PaulSaint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13885457 Personally I feel sorry for the householders and no, I mean no sympathy for the burglar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 I agree. Feel totally sorry for those people who were trying to defend their property. No doubt the law will come down on the side of the intentional criminal though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 If I got woken up near midnight and found four men wearing masks in my house, I'd grab the nearest weapon and do whatever damage to them I could manage. They left his house: job done. No sympathy chez scotty, its a shame the burglar died but he should never have been there in the first place. You'll be relieved to hear thats the last post of the day from me btw hahahaaa, til steve grant gets his cheque;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 "Live by the sword, die by the sword" ! Self inflicted death IMHO ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Bit too early to come to any conclusions. To those posting above - what level of physical punishment is acceptable to be committed against burglers? Stabbing to death OK? mutilation OK? torture OK? slow lingering death OK? Presumably we should be pushing our politicians to pass much tougher sentances for burglary e.g. hanging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huffton Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Guess it comes down to reasonable force. If the guy can prove he felt in fear of his life and only stabbed the burglar once, in self defence, then he should be found not guilty. However if the guy has 20 stab wounds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 To those posting above - what level of physical punishment is acceptable to be committed against burglers? Stabbing to death OK? mutilation OK? torture OK? slow lingering death OK? I am a strong believer in self defense of home and property being justified. I would take this as far as manslaughter. Intentional detaining, torture or homocide of an intruder is too far though but you should have the right to fight the f**ker off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Break into my home thus posing a risk to my wife and kids then you die. End of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLove Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 I Personally feel if someone breaks into your house you should be allowed to gut them with a blunt spoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baj Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 If I saw 4 men breaking into my house with masks on, and my family were here with me, I would grab the biggest knife I could and stab until they left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exit2 Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 If I saw 4 men breaking into my house with masks on, and my family were here with me, I would grab the biggest knife I could and stab until they left. Im with Baj on this, and would stand in court and say I would do it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 On the face of it, with the limited facts available, you have to come down on the side of the house owner. 4 unknown masked men in your house at midnight pose significant risk, arming yourself with a knife is warranted as far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Unlikely to be murder, but then again not necessarily self-defence. It depends on the facts of the particular situation. Regardless, I have no sympathy whatsoever for the burglar who was killed. The fact that there were four men involved in the break-in puts the home-owner under even more stress and panic. You'd have to hear the details of what happened to make a final judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
so22saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 I think reasonable force might be enough here to get the accused off. Thing is, life is shades of grey and the law does try and respect that - 4 *masked* men trying to break into a house - I think picking up a weapon is justified. Basically, if I'm on the jury, they're not guilty. If it was a 14 year old boy being shot in the back by a bloke with a shotgun, different I reckon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu0x Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 I am a strong believer in self defense of home and property being justified. I would take this as far as manslaughter. Intentional detaining, torture or homocide of an intruder is too far though but you should have the right to fight the f**ker off. But that's an inherent contradiction. If it's manslaughter, it's criminal. Manslaughter is homicide. If it's legitimate self defence under the Criminal Law Act, it's not an assault of any kind. With all due respect, you've highlighted perfectly the problem - 99.9% of 'lay people' don't really understand the technicalities of the law, so they rely on the invariably hopelessly simplified (and incorrect) summaries provided by the media to base their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 If I saw 4 men breaking into my house with masks on, and my family were here with me, I would grab the biggest knife I could and stab until they left. Like Baj says, only I'd give the knife to my Mrs & hide behind her. Seriously though, 1 stab wound then self defence, any more & you need to ask questions, although if the wound is in the back, presumably the burglar was running away, so I guess that is questionable. Based on the little I've heard about this, if the housholder was up for murder & I was on the jury, it'd be not guilty from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 (edited) But that's an inherent contradiction. If it's manslaughter, it's criminal. Manslaughter is homicide. If it's legitimate self defence under the Criminal Law Act, it's not an assault of any kind. With all due respect, you've highlighted perfectly the problem - 99.9% of 'lay people' don't really understand the technicalities of the law, so they rely on