's a bright idea.

[JackanorySFC]

It's not an economic thing.

 

It's a "look me at i'm saving the planet and thus climbing the social ladder in Liberal Elite circles thing". In Tory circles we are content with a pair of ornamental bay tree's in terracotta pots outside the front door. In benefit slobs circles a st georges flag draped from a bedroom window does the job.

 

Might set up a business installing them if there's a £3k profit margin, would be amusing making sacks of cash a load of which I'll invest with my stock broker mates, made from tree hugging guardian readers!

 

Need to pay for my non existent private sector pension somehow...

Edited 29 June, 2011 by JackanorySFC
Because....

[Atticus Finch of Maycomb]

Saving the planet is a con.

 

The planet survived Tyrannosaurus rex, the king of beasts. It will survive us.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

You can't just take the raw figures and use them that way.They might have all been installed in the last month. Properly sited and installed payback time should be better than 10 years. it's tax-free and index-linked, but your money is tied up, for the payback time at least.

[Whitey Grandad]

Saving the planet is a con.

 

The planet survived Tyrannosaurus rex, the king of beasts. It will survive us.

 

It's me surviving I'm worried about, not the planet.

[suewhistle]

The figures in the OP are far from the mark: the return with the FIT is far higher than that p.a. if she actually got what she should for the money - a 3.something kW installation. I believe the payments are made quarterly. With the expansion of the market, economies of scale and competition margins will come right down. Just avoid the salesmen who have come from the double-glazing sector - remember how that used to be expensive and full of rip-off merchants. Get more than one quote and make sure you get quality panels and inverters.

 

You'll certainly get a better return than any cash ISA at the moment.

[aintforever]

There's no point saving the planet if it's not cost-effective.

[Whitey Grandad]

There's no point saving the planet if it's not cost-effective.

 

There's no point being cost-effective if the planet's uninhabitable. (I don't believe it ever will be, by the way).

[Block 18]

Read this . . .. there's room for thought!!!

Professor Ian Plimer (a member of the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Adelaide. He is also a joint member of the School of Civil, Environmental and Mining Engineering) could not have said it better!

 

If you've read his book you will agree, this is a good summary.

 

 

 

 

 

Are you sitting down?

 

 

Okay, here's the bombshell. The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet, all of you.

 

Of course you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to suppress, that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to live and grow, and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans, and all animal life.

 

I know, it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of abroad, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your 50 cents light bulbs with $10..00 light bulbs...well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four days.

 

The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, has totally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon. And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud any one time - EVERY DAY.

 

I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth. Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was active for over one year, think about it.

 

Of course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feely tree-hugging moment and mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized 800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keep happening, despite our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.

 

And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud but the fact of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our world for the next two to three years. And it happens every year.

 

Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon tax on you on the basis of the bogus ''human-caused'' climate change scenario.

 

Hey, isn't it interesting how they don't mention ''Global Warming'' any more, but just ''Climate Change'' - you know why? It's because the planet has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming bull artists got caught with their pants down.

 

And just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme (that whopping new tax)

Imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely nothing except make you poorer.. It won't stop any volcanoes from erupting, that's for sure.

 

But hey, relax, give the world a hug and have a nice day!

 

PS: I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets?

[slickmick]

• Electricity savings: typically c. £70/year. The Energy Saving Trust has cut its estimate of a typical home's annual savings to £70/year, as its research shows more electricity goes back to the grid than previously thought.
  
• Feed-in tariff: typically c. £1,030/year. This is the doozy: sign up now and for the next 25 years the Govt promises you will be paid a high feed-in tariff rate. In other words, it pays you to generate energy at more than treble what you normally pay to buy it from the grid.
  

Consider these gains over 25 years, and you'll see it can be extremely lucrative. There are now three routes to gain:

 

• Buy panels for £8,000-£14,000. If you have cash, on top of electricity savings the Govt's feed-in tariff scheme could pay back double your spend. Eg, a £12,000 system could net £25,750 over 25 years.
  Free panels, but you don't keep 'feed-in' tariff. If you're in England, Wales or, in a few cases, Scotland, some companies fit panels for free, but they then keep the big-money feed-in gain. You just keep the £70 electricity saving, though prices are predicted to rise massively over 20 years, so the saving could jump.
  
