Murder or just self defence?

[View From The Top]

I suspect that until you are in that situation most people wouldn't know what they would do. It's all very well saying I'd kill 'em, tear 'em apart, garrotte them with a shoelace, slowly burn them to death over a toaster etc etc but the fact is I simply don't know. I suspect I would cower under the covers and only find out the damage in the morning. At which point I would tell myself that if only I'd been awake I would have confronted them, killed them, garrotted them with a shoelace etc etc.

 

I would suggest that if you had children then you'd do everything possible to ensure their safety.

[revolution saint]

I would suggest that if you had children then you'd do everything possible to ensure their safety.

 

I'd certainly hope so, although I also realise that having kids wouldn't turn me into a one man army either. Some of the quotes on here - invade my house and you die! Well, it's nice to think that but I'm not sure it's an entirely sensible or realistic viewpoint. Of course this is an aside and not related to the OP particularly but most burglaries are not violent - I'm not sure I'd want to provoke one that led to it and consequently actually put at risk my fictional kids.

[bridge too far]

If someone broke into my house I'd just say 'take whatever you want' because no possession in the world is worth taking a life for.

 

(Cue: stream of people queueing up outside my house to rob me )

[Hatch]

If someone broke into my house I'd just say 'take whatever you want' because no possession in the world is worth taking a life for.

 

(Cue: stream of people queueing up outside my house to rob me )

 

well, my possessions are worth more to me than about 95% of the worlds population. So I don't agree with your point.

 

My old shoes are worth more to me than some scumbags life.

[bridge too far]

well, my possessions are worth more to me than about 95% of the worlds population. So I don't agree with your point.

 

My old shoes are worth more to me than some scumbags life.

 

Says it all about you, then, doesn't it.

[Baj]

If someone broke into my house I'd just say 'take whatever you want' because no possession in the world is worth taking a life for.

 

(Cue: stream of people queueing up outside my house to rob me )

 

and if they wanted to rape you? serious question....

[bridge too far]

and if they wanted to rape you? serious question....

 

That's a different question, surely? They would be attempting to assault me and I would be justified in defending myself.

 

However, let's assume it IS a parallel situation. I don't keep a knife on my bedside table and any rapist would have me pinned down so I wouldn't have the opportunity to go downstairs and grab a knife from the kitchen drawer.

[Barney Trubble]

If someone broke into my house I'd just say 'take whatever you want' because no possession in the world is worth taking a life for.

 

(Cue: stream of people queueing up outside my house to rob me )

 

That's you trying to justify to yourself your failure to want to confront an issue, it boils down to having no backbone. I can imagine you being true to your word though, politely sitting there dialling 999 as he robs you of what you have worked hard for, taking away a little bit of your confidence and self-esteem at the same time. I bet you would make him a cup of tea and tell him " take whatever you want, because no possession in the world is worth taking a life for".......after all, you have insurance don't you. so that makes it ok!

 

I despise this defeatist attitude, god forbid people with your attitude having a say in how our country is governed.

 

I bet you would have burglar support groups, for those who get a good pasting after attempting to burgle some hard working family of the little bit of luxury the have. Why not have them having a platform to air their views after all?

 

They are entitled to burgle someone house and only expect the owner to use reasonable force! They can discuss how outraged they are that honest home owners are using unreasonable force on them, when they break into a property. As the nominated chairperson, you could nod you head and say "Well they do have a point, the law is quite clear that you can only use reasonable force. I personally think that no possession in the world is worth taking a life for, after all, that's what insurance is for - agreed?" (Burglars heads all nod together in agreement)

 

There was a time when an old fashioned old fella like me thought that 'principle' mattered. It would seem that my way of thinking is from a bygone era. Sad!

[LGTL]

So Barney, if someone had a handgun and a 6 inch knife on them, you'd fancy a fight over a TV, risking your life and your families future? That isn't so much having no backbone, more being sensible. If they are unarmed that's a different matter, but it's difficult to tell i'm sure.

 

Or would you be the type of brave hero where your children can only visit you in a morgue?

[bridge too far]

In no way am I condoning the burglary (although, judging by recent press comments I think there's more to this case than meets the eye).

 

I just don't think my car / TV / laptop is a) worth killing for and b) worth being killed for. My children are grown up and living their own lives, but if they were little and there was a risk they'd be hurt or I'd be hurt defending a few trinkets then I'd let the burglar get on with it, quite frankly.

