Stadium Developments

[Lord Duckhunter]

Sunderland have had 4 very average seasons in the top flight, in all 4 they have averaged over 40,000.

 

Sunderland has a population of approx 177,739 compared to Southamptons approx 236,700

 

Like Southampton, Sunderland have not won a major trophy for decades.

 

Why do people believe it's not possible for us to fill a 45,000 stadium, and average 40,000 in the top flight?

[suewhistle]

Well on that basis why not go the whole hog and expand up to 100k? We'd fill it, according to your logic all it needs is flexible ticketing prices, bit of investment, good academy etc.

 

Give us a break Turkish: that's a straw man argument. Nobody is saying we're going to get 45k every week, but people are saying that we have potential for bigger gates. As pointed out we doubled on moving to SMS and it was often a scrabble for tickets which I avoided by having a season ticket. Getting them for friends was a real pain. Our 30k+ against Southend was the sort of crowd that Villa and Spurs wouldn't get, although I admit they had a better choice of games to go to. But to repeat a point, with the professionalism and backing we now have and a bit of success there's no doubt 32k would be too small. What the actual alternative might be is another matter.

[suewhistle]

Let's not build a bigger ground when we finally have a chance of filling this one. I hate empty seats.

 

You all seem to be forgetting that once we're in the Premier League half of us will no longer be able to afford to attend games anyway.

 

Not if prices are reasonable for the run of the mill games, which a larger stadium would not only permit but encourage..

[Turkish]

Give us a break Turkish: that's a straw man argument. Nobody is saying we're going to get 45k every week, but people are saying that we have potential for bigger gates. As pointed out we doubled on moving to SMS and it was often a scrabble for tickets which I avoided by having a season ticket. Getting them for friends was a real pain. Our 30k+ against Southend was the sort of crowd that Villa and Spurs wouldn't get, although I admit they had a better choice of games to go to. But to repeat a point, with the professionalism and backing we now have and a bit of success there's no doubt 32k would be too small. What the actual alternative might be is another matter.

 

No Suzy, read above, i dont doubt we would get more than 32k at times in the PL, but some people ARE saying we would get 45k on average and 50k for big games. This would make us the 4th best supported club in England and not only that some people think that despite paying 100's of millions to become a top half of the table side and extend SMS to over 50k it's going to become cheaper to watch Saints.

 

[Turkish]

Not if prices are reasonable for the run of the mill games, which a larger stadium would not only permit but encourage..

 

LOL. £100 million + to expand SMS and buy players to to get us to a top half premier league club and prices are going to come down!!! Mental.

[CB Fry]

Give us a break Turkish: that's a straw man argument. Nobody is saying we're going to get 45k every week, but people are saying that we have potential for bigger gates. As pointed out we doubled on moving to SMS and it was often a scrabble for tickets which I avoided by having a season ticket. Getting them for friends was a real pain. Our 30k+ against Southend was the sort of crowd that Villa and Spurs wouldn't get, although I admit they had a better choice of games to go to. But to repeat a point, with the professionalism and backing we now have and a bit of success there's no doubt 32k would be too small. What the actual alternative might be is another matter.

 

"No doubt 32k is too small" is an equally straw man argument. I know lots of people are living in this fantasy land that we are on an unstoppable charge to year-in year-out fourth places but sorry, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't happened for any club our size and you people need to calm down a bit.

 

Even if we do a Bolton or a Stoke and hit 8th - 13th regularly, that in itself is not going to result in exponential growth in attendance. That level of achievement will become the norm. It doesn't bring in thousands and thousands of new fans through the door every season.

 

What has happened to Stoke's attendance year after year of Premier League excitement? Ummm. Nothing. It hasn't moved up a jot since promotion.

 

What has happened to Fulham's attendance year after year of Premier League excitement? Ummm. Nothing. It hasn't moved up a jot since promotion.

 

There's a lot of talk about our stadium being maxed out and too small, but I don't remember any kind of waiting list for season tickets while we were in the Prem. That's the only real indicator of potential additional attendance. Beyond the likely possibility that we could probably sell 35,000 or so tickets for the odd game against Man U there is nothing to suggest we are in any desperate need to have more fans.

 

Not if prices are reasonable for the run of the mill games, which a larger stadium would not only permit but encourage..

 

This is fantasy land. You have to pay to build the seats, and the whole point of more seats is to make revenue. You don't do that by driving the cost per seat down so you end up with no more revenue than you had before.

