Stadium Developments

[Turkish]

Okay them you clowns, lets try this another way. Here are my reasons why i dont think we will get average crowds of 45k.

 

1. Because only 6 clubs average more than 40k a week,(yes i appreciate a couple are hampered by the size of the ground) Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Newcastle. Are we a club of comparable size to them?

2. laughable, Chelsea have been used as an example of how a clubs support can grow due to their poor support in the late 80's. To this i say Chelseas record crowd was 82,000, they have always been a huge club and the support was always there. Compare this to Saints record crowd of 31,044 prior to the move to SMS and 32k since. Our fan bases are simply not comparable.

3. In our golden period when we finished second in the league and had the European footballer of the league playing for us, our average crowd was still only around the 20,000 mark.

4. In our darkest day when the club was about to go to the wall and we were desperate for cash, only around 24,000 bothered to turn up, despite every penny counting and this being made clear by SFC administrators.

5. When we were selling out St Marys in the early 00's everyone that wanted a ticket got one. Yes we sold out most games, just about. There was no waiting list for season tickets, no stories of thousands being turned away weekly, it was just a case of if you wanted to go then you just had to make a bit more effort. Compare this to Tottenham with a capacity of 36k who have a waiting list said to number 13,000.

6. We simply do not currently have 25,000 extra fans sitting at home on a saturday waiting to come out of the woodwork for if and when we get promoted.

 

Now lets hear your reasons why we will get 45k+. "because i think we can" and "we definitely will because we sold about 31k 5 years ago" do not count as factual evidence as to why we can go from a reasonably well support championship club to one of the top 5 best supported clubs in England.

[Turkish]

Which English clubs do you think could do the same? Which English clubs would average 22k in the 3rd tier? Not many is the answer.

 

 

 

Again... four consecutive seasons of 30k+ averages suggests that it would be achievable. Yes, 2-3,000 were away fans. But you can only ever get 32k in a 32k stadium at max. So why do you think it is so far fetched to get 30k Saints fans regularly to St Marys?

 

WTF are you on about now? I said we;d get more than 30k, even high 30's for big games, but if you think we are going to get 45k every week you're deluded.

 

And Leeds, Man City & Norwich have all averaged bigger gates than us recently in third tier.

[Thedelldays]

Go on Turkish

[Paul Chuckle]

Go on Turkish

[um pahars]

Okay them you clowns, lets try this another way. Here are my reasons why i dont think we will get average crowds of 45k.

 

1. Because only 6 clubs average more than 40k a week,(yes i appreciate a couple are hampered by the size of the ground) Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Newcastle. Are we a club of comparable size to them?

2. laughable, Chelsea have been used as an example of how a clubs support can grow due to their poor support in the late 80's. To this i say Chelseas record crowd was 82,000, they have always been a huge club and the support was always there. Compare this to Saints record crowd of 31,044 prior to the move to SMS and 32k since. Our fan bases are simply not comparable.

3. In our golden period when we finished second in the league and had the European footballer of the league playing for us, our average crowd was still only around the 20,000 mark.

4. In our darkest day when the club was about to go to the wall and we were desperate for cash, only around 24,000 bothered to turn up, despite every penny counting and this being made clear by SFC administrators.

5. When we were selling out St Marys in the early 00's everyone that wanted a ticket got one. Yes we sold out most games, just about. There was no waiting list for season tickets, no stories of thousands being turned away weekly, it was just a case of if you wanted to go then you just had to make a bit more effort. Compare this to Tottenham with a capacity of 36k who have a waiting list said to number 13,000.

6. We simply do not currently have 25,000 extra fans sitting at home on a saturday waiting to come out of the woodwork for if and when we get promoted.

 

Now lets hear your reasons why we will get 45k+. "because i think we can" and "we definitely will because we sold about 31k 5 years ago" do not count as factual evidence as to why we can go from a reasonably well support championship club to one of the top 5 best supported clubs in England.

 

All rather reasonable to me and have to say your reply regarding the sell outs in those first seasons at St Mary's spot on.

 

We did sell out for many games, but very often as you say we only just about sold out (certainly not weeks in advance). As you say, apart from a few high profile games, it was always possible to get a ticket, you just had to plan ahead and there were no massive lock outs or long lists of those dying to get season tickets.

 

I'm sure for some games we could get a gate of 40,000 and perhaps with hindsight a 36,000 stadium might have been better (that said I only thought we'd average 26,000ish at SMS & thought Stoneham would have been a good size!!!!). But I do think regular gates of 40,000 are beyond us and additionally given that SMS is perhaps only a few thousand shy of what we could pull in on a regular basis, then finances will preculde any minor uplift in capcity.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by um pahars

[Paul Chuckle]

Um pahars - nail on head

[slickmick]

If we did become a top four team with Champions league football, what do you all think our average gates would be then ? After all this seems to be Cortese's ultimate aim.

[sandwichsaint]

If we did become a top four team with Champions league football, what do you all think our average gates would be then ? After all this seems to be Cortese's ultimate aim.