[the stain]

Barney is well hard and would duff them robbers up good. There's no chance he'd get killed.

[latter day saint]

In no way am I condoning the burglary (although, judging by recent press comments I think there's more to this case than meets the eye).

 

I just don't think my car / TV / laptop is a) worth killing for and b) worth being killed for. My children are grown up and living their own lives, but if they were little and there was a risk they'd be hurt or I'd be hurt defending a few trinkets then I'd let the burglar get on with it, quite frankly.

its not just about the items they are taking from your house, its the loss of feeling safe & secure in you own home.

letting the burglar just get on with it would mark you as an easy target & you would soon find yourself burgled again & again.

[bridge too far]

its not just about the items they are taking from your house, its the loss of feeling safe & secure in you own home.

letting the burglar just get on with it would mark you as an easy target & you would soon find yourself burgled again & again.

 

I wouldn't if I challenged them and they killed me would I

 

I haven't been burgled (touch wood) but my son and his family were a couple of years ago. They didn't even realise until they went into their kitchen and saw the back door open (it was on a winter's evening, quite early and before they went to bed). I have to concede that their teenage daughter was quite nervous for a few weeks (she was 13 at the time and they stole her purse amongst other things).

 

But thank goodness they didn't catch the burglar in the act - who knows what might have happened. The family could have been left without a father (and my son wouldn't have been an easy target, being way over 6 foot and built like a rugby player).

 

I guess it all boils down to the fact that possessions don't rate highly with me whereas my children and their children do.

[latter day saint]

when i was still at home, we were burgled twice within a year & it really affected my mum.i still don't think she has got over it,especially the 2nd time as they harmed her dog.

when i moved in to my gf's mums house she had been burgled twice & had her moped stolen 3 times before i moved in. i was in the house when they tried again & chased after them but lost them jumping through neighbours gardens. in the last 10 years we have had no further trouble. maybe they realised it wasn't worth the hassle ?

[sadoldgit]

But we do agree with him. The point is not about what the most serious offence is - we all know that. The point is what to do when confronted by 4 masked men burgling your house.

 

If somebody is in your house it is very difficult not to have some sort of confrontation, unless of course you live in a mansion. You cannot blame a homeowner for protecting their family and property. How would you have reacted in the homeowners situation?

 

It's tragic that a man had to loose his life in this, but I think most people will agree that he had choices.

 

So it's not the case that we disagree, we don't, we are all in agreement about the offences. Great advice - don't get involved, phone the police. Unfortunately the practicalities of it are very limited.

 

Yes he had choices, so did the guy who stabbed him. And that will be his problem in court.

[sadoldgit]

and if they wanted to rape you? serious question....

 

Burglers burgle. They don't, in most cases, set out to or actually rape somebody.

[egg]

Yes he had choices, so did the guy who stabbed him. And that will be his problem in court.

 

 

 

You don't know that. None of us know what was happening when the guy was killed or in the build up to it. This may have been a frenzied defence to an attack, or he may have chased the bloke and killed him whilst in no danger. If the latter applies he made a choice, and the wrong one at that. If it's the former then it's a different matter.

[sadoldgit]

You don't know that. None of us know what was happening when the guy was killed or in the build up to it. This may have been a frenzied defence to an attack, or he may have chased the bloke and killed him whilst in no danger. If the latter applies he made a choice, and the wrong one at that. If it's the former then it's a different matter.

 

No I don't but one man is dead and another isnt. The person who isn't could well face charges.

[Barney Trubble]

So Barney, if someone had a handgun and a 6 inch knife on them, you'd fancy a fight over a TV, risking your life and your families future? That isn't so much having no backbone, more being sensible. If they are unarmed that's a different matter, but it's difficult to tell i'm sure.

 

Or would you be the type of brave hero where your children can only visit you in a morgue?

 

And so be it. At least I tried to stand up for something I believed to be right, instead of surrendering on my knees and giving in. Maybe that's just self-righteousness on my part but if we are scared of being threatened there where would it end for the good guys? We might as well just roll over and give in.

 

Weak minded people like you, hide behind the 'I'd rather be a coward and alive' but it doesn't mask the coward that you are.