the invariably hopelessly simplified (and incorrect) summaries provided by the media to base their opinions. I may be 'lay' in this respect, but I feel there is the need to define 'intent' in these things. Or at least specify the black/white boundary in matters such as these. Burglary is a massive problem in society, people want to defend their family, themselves and their property. What can they do!? The law needs to spell it out for us simpletons! Can I stab them in the back or shoot them in the face? ;) Edited 23 June, 2011 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 You would have to prove that your life was in danger and that you had no option. Most burglers are after nicking stuff, not killing the householders. You would have a tough job proving self defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 You would have to prove that your life was in danger and that you had no option. Most burglers are after nicking stuff, not killing the householders. You would have a tough job proving self defence. Yeah, try doing that without filming the incident. Oh, wait, they need to give permission for film to be submitted as evidence don't they...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 I met the farmer Tony Martin recently who killed an intruder with a shotgun about 10 years ago. He's a bit of an oddball and started the conversation with a "Do you know who I am?" sentence. He sticks by his actions though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Bit too early to come to any conclusions. To those posting above - what level of physical punishment is acceptable to be committed against burglers? Stabbing to death OK? mutilation OK? torture OK? slow lingering death OK? Presumably we should be pushing our politicians to pass much tougher sentances for burglary e.g. hanging? All of those. You can't stop and try to reason with them. The moment you start talking you're lost and possibly dead. These four knew that what they were doing was wrong and deserve anything they got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 I met the farmer Tony Martin recently who killed an intruder with a shotgun about 10 years ago. He's a bit of an oddball and started the conversation with a "Do you know who I am?" sentence. He sticks by his actions though. What people do not take into account is the fact that he had been repeatedly burgled. The police had done nothing to protect him and inevitably he snapped - how can you possibly tolerate the level of abuse that he had to and sit back and do nothing. When the law is redundant you take your own action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 From the linked BBC article... The stabbed man, 26, is believed to have been carried away by the other intruders as they fled, before being dumped in a street in Pendlebury. So much for honour amongst thieves eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under Weststand Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Whilst the legal technicalities are a little difficult to prove, and only the people involved will know what actually happened. It is unfortunate that the individual involved died, but had he been behaving as most of the rest of society by not going around a strangers house & trying to steal his possessions, then he would still be alive today. Who knows what they may have done to the 2 females in the house given the chance. I know what I'd do if I found 4 masked men in my house, I'd do all I could to protect my wife & daughter & my hard worked for possessions, & F**k the dirty thieving scrots! We don't know quite the full details of what happened yet but I have real sympathy for the family whose lives have been shattered all because 4 low life scum decided that they'd break into their house! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 The way I look at it... if you break into somebody's house with the intention of stealing their valuables, the second you cross that threshold you have declared yourself outside of the law IMO, therefore you waive all of your societal rights to be protected by that law which you so blatantly disregard. I had my mountain bike stolen once - came out from where I was working expecting to ride home only to find someone had somehow broken the lock and taken off with it. I was so angry that if I had caught the little c**t in the act I do not know what I would have done to him in all honesty. It is one of the only times in my life I have ever really felt pure rage, and it took me about an hour to calm down. If I caught someone in my house trying to swipe my stuff then I couldn't honestly say that I would remain calm and call the police - that would probably be the last thing on my mind. The human 'fight or flight' instinct would kick in and any injuries the burglar might receive would be down to my diminished responsibility for my actions. In this particular case, at least there is one less thieving scumbag on the streets of Salford now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Trubble Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Bit too early to come to any conclusions. To those posting above - what level of physical punishment is acceptable to be committed against burglers? Stabbing to death OK? mutilation OK? torture OK? slow lingering death OK? Presumably we should be pushing our politicians to pass much tougher sentances for burglary e.g. hanging? Yes, that's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 we have been broken into twice, the 2nd time we were in the house as they kicked the back door in. i ran down stairs with a baseball bat & chased them but lost them in a neighbours garden. i got a lecture from the police because i had picked up the baseball bat even though the burglar's were tooled up with metal bars ! this was before my son was born. god help anyone who tried it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 break into my house and threaten me, kids etc . You die. Or I will attempting to kill you. Either way ,one of us dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 