 

Avg gate = 32k

 

Prices = Season ticket £5050 - £800, Matchday £35 -£50

 

Prediction - Saints will get to the CL (scoff), before they get a new or bigger ground.

[Micky]

Interesting debate chaps, but I'm 'fence sitting' on this one for now. What I would say though is that I rarely make games as I have lived out of the country since the late 70's. However, whenever I have travelled back I always tried to get tickets for games and can only remember once when I failed to get one - and always through official channels. I was also one of the JCL's who easily managed to get a ticket for the JPT as well, having not been to a single game all season. Therefore I think that Turkish has a point at this juncture in time - perhaps the demand is not as high as some percieve.

 

I would like to see us expand and grow, but I think that stadium expansion should be explored but put on the back burner until we have achieved the 5 year plan aim first. If we are successful with that goal, then perhaps we will be in a position to consider our fanbase numbers.

 

Don't forget - at the end of the day - once planning permission is granted, it's possible to expand or even build a new stadium in a relatively short space of time, so all of this could be achieved fairly quickly. But it's a decission that has to be right at the time - I would hate to see us playing in the Premiership with row upon row of empty seats every week, ala Wigan and a few others.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Micky

[sandwichsaint]

Extra zero in there ... Season Tickets £550 - £800 (tho there appear to some on here that would pay 5k for a ST or to see Saints in a bigger ground or in the CL).

[Tamesaint]

Okay them you clowns, lets try this another way. Here are my reasons why i dont think we will get average crowds of 45k....

 

In our golden period when we finished second in the league and had the European footballer of the league playing for us, our average crowd was still only around the 20,000 mark.

 

Thank God you weren't around 15 years ago. If Rupert Lowe had had this sort of advice then, he would never have gone ahead with SMS.

 

And by the way Turkish, I may disagree with you but I am not "f u c king mental" and nor am I a clown, Why don't you tone it down a little ??

[Turkish]

Thank God you weren't around 15 years ago. If Rupert Lowe had had this sort of advice then, he would never have gone ahead with SMS.

 

And by the way Turkish, I may disagree with you but I am not "f u c king mental" and nor am I a clown, Why don't you tone it down a little ??

 

I was, i was also around 20 years ago and can remember this massive club getting crowds of 9,000 in the Branfoot era and anything over 15k was considered a good crowd. Maybe that's why i'm a little bit skeptical of all this people claiming we would easily get 45k+ every week.

[View From The Top]

Only class 1 idiots think we'd get 45K.

 

'kin mental idea.

[Tamesaint]

I was, i was also around 20 years ago and can remember this massive club getting crowds of 9,000 in the Branfoot era and anything over 15k was considered a good crowd. Maybe that's why i'm a little bit skeptical of all this people claiming we would easily get 45k+ every week.

 

You keep banging on about 45k a week but that is not the way that expansion of SMS would happen.

 

We can currently hold 32k. There will be several games this coming season when that will not be enough. Not every game but several.

 

When we get promoted again, we will find that the majority of games see more than 30k fans (effectively a sell out once segregation / empty away seats are taken into account). Many games would sell out if we had 35 - 40 k seats.... and that is what will get the expansion plans dusted down and implemented. It will be one stand at a time raising the capacity from 32k to say 38k and once ( I daresay you would say if) 38k is not enough, another stand wiill be extended.

 

It will be a gradual expansion but will seem as natural in the future as the move from The Dekll to SMS seems natural now.

[sotonian]

the cost of stadium expansion rules this out as a non starter,

 

if we added 15,000 to the average gate (which i don't believe we would) it would take years before the club had a financial advantage of the extra capacity

[Tamesaint]

the cost of stadium expansion rules this out as a non starter,

 

if we added 15,000 to the average gate (which i don't believe we would) it would take years before the club had a financial advantage of the extra capacity

 

 

Why is a gradual expansion like this financially OK for other teams but not for us?? Wolves are expanding this summer. Brighton have already started to talk about expanding at their new stadium. Why is it good enough for them but not for us?

[Neil]

the cost of stadium expansion rules this out as a non starter,

 

if we added 15,000 to the average gate (which i don't believe we would) it would take years before the club had a financial advantage of the extra capacity

 

The cost would almost certainly make it a non starter if we had no financial backer. With the Liebher Estate the cost may not be an issue, that we do not know for sure.

 

I don't think many people are saying that we're going to add 15,000 to the gate on average any time soon, but a 40,000 capacity would be required in the premiership and we would be capable of filling that albeit not for every game.

[CB Fry]

Okay them you clowns, lets try this another way. Here are my reasons why i dont think we will get average crowds of 45k.

 

1. Because only 6 clubs average more than 40k a week,(yes i appreciate a couple are hampered by the size of the ground) Man United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Newcastle. Are we a club of comparable size to them?