 

 

As pointed out we doubled on moving to SMS and it was often a scrabble for tickets which I avoided by having a season ticket. Getting them for friends was a real pain. .

 

This is my favourite quote. If we had 45,000 seater stadium, how many fans would need to buy a season ticket to avoid the "scrabble"? None.

 

You'd sell season tickets to those who want to go every match of course. But those that buy them to "guarantee seats" for the games they really want (scrabble avoiders, and there are a few of them) would have no reason to buy any more. So fewer season tickets sold and a far less solid guaranteed weekly attendance.

 

These "friends" will go to Man United games, or games when they are back visiting home (like I do), but "friends" will never go to Blackburn on a Tuesday night whether we have a 30,000 seater or a 90,000 seater stadium.

 

When supply begins to massively outstrip demand, the value of the commodity goes down and the need to own a season ticket becomes far less essential.

Let's get promoted, and earn ourselves a waiting list before we commit financial suicide through plastic seat vanity.

[Turkish]

/\ but you are forgetting we have a St Andrews or Britannia Stadium capacity amount of extra fans all desperate to queue for tickets to Blackburn at home on a tuesday night once we get back to the premier league who have all become Saints fans since our relegation in 2005 :lol:

[benjii]

I think one thing we can definitely say is that any decision to expand/relocate/whatever won't be motivated by the simplistic, "more fans in the ground" = "necessarily better" logic often espoused on here. A decision will be taken because it makes long-term sense, not to massage the egos of fans who want to get excited because they have a bigger ground than some other club. "More bums on seats" does not necessarily equal "more revenue" when some of those seats require investment, which is fixed and forever, against attendance, which is uncertain.

 

Cortese seems to be thinking big so I expect we have modelled various scenarios and have drawn up certain tentative plans but you can be sure they won't be predicated on simply getting more bums on seats.

Edited 22 June, 2011 by benjii

[CB Fry]

Sunderland have had 4 very average seasons in the top flight, in all 4 they have averaged over 40,000.

 

Sunderland has a population of approx 177,739 compared to Southamptons approx 236,700

 

Like Southampton, Sunderland have not won a major trophy for decades.

 

Why do people believe it's not possible for us to fill a 45,000 stadium, and average 40,000 in the top flight?

 

It's difficult to find an exact comparison, but when Sunderland were in the CCC and got to the play offs in 2004 (and lost) their avg attendance was 27k.

 

When Saints were in the CCC and got to the play offs and lost in 2007 our average was 23.5k, despite getting 30k odd against Southend and everything.

 

Our first season after relegation was also 23k or so. Sunderlands first season in the CCC in 2005 was 28k and in 1999 when they went down it was 38k.

 

 

With our gigantic population we will, of course, have absolutely no problem blowing Sunderland's second tier attendance numbers clean out of the water next season.

 

Sunderland have a bigger base fanbase than we do where it matters.

 

Let's stop living in Premier League fantasy land and lets see how the second tier reality plays out next season.

[CB Fry]

Apologies, small error. Sunderland's attendance in their first season back in the second tier was 34k, not 38k.

 

Point still stands. Population figures are an utter irrelevence when Sunderland frankly have more fans going to games than we do.

[Turkish]

It's difficult to find an exact comparison, but when Sunderland were in the CCC and got to the play offs in 2004 (and lost) their avg attendance was 27k.

 

When Saints were in the CCC and got to the play offs and lost in 2007 our average was 23.5k, despite getting 30k odd against Southend and everything.

 

Our first season after relegation was also 23k or so. Sunderlands first season in the CCC in 2005 was 28k and in 1999 when they went down it was 38k.

 

 

With our gigantic population we will, of course, have absolutely no problem blowing Sunderland's second tier attendance numbers clean out of the water next season.

 

Sunderland have a bigger base fanbase than we do where it matters.

 

Let's stop living in Premier League fantasy land and lets see how the second tier reality plays out next season.

 

"No doubt 32k is too small" is an equally straw man argument. I know lots of people are living in this fantasy land that we are on an unstoppable charge to year-in year-out fourth places but sorry, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't happened for any club our size and you people need to calm down a bit.

 

Even if we do a Bolton or a Stoke and hit 8th - 13th regularly, that in itself is not going to result in exponential growth in attendance. That level of achievement will become the norm. It doesn't bring in thousands and thousands of new fans through the door every season.

 

What has happened to Stoke's attendance year after year of Premier League excitement? Ummm. Nothing. It hasn't moved up a jot since promotion.

