Teachers training days

[LGTL]

Teachers should be paid more and get decent perks. Then we would have better ones and we would, gradually, have a better class of people throughout society.

 

In my experience, teaching is not remotely aspirational for the brightest students. The people I know who went into teaching were either: a) an embarrassment to higher education and should never have been allowed to set foot inside a "uni", or b) people who got a Desmond and couldn't get the better job they had actually wanted.

 

Teaching needs to be made attractive to the best performers.

 

One of the better ideas that Gove has put forward is an increased importance upon academic acheivement in order to teach. I'd make it a 2:1 or above profession, as regardless of course or Uni that does at least require some amount of effort. It is increasingly becoming a Masters profession too.

 

However, being an extremely bright student doesn't mean they'd come close to being a good teacher, and government recognise this otherwise they'd just be done with it and offer £60k a year to only those with 1st's from Russell Group Uni's. That would ultimately mean the brightest would teach, but there's a reason why no governemnt would do that.

[bridge too far]

It is a tad amusing that when it suits , its up to Gove but when things are to be changed that are not so palatable its lets walk out on strike.

I have been self employed all my working life and so have a different slant on perks and holidays. I get no paid leave, I dont get paid if i dont work or go on holiday.So forgive me if i dont seem to have any sympathy.

I have a rubbish pension as I did not contribute a large slice of my income into one, no index linked final salalry stuff for us

 

That's being a tad economical with the truth, I think. I, too, have been self-employed (as a dance teacher who didn't teach during school holidays) and I priced my fees to allow for sickness / holidays. So I drew down a set amount each month from my earnings.

[Saint Mikey]

Barney - to clear up a couple of points.

 

1. Baker Days are planned a year in advance at least

2. The Heads and Governors have no say in this - it's up to the local education authority.

 

This is wrong. As stated earlier in this thread, my old man is a Headteacher in Southampton. He has complete jurisdiction as to when these go ahead...

[Gemmel]

This is wrong. As stated earlier in this thread, my old man is a Headteacher in Southampton. He has complete jurisdiction as to when these go ahead...

 

As long as it is within the stipulated guidelines of "Notice Given"

[OldNick]

That's being a tad economical with the truth, I think. I, too, have been self-employed (as a dance teacher who didn't teach during school holidays) and I priced my fees to allow for sickness / holidays. So I drew down a set amount each month from my earnings.

Well you were lucky to have set amounts of guarenteed pupils to your lessons to be able to plan that way.

I earn over a year what i earn and can't plan and add on for holidays. If you were charging £50 a lesson and had full classes that was the going rate, not with an extra added on.

Your pupils would not have paid over the going rate against your competition. So you were not really adding on, you just had not read the market price correctly and so got lucky to have the premium.

If a dance class was open next door and was charging £30 you would not have been able to charge £50 as market forces would dictate.

[Dimond Geezer]

If there's all this jealousy about teacher's holidays, there's nothing stopping the moaners re-training as teachers and then they could sample the delights of facing 30 bored disruptive teenagers who don't want to be there and whose parents don't give a toss about their education.

 

 

I have a mate whose wife is retraining, I believe she is 3 years into a 5 year course, in those 3 years she has not had a penny of income, they barely get by on his salary alone which is around the average salary level. For those of us with families, mortgages, etc simply retraining is not a viable option. My family couldn't get by for 5 years on my wife salary alone.

 

With regards to the highlighted bit, I don't believe for one moment that the entire class are bored & disruptive, sure there will be some, but if it is the whole class that brings into question the quality of the teacher, who I believe is there to inspire, not just teach. I would suggest retraining to a profession more suited to your skills if teaching is becoming a chore (I assume you are a teacher).

[bridge too far]

Well you were lucky to have set amounts of guarenteed pupils to your lessons to be able to plan that way.

I earn over a year what i earn and can't plan and add on for holidays. If you were charging £50 a lesson and had full classes that was the going rate, not with an extra added on.

Your pupils would not have paid over the going rate against your competition. So you were not really adding on, you just had not read the market price correctly and so got lucky to have the premium.