 

I have only stood up to a guy that was breaking into my shed at 4am, I went down and I was shaking with fear, rage and my body trembled. I was scared, I admit that but I don't regret it. On this occasion, he jumped the fence and ran, maybe it was my lucky night. I'd do it again though, scared ****less, as I was, I would rather by myself than you. I can look into the mirror and know that I contributed to trying to make society a better place. Whilst you would have hidden under your duvet, or got your wife to take a look, you hide behind the 'Only a 'fool would challenge an intruder, or I'm doing it so my kids still have a father' but inside you know you just didn't have the backbone to stand up for your families right to live without fear of people like this.

 

For a burglar, you would be easy prey for another go again, he knows the path of least resistance is his easiest option, so might come back again as he knows what to expect, only next time, you might not be there, your wife and kids might be left to deal with him. How would you feel if they came to harm, knowing that you never made a stand for them in the first place? Hey, but at least you haven't come to any harm, that's the main thing I guess.

[sadoldgit]

And so be it. At least I tried to stand up for something I believed to be right, instead of surrendering on my knees and giving in. Maybe that's just self-righteousness on my part but if we are scared of being threatened there where would it end for the good guys? We might as well just roll over and give in.

 

Weak minded people like you, hide behind the 'I'd rather be a coward and alive' but it doesn't mask the coward that you are.

 

I have only stood up to a guy that was breaking into my shed at 4am, I went down and I was shaking with fear, rage and my body trembled. I was scared, I admit that but I don't regret it. On this occasion, he jumped the fence and ran, maybe it was my lucky night. I'd do it again though, scared ****less, as I was, I would rather by myself than you. I can look into the mirror and know that I contributed to trying to make society a better place. Whilst you would have hidden under your duvet, or got your wife to take a look, you hide behind the 'Only a 'fool would challenge an intruder, or I'm doing it so my kids still have a father' but inside you know you just didn't have the backbone to stand up for your families right to live without fear of people like this.

 

For a burglar, you would be easy prey for another go again, he knows the path of least resistance is his easiest option, so might come back again as he knows what to expect, only next time, you might not be there, your wife and kids might be left to deal with him. How would you feel if they came to harm, knowing that you never made a stand for them in the first place? Hey, but at least you haven't come to any harm, that's the main thing I guess.

 

You didn't kill him though did you? There is a world of difference between fronting someone up (and you are right, most of these people are scared stiff of being found and will run unless cornered) and killing them.

[egg]

No I don't but one man is dead and another isnt. The person who isn't could well face charges.

 

 

 

Of course he could. The point tho is that you stated that the one who isn't had choices. I'm saying that is unknown and you are wrong to make such a statement.

[the stain]

Weak minded people like you, hide behind the 'I'd rather be a coward and alive' but it doesn't mask the coward that you are.

 

Exactly. I'd much rather be a dead hero than a living coward. Only weak minded people would think any differently.

[the stain]

Barney Trubble is a hero to us all.

[revolution saint]

That's you trying to justify to yourself your failure to want to confront an issue, it boils down to having no backbone. I can imagine you being true to your word though, politely sitting there dialling 999 as he robs you of what you have worked hard for, taking away a little bit of your confidence and self-esteem at the same time. I bet you would make him a cup of tea and tell him " take whatever you want, because no possession in the world is worth taking a life for".......after all, you have insurance don't you. so that makes it ok!

 

I despise this defeatist attitude, god forbid people with your attitude having a say in how our country is governed.

 

I bet you would have burglar support groups, for those who get a good pasting after attempting to burgle some hard working family of the little bit of luxury the have. Why not have them having a platform to air their views after all?

 

They are entitled to burgle someone house and only expect the owner to use reasonable force! They can discuss how outraged they are that honest home owners are using unreasonable force on them, when they break into a property. As the nominated chairperson, you could nod you head and say "Well they do have a point, the law is quite clear that you can only use reasonable force. I personally think that no possession in the world is worth taking a life for, after all, that's what insurance is for - agreed?" (Burglars heads all nod together in agreement)

 

There was a time when an old fashioned old fella like me thought that 'principle' mattered. It would seem that my way of thinking is from a bygone era. Sad!

 

And personally I despise you for having such a judgemental attitude. There was a time when an old fella like you would respect someone else's opinion even if you disagreed with it. Not any more it seems. Get a grip you OAP Rambo, so you went out and followed someone who wanted to look at your shed? BFD, well done, feel free to now criticise anyone who either can't or isn't brave enough to do that.

[Micky]

Yes he had choices, so did the guy who stabbed him. And that will be his problem in court.

