Stadium Developments

[Matthew Le God]

Can you really imagine Cortese approaching the Liebherr money men and asking for 50mil to expand the stadium on the basis that there's no evidence that we won't fill an expanded stadium?

 

What evidence do you think would suffice...?

 

- 30k+ averages for four consecutive seasons

- Many games selling out long in advance of the game

- Huge numbers of unique customers on the ticketing database

 

Oh, wait a minute, we have that evidence.

 

Impossible to have evidence of 40k crowds in a 32k seater stadium, so the above is as close as you are going to get.

[Avenue Saint]

What evidence do you think would suffice...?

 

- 30k+ averages for four consecutive seasons

- Many games selling out long in advance of the game

 

Oh, wait a minute, we have that evidence.

 

Mathew, i read your posts with some interest as i always find you have substance to the points you make. Im completely on the same page as you as am sure a lot of others on here are but my friend, you aren't going to get joy out of the likes of egg or others on here. When looking at it objectively it seems almost like they are on a relentless crusade to wrench out even the slightest bit of negativity out of any situation possible...

 

let them be and let the majority of us saints fans continue to enjoy this current journey of success develop...

 

UP the Saints

[egg]

Mathew, i read your posts with some interest as i always find you have substance to the points you make. Im completely on the same page as you as am sure a lot of others on here are but my friend, you aren't going to get joy out of the likes of egg or others on here. When looking at it objectively it seems almost like they are on a relentless crusade to wrench out even the slightest bit of negativity out of any situation possible...

 

let them be and let the majority of us saints fans continue to enjoy this current journey of success develop...

 

UP the Saints

 

 

 

I'm not at all negative. I'm realistic.

 

I've said that if and when we go up and its clear that we need a bigger stadium that the issue then warrants discussion.

 

What's negative about that.

[Matthew Le God]

I'm not at all negative. I'm realistic.

 

I've said that if and when we go up and its clear that we need a bigger stadium that the issue then warrants discussion.

 

What's negative about that.

 

Why wait until you go up until you start thinking about it? Within the last decade the club has had four consecutive seasons of 30k+ crowds and sold out many games long in advance. You don't need to wait another four years after promotion to see if it will happen again, the demand will still be there. It could potentially be a long process (planning and construction), so if the club really does have ambitions (and the resources required) to see it towards the upper reaches of the top flight, it would be worth planning for infrastructure improvements earlier rather than later. As they have already done with the training ground and academy.

[Turkish]

good post. dont worry too much about it, you cant talk people to sense..

 

Turkish is just an argumentative ****. just check how many posts he ends with "ffs" lmao!!

 

LMFAO!!! Where are these 25,000 extra fans now my friend? Where have they been in the whole history of SFC and what makes you think they will be there in the future, other than the, we can fill a 45k stadium every week because i say so, argument.

[Matthew Le God]

LMFAO!!! Where are these 25,000 extra fans now my friend? Where have they been in the whole history of SFC and what makes you think they will be there in the future, other than the, we can fill a 45k stadium every week because i say so, argument.

 

Where were they for Chelsea between 1992 (when the Premier League started) and 1995 (money starting going into them) when they averaged in the Premier League similar to what Saints averaged in League One last season? Attendances fluctuate dependant on many factors, the most important being success on the pitch (often driven by money invested into the club). Success brings in the casual glory hunting fan, potentially in huge numbers.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Turkish]

Where were they for Chelsea in 1995 when they averaged in the Premier League similar to what Saints averaged in League One last season? Attendances fluctuate dependant on many factors, the most important being success on the pitch (often driven by money invested into the club). Success brings in the casual glory hunting fan, potentially in huge numbers.

 

As per my previous post, Chelsea have always been a huge club, Stamford Bridges record attendance is 82k, yes they stayed away in the 80's and 90's probably due to Chelsea reputation off the pitch, electric fences and Ken Bates but the support has always been there. Stop going on about other clubs and tell me one season in our history when Saints have ever had a regular demand for more than 32k fans.