If a dance class was open next door and was charging £30 you would not have been able to charge £50 as market forces would dictate.

 

You know nothing about it Nick - that's apparent! My classes were run on a pay-as-you-go basis so it was up to me to provide what people wanted. I have to say I was generally oversubscribed and had to turn people away. But there was no guarantee about how many would turn up to each class - none at all.

 

As for competition, well George Best's ex-wife tried to compete, using her name as a draw. It worked for two weeks max and then they came flooding back to me. We'd both charged to market rate for aerobics classes.

 

From my earnings I took what I needed for my share of the family running costs and banked the rest for rainy days (or snowy ones if people couldn't get to my classes - I still had to pay the rent) and for times when I wasn't teaching, during holidays. I didn't miss a single class in 10 years, even teaching for a week with my leg in plaster following a knee op!

[OldNick]

You know nothing about it Nick - that's apparent! My classes were run on a pay-as-you-go basis so it was up to me to provide what people wanted. I have to say I was generally oversubscribed and had to turn people away. But there was no guarantee about how many would turn up to each class - none at all.

 

As for competition, well George Best's ex-wife tried to compete, using her name as a draw. It worked for two weeks max and then they came flooding back to me. We'd both charged to market rate for aerobics classes.

 

From my earnings I took what I needed for my share of the family running costs and banked the rest for rainy days (or snowy ones if people couldn't get to my classes - I still had to pay the rent) and for times when I wasn't teaching, during holidays. I didn't miss a single class in 10 years, even teaching for a week with my leg in plaster following a knee op!

Interestingly would you have gone to work had you been on the public services payroll?

You come across yet again as patronising, Im amazed you managed to have any customers Lol

You seem not to want to understand that you cannot charge more than the going rate just to cover your holidays /sick pay.

Your product was worth the rate you were charging and had you not taken any holidays or sick days you would have earned those extra weeks money at that full rate.

If your factoring of holiday pay etc made you too expensive, you would not have had full classes and would have had to lower prices to compete.

I do not need to be reminded about saving for a rainy day, that is something I always am aware of. I have been S/E for 36 years and so know it feels not to have the security of a guaranteed salary and pension.

[bridge too far]

But Nick - I DID charge the market rate, not an inflated sum.

 

You call me patronising - why can't you accept that I did it, and did it successfully!

 

I worked out my expenses and trimmed my living costs to ensure that I had enough to live on should there have been a fall in attendance / illness / holidays etc. I also paid into a private pension out of my earnings although that stopped when I stopped teaching. Had my classes been too expensive, people simply would have gone elsewhere. The fact that my classes were oversubscribed shows that I got the price and class content right, I think. I wouldn't have been any better off teaching in the holidays as most of my students were mothers, so attendances would have been down, and I would have had to pay for child care for my own children.

 

I then went back to college (when I got too old to teach as I actually did the moves I was teaching and, like most dancers, started to suffer with arthritis). From college I went into the NHS for 20 years and only had time off when my father had a stroke (3 days compassionate leave) and then for his funeral.

 

So - to recap - me telling you how it was for me is patronising? Jeez!

[ecuk268]

I have a mate whose wife is retraining, I believe she is 3 years into a 5 year course, in those 3 years she has not had a penny of income, they barely get by on his salary alone which is around the average salary level. For those of us with families, mortgages, etc simply retraining is not a viable option. My family couldn't get by for 5 years on my wife salary alone.

 

With regards to the highlighted bit, I don't believe for one moment that the entire class are bored & disruptive, sure there will be some, but if it is the whole class that brings into question the quality of the teacher, who I believe is there to inspire, not just teach. I would suggest retraining to a profession more suited to your skills if teaching is becoming a chore (I assume you are a teacher).

 

No, I'm definitely not a teacher but I am married to one. If you think that large classes of bored teenagers are a myth, I suggest you visit some schools in "difficult" areas.

