Stadium Developments

[Thedelldays]

But saying we will get 50k anytime soon is equally pointless as the sarcasm you point at

[adrian lord]

We could, with a bit of luck, success and good marketing become the regional (Wessex if you will) super-club, like say Newcastle are in the N. East. It would take 15 to 20 years. Then we might make 45-50k crowds.

[Wes Tender]

But saying we will get 50k anytime soon is equally pointless as the sarcasm you point at

 

But I didn't say that we will get 50k crowds anytime soon. I did indicate that I had some empathy with the position that Tamesaint took, one of gradual extension of the ground capacity in line with increased crowd growth as it happened.

[Tamesaint]

No, no, you're wrong. We are going to get crowds of 50k every week, because we can. There is no evidence to suggest we can, i just think we can because Chelsea only used to get 10,000 in 1984.

 

Christ. Yesterday you were banging on about crowds of 45k per week. Today it is 50k. What figure do we need to justify an expansion to 36/38k in your eyes? Any advances on 50k???

Edited 24 June, 2011 by Tamesaint

[monosaint]

I can't believe that people are not allowed to have a vision for the club and that should include Champions League. That's what drives the Charman, Manager, Players and many supporters. I can remember going to the dell in 1962 (or there abouts) to watch Saints play the mighty Liverpool in the old Second Division (yes, Liverpool were in the lower league). We beat them 2-0 and I remember Yates and St. John were playing for them and a certain Bill Shankly was their manager.

 

A quote from WIKEPEDIA "Shankly took charge of Liverpool when they were bottom of the Second Division but soon established them as one of the major forces in the English game."

 

 

Southampton and Liverpool are probably pretty similar in size and catchment, not forgetting you have Everton as well, so let's not dampen the enthusiasm and keep dreaming. Maybe it will become a reality..

[hypochondriac]

I can't believe that people are not allowed to have a vision for the club and that should include Champions League. That's what drives the Charman, Manager, Players and many supporters. I can remember going to the dell in 1962 (or there abouts) to watch Saints play the mighty Liverpool in the old Second Division (yes, Liverpool were in the lower league). We beat them 2-0 and I remember Yates and St. John were playing for them and a certain Bill Shankly was their manager.

 

A quote from WIKEPEDIA "Shankly took charge of Liverpool when they were bottom of the Second Division but soon established them as one of the major forces in the English game."

 

 

Southampton and Liverpool are probably pretty similar in size and catchment, not forgetting you have Everton as well, so let's not dampen the enthusiasm and keep dreaming. Maybe it will become a reality..

 

haaaaa! It's getting better...

[Avenue Saint]

third grade polition wannabes here trying to twist peoples words. If they had the power, they would probably still have us at the dell! lol

 

A major plus point is that someone who actually has the business acumen a la cortese, has cited it as an area for consideration and possible development in the future. But the same old characters singing from the same old broken record would shout you down on this place. With the right level of success of course its reasonable to envisage an average gate of 40k, why not?!

 

Cue all the short sighted narrow minded trolls to now to give a billion and one reasons why its sacreligious to even debate this issue...

 

If we make the prem I will bet that more seats to some extent, in one form or another will be on the agenda for Cortese.

[Avenue Saint]

*politician

[The Kraken]

I can't believe that people are not allowed to have a vision for the club and that should include Champions League. That's what drives the Charman, Manager, Players and many supporters. I can remember going to the dell in 1962 (or there abouts) to watch Saints play the mighty Liverpool in the old Second Division (yes, Liverpool were in the lower league). We beat them 2-0 and I remember Yates and St. John were playing for them and a certain Bill Shankly was their manager.

 

A quote from WIKEPEDIA "Shankly took charge of Liverpool when they were bottom of the Second Division but soon established them as one of the major forces in the English game."

 

 

Southampton and Liverpool are probably pretty similar in size and catchment, not forgetting you have Everton as well, so let's not dampen the enthusiasm and keep dreaming. Maybe it will become a reality..

 

Another quote from Wikipedia for you:

 

"Liverpool is a city and metropolitan borough of Merseyside,England, along the eastern side of the Mersey Estuary. As of 2001 Liverpool had a population of 435,500, and lies at the centre of the wider Liverpool UrbanArea, which had a population of 816,216.