[Matthew Le God]

Stop going on about other clubs and tell me one season in our history when Saints have ever had a regular demand for more than 32k fans.

 

2001/02

2002/03

2003/04

2004/05

 

Many games in those seasons sold out long in advance of the matchday. Also had The Dell been bigger in the late 1990's the club would also have sold more than 32k for a number of games.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Turkish]

That is nonsense, many games sold out long in advance of the day of the match. That season the club averaged 31,699 in a 32,689 seater stadium, when you take into account segregation that shows supply was struggling to cope with demand, for what was essentially a mid table campaign for a club that wasn't spending money on the team.

 

If you wanted a ticket you got one. THis is undeniable. You might havr had to get one a bit earlier but SFC were not turning away thousands of fans every week.

[Turkish]

2001/02

2002/03

2003/04

2004/05

 

For a start.

 

Please can you tell me what the waiting list for season tickets was during this period.

[Scummer]

I could perhaps see that, if we were doing well in the premier league, we might require a ground holding around 40k. However it would cost a huge amount to add those extra 8k seats, it makes no sense financially at all.

[Matthew Le God]

Please can you tell me what the waiting list for season tickets was during this period.

 

Please can you tell me why you keep ignoring that large numbers of games in that four year period sold out long in advance of the matchday? Leaving many unable to go, even though they wanted to.

 

The club was even able to sell circa 30k for matches as a League One side in the last two years vs Leeds, vs Exeter, vs Walsall, and vs MK Dons. That is for games with League One players on show and not internationals.

 

Also it may have been the last game of the season, but the Walsall League One game sold out and many were left unable to get a ticket.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Stop going on about other clubs and tell me one season in our history when Saints have ever had a regular demand for more than 32k fans.

 

So because of that we stand still?

 

In 1988 Man Utd averaged 36.474, which was down 8% from the previous season.Who would have thought they could get 70,000+ 20 years later. Nobody is suggesting anything like that size, but 40,000-45,000 is realistic in our growing catchment area.

[Joensuu]

Mathew, i read your posts with some interest as i always find you have substance to the points you make. Im completely on the same page as you as am sure a lot of others on here are but my friend, you aren't going to get joy out of the likes of egg or others on here. When looking at it objectively it seems almost like they are on a relentless crusade to wrench out even the slightest bit of negativity out of any situation possible...

 

let them be and let the majority of us saints fans continue to enjoy this current journey of success develop...

 

UP the Saints

 

+1 . It's like watching a classroom, with the smart kid being bullied by the 'lads' at the back of the class.

[Turkish]

+1 . It's like watching a classroom, with the smart kid being bullied by the 'lads' at the back of the class.

 

THe "smart kids" whos smart justification for 50k crowds is because they think we can, depsite the fact that we never have.

[Matthew Le God]

THe "smart kids" whos smart justification for 50k crowds is because they think we can, depsite the fact that we never have.

 

Who has said 50k crowds?

 

You have yet to comment on four consecutive seasons of 30k+ crowds, with many selling out long before matchday. You can't get 40k or 50k crowds in a 32k stadium, so what evidence do you want? So what is your justification for thinking Saints can't? Yet again, more flawed logic.

[Turkish]

Please can you tell me why you keep ignoring that large numbers of games in that four year period sold out long in advance of the matchday? Leaving many unable to go, even though they wanted to.

 

The club was even able to sell circa 30k for matches as a League One side in the last two years vs Leeds, vs Exeter, vs Walsall, and vs MK Dons. That is for games with League One players on show and not internationals.

 

Also it may have been the last game of the season, but the Walsall League One game sold out and many were left unable to get a ticket.

 

And the Wallsall game was the match that we secured our first promotion in many fans lives, there would be something seriously wrong if we didn't sell out.