 

Mrs ecuk268 has taught infants for decades in a variety of schools. When you've got a class of 25 -30 it only takes 2 or 3 disruptive ones to ruin it for everyone. Many people think that infants are not a problem but some of the ones coming into reception classes have no social skills, have no experience of books or even of sitting still and listening for 15 minutes. The differences in the home environment can make a huge difference to the progress that children make. There's one school in Southampton that is a national leader in infant education. Where is it? ---- Shirley Warren, but it has very skilled and dedicated staff.

Edited 28 June, 2011 by ecuk268

[The Cat]

Many people think that infants are not a problem but some of the ones coming into reception classes have no social skills, have no experience of books or even of sitting still and listening for 15 minutes. The differences in the home environment can make a huge difference to the progress that children make. There's one school in Southampton that is a national leader in infant education. Where is it? ---- Shirley Warren, but it has very skilled and dedicated staff.

 

My other half teaches reception at Sholing Infants. She has had children starting at the school still wearing nappies, who can't count at all and struggle to form sentences. This is not down to any special needs, more that their parents just don't give a crap about interacting with their children in any way apart from turning on the tv for them.

 

As for striking, well I support them. Teachers are underpaid and overworked in this country and not valued highly enough by society in general. My other half spends pretty much every evening working once the kids are in bed and frequently goes into school during the holidays.

[OldNick]

But Nick - I DID charge the market rate, not an inflated sum.

 

You call me patronising - why can't you accept that I did it, and did it successfully!

 

I worked out my expenses and trimmed my living costs to ensure that I had enough to live on should there have been a fall in attendance / illness / holidays etc. I also paid into a private pension out of my earnings although that stopped when I stopped teaching. Had my classes been too expensive, people simply would have gone elsewhere. The fact that my classes were oversubscribed shows that I got the price and class content right, I think. I wouldn't have been any better off teaching in the holidays as most of my students were mothers, so attendances would have been down, and I would have had to pay for child care for my own children.

 

I then went back to college (when I got too old to teach as I actually did the moves I was teaching and, like most dancers, started to suffer with arthritis). From college I went into the NHS for 20 years and only had time off when my father had a stroke (3 days compassionate leave) and then for his funeral.

 

So - to recap - me telling you how it was for me is patronising? Jeez!

But you charged the going rate, not adding on a premium to cover the holidays. If you had added 20% you may have struggled.

In the world of S/E you cannot add on holiday /sickness pay if your competitors do not. If the going rate is 50 , unless you offer a better product nobody will pay 60 if they can get the same for 50. You were just absorbing the quiet periods , not adding it on.

[bridge too far]

But you charged the going rate, not adding on a premium to cover the holidays. If you had added 20% you may have struggled.

In the world of S/E you cannot add on holiday /sickness pay if your competitors do not. If the going rate is 50 , unless you offer a better product nobody will pay 60 if they can get the same for 50. You were just absorbing the quiet periods , not adding it on.

 

Oh dear

 

I charged the market rate. From that rate, I was able to work out how much income I'd receive per class = per month = per year. In the 80s / early 90s I taught 9 classes a week. Each class on average had 60 students. Each student paid £5 per class (the market rate). You do the maths.

 

I divided up the annual take by 12 and used that amount per month to pay what I had to pay and banked the rest. Then, in the weeks when I wasn't teaching or it was holiday time, I'd have reserves in the bank to keep me going.

 

Not rocket science, really.

 

But feel free to advise me on a business you know nothing about. What line of business are you in? Can I offer you some free advice? No? But you carry on patronising me about how I should have run my business in the past. Because, with that income 20 years ago, I was obviously doing something wrong

[Johnny Bognor]

Out of interest, do unions consult the long term weather forecasts when it comes to choosing when to strike?

 

Also, is it just me who hopes it ****ing rains on thursday?

[Jez]

My missus is a teacher. She works virtually every night when she gets home, and usually weekends too, various hours, and often falls alseep literally whilst working. Her holidays are well deserved, as I am sure many teachers are.

 

I would not want to be a teacher myself because of the long working hours and because of the lack of respect from the sh1tty little secondary school kids.

The holidays might appeal, but I don't chose a job based on the amount of holiday available.

 

And for Thursday, her Union isn't striking so only certain years are coming to school, so she only has a couple of classes, and it'll be dvd time... waste of a day all round for her and the kids coming in then!