 

But we don't know what choices the homeowner had. The burglar could have chosen not to break into the house, but he didn't, and as a result he faced the consequences. The homeowner was put in a position where he had to make choices - whether he chose correctly, remains to be seen.

 

It appears that some people feel happy for a thief to take their posessions so long as they leave them in peace - I find this somewhat staggering really. I'm not advocating that we should all become 'have a go heroes', but if that is to be the common stance buglery could become a daytime occupation. And what of street muggings and theft, if we saw somebody being mugged, do we just turn the other way, pretend we didn't see it, wait till the victim was laying in the street, make sure the mugger had run far enough away.

 

If people simply cave in whenever they are intimidated I fear that the thiefs have won - we'd just as well rename burglery to 'open house, take what you want, please leave quietly, don't wake the kids, shut the door behind you'.

 

There is saying that an Englishmans home is his castle, castles have battlements from where they were defended from invaders, it appears that this is no longer the case and the drawbridge is permenantly open.

[the stain]

There is saying that an Englishmans home is his castle, castles have battlements from where they were defended from invaders, it appears that this is no longer the case and the drawbridge is permenantly open.

 

Exactly. When will the law start to take sayings more seriously? It's about time that "too many cooks spoil the broth" became a legislature, for a start.

[LGTL]

And so be it. At least I tried to stand up for something I believed to be right, instead of surrendering on my knees and giving in. Maybe that's just self-righteousness on my part but if we are scared of being threatened there where would it end for the good guys? We might as well just roll over and give in.

 

Weak minded people like you, hide behind the 'I'd rather be a coward and alive' but it doesn't mask the coward that you are.

 

I have only stood up to a guy that was breaking into my shed at 4am, I went down and I was shaking with fear, rage and my body trembled. I was scared, I admit that but I don't regret it. On this occasion, he jumped the fence and ran, maybe it was my lucky night. I'd do it again though, scared ****less, as I was, I would rather by myself than you. I can look into the mirror and know that I contributed to trying to make society a better place. Whilst you would have hidden under your duvet, or got your wife to take a look, you hide behind the 'Only a 'fool would challenge an intruder, or I'm doing it so my kids still have a father' but inside you know you just didn't have the backbone to stand up for your families right to live without fear of people like this.

 

For a burglar, you would be easy prey for another go again, he knows the path of least resistance is his easiest option, so might come back again as he knows what to expect, only next time, you might not be there, your wife and kids might be left to deal with him. How would you feel if they came to harm, knowing that you never made a stand for them in the first place? Hey, but at least you haven't come to any harm, that's the main thing I guess.

 

Of course, when they came back to your house you'd be a massive help wouldn't you, being 6ft under and all. They'd all know you weren't there 24/7. They could come back, rape your wife and children, murder them too and where would you be Barney eh?? What an amazing husband and dad you must be, thinking of being seen as a "hero" rather then being alive to look after your family! What a sad selfish little man. And you don't think i'd challenge them too? Have a word! But there are times in life where you have to think of other people except your own pig ignorant self.

 

I'm so proud of your hero instincts though, needless to say if I came and robbed your house i'd enjoy watching you try and get anywhere near me, and you'd probably end up drinking through a straw you'd no doubt enjoy telling everyone what a little hero you were though.

Edited 26 June, 2011 by LGTL

[PaulSaint]

An update:

 

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1424790_salford-intruder-death-stabbed-raider-may-have-gone-to-wrong-address?rss=yes

[sadoldgit]

Ok, for all of those who think it is okay to take the life of the person who breaks into your house -

 

You have an 18 year old son who is out of work. He breaks into a house because he wants money for booze, drugs, whatever. The householder comes downstairs and catches him in the act. He sticks a knife in him and your son dies. You are cool with that, yes?

[sadoldgit]

While we are on the subject. Kenneth Noye got away with stabbing a police officer to death who was staking out his house. His defence was he acted in self defence. So all of you guys itching to stick a knife into someone, you might actually get away with it.

[Smirking_Saint]

And if it is you what purpose does that serve? If they threaten to kill you and it is you or them that is one issue. If they are just threatening and want to take your goodies, why leave your kids fatherless?

 

Utter utter bullsh*t.

 

If someone has the mentality to break into your house, whilst occupied then surely you have to take the assumption that they are more ready then you are to use force to get what they want.

 

The fact is I am not going to hang about trying to judge whether or not they are the type to get violent as, basically, by the time I have formed the opinion of yes or no then I will probably already be left incapacitated or worse.