 

Southampton has a city population of 234,000 and an urban population of 304,400."

[PhilippineSaint]

We could, with a bit of luck, success and good marketing become the regional (Wessex if you will) super-club, like say Newcastle are in the N. East. It would take 15 to 20 years. Then we might make 45-50k crowds.

 

And Terry Paine could be crowned king as he was borne in Winchester

[The Kraken]

third grade polition wannabes here trying to twist peoples words. If they had the power, they would probably still have us at the dell! lol

 

A major plus point is that someone who actually has the business acumen a la cortese, has cited it as an area for consideration and possible development in the future. But the same old characters singing from the same old broken record would shout you down on this place. With the right level of success of course its reasonable to envisage an average gate of 40k, why not?!

 

Cue all the short sighted narrow minded trolls to now to give a billion and one reasons why its sacreligious to even debate this issue...

 

If we make the prem I will bet that more seats to some extent, in one form or another will be on the agenda for Cortese.

 

Have you actually read what has been said?

 

No-one is saying its an impossibility in the future. But there is absolutely no evidence on past and current figures to suggest we need a stadium increase now. There's not even enough of a motive to start planning for it now, if you have a modicum of sense.

 

As you say, Cortese has business sense. Of course he will investigate the possibility of expansion, he'd be stupid not to. Thankfully what he won't do is ignore all current evidence to suggest how big we are as a club in favour of spending millions of pounds on extra seats that we don't need right now, or in the immediate future.

 

No-one can predict what will happen in 5 years time. We may be challenging near the top of the Premier League. We may still be in the Championship. But the fact remains; until we have had a few years of consistently proving we are far too big for our current stadium, the football club will thankfully not pander to the egotistical nonsense of a handful of fans who think we're bigger than we actually are.

[Micky]

It appears that much of this debate is really about the economics of expanding the stadium. That being so, perhaps soon there will be a cheaper, and for many of the fans, a much preferred option:

 

http://bcove.me/caqbid0i

 

I know some will say it will never happen, but it is obviously being debatted, so who knows.

[Wes Tender]

No-one is saying its an impossibility in the future. But there is absolutely no evidence on past and current figures to suggest we need a stadium increase now.

 

Aren't they? There are some on here who have been called idiots, airheads, morons, etc, for even daring to suggest that it is even remotely possible.

 

But also I don't believe I can remember anybody calling for an increase in stadium capacity right now either.

[The Kraken]

Aren't they? There are some on here who have been called idiots, airheads, morons, etc, for even daring to suggest that it is even remotely possible.

 

But also I don't believe I can remember anybody calling for an increase in stadium capacity right now either.

 

You only have to look at the early posts of the like of #22 and #24 to see that some are calling for a bigger stadium for as soon as we get back to the Premier League. Granted that's not immediately now, but the inference is that the club should be putting plans in place right now so that a bigger stadium is ready for us as soon as we achieve promotion.

 

And this from #41.

 

We cannot be content to sit back and assume that our 32k stadium is going to be big enough once we get back into the prem. If we do, we will find that in the same way as the Dell held us back in previous decades, SMS will impede our advancement in the future. We will need a stadium holding 40k+ and if SMS cannot be expanded (I was told that it could be enlarged relatively easily to 48k) we will need to find a stadium that will be big enough.

[Turkish]

Christ. Yesterday you were banging on about crowds of 45k per week. Today it is 50k. What figure do we need to justify an expansion to 36/38k in your eyes? Any advances on 50k???

 

Well if we are regularly filling a 45k stadium then surely we would need to expand then as well. God knows what the limits are on the crowds we could get. With our huge catchment area and potential and contined investment and a couple of champions league titles under our Armani belts we could get crowds of up to 100k regularly, if Barcelona can do it........

Edited 25 June, 2011 by Turkish

[Turkish]

That's right, throw in a bit of sarcasm to keep the tread going. It doesn't add anything constructive or intelligent, but when you said a few hours ago that you were getting bored with the thread, we didn't realise that you were going to add to the boredom factor yourself.

 

You're right, i dont need to when you have got that talent down to a fine art.