break into my house and threaten me, kids etc . You die. Or I will attempting to kill you. Either way ,one of us dies. Totally and utterly spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 But that's an inherent contradiction. If it's manslaughter, it's criminal. Manslaughter is homicide. If it's legitimate self defence under the Criminal Law Act, it's not an assault of any kind. With all due respect, you've highlighted perfectly the problem - 99.9% of 'lay people' don't really understand the technicalities of the law, so they rely on the invariably hopelessly simplified (and incorrect) summaries provided by the media to base their opinions. That's a strange response. Murder is a wholly different crime to manslaughter. Murder requires intent, well malice aforethought if you want to be precise, whereas manslaughter doesn't. It is possible to stab someone to death, and avoid a murder conviction. It is the intent to kill that is the difference between the two crimes. That could apply, and often does, even when there is no claim of defence. Self defence is a different issue. You need to show that the act of defence is reasonable and linked to the threat. So if someone is in no obvious physical danger, goes off and gets a weapon and then attacks someone, again when there is no obvious physical danger, they are not using self defence. If they were in danger one then looks at the degree of force, ie if you stab the ****er to death when he's down and out you've gone too far. Juries can be liberal in how they interpret intent and/or the circumstances of self defence. I don't know enough of the facts of this case to give a view. Personally one part of me thinks that we should be able to do what we like to burglars without fear of conviction. Another part of me is worried that is likely to mean burglars being more physical, ie getting in there first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 You shouldn't go breaking into peoples houses but it is a matter of degree. It is worse to stick a knife into someone. Even the courts can't take someone's life, so how do you think you will fare in court if you take the law into your own hands? It might seem unfair but whichever way you look at it, killing someone still ranks higher than breaking and entering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 break into my house and threaten me, kids etc . You die. Or I will attempting to kill you. Either way ,one of us dies. And if it is you what purpose does that serve? If they threaten to kill you and it is you or them that is one issue. If they are just threatening and want to take your goodies, why leave your kids fatherless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebastian firefly Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 break into my house and threaten me, kids etc . You die. Or I will attempting to kill you. Either way ,one of us dies. now i know this when i come i will come heavy not in a fnrr fnrr way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 The way I look at it... if you break into somebody's house with the intention of stealing their valuables, the second you cross that threshold you have declared yourself outside of the law IMO, therefore you waive all of your societal rights to be protected by that law which you so blatantly disregard. So one can catch a thief and then decide to imprison him and torture him daily. Proportionate? not really. Does anyone who breaks the law forfeit the right to all of societal rights? If I see some driving recklessly along my street which often has kids playing in it I could shoot him or pull him from the car and give him a good shoeing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebastian firefly Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 So one can catch a thief and then decide to imprison him and torture him daily. Proportionate? not really. Does anyone who breaks the law forfeit the right to all of societal rights? If I see some driving recklessly along my street which often has kids playing in it I could shoot him or pull him from the car and give him a good shoeing? when i drive recklessly down the street in case you pull me from the car and give me a good shoeing ill shoot you first then run over you corpse just in case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 But that's an inherent contradiction. If it's manslaughter, it's criminal. Manslaughter is homicide. If it's legitimate self defence under the Criminal Law Act, it's not an assault of any kind. With all due respect, you've highlighted perfectly the problem - 99.9% of 'lay people' don't really understand the technicalities of the law, so they rely on the invariably hopelessly simplified (and incorrect) summaries provided by the media to base their opinions. Nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 You would have to prove that your life was in danger and that you had no option. Most burglers are after nicking stuff, not killing the householders. You would have a tough job proving self defence. No you wouldn't. Why do people post guesses as facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Totally and utterly spot on. If a tad neanderthal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 What people do not take into account is the fact that he had been repeatedly burgled. The police had done nothing to protect him and inevitably he snapped - how can you possibly tolerate the level of abuse that he had to and sit back and do nothing. When the law is redundant you take your own action. I think the most controversial thing about Tony Martin's actions was that he shot the intruder in the back as he was trying to make a run for it in his house. The Salford episode isn't clear yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 So one can catch a thief and then decide to imprison him and torture him daily. Proportionate? not really. Does anyone who breaks the law forfeit the right to all of societal rights? If I see some driving recklessly along my street which often has kids playing in it I could shoot