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Training. Hmm. I get up at 5am to travel an hour twice a month to do my training 7am - 9am. Then I have a full days work mostly getting back home about 9pm. And if I don't deliver value for money and win new clients, I don't get paid. Then again I work in the private sector so most of the public sector will think I am talking a different language.

[LGTL]

All this "my dad is bigger then your dad" by the Private Sector is nauseating.

 

It is perhaps no conincidence on this thread that it's only teachers, and partners of teachers, who appreciate just how hard they work. But everyone else knows best of course, with their years of teaching experience.

[OldNick]

Oh dear

 

I charged the market rate. From that rate, I was able to work out how much income I'd receive per class = per month = per year. In the 80s / early 90s I taught 9 classes a week. Each class on average had 60 students. Each student paid £5 per class (the market rate). You do the maths.

 

I divided up the annual take by 12 and used that amount per month to pay what I had to pay and banked the rest. Then, in the weeks when I wasn't teaching or it was holiday time, I'd have reserves in the bank to keep me going.

 

Not rocket science, really.

 

But feel free to advise me on a business you know nothing about. What line of business are you in? Can I offer you some free advice? No? But you carry on patronising me about how I should have run my business in the past. Because, with that income 20 years ago, I was obviously doing something wrong

well you said you added on extra to pay for holidays and sick pay , when you just adsorbed it. You say you didn't know how many customers you were likely to have so it was impossible to add on extra charges to cover for the days you would be on holiday or sick.

You just made provisions to set aside some money for a rainy day, budgeting.

That is not the same as getting the market rate and then adding on the extra for days when you were not working.

If you were salaried you get 70k including holiday pay, if you are self employed you earn what you earn and then when not working you get SFA. (of course if you have many staff the business should still make its way)

 

I didnt notice if you answered my other question, whether you would have still gone to work in plaster if you had been working in the Public sector and were still going to get paid.

[bridge too far]

I obviously didn't state my case clearly. It was a case of 'this is what I'm likely to get, take out what's needed and bank the rest for a rainy day'. It's called market research, or developing a business strategy - call it what you will. It never was a case of 'this is what I need to earn so I'll price my classes to achieve what I need'. That's plain stupid. If it looked like my income was likely to fall, then my expenditure would have reduce accordingly. Luckily it never did.

 

How do I know if I would have gone to work in the public sector with my leg in plaster? Hypothetical question. How long is a piece of string? If my office was easily accessible, yes I would have. If it wasn't, then I would have worked from home as I often did at weekends and evenings anyway. Building site visits might have been a bit of problem though.

[Dimond Geezer]

Oh dear

 

I charged the market rate. From that rate, I was able to work out how much income I'd receive per class = per month = per year. In the 80s / early 90s I taught 9 classes a week. Each class on average had 60 students. Each student paid £5 per class (the market rate). You do the maths.

 

 

 

Wow. Assuming you worked 40 weeks per year, thats £108,000 pa. That's some salary at todays prices, let alone the 80s & 90s.

[bridge too far]

Wow. Assuming you worked 40 weeks per year, thats £108,000 pa. That's some salary at todays prices, let alone the 80s & 90s./QUOTE]

 

True - but that was gross and obviously I had expenses such as insurances (ridiculously high PII) and hall rents, but it took it's toll. I literally wore myself out and I'm paying the price physically now But I was lucky - I was in at the start of the dance fitness craze and then left as it was beginning to fade (that wasn't what led to me leaving though - I decided I wanted to go back to college and pursue a career in the public sector).

 

But this is going off track. I was just trying to point out that self-employed people have to make the same calculations as employed people i.e. this is what I'm going to earn in the year and this is what I have to spend after my necessary expenditure has been accounted for. Of course there are more risks being self-employed but then there are advantages such as off-setting tax, paying dividends instead of salary for tax purposes etc. etc.

 

Swings and roundabouts.

[Ken Tone]

Seems almost a shame to interrupt all the prejudices here with some facts, but:

 

1. The 5 training days were introduced by Kenneth Baker, in addition to the days school teachers were previously required to be at their place of work. Thus in effect they were taken from school teachers holidays, which are now 5 days shorter than they were before.