 

If you want to believe there are 30,000 Saints fans who will go regularly once we are in the in the premier league then that's up to you. However, like many believe that we are the new Barcelona, are going to make the champions league regularly by simply having a decent academy and play in front of a packed 50k capacity SMS every week then much like those that think Scott Parker and Shay Given are desperate to sign for us, you are going to be in for a disapointment.

[Joensuu]

THe "smart kids" whos smart justification for 50k crowds is because they think we can, depsite the fact that we never have.

 

Turkish. Back in 2003 (or so) Deloitte conducted a survey of football team fan bases. Saints were ranked at 16th in the UK, (14th if you remove Celtic and Rangers). I can't remember the estimated fan base, but it was c. 300k or so (worldwide). Hampshire has a population of 1.7m or so, with only the blue few to compete with (and I guess Reading and the plastic fans). Quite simply, Saints have a large fanbase, and a larger potential fanbase.

 

So the problem isn't the potential, nor the existing fanbase, but whether or not we can price the games competitively enough to attract large numbers to turn up.

 

IMO, were we to be mid-table Premiership we would easily average c.36k +; if we fulfil the Liebherr dream of getting into the top 6, IMO we would fill a 45k stadium every game (even vs Wigan etc). Based entirely upon our previous Premier attendences - we will continue to sell 32k tickets almost every game (variations would be more to do with away attendance than home attendance). 32k is sufficient, but IMO, not really enough.

[Matthew Le God]

And the Wallsall game was the match that we secured our first promotion in many fans lives, there would be something seriously wrong if we didn't sell out.

 

Which English clubs do you think could do the same? Which English clubs would average 22k in the 3rd tier? Not many is the answer.

 

If you want to believe there are 30,000 Saints fans who will go regularly once we are in the in the premier league then that's up to you.

 

Again... four consecutive seasons of 30k+ averages suggests that it would be achievable. Yes, 2-3,000 were away fans. But you can only ever get 32k in a 32k stadium at max. So why do you think it is so far fetched to get 30k Saints fans regularly to St Marys?

[Turkish]

Who has said 50k crowds?

 

You have yet to comment on four consecutive seasons of 30k+ crowds, with many selling out long before matchday. You can't get 40k or 50k crowds in a 32k stadium, so what evidence do you want? So what is your justification for thinking Saints can't? Yet again, more flawed logic.

 

Further up this thread crowds of 45k average and 50k for big games were mentioned.

 

I'd like to see evidence of waiting lists for season tickets during our golden period of early 00's. Personally i can never remember anyone i know missing a game during this period because they couldn't get one. If tyou wanted a ticket you got one. Prehaps a couple of the missing 30,000 fans post on here and can confirm that they will be straight back through the turnstiles once we are back in the PL or how about the thousands that were locked out every week can share their disapointment with us. Is there anyone out there???

[hypochondriac]

Which English clubs do you think could do the same? Which English clubs would average 22k in the 3rd tier? Not many is the answer.

 

 

 

Again... four consecutive seasons of 30k+ averages suggests that it would be achievable. Yes, 2-3,000 were away fans. But you can only ever get 32k in a 32k stadium at max. So why do you think it is so far fetched to get 30k Saints fans regularly to St Marys?

 

Averaging 22,000 does not mean selling out every week in the premiership. We don't need a bigger stadium. You are f*cking dull.

[Turkish]

Turkish. Back in 2003 (or so) Deloitte conducted a survey of football team fan bases. Saints were ranked at 16th in the UK, (14th if you remove Celtic and Rangers). I can't remember the estimated fan base, but it was c. 300k or so (worldwide). Hampshire has a population of 1.7m or so, with only the blue few to compete with (and I guess Reading and the plastic fans). Quite simply, Saints have a large fanbase, and a larger potential fanbase.

 

So the problem isn't the potential, nor the existing fanbase, but whether or not we can price the games competitively enough to attract large numbers to turn up.