2. laughable, Chelsea have been used as an example of how a clubs support can grow due to their poor support in the late 80's. To this i say Chelseas record crowd was 82,000, they have always been a huge club and the support was always there. Compare this to Saints record crowd of 31,044 prior to the move to SMS and 32k since. Our fan bases are simply not comparable.

3. In our golden period when we finished second in the league and had the European footballer of the league playing for us, our average crowd was still only around the 20,000 mark.

4. In our darkest day when the club was about to go to the wall and we were desperate for cash, only around 24,000 bothered to turn up, despite every penny counting and this being made clear by SFC administrators.

5. When we were selling out St Marys in the early 00's everyone that wanted a ticket got one. Yes we sold out most games, just about. There was no waiting list for season tickets, no stories of thousands being turned away weekly, it was just a case of if you wanted to go then you just had to make a bit more effort. Compare this to Tottenham with a capacity of 36k who have a waiting list said to number 13,000.

6. We simply do not currently have 25,000 extra fans sitting at home on a saturday waiting to come out of the woodwork for if and when we get promoted.

 

Now lets hear your reasons why we will get 45k+. "because i think we can" and "we definitely will because we sold about 31k 5 years ago" do not count as factual evidence as to why we can go from a reasonably well support championship club to one of the top 5 best supported clubs in England.

 

 

Amen to this.

 

I think the only thing I would add is this:

 

Some clubs in the Prem currently on 40,000 plus average attendances that have recently been in the championship:

 

Sunderland averaged betwwen 27 - 31k in their 3 recent seasons.

Newcastle managed 43k in the CCC

Manchester City 33k.

 

Our best performance in the second tier is 23k with an average 17.8k in the dim and distant past of two seasons ago.

 

 

So, let's stop starting our hypothesis from "when we are an established top 6 prem club".

Let's start today. In the real world.

 

No club in the modern Prem club has ever added 20,000 regular fans following promotion.

 

If you think we can average 40,000 in the Premier League then we must average 30,000 fans in the Championship.

 

After all, we have the population and the passion and the catchment area and all the rest of the ******** spouted out on this thread for the last couple of days.

 

It's filling the ground for the crap games the proves we need more seats.

 

So Wes Tender and Mathew Le God and the rest of the airheads, see you next season.

30,000 week in, week out in the second tier.

 

Just like Newcastle. And Sunderland. And Man City.

 

30,000 week in week out.

 

Easy. Why?

 

Our population is bigger. Cortese is investing. We're on the up. Chelsea didn't sell many seats in 1983. Spurs want a new ground. Bolton have lots of clubs nearby. Oh, and Fulham have lots of clubs nearby. Something about our catchment area. We sold 30,000 against Southend once. They said people couldn't climb Everest.

 

All these reasons mean we can easily sell 30,000 week in, week out in the Championship.

 

30,000 week in, week out next season. Just like Sunderland and Man City.

 

And don't try and make excuses as to why we can't hit 30,000 next season because, after all, some people said they couldn't climb Everest.

 

Start counting those ticket stubs chaps. Bring it on.

[CB Fry]

Originally Posted by Wes Tender:

 

A few narrow-minded individuals on here do not have the imagination to accept that such a thing is possible, possibly because they have become blinkered by the club's history of mediocrity.

 

As I am officially no longer narrow minded, and I now truly believe that next season we will average 30,000 no problem at all. I have the imagination because I am no longer blinkered by the club's history of mediocrity which until now I foolishly interpreted as the cold hard facts of how many people are prepared to pay money to watch Southampton Football Club, including our waiting list of absolute zero for season tickets at any point in our history, ever.

 

I have seen the light.

 

30,000 average next season, easy. Are you with me?

[Matthew Le God]

As you are here CB Fry, what did you make of Blackpool's relegation that you assured me wouldn't happen? Predictions at their best...

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Saint_clark]

As a lower Prem team we'd probably average 35k if the stadium allowed it.

If we could get into the top 6 in consecutive seasons we'd probably average 40k if the stadium allowed it.

This is all however a long, long way away.

[CB Fry]

As you are here CB Fry, what did you make of Blackpool's relegation that you assured me wouldn't happen? Predictions at their best...

 

Same as you lamely mocking the entire british press for 'unfounded rumours and speculation' about pardew's future at saints. We were both pathetically, pathetically wrong. But i care about blackpool as much as i care about peterboro expanding their ground. Not at all.

[Matthew Le God]

Same as you lamely mocking the entire british press for 'unfounded rumours and speculation' about pardew's future at saints. We were both pathetically, pathetically wrong.

 

What was I "pathetically wrong" about in regard to Alan Pardew? Did the press (or indeed anyone) ever substantiate the rumours about his sacking with anything even bordering on credible?

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[John B]

As a lower Prem team we'd probably average 35k if the stadium allowed it.

If we could get into the top 6 in consecutive seasons we'd probably average 40k if the stadium allowed it.

This is all however a long, long way away.