Edited 25 June, 2011 by Turkish

[mafiboy27]

Another quote from Wikipedia for you:

 

"Liverpool is a city and metropolitan borough of Merseyside,England, along the eastern side of the Mersey Estuary. As of 2001 Liverpool had a population of 435,500, and lies at the centre of the wider Liverpool UrbanArea, which had a population of 816,216.

 

Southampton has a city population of 234,000 and an urban population of 304,400."

 

You're forgetting Hampshire with the population of over 1.700.000. I think expansion with 10k is realistic.. I think the whole area around St.Mary's have huge potential. Would be nice with a project like Chelsea village around St.Mary's

[Turkish]

You're forgetting Hampshire with the population of over 1.700.000. I think expansion with 10k is realistic.. I think the whole area around St.Mary's have huge potential. Would be nice with a project like Chelsea village around St.Mary's

 

Dont forget there are no premier league clubs below the M4. We can draw support from all these areas as well, we are massive. Proof of this in my office in Reading there are 5 Saints fans in a company of about 100 people. SFC = the club 5% of the world supports.

[The Kraken]

You're forgetting Hampshire with the population of over 1.700.000. I think expansion with 10k is realistic.. I think the whole area around St.Mary's have huge potential. Would be nice with a project like Chelsea village around St.Mary's

 

I'm not forgetting Hampshire's size; I just don't think its entirely relevant given the geographical size of the county. You can drive 40 or 50 miles north of Southampton and still be in the county. But people born and raised in Basingstoke, Fleet etc simply are not going to have the same affinity to Saints as those from Southampton; in fact, Basingstoke and Fleet are closer to Reading than they are to us. And we also (unfortunately) share Hampshire with another Championship club.

 

You say that a 10K expansion is "realistic", but I'm not sure what you're basing this on other than a gut feeling. There is simply no evidence to support a claim that, at our Premier League peak in 2003 there were around 10,000 who couldn't get a ticket for games. Or that this would happen if we were to reach the Premier League again.

 

I'm not saying it won't happen in the future, as no-one can predict that. What I am saying is that its entirely pointless starting some form of clamour for a bigger ground right now, or as soon as we get back to the Premier League. First of all we have to get there; until we do our current stadium is too big for us. Then we will need to display over a period of a very minimum of 2 or 3 years that we are selling out the home allocation for just about every game. Then we need to have some form of accurate assessment of just how many customers are unable to get a ticket if they want one. Until we have a waiting list for season tickets and thousands of customers shut out every week, its a redundant exercise.

 

We are nowhere near that mark at the moment; at best we're 4 or 5 years away from it. Which is why I think talk of a bigger stadium is fantastically premature.

[Matthew Le God]

There is simply no evidence to support a claim that, at our Premier League peak in 2003 there were around 10,000 who couldn't get a ticket for games.

 

Lets flip that...

 

What evidence do you have that there isn't?

 

Also do you have access to the ticketing database to view numbers of unique customer purchases in the home end? And also how many customers were turned away. Cortese does and he has decided along with over bits of evidence not in the public domain that the club can support averages over 40k.

Edited 25 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[hypochondriac]

Lets flip that...

 

What evidence do you have that there isn't?

 

Also do you have access to the ticketing database to view numbers of unique customer purchases in the home end? Cortese does and he has decided along with over bits of evidence not in the public domain that the club can support averages over 40k.

 

No. You don't expand a stadium based on there being no evidence against something.

[Matthew Le God]

No. You don't expand a stadium based on there being no evidence against something.

 

I didn't say there was no evidence for it though.

 

Read the last paragraph.

[Turkish]

Lets flip that...

 

What evidence do you have that there isn't?

 

Also do you have access to the ticketing database to view numbers of unique customer purchases in the home end? And also how many customers were turned away. Cortese does and he has decided along with over bits of evidence not in the public domain that the club can support averages over 40k.

 

Please explain where these missing 16,000 fans were in April 2009, with the club about to go to the wall and needing every penny it could, only 24,000 inc away fans bothered to turn up.

[Matthew Le God]

Please explain where these missing 16,000 fans were in April 2009, with the club about to go to the wall and needing every penny it could, only 24,000 inc away fans bothered to turn up.

 

That is what "glory supporters" do. They don't turn up when times are bad. What they do is flock in large numbers when times are good.

[The Kraken]

Lets flip that...