 

IMO, were we to be mid-table Premiership we would easily average c.36k +; if we fulfil the Liebherr dream of getting into the top 6, IMO we would fill a 45k stadium every game (even vs Wigan etc). Based entirely upon our previous Premier attendences - we will continue to sell 32k tickets almost every game (variations would be more to do with away attendance than home attendance). 32k is sufficient, but IMO, not really enough.

 

Thats brilliant, however only 5 club in England average over 40k. So 10 with bigger fan bases than Saints dont. Why should we suddenly over take them?

[Matthew Le God]

Personally i can never remember anyone i know missing a game during this period because they couldn't get one. If tyou wanted a ticket you got one.

 

This is nonsense. In those four seasons Saints had in the Premier League at St Mary's a large number of the games sold out, many of them sold out a week or two weeks before the matchday. Many people were unable to goto the games. You have very much twisted history here.

[The Kraken]

Who has said 50k crowds?

 

You have yet to comment on four consecutive seasons of 30k+ crowds, with many selling out long before matchday. You can't get 40k or 50k crowds in a 32k stadium, so what evidence do you want? So what is your justification for thinking Saints can't? Yet again, more flawed logic.

 

Rupert Lowe was obviously in charge during the 4 years you keep referring to; he maintained that there was no point in considering an increase in capacity until we regularly achieved more than 25K season ticket holders. Not once did we achieve that.

 

Despite our average being around 31.5K, we also used to get gates of 30K - 31K on quite a regualr basis (against the lower ranked teams). If we had sold out the ground week in, week out, year in, year out then that would be evidence we need a bigger ground. We had one year when attendances were close to capacity, the other years proved that our ground was the perfect size for us.

 

If we get back to the Premier League, and if we're selling out week in week out, then that will be evidence for an increase in capacity. Until then, I think we've got bigger fish to fry trying to sell out our current stadium; with the price hikes we've seen this year I think subsequent hikes in the Prem to around £35 - £40 a ticket could well have a detrimental effect of higher numbers.

[hypochondriac]

This is nonsense. In those four seasons Saints had in the Premier League at St Mary's a large number of the games sold out, many of them sold out a week or two weeks before the matchday. Many people were unable to goto the games. You have very much twisted history here.

 

How is sharing his personal experiences with saints twisting history?

[Matthew Le God]

Averaging 22,000 does not mean selling out every week in the premiership. We don't need a bigger stadium. You are f*cking dull.

 

It is an indication of fanbase size, i.e. if you can sustain 22k averages in the 3rd tier you have a very large fanbase. Many over clubs haven't in recent years or couldn't. A number of current Premier League teams struggle to get much more than a 22k average. If they were in the 3rd tier it would drop dramatically below 22k.

 

Averaging 30k+ for four consecutive years with many games selling out long in advance shows that the stadium is too small. If the stadium was bigger these sell out would have had larger crowds than the 31k or 32k they had. Remember segregation fluctuates from game to game but they are still sell outs.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Matthew Le God]

How is sharing his personal experiences with saints twisting history?

 

Because I doubt his recollection is correct. If you weren't a season ticket holder or a member you wouldn't have been able to get a ticket for a Saints vs Man Utd, Saints vs Arsenal, Saints vs Liverpool etc game on the day because it would have sold out a week or two weeks beforehand. Many people that wanted to go, couldn't.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Joensuu]

Further up this thread crowds of 45k average and 50k for big games were mentioned.

 

I'd like to see evidence of waiting lists for season tickets during our golden period of early 00's. Personally i can never remember anyone i know missing a game during this period because they couldn't get one. If tyou wanted a ticket you got one. Prehaps a couple of the missing 30,000 fans post on here and can confirm that they will be straight back through the turnstiles once we are back in the PL or how about the thousands that were locked out every week can share their disapointment with us. Is there anyone out there???

 

My folks had 3 season tickets in the Prem. Average about 10 games a season between them now... think that's three for your list

[Joensuu]

Thats brilliant, however only 5 club in England average over 40k. So 10 with bigger fan bases than Saints dont. Why should we suddenly over take them?