 

Yes I agree

 

I would like all effort and money put into getting us a team which can compete and stay in the PL before we think about extending the stadium.

 

It would be a disaster if we were building a bigger stadium and got relegated

[Wes Tender]

As I am officially no longer narrow minded, and I now truly believe that next season we will average 30,000 no problem at all. I have the imagination because I am no longer blinkered by the club's history of mediocrity which until now I foolishly interpreted as the cold hard facts of how many people are prepared to pay money to watch Southampton Football Club, including our waiting list of absolute zero for season tickets at any point in our history, ever.

 

I have seen the light.

 

30,000 average next season, easy. Are you with me?

 

No, I'm not. And there is no basis particularly for your assertion that just because some other clubs had that sort of attendance in the second division, we must achieve it also in order to be able to make 40,000 in the Premiership. The reasons are quite simple really. We have only just been promoted and undoubtedly our attendances will begin to rise over last season. But in my opinion, the numbers will only rise substantially on results, from success on the pitch. Yes, there will be higher attendances from certain matches this coming season, a sell-out against the Skates, of course for one and if we are doing well and look as if promotion is a reality a la Norwich, then towards the end of the season, numbers will increase dramatically. Therefore, plainly an average of 30000 is improbable because lower attendances early on will distort the average attendance downwards. The same scenario would apply to the Premiership, where we would sell out several games but not necessarily all of them, unless we were winning more than we were losing. Some games against the glory teams, we could probably sell 40000 tickets for. But other matches against lesser teams, I had suggested lower ticket prices for, much as we had done before with the gold, silver and bronze system.

 

I take much the same view as Tamesaint, which seems eminently sensible to me and perhaps you might care to pick holes in his stance, if you can.

 

And typically, when the argument put forward that we are on a par with teams like Bolton, Fulham and Stoke is shot down, then those who put forward those arguments sneer at the response as if geographical location, number of rival clubs in the area and population have nothing to do with anything. Obviously they are significant factors and I don't see any intelligent debate disproving them.

[Tamesaint]

Amen to this.

 

I think the only thing I would add is this:

 

Some clubs in the Prem currently on 40,000 plus average attendances that have recently been in the championship:

 

Sunderland averaged betwwen 27 - 31k in their 3 recent seasons.

Newcastle managed 43k in the CCC

Manchester City 33k.

 

Our best performance in the second tier is 23k with an average 17.8k in the dim and distant past of two seasons ago.

 

 

So, let's stop starting our hypothesis from "when we are an established top 6 prem club".

Let's start today. In the real world.

 

No club in the modern Prem club has ever added 20,000 regular fans following promotion.

 

If you think we can average 40,000 in the Premier League then we must average 30,000 fans in the Championship.

 

After all, we have the population and the passion and the catchment area and all the rest of the ******** spouted out on this thread for the last couple of days.

 

It's filling the ground for the crap games the proves we need more seats.

 

So Wes Tender and Mathew Le God and the rest of the airheads, see you next season.

30,000 week in, week out in the second tier.

 

Just like Newcastle. And Sunderland. And Man City.

 

30,000 week in week out.

 

Easy. Why?

 

Our population is bigger. Cortese is investing. We're on the up. Chelsea didn't sell many seats in 1983. Spurs want a new ground. Bolton have lots of clubs nearby. Oh, and Fulham have lots of clubs nearby. Something about our catchment area. We sold 30,000 against Southend once. They said people couldn't climb Everest.

 

All these reasons mean we can easily sell 30,000 week in, week out in the Championship.

 

30,000 week in, week out next season. Just like Sunderland and Man City.

 

And don't try and make excuses as to why we can't hit 30,000 next season because, after all, some people said they couldn't climb Everest.

 

Start counting those ticket stubs chaps. Bring it on.

 

What an idiotic reply.We will not average 30k attendances next season. No way. But that is no reason why we should not plan for expansion in the future.

 

You and Turkish have a strange way of arguing. Anybody who disagrees with you is an airhead or a clown. You then state a strange proposition (we must have 30k fans this season // we need to sell out against Torquay iin the League Cup to demonstrate we have 45k fans) and if your ridiculous proposition is not proven , you hurl abuse at the poeople who disagree with you. My son used to argue like that when he was 6 years old but he soon grew out of it.

 

My view, for what it is worth, is that expansion will happen on a gradual basis. When our current capacity is not enough, one stand will be expanded. Another stand will be expanded when we need more space. Expansion will happen - it is just strange that some Saints fans are so vehmently against it.

[Thedelldays]

IN MY OPINION..

 

IF and a big IF..w ever get back to the prem and suruvive 2 season and sit nicely like say, stoke are..then a 36-38k stadium would be no more than what we need...looking at our history, pecking order, who we are etc..

this talk of 10,000 (minimum) saints fans turning up is silly....but say a 38k stadium (if we ever get established again in the prem) would be great... it would allow our average attendance to go up a few thousand and allow for say halfthe home games and the odd cup game to have a big sell out....but any more would be a waste

 

one thing though, how do you all expect the club to pay for such lavish and probably un-needed expansion..?

raise ST prices...cant see that being popular, raise concession age to 70..? again, that would be a cracker..?

how would this be paid for...as dont know about you...upon being in the prem it will cost a kings ransom just for the playing staff etc...