 

What has happened to Fulham's attendance year after year of Premier League excitement? Ummm. Nothing. It hasn't moved up a jot since promotion.

 

There's a lot of talk about our stadium being maxed out and too small, but I don't remember any kind of waiting list for season tickets while we were in the Prem. That's the only real indicator of potential additional attendance. Beyond the likely possibility that we could probably sell 35,000 or so tickets for the odd game against Man U there is nothing to suggest we are in any desperate need to have more fans.

 

 

 

This is fantasy land. You have to pay to build the seats, and the whole point of more seats is to make revenue. You don't do that by driving the cost per seat down so you end up with no more revenue than you had before.

 

 

 

 

This is my favourite quote. If we had 45,000 seater stadium, how many fans would need to buy a season ticket to avoid the "scrabble"? None.

 

You'd sell season tickets to those who want to go every match of course. But those that buy them to "guarantee seats" for the games they really want (scrabble avoiders, and there are a few of them) would have no reason to buy any more. So fewer season tickets sold and a far less solid guaranteed weekly attendance.

 

These "friends" will go to Man United games, or games when they are back visiting home (like I do), but "friends" will never go to Blackburn on a Tuesday night whether we have a 30,000 seater or a 90,000 seater stadium.

 

When supply begins to massively outstrip demand, the value of the commodity goes down and the need to own a season ticket becomes far less essential.

Let's get promoted, and earn ourselves a waiting list before we commit financial suicide through plastic seat vanity.

 

Two of the best and most realistic posts i've ever read on this forum which is full of deluded clowns. Now can we shut up once and for all about getting 50k crowds FFS.

[hypochondriac]

Cb fry has a tendency to speak sense and show others up for what they are. Largely deluded.

[MarkSFC]

In the top flight when our capacity was 23-24k after benches etc....we filled the Dell. Wen this was further reduced to just over 15k we filled it. When St Marys was built we filled it.

 

It a very fair point though that when Saints are not in the top flight we are not brilliantly supported, well not as good as some.

 

But, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that "in the top flight" we culd not achieve at least 38-40 k attendances.

 

We all know we have over 50,000 keen supporters when the game is right, so why ever not should we not get around 40K when in the top flight and dooing ok?

 

Those who doubt this are entitled to their opinion of course but they are short sighted. Over the vast majority of the last 50 years we have been a top flight club. The times outside of the top flight hit us hard and for whatever reason we do not support in the same numbers. The solution.....stay in top flight FFS!!!!

[Turkish]

In the top flight when our capacity was 23-24k after benches etc....we filled the Dell. Wen this was further reduced to just over 15k we filled it. When St Marys was built we filled it.

 

It a very fair point though that when Saints are not in the top flight we are not brilliantly supported, well not as good as some.

 

But, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that "in the top flight" we culd not achieve at least 38-40 k attendances.

 

We all know we have over 50,000 keen supporters when the game is right, so why ever not should we not get around 40K when in the top flight and dooing ok?

 

Those who doubt this are entitled to their opinion of course but they are short sighted. Over the vast majority of the last 50 years we have been a top flight club. The times outside of the top flight hit us hard and for whatever reason we do not support in the same numbers. The solution.....stay in top flight FFS!!!!

 

And there is no evidence to suggest there will, bar one game of day trippers jumping on the bandwagon, these are not "keen supporters". Lets not forget Millwall have also taken 50k to Wembley in the recent past and they are lucky to get 15k at the New Den. I dont recall them saying they need a bigger stadium if they get to the premier league to support thier newly found massive fan base.

 

Speculation that we suddenly have twice as many fans as we have right now is just that. In the PL we sold out most weeks, just about. No waiting least for season tickets, everyone that wanted a ticket got one. There is Zero evidence to suggest we could regularly get crowds of 40k, other than you lot dreaming about it.

[MarkSFC]

And there is no evidence to suggest there will, bar one game of day trippers jumping on the bandwagon, these are not "keen supporters". Lets not forget Millwall have also taken 50k to Wembley in the recent past and they are lucky to get 15k at the New Den. I dont recall them saying they need a bigger stadium if they get to the premier league to support thier newly found massive fan base.

 

Speculation that we suddenly have twice as many fans as we have right now is just that. In the PL we sold out most weeks, just about. No waiting least for season tickets, everyone that wanted a ticket got one. There is Zero evidence to suggest we could regularly get crowds of 40k, other than you lot dreaming about it.