 

Note in my post I suggested 45k if we were top 6. Think that answers your question. We'd overtake them, if we were out performing them on the pitch (c.f. Chelsea).

[hypochondriac]

It is an indication of fanbase size, i.e. if you can sustain 22k averages in the 3rd tier you have a very large fanbase. Many over clubs haven't in recent years or couldn't. A number of current Premier League teams struggle to get much more than a 22k average. If they were in the 3rd tier it would drop dramatically below 22k.

 

Averaging 30k+ for four consecutive years with many games selling out long in advance shows that the stadium is too small. If the stadium was bigger these sell out would have had larger crowds than the 31k or 32k they had. Remember segregation fluctuates from game to game but they are still sell outs.

 

It doesn't mean that at all. There are a host of factors which mean you get higher attendances in a lower division. We were no normal league one club, we had heavy backing for the first time in our history.

[egg]

Where do people think that the extra ten thousand or so fans will come from? There is not the expanding catchment area that people talk of.

 

Chelsea and man utd have been mentioned in this thread. London is a massive city and manchester has loads of towns and cities go greater manchester. There fanbase is almost limitless.

 

We have sea to the south of us, winchester to the north, pompey to the east and bournemouth to the west. In between we have a few small towns and a load of ponies.

[Joensuu]

Where do people think that the extra ten thousand or so fans will come from? There is not the expanding catchment area that people talk of.

 

Chelsea and man utd have been mentioned in this thread. London is a massive city and manchester has loads of towns and cities go greater manchester. There fanbase is almost limitless.

 

We have sea to the south of us, winchester to the north, pompey to the east and bournemouth to the west. In between we have a few small towns and a load of ponies.

 

... and 1.7 million people...

[The Kraken]

Because I doubt his recollection is correct. If you weren't a season ticket holder or a member you wouldn't have been able to get a ticket for a Saints vs Man Utd game on the day because it would have sold out a week or two weeks beforehand. Many people that wanted to go, couldn't.

 

For the bigger games; no doubt. But I think you're maybe losing track of how many games didn't sell out. If you take into account fluctuations with the away segregation, you can probably say that a crowd of 31K might be achieving home capacity (and that's being very generous).

 

In 2001/02 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

In 2002/03 we had 6 home league games with less than 31K (that's just about one third).

In 2003/04 we had 1 home league game with less than 31K.

In 2004/05 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

 

So really we have just one season where you could argue we hit capacity, and another 3 where our stadium was the right size for us.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by The Kraken

[Matthew Le God]

It doesn't mean that at all. There are a host of factors which mean you get higher attendances in a lower division. We were no normal league one club, we had heavy backing for the first time in our history.

 

Read the first paragraph in combination with the second paragraph (which you ignored).

[Joensuu]

For the bigger games; no doubt. But I think you're maybe losing track of how many games didn't sell out. If you take into account fluctuations with the away segregation, you can probably say that a crowd of 31K might be achieving home capacity (and that's being very generous).

 

In 2001/02 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

In 2002/03 we had 6 home league games with less than 31K (that's just about one third).

In 2003/04 we had 1 home league game with less than 31K.

In 2004/05 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

 

So really we have just one season where you could argue we hit capacity, and another 3 where our stadium was the right size for us.

 

For 2001/02 season we

 

And what were the away attendances for those games? You can't include those matches where we sold out the home end, but were let down by poor away support...

 

After that you have what, 2, perhaps 3 games a season on average left?

[Matthew Le God]

For the bigger games; no doubt. But I think you're maybe losing track of how many games didn't sell out. If you take into account fluctuations with the away segregation, you can probably say that a crowd of 31K might be achieving home capacity (and that's being very generous).

 

In 2001/02 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

In 2002/03 we had 6 home league games with less than 31K (that's just about one third).

In 2003/04 we had 1 home league game with less than 31K.

In 2004/05 we had 8 home league games with less than 31K (that's almost half).