 

also, people are assuming we will get back there any time soon...so much I have noticed is refered to this 5 year plan....how many new owners come in and make such claims/plans..?

personally, I dont care too much, just happy to see saints on the up and competing again...but I feel many are assuming/expecting saints to be mid table in the prem (at least) in 3 years time...that is a MASSIVE ask for any club down here...look at west ham, clearly assembling the best sqaud, have a very good manager and many are writing off their chances of promotion.......then to suggest saints, who have just come 2nd in division 3 will be mid table prem in 3 years is a tad arrogant, silly, daft etc etc IN MY OPINION

I fear that would we not be in stokes position by 2014 then many will cast NC into the FAILURE bin...when that would be silly looking from here.

 

just my opinion though

[The Fat Controller]

To be honest i think we would find it cheaper and easier tn relocate to get bigger capacity.

The transport infrastructure currently struggles to cope with 24-26k crowds

Somewhere near the airport parkway would be better

[Turkish]

What an idiotic reply.We will not average 30k attendances next season. No way. But that is no reason why we should not plan for expansion in the future.

 

You and Turkish have a strange way of arguing. Anybody who disagrees with you is an airhead or a clown. You then state a strange proposition (we must have 30k fans this season // we need to sell out against Torquay iin the League Cup to demonstrate we have 45k fans) and if your ridiculous proposition is not proven , you hurl abuse at the poeople who disagree with you. My son used to argue like that when he was 6 years old but he soon grew out of it.

 

My view, for what it is worth, is that expansion will happen on a gradual basis. When our current capacity is not enough, one stand will be expanded. Another stand will be expanded when we need more space. Expansion will happen - it is just strange that some Saints fans are so vehmently against it.

 

Is it as idiotic as the replies that Saints can get 50k and regular 45k crowds because they said it was impossible to put a man on the moon? Because Chelsea had crap crowds in the 80's and because Tottenham sell out every week?

[Saint Fan CaM]

Can't believe the narrow-mindedness of some on here. The way I see it is that no-one is suggesting 30k+ average crowds next season or indeed for some time.

 

The simple position is this - Cortese wants to take this club to a place it has NEVER experienced before in terms of success (i.e. top of Prem/CL etc), so comparing what we have achieved in the past with what we potential CAN achieve is nuts.

 

We know for certain that when clubs do well their attendances go up - that's natural - but we cannot tell accurately how much. We can only estimate and one way might be to look at the number of tickets that were readily sold for the JPT final - a 50k sell-out and more could have been sold. That might indicate that the audience is there - Cortese just has to find a way to capture their imagination to come to SMS regularly. Success in the form of winning more games than losing, press coverage, TV exposure, big player names, competing with top class opponents, Saints players making it into the England squad etc. etc. will do that.

 

Nothing is certain in this world, however all the signs from the past since Cortese has been in the building indicate that the future looks very rosy indeed. It's going to take at least another 10 years before we see Saints perform consistently at the top of the Prem and so any thoughts of ground expansion should be aligned with that timescale at least I would suggest. We don't know for sure - but why not contemplate on what might be?

[John B]

Can't believe the narrow-mindedness of some on here. The way I see it is that no-one is suggesting 30k+ average crowds next season or indeed for some time.

 

The simple position is this - Cortese wants to take this club to a place it has NEVER experienced before in terms of success (i.e. top of Prem/CL etc), so comparing what we have achieved in the past with what we potential CAN achieve is nuts.

 

We know for certain that when clubs do well their attendances go up - that's natural - but we cannot tell accurately how much. We can only estimate and one way might be to look at the number of tickets that were readily sold for the JPT final - a 50k sell-out and more could have been sold. That might indicate that the audience is there - Cortese just has to find a way to capture their imagination to come to SMS regularly. Success in the form of winning more games than losing, press coverage, TV exposure, big player names, competing with top class opponents, Saints players making it into the England squad etc. etc. will do that.

 

Nothing is certain in this world, however all the signs from the past since Cortese has been in the building indicate that the future looks very rosy indeed. It's going to take at least another 10 years before we see Saints perform consistently at the top of the Prem and so any thoughts of ground expansion should be aligned with that timescale at least I would suggest. We don't know for sure - but why not contemplate on what might be?

 

I would not be surprised if most football fans in this country thought it was nuts that SFC would replace one of say Man U Liverpool Chelsea Arsenal Man City in the Champions League based on the whim of an Italian Banker with little knowledge of English football.

 

However I dont think they would think it nuts if we played in the PL sometime in the not so distant future

[The Kraken]

IN MY OPINION..