• Try free then buy. An interesting new option from E.on. You get free panels, but it lets you buy 'em out, you can do it at a reasonable price to gain the feed-in tariff.
  

[aintforever]

Read this . . .. there's room for thought!!!

Professor Ian Plimer (a member of th

 

 

Okay, here's the bombshell. The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet, all of you.

 

To be fair, the large fart I did the other day probably negated half of it, the effort put in has been very very poor.

[ribbo]

it's a great idea, especially for commercial property, unfortunatly there are a lot of people looking to get rich quick from it who we're probably laying patio's and fencing the previous month.

[Block 18]

it's a great idea, especially for commercial property, unfortunatly there are a lot of people looking to get rich quick from it who we're probably laying patio's and fencing the previous month.

 

Fortunatly its not that easy to get MCRS registered and speaking as a gas safe registered engineer you also need certain qualifications before you can legally install them

[Colinjb]

What you failed to factor in is the massive price hikes in energy that are kicking in.

 

Those things will soon pay back in about 11 months as a result.

[View From The Top]

Anything that helps reduce our reliance on imported gas and oil should be welcomed, be it green or not.

 

Energy security is right up there with terrorism as a danger to the UK.

[Thedelldays]

Anything that helps reduce our reliance on imported gas and oil should be welcomed, be it green or not.

 

Energy security is right up there with terrorism as a danger to the UK.

 

indeed...trouble is brewing again the south atlantic

[View From The Top]

indeed...trouble is brewing again the south atlantic

 

I understand that some extra green hat wearers are heading down for "training".

 

I'll assume some of you chaps are doing the same?

[Thedelldays]

I understand that some extra green hat wearers are heading down for "training".

 

I'll assume some of you chaps are doing the same?

not me but there is more of a naval presence down there...if we go down and be seen it is treated as a very provocative gesture....shame, quite fancy a trip to Rio

[Bath Saint]

Read this . . .. there's room for thought!!!

Professor Ian Plimer (a member of the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Adelaide. He is also a joint member of the School of Civil, Environmental and Mining Engineering) could not have said it better!

 

If you've read his book you will agree, this is a good summary.

 

Great if he got his facts right!

 

An extract from an articles in the Grauniad:

 

His [Pilmer's] book has been criticised by mainstream scientists as riddled with errors and misrepresentations of climate data. The first graph in the book purports to use temperature data from the Met Office's Hadley Centre and the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, but many of the data points are in the wrong place.

 

Another graph in the opening pages shows the global temperature record during the 20th century. Plimer does not give a source in the book but it looks remarkably similar to a graph used by Martin Durkin in his documentary The Great Global Warming Swindle. The programme was castigated for its inaccuracies by Ofcom and the graph was subsequently withdrawn by Durkin.

 

Potentially more damaging – because geoscience is his specialist field – is his claim that volcanoes are responsible for more CO2 emissions than human activities. The US Geological Survey says that humans in fact create 130 times the CO2 volcanoes do. Plimer now claims that the USGS figure only includes volcanoes on land, not undersea eruptions at mid-ocean ridges. But Dr Terrence Gerlach of the USGS said the 130 figure includes the underwater volcanoes.

 

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/04/climate-sceptics-public-opinion

[tony13579]

What you failed to factor in is the massive price hikes in energy that are kicking in.

 

Those things will soon pay back in about 11 months as a result.

So the poor will subsidise bonus payments to the rich...

 

also these payback calculations never seam to include the interest on the money used to buy the things. Mick Mouse accounting!

[dune]

I like the idea of geo-thermal power. Drill down deep enough and it's bloody hot.

[View From The Top]

I like the idea of geo-thermal power. Drill down deep enough and it's bloody hot.

 

That was (don't know if still is) used to heat the CC in Soton and it's about to be used in Newcastle.