 

So really we have just one season where you could argue we hit capacity, and another 3 where our stadium was the right size for us.

 

Nonsense again, many of the games sold out in the home end long in advance of the match. If the stadium was bigger those unable to get tickets due to it selling out would have attended.

 

Also you choose a figure of 31k, again this is strange because Saints had official sell outs of 30k in the 32k stadium, but the attendance was restricted due to segregation and/or the away fans not selling out.

 

For example the Saints vs Pompey game in 2004/05 had an attendance of 30,921 in a stadium with 1,700 empty seats. Yet it was officially a home end sell out long in advance of the day of the match.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[hypochondriac]

Read the first paragraph in combination with the second paragraph (which you ignored).

 

The Kraken has answered that well. Even if we sell out, there is not huge amount more to justify a large capacity increase.

[Matthew Le God]

The Kraken has answered that well. Even if we sell out, there is not huge amount more to justify a large capacity increase.

 

On what is that based? Saint have never had a stadium larger than 32k. You can't have more than 32k people in a 32k seater stadium.

 

They do however have access to a ticketing database and to build up a picture how many unique customers have been in the home ends at St Mary's and The Dell. They also have a four year period of 30k+ crowds and numerous home end sell outs long in advance of matchdays.

[The Kraken]

Nonsense again, many of the games sold out in the home end long in advance of the match. If the stadium was bigger those unable to get tickets due to it selling out would have attended.

 

Also you choose a figure of 31k, again this is strange because Saints had official sell outs of 30k in the 32k stadium, but the attendance was restricted due to segregation and/or the away fans not selling out.

 

For example the Saints vs Pompey game in 2004/05 had an attendance of 30,921. Yet it was officially a home end sell out long in advance of the day of the match.

 

Its not nonsense at all. I chose a figure of 31K because the away end had a maximum size of 3,200. We didn't always give that size allocation to every club, for some games extra home seats would go on sale and the home figure ate into that 3,200. I used to sit in the Northam and can remember quite a few games when the away fans were very close (large proportion of tickets) and equally many games when there was an entire block of Saints fans to the left that had eaten to an unwanted away allocation.

 

If you want another stat, 5 games in 2001/02 had less than 30K. 4 games in 02/03 had less than 30K. And 5 again in 04/05. You can't plame away attendance on those, we simply couldn't fill the ground.

[Matthew Le God]

Its not nonsense at all. I chose a figure of 31K because the away end had a maximum size of 3,200. We didn't always give that size allocation to every club, for some games extra home seats would go on sale.

 

It ignores my point that many games were home end sell outs long before matchday. Had the stadium been bigger more home tickets would have been sold.

 

If you want another stat, 5 games in 2001/02 had less than 30K. 4 games in 02/03 had less than 30K. And 5 again in 04/05. You can't plame away attendance on those, we simply couldn't fill the ground.

 

4 or 5 matches out of 19 League games is not a lot. You then have nearly 75% of Premier League home games against more attractive opposition that you might sell many more home tickets for and thus cancels out the 4 or 5 smaller games. You then also have home cup games and concerts with a larger capacity to increase revenues with.

 

Do you honestly believe Saints couldn't sell more than 29k home tickets for a Premier League match against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Tottenham or Liverpool?

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

Do you honestly believe Saints couldn't sell more than 29k home tickets for a Premier League match against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man CIty, Tottenham or Liverpool?

 

I've already answered this. Against the big sides there's no doubt we used to sell out. How many more tickets we could have sold is entirely hypothetical though.

 

And I would suggest that 4 or 5 games a season out of 19 that get nowhere near capacity (our lowest crowds of 26,794, 25,714 and 27,343 in 01/02, 02/03 and 04/05) is a very indicator to the fact that we're not hitting capacity "week in week out over 4 years" or however you put it. And in the fact that our home FA Cup ties were pitifully attended (even in cup final year we played at home 3 times and for two of those games against Spuds and Millwall we had crowds of 25, 589 and 23,809).