 

IF and a big IF..w ever get back to the prem and suruvive 2 season and sit nicely like say, stoke are..then a 36-38k stadium would be no more than what we need

 

The way I understand stadium expansion at St. Mary's is this; the Itchen stand cannot be redeveloped. The Northam and Chapel stands can have 4,000 extra seats added to them. the Kingsland can have 8,000 seats added. So the choices would be either add 4K behind one of the goals to go to 36K or add 8K on the side and go to 40K.

 

I think this thread is rumbling on and perhaps some are missing each other's view point. I don't think anyone is predicting that we will never, ever need to consider a stadium capacity increase. 10, 20 years is a long time in football; we've all seen how our fortunes have dramatically changed in the past 8 years since we were flying high and at an FA Cup final. However, I think (or certainly what I was trying to convey) we and the owners will want to see a few years of sustained sell-outs in the Premier League before considering a stadium increase. Cortese is a businessman and won't be looking to increase the stadium just on a vanity exercise or **** measuring competition.

 

So I think, for now, talk of a capacity increase at St Marys is fanatastically premature. First we have to get to the Premier League. Then we would have to show at least 4 or 5 years of sustained capacity crowds, with a high level of season ticket sales.If/when we do get back to the Premier League I imagine Cortese will be looking very carefully at a number of factors, including:

 

What is our average home attendance; are we consistently selling out of home tickets pretty much every single week (even against the lower ranked teams)?

If we are selling out, how many enquiries for tickets are we receiving after the sold out date?

What is the level of season tickets sold?

 

Persoanlly, I think we'll only ever increase the capacity if a number of factors are met:

If we sell out the home allocation every single week (not 3/4 of the time, every single week for 2 or 3 seasons running).

If we seem to be receiving hundreds, thousands of ticket enquiries after tickets have sold out.

If our level of season tickets sold reaches 25K or 26K.

 

From past history we clearly haven't ever reached those levels, which is why it is extremely premature to contemplate an expansion right now. 5 or 10 years time, who knows? But until we hit those years of sustained evidence for a need for a bigger ground, we have one perfectly suited to our needs right now.

[egg]

I said that I would stay out of this but saintfancam makes a point which can't be ignored.

 

Commenting on something from an objective and commercial perspective does not make the commentor narrow minded or negative.

 

Myself, and the others who think that this discussion is premature, have consistently said the same thing. I would love to see us playing to 40k crowds. However, for now and the forseable future there appears no realistic prospect of achieving those crowds consistently. In view of that to expand the ground makes no commercial sense.

 

If we get back in the prem, look like staying there, and have a demand for 40k fans then expansion makes sense. Until then it doesn't.

 

Someone mentioned that wolves are expanding this summer so perhaps we should follow suit. They have consolidated their position in the prem so, subject to demand for tickets, it makes sense that they do that.

 

People also have short memories. Lowe built us a stadium. We then had little money for investment in players, and then nearly went bust. Cortese, like lowe, comes from a business background. Unlike lowe I think he is a decent businessman. No businessman with a brain would prejudice their business by building a stadium that isn't needed.

 

People, please take off the blinkers and be a bit more sensible.

 

That really is my last word on the matter.

[St_Tel49]

YOu are confusing negativity with realism. Can we get more than 32k provided we invest heavily to make us a top half side, expand the stadium etc? Probably. Are we one of the best supported clubs in England, which some claim we are judging by their claims we could get 50k on some occasions? Absolutely not.

 

I would love us to play in front of 50k a week at a sold out SMS but there is not one single piece of evidence that suggests we will. In one of our best ever seasons in 2003 generally if you wanted a ticket you got one. There was no waiting list for season tickets, no same day sell outs for big games etc etc. I know some of you seem to think that we are the new Barcelona and can become a champions league club with ease but do you really think there are another 20-30,000 Saints fans who would go regularly spending saturdays going for walks in th new forest at the moment as they are waiting for us to expand the stadium, sign world class players etc etc???

 

That is the absolute classic response but no-one has ever explained to me why the pessimistic view is always the realistic view. I guess if Hillary was a "realist" he would never have climbed Everest because all the statistics from previous attempts was that they failed. I am not arguing about whether we should extend the ground or not - NC will be well aware of the commercials of doing that - it is more the "Oh No that can never be..." reaction that even considering possibility got. No-one ever made progress by being "realistic", they simply paddle their own sweet way to nonentity.

[Thedelldays]

That is the absolute classic response but no-one has ever explained to me why the pessimistic view is always the realistic view. I guess if Hillary was a "realist" he would never have climbed Everest because all the statistics from previous attempts was that they failed. I am not arguing about whether we should extend the ground or not - NC will be well aware of the commercials of doing that - it is more the "Oh No that can never be..." reaction that even considering possibility got. No-one ever made progress by being "realistic", they simply paddle their own sweet way to nonentity.

 

saying we would fill a 45k stadium every week is like saying we will sign michael owen this summer..