 

What evidence do you have that there isn't?

 

Also do you have access to the ticketing database to view numbers of unique customer purchases in the home end? And also how many customers were turned away. Cortese does and he has decided along with over bits of evidence not in the public domain that the club can support averages over 40k.

 

Where has Cortese said this?

 

And the "evidence" that I have, I have already provided you with earlier in this thread. We did not have season ticket sales above 23K, fact. Over a 4 year period in the Premier League we did not sell out a very significant number of games, fact.

Edited 25 June, 2011 by The Kraken

[Joesaint]

I'm not forgetting Hampshire's size; I just don't think its entirely relevant given the geographical size of the county. You can drive 40 or 50 miles north of Southampton and still be in the county. But people born and raised in Basingstoke, Fleet etc simply are not going to have the same affinity to Saints as those from Southampton; in fact, Basingstoke and Fleet are closer to Reading than they are to us. And we also (unfortunately) share Hampshire with another Championship club.

 

You say that a 10K expansion is "realistic", but I'm not sure what you're basing this on other than a gut feeling. There is simply no evidence to support a claim that, at our Premier League peak in 2003 there were around 10,000 who couldn't get a ticket for games. Or that this would happen if we were to reach the Premier League again.

 

I'm not saying it won't happen in the future, as no-one can predict that. What I am saying is that its entirely pointless starting some form of clamour for a bigger ground right now, or as soon as we get back to the Premier League. First of all we have to get there; until we do our current stadium is too big for us. Then we will need to display over a period of a very minimum of 2 or 3 years that we are selling out the home allocation for just about every game. Then we need to have some form of accurate assessment of just how many customers are unable to get a ticket if they want one. Until we have a waiting list for season tickets and thousands of customers shut out every week, its a redundant exercise.

 

We are nowhere near that mark at the moment; at best we're 4 or 5 years away from it. Which is why I think talk of a bigger stadium is fantastically premature.

 

 

I used to live in Andover and while there, I knew loads of saints fan's. I agree that any further north and youll get more 'Reading' fans but within Andover, Winchester and Sailsbury I think you have alot of potential as I've lived in all 3 places and it really is made up of loads of saints fans. When you add that to all the villages in between and Romsey, Eastleigh, New forest (east) I recon you COULD have alot of potential, in time our fanbase will grow with success.

 

COYS

[Matthew Le God]

Where has Cortese said this?

 

From someone at one of the "Cortese dinners"...

 

They feel that we can get crowds of 45k on a regular basis once back in the prem.

 

Also in the BBC interview last year Cortese doesn't rule out the possibility of a new stadium if it can't be done at St Mary's and that they have been making plans for St Mary's. Now there is no point moving to a new stadium if it is only 36k or 38k. That is a lot of expense for a small capacity increase from the current 32k. To make it worthwhile it would have to be over 40k.

 

It is very unlikely there will be a new stadium, but the fact they talk about it as an alternative in a worst case scenario for improvements at St Mary's not able to happen, suggests that any increase in capacity would be large.

Edited 25 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[hypochondriac]

We will never get 45k regulars for at least a generation. It simply won't happen.

[The Kraken]

From someone at one of the "Cortese dinners"...

 

 

 

Also in the BBC interview last year Cortese doesn't rule out the possibility of a new stadium if it can't be done at St Mary's and that they have been making plans for St Mary's. Now there is no point moving to a new stadium if it is only 36k or 38k. That is a lot of expense for a small capacity increase from the current 32k. To make it worthwhile it would have to be over 40k.

 

I don't doubt for a minute that Cortese will have investigated the possibilities of a capacity increase or stadium move, and he'd be utterly stupid to come out and say "we're ruling out the possibility of a bigger stadium". He's the owner and will want to know what the potential future scenarios could be.

 

But that's not what I'm talking about. It simply makes no logical or business sense to increase our capacity until there is evidence that there is the demand to fill such a new stadium. And despite what you want to believe, we have not seen that evidence in our past, and it doesn't look like we're going to see it in the next year at least. Until then, a stadium increase is just talk.

[Turkish]

That is what "glory supporters" do. They don't turn up when times are bad. What they do is flock in large numbers when times are good.