 

There's no doubt in my mind we could sell out 35K against the big sides consistently. Maybe even get towards 40K for 1 or 2 games. But against the lesser teams our level was consistently around the 30-31K mark, we just didn't have a complete sell out over any sort of extended time frame. Given the massive costs in taking our capacity up, I don't see a justification for it using past records.

[Wes Tender]

THe "smart kids" whos smart justification for 50k crowds is because they think we can, depsite the fact that we never have.

 

It was impossible to climb Everest until somebody did it. It was impossible to put a man on the moon until somebody did it. Just because we never have had crowds at that level does not mean that it will never happen. We have been limited in the past by all sorts of factors, like the capacity of the stadium. Matches have sold out when the capacity was 32000. How many more tickets could we have sold? Admit it; you don't know. When the sold out sign went up, people stopped buying.

[Matthew Le God]

I've already answered this. Against the big sides there's no doubt we used to sell out. How many more tickets we could have sold is entirely hypothetical though.

 

And I would suggest that 4 or 5 games a season out of 19 that get nowhere near capacity (our lowest crowds of 26,794, 25,714 and 27,343 in 01/02, 02/03 and 04/05) is a very indicator to the fact that we're not hitting capacity "week in week out over 4 years" or however you put it. And in the fact that our home FA Cup ties were pitifully attended (even in cup final year we played at home 3 times and for two of those games against Spuds and Millwall we had crowds of 25, 589 and 23,809).

 

There's no doubt in my mind we could sell out 35K against the big sides consistently. Maybe even get towards 40K for 1 or 2 games. But against the lesser teams our level was consistently around the 30-31K mark, we just didn't have a complete sell out over any sort of extended time frame. Given the massive costs in taking our capacity up, I don't see a justification for it using past records.

 

It was more than just the "big sides" that St Mary's sold out for in that period. It was also a period of three mid table seasons and one relegation campaign. Yet all averaged over 30k.

 

Cortese has bigger plans than Lowe ever did whilst he was in charge during that period, and importantly he has money match those ambitions. All clubs have a core fanbase, they make up most of the crowd when we play teams like Dagenham on a Tuesday night in League One. There are also large numbers of casual Saints fans that will turn up if things are looking good. A strong Premier League team with investment is a more attractive proposition for many than a "Rupert Lowe happy to be mid table side" *****il lack of investment led to relegation in 04/05). Many of those that did (and would int he future) get a season ticket for a Premier League campaign wouldn't attend many League One games.

[The Kraken]

It was more than just the "big sides" that St Mary's sold out for in that period. It was also a period of three mid table seasons and one relegation campaign. Yet all averaged over 30k.

 

Cortese has bigger plans than Lowe ever did whilst he was in charge during that period, and importantly he has money match those ambitions. All clubs have a core fanbase, they make up most of the crowd when we play teams like Dagenham on a Tuesday night in League One. There are also large numbers of casual Saints fans that will turn up if things are looking good. A strong Premier League team with investment is a more attractive proposition for many than a "Rupert Lowe happy to be mid table side" *****il lack of investment led to relegation in 04/05). Many of those that did (and would int he future) get a season ticket for a Premier League campaign wouldn't attend many League One games.

 

I'm going to end here, because all you're providing is speculation. Of course a successful side will attract more customers, that's common sense. However, Cortese is a businessman and will surely look at the fact that we didn't used to sell out week in week out, and only averaged between 30K and 31K whilst also ahving a considerable number of games in the league and cups that fell well short of that.

 

A capacity increase up to 40K would cost at least £25M. To justify that outlay, we would need to be sure of filling that every single week, which we clearly haven't been able to do even in the current size of stadium. And the possibility of having 4 or 5 games a season where we're more than 10K adrift of capacity is not a great incentive to such a huge outlay of cost.

 

I'd love to see us in a bigger stadium, and filling it every week, of course I would. I just think we're at least 5 or 6 years away from proving that there is a need for a stadium increase.