 

2. The dates of training days are set by the school itself. The local authority agrees with the unions the dates of 195 term days a year. The school then chooses which 5 of those not to teach. Most schools do place some of those days at the beginning or end of a holiday period. They could do that with all 5 if they chose, but prefer to put some in the middle of the term. Parents may well have a legitimate complaint if a school puts all 5 in the middle of a term. (That bit is opinion, not fact!) They are supposed to give at least the year's notice of such closure days.

 

3. Many teachers are not on school teacher terms and conditions. FE college staff for example mostly have 35 days leave per year, still quite generous by private sector standards, but much less than school teachers receive. But they also cannot usually take leave during term time, so miss out on off peak holidays and cannot take odd leave days off for eg Wimbledon, friends' weddings, away evening Saints games, etc

 

4. Legally all employees in this country are entitled to a minimum of 28 days leave. The sneaky bit is whether the 8 bank holidays are included in that, or extra to that.

 

5. Virtually every profession requires work outside of the time spent in the office/classroom/whatever. To think of teachers working 9-4 in term time only is like imagining all bank workers stop when the doors close to the public, or vicars only work on a Sunday. But it is a two-edged sword ... as some posters have already said many professions do involve evening and weekend work, not just teaching.

 

6. By the way, private schools generally have considerably shorter terms and longer holidays than state ones. It always amazes me that some parents will pay a fortune to see their children taught for less time by staff who don't even have to be qualified, and indeed frequently aren't qualified.

[um pahars]

Training. Hmm. I get up at 5am to travel an hour twice a month to do my training 7am - 9am. Then I have a full days work mostly getting back home about 9pm. And if I don't deliver value for money and win new clients, I don't get paid. Then again I work in the private sector so most of the public sector will think I am talking a different language.

 

For some of my training days we were regularly flown up to Leeds (BA at over £200, maybe even £300), put up in decent hotels (£100+ a night), taxis to and from (£40), slap up meals each night (£30 a night), allowed a bit of booze (£10), then treated to slap up buffets and snacks during the day (all of which cost a fortune). Throw in the actual cost of the training and you could have built a small school on the amount we used to pay (we never really learnt much either).

 

And we certainly didn't do this on our days off!!!!!!!

 

Compared to what I've seen in the Public Sector, I certainly which one I think was more profligate and watseful.

[OldNick]

For some of my training days we were regularly flown up to Leeds (BA at over £200, maybe even £300), put up in decent hotels (£100+ a night), taxis to and from (£40), slap up meals each night (£30 a night), allowed a bit of booze (£10), then treated to slap up buffets and snacks during the day (all of which cost a fortune). Throw in the actual cost of the training and you could have built a small school on the amount we used to pay (we never really learnt much either).

 

And we certainly didn't do this on our days off!!!!!!!

 

Compared to what I've seen in the Public Sector, I certainly which one I think was more profligate and watseful.

I agree that we would indirectly be paying for some of these things as customers, but have a choice whether to support that company. Paying through taxation for waste does irk and we have no choice in what it is spent on.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Teachers should be paid more and get decent perks. Then we would have better ones and we would, gradually, have a better class of people throughout society.

 

In my experience, teaching is not remotely aspirational for the brightest students. The people I know who went into teaching were either: a) an embarrassment to higher education and should never have been allowed to set foot inside a "uni", or b) people who got a Desmond and couldn't get the better job they had actually wanted.

 

Teaching needs to be made attractive to the best performers.

 

You won't hear teachers moaning about that I assure you. Teaching should be a profession where you need a minimum of a 2:1 with a Masters degree or a 1:1 in either the subject you graduated in or education. But as you say, in order to do this, they would need to raise the pay as most graduates would much rather sacrifice the holiday for an extra ten grand they could earn in the private sector.

[benjii]

Seems almost a shame to interrupt all the prejudices here with some facts, but:

 

1. The 5 training days were introduced by Kenneth Baker, in addition to the days school teachers were previously required to be at their place of work. Thus in effect they were taken from school teachers holidays, which are now 5 days shorter than they were before.