 

we could, but we wont

[Turkish]

This thread has got boring now. The delusion of some of our fans despite all the evidence otherwise never ceases to amaze me. Throw a bit of reality in and you're shouted down for being negative.

 

You lot carry on dreaming on SFC being the new Barcelona, 50k fans all paying a tenner each in a packed St Marys stadium watching world class players playing football for the love of the club, earning 20k a week and staying here because they love SFC so much despite being able to earn £200k elsewhere, all of them developed through the academy and playing champions league football every season. You carry on doing this. I'll be more realistic and consider a midtable finish this season a result and if we ever in the future become anymore than a midtale PL side it consider it a fantastic achievement.

[St_Tel49]

saying we would fill a 45k stadium every week is like saying we will sign michael owen this summer..

 

we could, but we wont

 

And the likelihood or otherwise of that is all part of the commercials that NC has to take into account. That does not mean that he shouldn't think about it.

[The Kraken]

That is the absolute classic response but no-one has ever explained to me why the pessimistic view is always the realistic view. I guess if Hillary was a "realist" he would never have climbed Everest because all the statistics from previous attempts was that they failed. I am not arguing about whether we should extend the ground or not - NC will be well aware of the commercials of doing that - it is more the "Oh No that can never be..." reaction that even considering possibility got. No-one ever made progress by being "realistic", they simply paddle their own sweet way to nonentity.

 

I'll have a go Tel, although I feel I'm going over old ground here.

 

Firstly, it's not a "pessimistic" view. I don't believe anyone is saying that we will never need to expand the ground. If people were indeed saying "we will never outgrow our current stadium", then that could probably be seen as pessismistic.

 

However, the reality of the situation is that there is currently no evidence to suggest that at any point in our history, our present, or our near future we will consistently need an expanded stadium. Some posters on here are pointing to statistics from 8 years ago and suggesting that they already demonstrate a need for a bigger stadium. The evidence that needs to be shown for a bigger stadium are:

 

A season-ticket level above 25K or 26K.

A sell-out of home tickets for every single game.

A large contingent of ticket applications after games have sold out.

 

There is simply no arguing the fact that we have never filled those criteria. Could we in the future? It's completely hypothetical, and I don't think that anyone denies that for the very big games we could probably see crowds of at least 35K, and perhaps even higher. How high the crowd could go is, as I say, completely hypothetical.

 

What isn't hypothetical is that, per the 3 main criteria I outlined above, se haven't yet come close to fulfilling them. Our season ticket sales peaked at (from memory) around 23K. We sold out the home allocation of a number of games, but there were also a considerable amount of games when we clearly didn't. And there is certainly no evidence to suggest that there were thousands of people who wanted to but couldn't get a ticket for the bigger games. In fact even people who live away/abroad have commented that they rarely failed to get a ticket for the bigger games, which perhaps suggests that our capacity may well just be about right.

 

So until we sell out the ground every game over a consistent period of 3, 4 maybe 5 years, raise our season ticket level and see many people locked out of games, talk of the need for a bigger stadium is completely premature. But again, historical evidence shows that if we cannot sell out a 32,000 seater stadium for a very significant amount of games the need for a bigger stadium just for a handful of "bigger" games is questionable, given the massive financial outlay it would require.

 

And I find the comparisons with climbing Everest completely bizarre.

[Wes Tender]

Is it as idiotic as the replies that Saints can get 50k and regular 45k crowds because they said it was impossible to put a man on the moon? Because Chelsea had crap crowds in the 80's and because Tottenham sell out every week?

 

What is idiotic are your thought processes, where you can somehow totally twist something said by an opponent to suit your own ends in an attempt to make yourself look clever by belittling your opponent in a debate. As your little illustration above concerns me amongst others, I'd better put it into the context it was presented in, so that posters can see the bizarre way that your mind works sometimes.

 

Originally Posted by Turkish:

THe "smart kids" whos smart justification for 50k crowds is because they think we can, depsite the fact that we never have.

 

Wes Tender: It was impossible to climb Everest until somebody did it. It was impossible to put a man on the moon until somebody did it. Just because we never have had crowds at that level does not mean that it will never happen. We have been limited in the past by all sorts of factors, like the capacity of the stadium. Matches have sold out when the capacity was 32000. How many more tickets could we have sold? Admit it; you don't know. When the sold out sign went up, people stopped buying.

 

Now, quite how anybody can make the mental leap to accuse me of saying that "Saints can get 50K and regular 45K crowds because they said it was impossible to put a man on the moon" is totally beyond me. I have never claimed that we should expect to achieve crowds of that nature; only accepted the possibility that it was not an impossibility under certain circumstances.

[Saint Fan CaM]

This thread has got boring now because I cannot substantiate what I am saying without calling someone a nasty name.

 

Fixed. (;

[Bearsy]

We'd probably have to win the Prem to fill a 45k stadium, and then win the Champions League to pay for it.

 

Sound like a plan!