 

And with that I'm off.

[Wes Tender]

Originally Posted by Wes Tender:

where is your evidence that it would not be possible to fill a 40,000 seater stadium?

 

Egg:

Priceless!

 

Can you really imagine Cortese approaching the Liebherr money men and asking for 50mil to expand the stadium on the basis that there's no evidence that we won't fill an expanded stadium?

 

What's priceless is you making assumptions, just as Turkish and CB Fry have, that if the response to your questioning doesn't suit your own agenda, it must mean something else. I was asked to justify my position that under certain circumstances it might be feasible to fill a stadium increased in capacity to satisfy demand. When sneered at and asked for supporting evidence, it is surely permissable to counter by asking for evidence that it is not possible.

 

Of course Cortese would not go cap in hand to the Liebherrs asking for £50 million to extend the stadium capacity without evidence that we will expect to fill it for many of the matches. But then the suggestion that anybody on here thought that he might do was yours alone. On the other hand, if the evidence was strong, that with increasing success on the pitch and demand increased substantially, there is no reason at all why he should not put forward the plans to the Liebhers to spend money on improving the stadium, or indeed relocating.

 

A few narrow-minded individuals on here do not have the imagination to accept that such a thing is possible, possibly because they have become blinkered by the club's history of mediocrity.

[Paul Chuckle]

I used to like this forum until Matthew Le God turned up and ruined it

[egg]

Originally Posted by Wes Tender:

 

 

Egg:

 

What's priceless is you making assumptions, just as Turkish and CB Fry have, that if the response to your questioning doesn't suit your own agenda, it must mean something else. I was asked to justify my position that under certain circumstances it might be feasible to fill a stadium increased in capacity to satisfy demand. When sneered at and asked for supporting evidence, it is surely permissable to counter by asking for evidence that it is not possible.

 

Of course Cortese would not go cap in hand to the Liebherrs asking for £50 million to extend the stadium capacity without evidence that we will expect to fill it for many of the matches. But then the suggestion that anybody on here thought that he might do was yours alone. On the other hand, if the evidence was strong, that with increasing success on the pitch and demand increased substantially, there is no reason at all why he should not put forward the plans to the Liebhers to spend money on improving the stadium, or indeed relocating.

 

A few narrow-minded individuals on here do not have the imagination to accept that such a thing is possible, possibly because they have become blinkered by the club's history of mediocrity.

 

 

 

Just give it a rest please. Turkish and kraken have highlighted the facts. I can't be bothered to repeat them and/or rewrite them so they are easier to comprehend. I too am out of this pointless debate.

[Matthew Le God]

I used to like this forum until Matthew Le God turned up and ruined it

 

I've been here from the day this forum started. Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I "ruined it". A number of people have a similar viewpoint to me in this thread.

 

In any case, this is a public forum, the purpose of which is to debate Saints related topics. Most on both sides of the debate have done so relatively civilly, so what is the problem? If you don't like my posts you can block me.

[Turkish]

It was impossible to climb Everest until somebody did it. It was impossible to put a man on the moon until somebody did it. Just because we never have had crowds at that level does not mean that it will never happen. We have been limited in the past by all sorts of factors, like the capacity of the stadium. Matches have sold out when the capacity was 32000. How many more tickets could we have sold? Admit it; you don't know. When the sold out sign went up, people stopped buying.

 

Only you could come up with such utterly ridiulous comparions. Please can one of the thousands that was turned away between 01-05 come on here and give us their story, there must be loads of them on here that missed out on tickets.

[hypochondriac]

I've been here from the day this forum started. Just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I "ruined it". A number of people have a similar viewpoint to me in this thread.

 

In any case, this is a public forum, the purpose of which is to debate Saints related topics. Most on both sides of the debate have done so relatively civilly, so what is the problem? If you don't like my posts you can block me.

 

But none express their view in such a tiresome and pedantic fashion.