 

But arguably this was our most important game ever. The club were begging for money and to sell out. Those 8,000 extra sold seats would have brought another £200k into the club, I'd have thought this clubs massive fan base and catchment area coupled with the club pleading with people to turn out would have encouraged everyone to come out for this one, 32k would be easy to sell out for a game such as this when we have this many sitting at home on saturdays at the moment. in addition to the fans that do go.

[Turkish]

Where has Cortese said this?

 

And the "evidence" that I have, I have already provided you with earlier in this thread. We did not have season ticket sales above 23K, fact. Over a 4 year period in the Premier League we did not sell out a very significant number of games, fact.

 

and those we did sell out we weren't turning 8-10k away.

[mafiboy27]

I'm not forgetting Hampshire's size; I just don't think its entirely relevant given the geographical size of the county. You can drive 40 or 50 miles north of Southampton and still be in the county. But people born and raised in Basingstoke, Fleet etc simply are not going to have the same affinity to Saints as those from Southampton; in fact, Basingstoke and Fleet are closer to Reading than they are to us. And we also (unfortunately) share Hampshire with another Championship club.

 

You say that a 10K expansion is "realistic", but I'm not sure what you're basing this on other than a gut feeling. There is simply no evidence to support a claim that, at our Premier League peak in 2003 there were around 10,000 who couldn't get a ticket for games. Or that this would happen if we were to reach the Premier League again.

 

I'm not saying it won't happen in the future, as no-one can predict that. What I am saying is that its entirely pointless starting some form of clamour for a bigger ground right now, or as soon as we get back to the Premier League. First of all we have to get there; until we do our current stadium is too big for us. Then we will need to display over a period of a very minimum of 2 or 3 years that we are selling out the home allocation for just about every game. Then we need to have some form of accurate assessment of just how many customers are unable to get a ticket if they want one. Until we have a waiting list for season tickets and thousands of customers shut out every week, its a redundant exercise.

 

We are nowhere near that mark at the moment; at best we're 4 or 5 years away from it. Which is why I think talk of a bigger stadium is fantastically premature.

 

I can agree with many things you're saying. At the moment it's better to have a nearly packed stadium in the CCC, which I think will happen if we stay near the play-off or even in it, than to expand and have a 50-60%ish full stadium. Of course it's too early to start the expansion now, but if we're going to fullfill the 5 year plan Cortese have stated, I don't see why we can't plan the next level now. My thoughts is based on Cortese's visions. Of course if we're satisfied surviving in the PL every year, our stadium is big enough. If however we're setting sights on top 8, I do believe a 10k expansion still is realistic, and more economic sound than 5k. Also it takes some 2-4 years to plan, get approval and build so why not plan now, and start the expansion as soon we're ready for PL

[Matthew Le God]

I don't doubt for a minute that Cortese will have investigated the possibilities of a capacity increase or stadium move, and he'd be utterly stupid to come out and say "we're ruling out the possibility of a bigger stadium". He's the owner and will want to know what the potential future scenarios could be.

 

But that's not what I'm talking about. It simply makes no logical or business sense to increase our capacity until there is evidence that there is the demand to fill such a new stadium. And despite what you want to believe, we have not seen that evidence in our past, and it doesn't look like we're going to see it in the next year at least. Until then, a stadium increase is just talk.

 

As you keep ignoring it, can you address each of these please...

 

1) Are you privy to the same information Cortese has in regard to the ticketing database over the last 10+ years at Saints?

 

i.e. do you know how quickly many of the games sold out in the Premier League, how many unique customers there are on the database in the last decade, how many people were turned away because the game sold out etc etc

 

This information isn't in the public domain, and provides evidence that you claim there isn't.

 

2) Many games at St Mary's between 2001 and 2005 sold out a week or two before the matchday. Why do you think this means the club couldn't have sold more?

 

You can't sell more than 32k tickets in a stadium that holds 32k. Saints maxed out on many occasions which is good evidence the stadium is too small.

[Matthew Le God]

But arguably this was our most important game ever. The club were begging for money and to sell out. Those 8,000 extra sold seats would have brought another £200k into the club, I'd have thought this clubs massive fan base and catchment area coupled with the club pleading with people to turn out would have encouraged everyone to come out for this one, 32k would be easy to sell out for a game such as this when we have this many sitting at home on saturdays at the moment. in addition to the fans that do go.