 

2. The dates of training days are set by the school itself. The local authority agrees with the unions the dates of 195 term days a year. The school then chooses which 5 of those not to teach. Most schools do place some of those days at the beginning or end of a holiday period. They could do that with all 5 if they chose, but prefer to put some in the middle of the term. Parents may well have a legitimate complaint if a school puts all 5 in the middle of a term. (That bit is opinion, not fact!) They are supposed to give at least the year's notice of such closure days.

 

3. Many teachers are not on school teacher terms and conditions. FE college staff for example mostly have 35 days leave per year, still quite generous by private sector standards, but much less than school teachers receive. But they also cannot usually take leave during term time, so miss out on off peak holidays and cannot take odd leave days off for eg Wimbledon, friends' weddings, away evening Saints games, etc

 

4. Legally all employees in this country are entitled to a minimum of 28 days leave. The sneaky bit is whether the 8 bank holidays are included in that, or extra to that.

 

5. Virtually every profession requires work outside of the time spent in the office/classroom/whatever. To think of teachers working 9-4 in term time only is like imagining all bank workers stop when the doors close to the public, or vicars only work on a Sunday. But it is a two-edged sword ... as some posters have already said many professions do involve evening and weekend work, not just teaching.

 

6. By the way, private schools generally have considerably shorter terms and longer holidays than state ones. It always amazes me that some parents will pay a fortune to see their children taught for less time by staff who don't even have to be qualified, and indeed frequently aren't qualified.

 

Yeah, but private schools are much better.

[bridge too far]

Yeah, but private schools are much better.

 

At what?

[View From The Top]

At what?

 

Buggery.

[sotonjoe]

This is a serious question; How much holiday do teachers get and couldn't these "training days" be used in those. Instead of pupils coming back from holidays a day late, couldn't teachers come back a day earlier and have their training days then?

 

 

I've caught you. That's a step too far. The comment in blold proves you are clearly a wind up merchant. Well done though ... I think you fooled a few people.

[View From The Top]

You won't hear teachers moaning about that I assure you. Teaching should be a profession where you need a minimum of a 2:1 with a Masters degree or a 1:1 in either the subject you graduated in or education. But as you say, in order to do this, they would need to raise the pay as most graduates would much rather sacrifice the holiday for an extra ten grand they could earn in the private sector.

 

Spot on. None of my staff have less than a 2:1, a number have 1:1, Masters and even PhDs.

 

I wouldn't consider a anyone with less than a 2:1 or anyone with less than 4 consecutive "2s" in the observations against OFSTED standards but our reputation means that we can demand that.

 

The local secondary schools struggle to get anyone to even apply for a maths job. My wife's secondary school, a rough Black Country number, has 3 maths jobs waiting to be filled and they've not had one application.

 

According to the Ed Dept at Keele a maths graduate with a 2:1 or above can expect to earn around £30k with in 5 years of graduation if teaching and £55k if the private sector.

 

£30k working with sh*ts in a tough secondary or £55k in financial services?

[the stain]

dune would sh*t his silly pants if he had to work in a tough Secondary School.

[Atticus Finch of Maycomb]

i am a college teacher and today a student beat me up. if i dont go in tomorrow i dont get paid.

 

the police arrested him, as they always do when he beats someone up. tomorrow he will be back at the college and i will be expected to teach him again.

 

teaching sucks.

[um pahars]

I agree that we would indirectly be paying for some of these things as customers, but have a choice whether to support that company. Paying through taxation for waste does irk and we have no choice in what it is spent on.

 

I remember being really annoyed when I found out my pension pot had shares in the very same company that was happy to p155 it up the wall on jollies, around the world training courses and profligacy & salaries you would never see in the Public Sector.

[View From The Top]

dune would sh*t his silly pants if he had to work in a tough Secondary School.

 

Would have thought the kids too old for him.

[dune]

Would have thought the kids too old for him.

 

What a role model the kids have with the likes of you:

 

 

The GTC said Mr Walker's behaviour was "fundamentally incompatible" with being a teacher.