 

If I confront someone who has broken in, especially with family in the house I am going to base my assumption that they are possibly armed and possibly ready to do harm, therefore they will either exit quickly by their own means or via window down stairs etc, or worse if needs be.

 

I can't understand those that would sit back and hope for the best, as if the best is that you take a kicking and whatever happens to your family happens then what ?

 

I would argue that 90% of people if asked, would act first and ask questions later, also, reasonable force is so hard to judge, how do you know what weapons and what intention they have in the dark ? Under a mad panic ?

[benjii]

As I said, this thread is populated with violent divs who want a scrap.

[sadoldgit]

Utter utter bullsh*t.

 

If someone has the mentality to break into your house, whilst occupied then surely you have to take the assumption that they are more ready then you are to use force to get what they want.

 

The fact is I am not going to hang about trying to judge whether or not they are the type to get violent as, basically, by the time I have formed the opinion of yes or no then I will probably already be left incapacitated or worse.

 

If I confront someone who has broken in, especially with family in the house I am going to base my assumption that they are possibly armed and possibly ready to do harm, therefore they will either exit quickly by their own means or via window down stairs etc, or worse if needs be.

 

I can't understand those that would sit back and hope for the best, as if the best is that you take a kicking and whatever happens to your family happens then what ?

 

I would argue that 90% of people if asked, would act first and ask questions later, also, reasonable force is so hard to judge, how do you know what weapons and what intention they have in the dark ? Under a mad panic ?

 

In your opinion but not in the opinion of the law. The vast majoirty of burlaries are carried out with no harm coming to anyone other then the loss of property. As has been said earlier, most of the people would crap themselves and run away if disturbed. They aren't breaking in to kill you or you family. They are breaking in to steal. We do not have capital punishment in this country and vertainly not for burglary. Nothing gives you the right to take the law into your own hands. You can use reasonable force to defend yourself but that would not include sticking a knife into somone depedant on the circumstances.

 

Tell me, someone lifts your wallet from your pocket in the street (ie steals from you). Do you think that gives you the right to kill them?

 

Of course burglary is wrong but as much as you might not like it, it is not punishable by death.

 

Personally I am happy to live in a country civilised enough to pratice laws commesurate with the crimes.

 

What is utter utter bullsh*t is the macho stance that says you break into my home and you are dead. Utterly ridiculous.

 

The 90% of people you talk about (have you actually asked that many people?) would not stick a knife in someone first and worry about it later otherwise the death tool would be enormous.

[hypochondriac]

My death tool is enormous.

[PaulSaint]

Tell me, someone lifts your wallet from your pocket in the street (ie steals from you). Do you think that gives you the right to kill them?

 

Once they open my wallet theyll die of dissapointment anyway

[LGTL]

Once they open my wallet theyll die of dissapointment anyway

 

very good

[Micky]

Ok, for all of those who think it is okay to take the life of the person who breaks into your house -

 

You have an 18 year old son who is out of work. He breaks into a house because he wants money for booze, drugs, whatever. The householder comes downstairs and catches him in the act. He sticks a knife in him and your son dies. You are cool with that, yes?

 

Just turn that hypothetical argument around and have a think about it for a while. You'd quite happily allow a burgerlar to knife your family because of the fear of what may happen in a court. You are cool with that, yes?

[Smirking_Saint]

In your opinion but not in the opinion of the law. The vast majoirty of burlaries are carried out with no harm coming to anyone other then the loss of property. As has been said earlier, most of the people would crap themselves and run away if disturbed. They aren't breaking in to kill you or you family. They are breaking in to steal. We do not have capital punishment in this country and vertainly not for burglary. Nothing gives you the right to take the law into your own hands. You can use reasonable force to defend yourself but that would not include sticking a knife into somone depedant on the circumstances.

 

Tell me, someone lifts your wallet from your pocket in the street (ie steals from you). Do you think that gives you the right to kill them?

 

Of course burglary is wrong but as much as you might not like it, it is not punishable by death.

 

Personally I am happy to live in a country civilised enough to pratice laws commesurate with the crimes.

 

What is utter utter bullsh*t is the macho stance that says you break into my home and you are dead. Utterly ridiculous.

 

The 90% of people you talk about (have you actually asked that many people?) would not stick a knife in someone first and worry about it later otherwise the death tool would be enormous.

 

Point taken

 

What I am saying however is that if I confront them and they run then ok, I am not going to follow them and gun them down in a callous manner, I am also not saying that I will knock them to the ground and repeatedly crack them over the head until they are dead. That is just rediculous.