 

Again you aren't grasping the concept of a glory supporter.

 

Saints in League One averaged circa 22k for both seasons. For some games over the last two seasons it was as low as 16k/17k. Yet on the day they knew promotion was going to happen the glory supporters flooded back and it was a sell out long in advance of matchday and many fans were left unable to get in. Have you forgotten the numerous fans that were posting on this forum upset they didn't have tickets for the Walsall game because it sold out?

 

The Premier League will grab the attention of these glory supporters from day one. As it has shown to have done in the past for Saints, and at numerous other clubs. People that rarely went to a League One game would be willing to buy a Premier League season ticket. The same happened in reverse as Saints fell through the leagues.

Edited 25 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

Of course I don't haave the ticketing database. I am going by the evidence to hand, which shows that we have failed to sell out the home allocation on many times even when at our peak.

 

And I think you must have difficulties in reading what I've previously said if you think I've said we would never sell more than 32k. I have never said that.

 

What I have said is this. There is plenty of evidence to show that we couldn't sell out the home allocation in previous years. I'm not going to go back over the figures I've previously provided, but they show a very significant proportion of games did not sell out. I've also said that the most season tickets we have sold is 23k. So there has never been a waiting list and plenty of fans of who cannot get an ST. I have also previously said that, for the big games, we definitely could have sold more than 32K. However, I have clarified that and said that any assessment of how many more tickets we could sell is purely hypothetical. And (I've previously said this so I'm continually going over old ground) I think it is telling that some people have come into this thread and explained that they live far away, but on the occasions they came back to try to see a game they very rarely had problems in getting a ticket.

 

If the evidence does exist, I would ask why the club are not already expanding the stadium in line with their 5 year plan. We're upgrading the training ground, after all. A stadium expansion would likely take 1 or 2 years, so it would fit in with our timescale to start building now.

[Turkish]

Again you aren't grasping the concept of a glory supporter.

 

Saints in League One averaged circa 22k for both seasons. For some games over the last two seasons it was as low as 16k/17k. Yet on the day they knew promotion was going to happen the glory supporters flooded back and it was a sell out long in advance of matchday and many fans were left unable to get in. Have you forgotten the numerous fans that were posting on this forum upset they didn't have tickets for the Walsall game because it sold out?

 

The Premier League will grab the attention of these glory supporters from day one. As it has shown to have done in the past for Saints, and at numerous other clubs. People that rarely went to a League One game would be willing to buy a Premier League season ticket. The same happened in reverse as Saints fell through the leagues.

 

No, i'm fully aware what a glory fan is, there were 24,000 of them at Wembley last year. I'd just have thought with such a huge fan base that we have this lot would also come out of the woodwork to help save the club. Cleary their £25 was better spent going for a cream tea in the new forest that day.

 

Now what evidence do you have that we were turning 8,000 fans away every week last time we were in the premier league, just like we would be if we dont expand SMS in the future.

[Matthew Le God]

Of course I don't haave the ticketing database. I am going by the evidence to hand, which shows that we have failed to sell out the home allocation on many times even when at our peak.

 

And I think you must have difficulties in reading what I've previously said if you think I've said we would never sell more than 32k. I have never said that.

 

What I have said is this. There is plenty of evidence to show that we couldn't sell out the home allocation in previous years. I'm not going to go back over the figures I've previously provided, but they show a very significant proportion of games did not sell out.

 

No, what you did was show that the least attractive 25% didn't sell out. However the remaining 75% of fixtures in the Premier League are a lot more attractive. The top 25% of that, being extremely attractive and the number of tickets you could sell for those would more than make up for the lower figures of the least attractive games.

 

For example, just say Saints St Mary's was 45k capacity sold 45k for a game vs Man Utd and 28k for a game vs Wigan. That averages out at roughly 37k.

 

Compare that to how it would be currently. Saints sell 32k for Man Utd and 28k for Wigan. That averages out at a 30k.

 

very rarely had problems in getting a ticket

 

As I've said on numerous occasions now, this is nonsense. Games in the Premier LEague often sold out long in advance of matchday and many were left unable to get a ticket.