[TopGun]

This thread brings back memories of that mad feller who was going to take Saints over, bring David Beckham in and increase the capacity to 55,000. What was his name again - the photocopier salesman?

[Big Bad Bob]

This thread brings back memories of that mad feller who was going to take Saints over, bring David Beckham in and increase the capacity to 55,000. What was his name again - the photocopier salesman?

 

Wasn't that Marc Jackson aka LifeLongSaint aka LifeLongCherrie aka LifeLongSkate aka LifeLongInsertNameOfFootballClubInTrouble!!

[Turkish]

Fixed. (;

 

Only divs change other peoples posts to try and be funny

[Trader]

Can't believe the narrow-mindedness of some on here. The way I see it is that no-one is suggesting 30k+ average crowds next season or indeed for some time.

 

The simple position is this - Cortese wants to take this club to a place it has NEVER experienced before in terms of success (i.e. top of Prem/CL etc), so comparing what we have achieved in the past with what we potential CAN achieve is nuts.

 

We know for certain that when clubs do well their attendances go up - that's natural - but we cannot tell accurately how much. We can only estimate and one way might be to look at the number of tickets that were readily sold for the JPT final - a 50k sell-out and more could have been sold. That might indicate that the audience is there - Cortese just has to find a way to capture their imagination to come to SMS regularly. Success in the form of winning more games than losing, press coverage, TV exposure, big player names, competing with top class opponents, Saints players making it into the England squad etc. etc. will do that.

 

Nothing is certain in this world, however all the signs from the past since Cortese has been in the building indicate that the future looks very rosy indeed. It's going to take at least another 10 years before we see Saints perform consistently at the top of the Prem and so any thoughts of ground expansion should be aligned with that timescale at least I would suggest. We don't know for sure - but why not contemplate on what might be?

 

A nice day out at a new Wembley is vastly different to attending a full season of matches at St. Marys.

 

I've also wondered exactly how many of those 50k actually live in the Southampton area - you only have to look at the posters on this board to realise we have fans from all over who might make the effort for a one-off match at Wembley

[rooney]

I do not know why this keeps rearing its head quite regularly now. When Rupes was in charge, he said that he would need 25K Season Tickets sold over a 5 year period to justify a business case. This was one of the things he did get right. NC is a business man too, so he will probably take a similar view. We never had anywhere near that number of ST when we were in the Premiership, even when we were 5th at Christmas and got to the FA Cup Final. Let us close this thread now and get back to reality.

[Brussels Saint]

Can't be bothered to read through all this, but I suspect a sustainable achievable ambition for our club would be to regularly sell 36k (if in the Prem & Stadium could take it).

 

I base this on nothing more than good old fashioned gut feeling and common sense.

 

This would enable us to have good cup runs, safe mid/top end prem finishes and a European flirt every year. That would do me nicely until the day I die.

 

Talk of the CL is nuts unless genuinely the Liebherrs would finance it and a) I don't think they are that dumb and b) I would not want to do it that way (sustainable club being the golden aim)

 

Expanding St. Marys by 4k would be ridiculously expensive no doubt, but at least its achievable for a club our size. With fair play regulations being the order of the day in football at the moment, this is the way to invest.

[Tamesaint]

I do not know why this keeps rearing its head quite regularly now. When Rupes was in charge, he said that he would need 25K Season Tickets sold over a 5 year period to justify a business case. This was one of the things he did get right. NC is a business man too, so he will probably take a similar view. We never had anywhere near that number of ST when we were in the Premiership, even when we were 5th at Christmas and got to the FA Cup Final. Let us close this thread now and get back to reality.

 

I think a correction is needed here.

 

NC is a businessman. Rupert Lowe thought he was a businessman but was not really!!

[Turkish]

Can't be bothered to read through all this, but I suspect a sustainable achievable ambition for our club would be to regularly sell 36k (if in the Prem & Stadium could take it).

 

I base this on nothing more than good old fashioned gut feeling and common sense.

 

This would enable us to have good cup runs, safe mid/top end prem finishes and a European flirt every year. That would do me nicely until the day I die.

 

Talk of the CL is nuts unless genuinely the Liebherrs would finance it and a) I don't think they are that dumb and b) I would not want to do it that way (sustainable club being the golden aim)

 

Expanding St. Marys by 4k would be ridiculously expensive no doubt, but at least its achievable for a club our size. With fair play regulations being the order of the day in football at the moment, this is the way to invest.

 

No, no, you're wrong. We are going to get crowds of 50k every week, because we can. There is no evidence to suggest we can, i just think we can because Chelsea only used to get 10,000 in 1984.

[Wes Tender]

No, no, you're wrong. We are going to get crowds of 50k every week, because we can. There is no evidence to suggest we can, i just think we can because Chelsea only used to get 10,000 in 1984.

 

That's right, throw in a bit of sarcasm to keep the tread going. It doesn't add anything constructive or intelligent, but when you said a few hours ago that you were getting bored with the thread, we didn't realise that you were going to add to the boredom factor yourself.