 

As far as what we are talking about in regards to the OP then how do we really know what happened ?? Perhaps the guy was in his kitchen when confronted by not one but four masked men and grabbed a knife, perhaps they started coming towards him ? What would you do ? Put the knife down and wonder what would happen in court ? In my eyes if it was that situation then he is well within his rights to act upon his instinct.

 

It does however turn into something different if he chased them out of his home and then caught him, dragged him back in kicking and screaming and stabbed him repeatedly to death. That would be murder IMO.

 

All I am saying is if confronted with someone in my home I will more then likely arm and protect myself/family first and foremost and ask questions after, if they flee then what I have done is justified and I will then phone the police etc, if they stay then I have to be ready to do what needs to be done, do you really think you can reason with them ? Or try and work out the statistics oif whether they are a violent burglar or not ?

 

What I am not saying is I will take the law into my hands, but that in these situations the law should be stacked in the favour of the homeowner, because as a law abiding person I just don't know what sort of situation I am faced with until it turns ugly or not.

[bridge too far]

Just turn that hypothetical argument around and have a think about it for a while. You'd quite happily allow a burgerlar to knife your family because of the fear of what may happen in a court. You are cool with that, yes?

 

Spurious argument, given that SOG had already opined that most burglars are only after money (and he'll know more than the rest of us given that he works for the CPS). In any event, fear of what may happen in court is irrelevant because it would easily be demonstrated that knifing the burglar who'd killed your family would be self defence.

 

What is needed is clear guidance on the whole issue.

[Thedelldays]

Spurious argument, given that SOG had already opined that most burglars are only after money (and he'll know more than the rest of us given that he works for the CPS). In any event, fear of what may happen in court is irrelevant because it would easily be demonstrated that knifing the burglar who'd killed your family would be self defence.

 

What is needed is clear guidance on the whole issue.

they may only be after money...until confronted..

[sadoldgit]

I don't know the facts in this case, I am talking generally. The police will be building a file and will present that file to the CPS. Because it is a fatality the case will go to a senior lawyer to decide if charges are to be brought, and what those charges will be. Each case is dealt with on its own merits.

 

The law is stacked in favour of the person who does not commit a crime. Obviously consideration is given to the circumstances but if someone breaks in and is then attackd then potentially 2 crimes have been committed. This is because we have a police force and it is their job to protect us.

 

Yes I agree, you are never sure how you will react. Trouble is form some of the responses on here some people cant wait to chase a burgler with a knife!

 

I sleep with a baseball bat under my bed. It makes me feel a little better but I think I would swing it around and shout in the hope the bloke did a runner.

 

I witnessed a smash and grab raid in broad daylight last year. The guys wore white boiler suits and were hammering a jewellers shop windown with sledge hammers. People we just standing around watching so after shouting for someone to do something I ended up chasing them down the road! Idiot. My partner went ballistic at me later saying you don't know what they would have done if you had caught one of them and she was right. They were caught (stopped at a red light bless them) and charged and are now doing time. I think in future I will just note down details and leave it to the boys in blue.

 

What is really sad is the the current government cuts are making our homes less safe and I wonder if we are going to see more of this?

[bridge too far]

they may only be after money...until confronted..

 

That's why I wouldn't confront them. To reiterate - no material possession in the world is worth dying for. In any event, I wouldn't stand much chance, being an old woman. Perhaps I'd do a moonie - that'd scare them to death

[sadoldgit]

they may only be after money...until confronted..

 

Most of them will not want to be caught so will run. Obvioulsy if cornered or caught some may fight back. There are (mercifully) very few incidents of death or GBH through break in incidents. Part of the problem happens when the householder wants to dish out a hiding to the person who has broekn in. If I fight or struggle ensures then the other person is probably going to defend themselves and then who knows what might happen?

 

The police advice is to call them immediately but not to get involved. If the person or people who have broken in are aggressive then of course you would need to deal with the situation differently but you would need to show that you used reasonable force to defend yourself.

[latter day saint]

As I said, this thread is populated with violent divs who want a scrap.

wrong

i am not a violent person,far from it but when i was a victim of a burglary i reacted to the situation as i saw fit at the time. i'm glad i picked up my baseball bat as the two intruders had metal bars with which they forced the back door. luckily they ran when confronted but who knows what would of happened if i had just stayed in my bed & they had walked upstairs ?