[LGTL]

That was (don't know if still is) used to heat the CC in Soton and it's about to be used in Newcastle.

 

Still used in Soton I believe. I think it's base is that big red bulding opposite where JJB Sports is/was.

[tony13579]

"Southampton's district energy network cost £7m to develop and now has annual sales of 40GWh of heat, 22GWh of electricity and 8GWh of cooling, with 11 kilometres of heating and cooling pipes. It saves over 12,000 tonnes of carbon emissions per year and is 85 per cent efficient (compared to an average of about 38 per cent for centralised power station). This high level of efficiency won it a Queen's Award for Sustainable Development in 2001 and a National Energy Efficiency Award in 2006. So decentralised energy isn't only cheaper, cleaner and more secure, it also comes with a certain prestige..."

 

I don't know how much per kw this costs? Iceland produces all its heat and power from geothermal and because of the ease of access to the heat source it is very cheap.

[SuperMikey]

It would be good if it was actually sunny in the UK, solar panels might work then.

[Verbal]

Read this . . .. there's room for thought!!!

Professor Ian Plimer (a member of the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Adelaide. He is also a joint member of the School of Civil, Environmental and Mining Engineering) could not have said it better!

 

If you've read his book you will agree, this is a good summary.

 

 

 

 

 

Are you sitting down?

 

 

Okay, here's the bombshell. The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet, all of you.

 

Of course you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to suppress, that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to live and grow, and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans, and all animal life.

 

I know, it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of abroad, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your 50 cents light bulbs with $10..00 light bulbs...well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four days.

 

The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, has totally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon. And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud any one time - EVERY DAY.

 

I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth. Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was active for over one year, think about it.

 

Of course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feely tree-hugging moment and mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized 800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keep happening, despite our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.

 

And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud but the fact of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our world for the next two to three years. And it happens every year.

 

Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon tax on you on the basis of the bogus ''human-caused'' climate change scenario.

 

Hey, isn't it interesting how they don't mention ''Global Warming'' any more, but just ''Climate Change'' - you know why? It's because the planet has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming bull artists got caught with their pants down.

 

And just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme (that whopping new tax)

Imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely nothing except make you poorer.. It won't stop any volcanoes from erupting, that's for sure.

 

But hey, relax, give the world a hug and have a nice day!

 

PS: I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets?

 

Ah, the give-away, triumphant swagger of someone who's utterly, foolishly wrong. Read the link in Bath Saint's post as a starting point for exposing the absurdities of Plimer's arguments. Not only is he not a climate scientist - it seems he can't even add up.

 

As for volcanoes causing more CO2 emissions than humans 'in four days', climate scientists are still picking themselves up from the floor laughing at that one.

[View From The Top]

It would be good if it was actually sunny in the UK, solar panels might work then.

 

As I understand it the new generation ones work on daylight as opposed to direct sunlight.

[benjii]

The small-scale FIT tariff is not about saving the planet. It is a political sop; nothing more, nothing less.

 

If the motive was to "save the planet", or indeed to safeguard energy supply, the FIT for large scale installations would be higher (as these are far more cost effective and productive). For whatever political reason, the purpose of the scheme is purely about decentralising energy (or creating such a perception).

[SuperMikey]

As I understand it the new generation ones work on daylight as opposed to direct sunlight.

 

They're still not particularly efficient though. If it wasn't so taboo the whole country would be running on nuclear by now...

[suewhistle]

So the poor will subsidise bonus payments to the rich...

 

also these payback calculations never seam [sic] to include the interest on the money used to buy the things. Mick Mouse accounting!

 

Figures I've seen do, but although I'm not rich (10 year old car, no TV) I do have savings and the liquid ones are earning sod all. I rather like the idea of saying stuff the foreign energy exporters and stuff the big energy producers.

 

 

It would be good if it was actually sunny in the UK, solar panels might work then.

 

Actually, due to high temperatures in hot climates yields can be higher in the UK - look at this month's PBO or Sailing Today (can't remember which).