 

If the evidence does exist, I would ask why the club are not already expanding the stadium in line with their 5 year plan. We're upgrading the training ground, after all. A stadium expansion would likely take 1 or 2 years, so it would fit in with our timescale to start building now.

 

I don't see how you can compare the process of expanding a stadium by thousands on its capacity with a training ground upgrade. The stadium is a far more complex issue and has many more issues surrounding it as regard to planning applications. Staplewood although it will be bigger will see little impact on the surrounding area as all it will be is a larger two storey bulding in place of a one storey building in an already fenced off area.

[Matthew Le God]

No, i'm fully aware what a glory fan is, there were 24,000 of them at Wembley last year. I'd just have thought with such a huge fan base that we have this lot would also come out of the woodwork to help save the club. Cleary their £25 was better spent going for a cream tea in the new forest that day.

 

That is exactly the point, many fans aren't that attached to the club in the same way the hardcore fans are. They turn up when the times are good, desert them when times are bad. This is the same for every club. What is impressive though is that Saints had a lot more fans turn up during those times of points deductions and going into admin than many other clubs in the similar circumstances.

 

Now what evidence do you have that we were turning 8,000 fans away every week last time we were in the premier league, just like we would be if we dont expand SMS in the future.

 

The "sold out" sign on the electric board by the ticket office was a regular sight at St Mary's between 2001 and 2005. Often a week or two before the match. At that point people stopped trying to buy tickets because there were none. You can't sell more than 32k in a 32k seater stadium (often that figure was lower due to segregation).

[Turkish]

/\ you can sell more than 23,000 season tickets though, we didnt.

[Matthew Le God]

/\ you can sell more than 23,000 season tickets though, we didnt.

 

Why have you ignored all of my points that counter yours?

 

23k season tickets is a lot in any case. I don't know why you think it isn't.

 

23k seaosn tickets is...

 

- more than the total averages (including away fans) of 3 Premier League teams in 2010/11

- within 4k of the total averages (including away fans) of a further 6 Premier League teams in 2010/11

 

That is half the top flight last season!

[Turkish]

Why have you ignored all of my points that counter yours?

 

23k season tickets is a lot in any case. I don't know why you think it isn't.

 

23k seaosn tickets is...

 

- more than the total averages (including away fans) of 3 Premier League teams in 2010/11

- within 4k of the total averages (including away fans) of a further 6 Premier League teams in 2010/11

 

That is half the top flight last season!

 

23k season tickets does not equal 40,000+ fans and a need to expand the stadium though does it.

[The Kraken]

No, what you did was show that the least attractive 25% didn't sell out. However the remaining 75% of fixtures in the Premier League are a lot more attractive. The top 25% of that, being extremely attractive and the number of tickets you could sell for those would more than make up for the lower figures of the least attractive games.

 

For example, just say Saints St Mary's was 45k capacity sold 45k for a game vs Man Utd and 28k for a game vs Wigan. That averages out at roughly 37k.

 

Compare that to how it would be currently. Saints sell 32k for Man Utd and 28k for Wigan. That averages out at a 30k.

 

 

As I've said on numerous occasions now, this is nonsense. Games in the Premier LEague often sold out long in advance of matchday and many were left unable to get a ticket.

 

 

 

I don't see how you can compare the process of expanding a stadium by thousands on its capacity with a training ground upgrade. The stadium is a far more complex issue and has many more issues surrounding it as regard to planning applications. Staplewood although it will be bigger will see little impact on the surrounding area as all it will be is a larger two storey bulding in place of a one storey building in an already fenced off area.

 

You seem to dismiss certain facts and instead provide complete speculation and hypothesis of your own. You refer to games selling out long in advance yet offer no evidence to back up your claims. You say "many" fans were unable to get a ticket yet provide no indication of how many. And then you pluck a potential figure of 45K fans turning up to watch Man Utd.

 

You say that we only failed to sell out for a quarter of the least attractive games. First of all, without being in posession of the exact figures I would suggest it was more than that we didn't sell out for. The 25% figure referred to the number of games that dipped below 30K. Here’s the figures I previously provided.

 

In 2001/02 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

In 2002/03 we had 6 home league games with less than 31K (that's just about onethird).

In 2003/04 we had 1 home league game with less than 31K.