 

 

I dont think that we must have a 40k stadium but I do think that the potential is there. I do think though that the Leibherrs WILL either build a new stadium OR expand St Marys because at some point (according to many on here, they surely must cash in) a new or bigger improved stadium will definitely help. In 10 years time St Marys will look very average.

[egg]

Can't believe this thread. Can't be arsed to read it all but I get the point.

 

We didn't need a bigger stadium when were in the prem, so don't need one now. If aNd when we go up, aNd people are begging for tickets on a regular basis, perhaps this thread would have relevance.

[Matthew Le God]

Imagine Saints were in the Premier League having previously finished 8th the season before, with a owner that was investing in the team (unlike any other point in Saints history) and that St Mary's had a capacity of 46,000. The larger stadium would allow for more flexible pricing structures and cheaper tickets in some areas of the stadium.

 

Of course there are many other factors involved (such as when the game is, if on TV or not, state of the league at the time etc), but have a guess how many would go to each of these games...

 

Man Utd =

Arsenal =

Chelsea =

Liverpool =

Sunderland =

Tottenham =

Man City =

Newcastle =

Everton =

Aston Villa =

QPR =

Wolves =

Stoke =

Fulham =

Bolton =

Norwich =

Blackburn =

West Brom =

Wigan =

 

Then work out the average for the 19 games =

 

I find it hard to believe anyone can seriously argue it wouldn't be more than any of these averages...

 

2004–05: 30,610

2003–04: 31,699

2002–03: 30,680

2001–02: 30,633

Edited 22 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

Imagine Saints were in the Premier League having previously finished 8th the season before, with a owner that was investing in the team (unlike any other point in Saints history) and that St Mary's had a capacity of 46,000.

 

Of course there are many other factors involved (such as when the game is, if on TV or not, state of the league at the time etc), but have a guess how many would go to each of these games...

 

Man Utd =

Arsenal =

Chelsea =

Liverpool =

Sunderland =

Tottenham =

Man City =

Newcastle =

Everton =

Aston Villa =

QPR =

Wolves =

Stoke =

Fulham =

Bolton =

Norwich =

Blackburn =

West Brom =

Wigan =

 

Then work out the average for the 19 games =

 

 

 

Are you for real?

 

There's hypothetical and then there's just pathetic.

 

We are not a top eight prem side ffs.

[Matthew Le God]

We are not a top eight prem side ffs.

 

That is the point of hypothetical.

 

Saints have been a top 8 side as recently as 2003, so is it really that hard to imagine? Football infrastructure is long term and the club will aim to benefit from any capacity increases of many decades. Football can change a lot in that time, just compare the top flight today with that of 20 or 30 years ago.

Edited 22 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

That is the point of hypothetical.

 

Saints have been a top 8 side as recently as 2003, so is it really that hard to imagine?

 

 

 

But we did not need a larger stadium then so why the discussion about expansion now, when we are in a lower league.

 

If we get back up and are turning people away consistently the decision will be an easy one. Until then its pointless.

[Matthew Le God]

But we did not need a larger stadium then so why the discussion about expansion now, when we are in a lower league.

 

If we get back up and are turning people away consistently the decision will be an easy one. Until then its pointless.

 

Why didn't Saints? Many games sold out, and the average was over 30k every year in the Premier League at St Mary's (including the relegation season). Had St Mary's been for example 46k when Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man City, Tottenham etc turn up do you think sales would never pass the 32k mark?

 

Saints have had 30k+ attendances whilst being a League One team with League One players, to think it wouldn't be higher if Saints had Premier League players in their squad and were playing a Premier League team is more deluded than any of the pessimistic fans are accusing me of being.

[Matthew Le God]

For those that think it isn't going to happen listen to this from 37 minutes onwards...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/8565914.stm

 

Or read the fan dinner threads by Spudgun, LadySaint etc?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?26889-Dinner-with-Nicola-Cortese

 

Or seen Cortese meet actions with words by building a state of the art training ground and category one academy?

 

http://web3.newforest.gov.uk/planningonline/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=173436

Edited 22 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

We will not be getting an expanded stadium anytime soon.

 

We are in the second division. We did not sell out every game when we were here last and an didn't when we weRe in the prem.

 

If aNd when We go up things may change. For now this thread is pointless.

[Matthew Le God]

We will not be getting an expanded stadium anytime soon.

 

We are in the second division. We did not sell out every game when we were here last and an didn't when we weRe in the prem.

 

Have you listened to the interview and seen the two links? These are noises coming out of the club, not just optimistic/deluded fans.