 

Anne Madden, from the GTC, said: "This was a serious public order offence and it is not appropriate for someone engaged in organising such violence to be involved in teaching children."

[the stain]

Get a grip Dune. VFTT has more decency in his little finger than you have in your entire being. If I had the choice of who I would want to teach my children, I know where my money would be.

[Atticus Finch of Maycomb]

dune is such a c*nt.

 

dune drags up VFTT's past once again, and still goes unpunished for publicly mocking a disabled MP.

 

Where is Boj to come along and 'have a joke' with dune on this thread now?

[dune]

dune drags up VFTT's past once again

 

On every single occasion he has started it. What am I supposed to do when he makes sick insinuations about me and the mods just let him get away with it?

[Atticus Finch of Maycomb]

On every single occasion he has started it. What am I supposed to do when he makes sick insinuations about me and the mods just let him get away with it?

 

f*ck off you paedo

[the stain]

You've said worse things. Man up.

[Micky]

What a role model the kids have with the likes of you:

 

 

The GTC said Mr Walker's behaviour was "fundamentally incompatible" with being a teacher.

 

Anne Madden, from the GTC, said: "This was a serious public order offence and it is not appropriate for someone engaged in organising such violence to be involved in teaching children."

 

Which goes to show how fundamentally wrong people can be. How many ex drug addicts and alcoholics now work with people to help them fight their addictions, how many ex cons now work with kids in inner city areas teaching them the wrongs of knife and street crime. Quite a few Dune.

 

Very few people are whiter than white, most have wronged in their life in some way, shape or form - but that doesn't consign them to the 'human scrap heap'. If people get a second chance in life and grasp it, then well done to them, especially if it involves helping others along the way.

 

No skeletons in your closet?

[dune]

Which goes to show how fundamentally wrong people can be. How many ex drug addicts and alcoholics now work with people to help them fight their addictions, how many ex cons now work with kids in inner city areas teaching them the wrongs of knife and street crime. Quite a few Dune.

 

Very few people are whiter than white, most have wronged in their life in some way, shape or form - but that doesn't consign them to the 'human scrap heap'. If people get a second chance in life and grasp it, then well done to them, especially if it involves helping others along the way.

 

No skeletons in your closet?

 

I agree with everything you've said. The only reason I posted all that b/llocks was tit for tat. Pathetic really.

 

It won't happen again.

[View From The Top]

Dune and I have agreed the terms of a truce.

 

He also knows that I'm relaxed about who knows what about my past. It matter not one iota to me.

[dune]

And you'll al be pleased to know i've asked to be put on 3 posts a day.

 

You're gonna be in for some right treats when i've got all that spare time to put together my special posts of the day.

[the stain]

Did you kiss and make up?

[Jonnyboy]

Training. Hmm. I get up at 5am to travel an hour twice a month to do my training 7am - 9am. Then I have a full days work mostly getting back home about 9pm. And if I don't deliver value for money and win new clients, I don't get paid. Then again I work in the private sector so most of the public sector will think I am talking a different language.

 

You moved to Oz for that lifestyle? You mug.

[the stain]

And you'll al be pleased to know i've asked to be put on 3 posts a day.

 

Can you make it 0 posts a day please?

[Micky]

I agree with everything you've said. The only reason I posted all that b/llocks was tit for tat. Pathetic really.

 

It won't happen again.

 

Refreshing.

[dune]

Can you make it 0 posts a day please?

 

TBH I could live without the crap on these sub forums, but the main saints page is important to me especially once the season starts. All the political stuff is just banter as far as i'm concerned.

[Micky]

Dune and I have agreed the terms of a truce.

 

He also knows that I'm relaxed about who knows what about my past. It matter not one iota to me.

 

I wasn't necessarily championing you personally, although I admire your change of direction and what you now do. It was more a generalisation of people who perhaps make bad choices and see the error of their ways, but then make a positive contribution to society as a whole.

 

I'm pretty soppy over the old 'bad boy come good' sort of thing.

Edited 28 June, 2011 by Micky
Spelling mistake in a post directed at a teacher....FFS..!