[Micky]

Spurious argument, given that SOG had already opined that most burglars are only after money (and he'll know more than the rest of us given that he works for the CPS). In any event, fear of what may happen in court is irrelevant because it would easily be demonstrated that knifing the burglar who'd killed your family would be self defence.

 

What is needed is clear guidance on the whole issue.

 

Spurious asrgument given that you said most burglars. We know that, but occassionally it all goes tits up and the burglars get found out and confrontation occurs.

 

Nobody is saying that if you confront a burgler in your house, you kill them - that is just a stupid twist that SOG added to the equation earlier. (Yes a few keyboard warriors bashed their chests about it too - more bravado than substance). However we are in very great danger of supporting the offender more than the offended.

 

As for working in the CPS, that's great, but not really of any relevance. Are we just to let a burgler have free reign of our homes once they have gained access, are we not entitled to do 'something' to try to maintain our posessions?

 

If that 'something' means inflicting harm of any sort will the CPS always charge the homeowner no matter what.

 

As for guidance on the issue, what will it be, a 500 page document covering all eventualities of having your home burgled, people have split seconds to make these choices.

 

Salford MP, Hazel Blears, said: “Obviously each case needs to be judged on the evidence, and at this stage the police are still trying to ascertain what happened.''

 

“I entirely agree that people should have the right to use reasonable force to protect themselves, their loved ones, and property.”

 

But Ms Blears said: “The doctrine of reasonable force is well established in this country.”

 

Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, Peter Fahy, added in an interview: “The law is very clear if you are being attacked in your own home you can attack back.''

 

“You can get in the first punch. You can protect your property and protect yourself.”

 

It appears that even those people who should know such guidance are not that clear about it themselves - what chance does the homeowner have.

 

You cannot look at the facts of this case so far and not come down on the side of the homeowner for protecting his family and posessions.

[Thedelldays]

no one can deny your inherant right to self defence...

its how you interpret/implement that is where the huge grey area lies

[NickG]

the law is clear and fair. If you are reasonably defending you are ok, if you are handing out punishment as some idiotic earlier posts you are in the wrong

[Micky]

the law is clear and fair. If you are reasonably defending you are ok, if you are handing out punishment as some idiotic earlier posts you are in the wrong

 

Fu ck me Nick, that was brief. So is the homeowner guilty or innocent?

[egg]

Fu ck me Nick, that was brief. So is the homeowner guilty or innocent?

 

Who knows. Depends on the circumstances and the context in which he was using the force.

 

If the fella was coming at him and the only weapon to hand was a knife which he used to fend the guy off then probably not guilty. If he wasn't under attack but then went to get a knife and stabbed the fella anyway then guilty.

 

Anywhere in between then it depends on the situation.

[saintfully]

Spurious asrgument given that you said most burglars. We know that, but occassionally it all goes tits up and the burglars get found out and confrontation occurs.

 

Nobody is saying that if you confront a burgler in your house, you kill them - that is just a stupid twist that SOG added to the equation earlier. (Yes a few keyboard warriors bashed their chests about it too - more bravado than substance). However we are in very great danger of supporting the offender more than the offended.

 

As for working in the CPS, that's great, but not really of any relevance. Are we just to let a burgler have free reign of our homes once they have gained access, are we not entitled to do 'something' to try to maintain our posessions?

 

If that 'something' means inflicting harm of any sort will the CPS always charge the homeowner no matter what.

 

As for guidance on the issue, what will it be, a 500 page document covering all eventualities of having your home burgled, people have split seconds to make these choices.

 

Salford MP, Hazel Blears, said: “Obviously each case needs to be judged on the evidence, and at this stage the police are still trying to ascertain what happened.''

 

“I entirely agree that people should have the right to use reasonable force to protect themselves, their loved ones, and property.”

 

But Ms Blears said: “The doctrine of reasonable force is well established in this country.”

 

Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, Peter Fahy, added in an interview: “The law is very clear if you are being attacked in your own home you can attack back.''

 

“You can get in the first punch. You can protect your property and protect yourself.”

 

It appears that even those people who should know such guidance are not that clear about it themselves - what chance does the homeowner have.

 

You cannot look at the facts of this case so far and not come down on the side of the homeowner for protecting his family and posessions.

 

I'm afraid I can't be bothered to read through all this thread. However, IMHO you lose the argument simply for quoting Hazel Blears. This can never be justified.