him or pull him from the car and give him a good shoeing? No, and I am not advocating that it would be. But if you read the rest of my post regarding the mindset that I would be in in that situation given the human instinct, it is not unreasonable to expect that somebody might lash out and become violent if you have broken into their house, and I am arguing that that person's actions should not be considered criminal in those circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 No, and I am not advocating that it would be. But if you read the rest of my post regarding the mindset that I would be in in that situation given the human instinct, it is not unreasonable to expect that somebody might lash out and become violent if you have broken into their house, and I am arguing that that person's actions should not be considered criminal in those circumstances. Part of me feels the same. The problem though is that burglars will go in much more heavy handed if they are aware that the home owners are able to lash out without fear of reprisal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Well I have a bat by the bed anyone breaks into my house and threatens my family I'll use it. It's not like you can stop to ask four masked intruders weather they are going to harm you and your family or not. Anyone in that situation is going to act on instinct and adrenline it's fight or flight time. I'm not a violent person by nature but pushed into a corner like any animal I'll fight back. The thing that gets me is ordinary people are forced into these postions by criminals, forced to act on instinct and then punished when the crimnal comes off worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Part of me feels the same. The problem though is that burglars will go in much more heavy handed if they are aware that the home owners are able to lash out without fear of reprisal. That may be true, but I bet it would deter quite a few as well though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 About a year ago I woke up unexpectedly at about 2am and I could hear noises but it was quite a windy night and I initially put it down to the wind causing sounds in the chimneys or through another upstairs open window. I got up after a minute or so and put my bedroom light on and then the landing light on and peered down the stairs to see the front door was gently flapping ajar. I still thought that I had just not shut the door properly earlier and the wind had opened it and went downstairs to shut the front door. I went back to the kitchen to discover that door also wide open. I guess the intruder had left after I put the lights on upstairs. I shut the back door and locked it, not being brave enough to risk a clout over the head or worse by going into the garden and called the police. They arrived, had a look about and said there was nothing much they could do. Forensics were sent the next day with no result. I now have a bamboo cane under the bed though as well as extra door locks that I use! I had left the front door on the latch only and the bloke had got in with a credit card or similar by sliding the Yale open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebastian firefly Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 That may be true, but I bet it would deter quite a few as well though. so non murdering burglars need not apply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 That may be true, but I bet it would deter quite a few as well though. I'm not so sure. Kids stealing for drug money won't be deterred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 Like Baj says, only I'd give the knife to my Mrs & hide behind her. Seriously though, 1 stab wound then self defence, any more & you need to ask questions, although if the wound is in the back, presumably the burglar was running away, so I guess that is questionable. Based on the little I've heard about this, if the housholder was up for murder & I was on the jury, it'd be not guilty from me. Hmmm...but 1 stab wound might not be enough to stop some people, especially if they've got the adrenaline pumping from committing a crime. This has always been a dodgy area of the law I assumed (self-defence killings) and really we can't judge. If it is as clear cut as it seems though, then I hope the bloke who did the stabbing gets off scott free - I would do exactly the same in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 So one can catch a thief and then decide to imprison him and torture him daily. Proportionate? not really. Does anyone who breaks the law forfeit the right to all of societal rights? If I see some driving recklessly along my street which often has kids playing in it I could shoot him or pull him from the car and give him a good shoeing? Personally I think it's a sad state of affairs that people feel they need it spelt out so clearly. You should know what's right and what's wrong just through your gut feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sebastian firefly Posted 23 June, 2011 Share Posted 23 June, 2011 ive advised all my staff up to the level of under butler to execute with extreme prejedice anyone who contrevenes firefly property anyone without the appropriate documentation (in triplicate and signed by justice of the peace or above) will be shot on sight if you come come heavy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 24 June, 2011 Share Posted 24 June, 2011 Criminals appear to have all the "human rights" whereas victims appear to have hardly any despite what some politicans spout. I fully expect that householder to be charged with manslaughter. However after saying all that I am also the type that if anyone breaks into my home I will use anything and any method to totally bash the ba**ards and then concern myself with possible Court action. I am pleased to say we have an excellent solicitor and our local prosecution lot are not very good. I have personal experience of this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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