In 2004/05 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

 

Now it’s impossible to tell from those figures whether the attendance was diminished through the away team not filling their allocation, or whether they had a smaller allocation but we couldn’t sell the home allocation. But the signs don’timmediately look good. And we have the 25% of games figure where the attendance was below 30K.

 

As for your last post; of course the stadium expansion issue is complex. But if the evidence is indeed there that we need a bigger ground, and if it takes a lot of time and planning to get it sorted, I'm wondering why we have not started this by now so that by the time we get to the Premier League within our 5 year plan we can maximise revenues from those 45K crowds you talk about straight away.

 

I have had a consistent approach throughout this thread, but I'll repeat it for you. If we get back to the Premier League, and if we're selling out week in week out, then that will be evidence for an increase in capacity. Until then, I think we've got bigger fish to fry trying to sell out our current stadium.

 

Now I know you have an overwhelming desire to be seen to right about anything and everything. But in this case, I simply do not believe that there is any worthwhile evidence for the club to proceed in any substantial manner towards achieving a higher capacity of stadium (beyond actually talking about the fact that they're not ruling it out). Not yet. It may well happen in the future, I’m not for a minute saying it won't happen, but I think if the club have any sense whatsoever they will gauge supporter levels only when we get back to the Premier League, and then over a period of at a bare minimum of 2 or 3 years.

[Thedelldays]

again...how do you propose we pay for the extra 8-12k seats in the short term...

i see the raise in ST prices went down well this year..!!!

[Matthew Le God]

23k season tickets does not equal 40,000+ fans and a need to expand the stadium though does it.

 

Everton 26k season ticket holders - want to move to a 50k stadium

Tottenham 25k season ticket holders - want to move to a 60k stadium

West Ham 26k season ticket holders - are moving to a 60k stadium

Wolves 20k season ticket holders - are building a 37k stadium (possibly upto 50k)

 

23k season ticket holders for Saints between 2001 and 2005 to move to a 45k stadium doesn't look too out of place now does it?

Edited 25 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[hypochondriac]

Everton 26k season ticket holders - want to move to a 50k stadium

Tottenham 25k season ticket holders - want to move to a 60k stadium

West Ham 26k season ticket holders - are moving to a 60k stadium

Wolves 20k season ticket holders - are building a 37k stadium (possibly upto 50k)

 

23k season ticket holders for Saints between 2001 and 2005 to move to a 45k stadium doesn't look too out of place now does it?

 

Doesn't spurs have a huge waiting list? Something we don't have.

[Turkish]

Everton 26k season ticket holders - want to move to a 50k stadium

Tottenham 25k season ticket holders - want to move to a 60k stadium

West Ham 26k season ticket holders - are moving to a 60k stadium

Wolves 20k season ticket holders - are building a 37k stadium (possibly upto 50k)

 

23k season ticket holders for Saints between 2001 and 2005 to move to a 45k stadium doesn't look too out of place now does it?

 

Tottenham have a waiting list of 13,000 for season tickets. Saints in 01-05 had a waiting list of 0.

[Barry the Badger]

Everton 26k season ticket holders - want to move to a 50k stadium

Tottenham 25k season ticket holders - want to move to a 60k stadium

West Ham 26k season ticket holders - are moving to a 60k stadium

Wolves 20k season ticket holders - are building a 37k stadium (possibly upto 50k)

 

23k season ticket holders for Saints between 2001 and 2005 to move to a 45k stadium doesn't look too out of place now does it?

 

Just because those other clubs are doing it does not mean they're all right.

 

Do you really think West Ham are making a good decision in moving to a 60'000 seater stadium?

[Matthew Le God]

Doesn't spurs have a huge waiting list?

 

Tottenham have a waiting list of 13,000 for season tickets. Saints in 01-05 had a waiting list of 0.

 

Hence the extra 15k on the stadium size.

[Thedelldays]

Just because those other clubs are doing it does not mean they're all right.

 

Do you really think West Ham are making a good decision in moving to a 60'000 seater stadium?

 

also, easy to do when its built for you

[Turkish]

Hence the extra 15k on the stadium size.

 

Well that is the right thing to do then isn't it. They are already selling out every week, 36,000 with a 13,000 waiting list = 49,000.

 

Saints 23,000 season tickets 0 waiting list, selling just under capacity every week = oh..........