 

If aNd when We go up things may change. For now this thread is pointless.

 

Not pointless at all, this is a forum to discuss Saints related topics. There are noises of stadium development or even relocation if needed coming from those running the club. Not just idle fan gossip from the optimistic/deluded as some claim.

[egg]

Yes.

 

It is merely a proposed concept for the future. Granted, a lovely one at that.

 

Cortese is a shrewd businessman. He would not throw money at a potential whiTe elephant.

 

As I have said, should we go up this may be a runner. Until then it is pointless.

[Trader]

If we go way back, let's see what history tells us.

 

At the Dell in the 60's - old First Division we rarely if ever had capacity crowds, the capacity then was about 30k.

 

This at a time when the really big clubs used to get 60k regularly.

 

The price on the Milton Road terrace was 4/6 - equivalent to about 2 pints of beer or around about £7 today.

 

Pay on the gate - no faffing around with tickets or ticket tax and we still couldn't sell out.

 

The reality is that we live in a largely middle class area where most people couldn't give 2 ****s about football and that will never change, most of our "catchment area" is open countryside.

[aintforever]

The reality is that we live in a largely middle class area where most people couldn't give 2 ****s about football and that will never change, most of our "catchment area" is open countryside.

 

I think that is where you are wrong, the demographics of football have changed, it's now all about middle class families with money to blow (plenty of them round here) not working class males looking for a fight. And over the last few decades much of that open countryside has had things called houses built on round here, again filled with middle class families with plenty of disposable income.

 

looking at stats history is not that relevant IMO.

[egg]

I think that is where you are wrong, the demographics of football have changed, it's now all about middle class families with money to blow (plenty of them round here) not working class males looking for a fight. And over the last few decades much of that open countryside has had things called houses built on round here, again filled with middle class families with plenty of disposable income.

 

looking at stats history is not that relevant IMO.

 

 

 

But you can't ignore facts. We've only ever consistently sold out when the dell was at its reduced capacity. We didn't sell out when we were last in the prem so we're not going to sell out while we're in the championship.

 

Can someone please explain the point of this discussion given our league status, and the resultant likely crowds?

[Sour Mash]

Imagine Saints were in the Premier League having previously finished 8th the season before, with a owner that was investing in the team (unlike any other point in Saints history) and that St Mary's had a capacity of 46,000. The larger stadium would allow for more flexible pricing structures and cheaper tickets in some areas of the stadium.

 

Of course there are many other factors involved (such as when the game is, if on TV or not, state of the league at the time etc), but have a guess how many would go to each of these games...

 

Man Utd =

Arsenal =

Chelsea =

Liverpool =

Sunderland =

Tottenham =

Man City =

Newcastle =

Everton =

Aston Villa =

QPR =

Wolves =

Stoke =

Fulham =

Bolton =

Norwich =

Blackburn =

West Brom =

Wigan =

 

Then work out the average for the 19 games =

 

I find it hard to believe anyone can seriously argue it wouldn't be more than any of these averages...

 

2004–05: 30,610

2003–04: 31,699

2002–03: 30,680

2001–02: 30,633

 

No-one is saying that we wouldn't necesarrily average over 30k for such a season. But the point is we need to be doing a lot more than just averaging over 30k to justify the cost and risk of major construction works to expand and/or rebuild the ground. To make it worthwhile, the club would need to be confident of averaging 40k+ and there is currently very little precedent for that ever being the case. Even the biggest games at St Marys when we were in the Prem, anyone who really wanted a ticket could get one, it was never too much hassle.

 

Just because "noises" are coming from the club that its something they might be interested in does not mean it is actually going to happen.

[Sour Mash]

I think that is where you are wrong, the demographics of football have changed, it's now all about middle class families with money to blow (plenty of them round here) not working class males looking for a fight. And over the last few decades much of that open countryside has had things called houses built on round here, again filled with middle class families with plenty of disposable income.

 

looking at stats history is not that relevant IMO.

 

As much as people like a moan about the changing demographics of football supporters, Prawn Sandwich Brigade etc, to say "its all about middle class families" is an absolute myth. Look around you in the Northam, Kingsland North, Itchen North etc, it really hasn't changed that much, certainly not at our level. The post was correct, our "catchment area" covers a lot of rural areas that can definitely not be described as footballing areas in the same way as Sunderland's can.

[Junction 9]

But you can't ignore facts. We've only ever consistently sold out when the dell was at its reduced capacity. We didn't sell out when we were last in the prem so we're not going to sell out while we're in the championship.

 

Can someone please explain the point of this discussion given our league status, and the resultant likely crowds?

 

There isn't much point to it other than to point out to MLG that he's talking nonsense. The majority seem to think St Marys is fine and with good reason.

I would consent we might get 35k crowds now and agan for big matches if we were back in the Prem, but that's about it.

Looking into the future we don't know how football attendances will go, in my opinion they will level out or even fall. Why would the Premier league brand get even more popular than it is now? Also, it wouldn't surpirse me in the slightest if the club was sold in the future. Even if we wasn't this was Markus's dream not the Liebherr's and I can never see a time where Cortese is saying lets spend £50 million on a Tevez or a Modric and that's the sort of signing and more that would be needed for a 45K crowd in this area. We'd need to attract fans fom the home counties as well I'd have thought.

Anyway MLG isn't going to give up on this anytime soon, I just hope we never end up end with this mega stadium that spends 99% of the time with a third of the seats empty. I don't think Cortese is that daft though.

[charlie saint]

As much as people like a moan about the changing demographics of football supporters, Prawn Sandwich Brigade etc, to say "its all about middle class families" is an absolute myth. Look around you in the Northam, Kingsland North, Itchen North etc, it really hasn't changed that much, certainly not at our level. The post was correct, our "catchment area" covers a lot of rural areas that can definitely not be described as footballing areas in the same way as Sunderland's can.

 

Plus, as a self confessed middle-class, middle aged, unemployed, mortgaged man who goes to football (when I go -I live in Kent) with his wife - can I also blow the myth that people like me have plenty of disposable income? Christ, I wish I was 20 years younger, single, still living with my mum. THAT's the group with 'disposable income'.

[The Kraken]

Imagine Saints were in the Premier League having previously finished 8th the season before, with a owner that was investing in the team (unlike any other point in Saints history) and that St Mary's had a capacity of 46,000. The larger stadium would allow for more flexible pricing structures and cheaper tickets in some areas of the stadium.

 

Why would it? Why would spending many millions of pounds on an increased capacity mean that we would then lower our prices? It makes no commercial sense whatsoever. The only point of increasing capacity would be to satisfy an increased demand; and if demand is there, again it makes no commercial sense at all to sell tickets at a lower premium than could be achieved.

 

I'm sure Arsenal fans would love it if your business model was applied to ther ticket pricing; unfortunately they found the very opposite to be true upon departure of Highbury and arrival at the Emirates.

[Turkish]

SFC = The only club in the world where the more successful and bigger we get, the more we pay on wages and transfer fees and stadium expanision the cheaper the ticket price gets.

[The9]

For those that think it isn't going to happen listen to this from 37 minutes onwards...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/8565914.stm

 

Or read the fan dinner threads by Spudgun, LadySaint etc?

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?26889-Dinner-with-Nicola-Cortese

 

Or seen Cortese meet actions with words by building a state of the art training ground and category one academy?

 

http://web3.newforest.gov.uk/planningonline/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=173436

 

I don't want to p155 on your chips here, but I actually have just done that.

 

The Cortese interview (March 2010), when asked about the stadium, says [i'll put Cortese's bits in italics] :

 

They are restructuring areas to be more user friendly - getting beer into people's hands more quickly.

The bigger picture, it is much too early to be talking about redevelopment.

 

There is some immediate action being taken to improve stadium by having an activity centre and business centre - that was in the planning phase.

 

When asked about the feasibility of a stadium "not here" Cortese said it was never too early to talk about it, but was clearly placating the interviewer.

 

He mentioned that traffic problems (eg Portsmouth game) means that the stadium could be seen as being not in the right location - UNLESS the area around the ground could develop as well. There was a workshop with city council coming up. So basically he was saying "the council can help solve the traffic problems by discussing this with us". I should think all the "Northam Rd is a Public Highway" stuff came out of that.

 

Regarding the location, Cortese then says regarding the workshop coming up about development, "if they make us comfortable" he (and this is a hell of an ambiguous key sentence) he "wouldn't see a reason, if we have any plans to develop, to increase the capacity by not doing it here", but also that this wouldn't exclude the possibility of building a new stadium somewhere else.

 

All very vague and non-committal.

 

And as for the fan dinner, barely anything about development, in response to your direct questions

 

1) How far along are they? What timescale are we looking at?

2) Is a relocation still an option if it isn't possible to develop St Mary's?

3) They think the club "could" average 45,000 in the Premier League, but how big would they make the stadium? 48k? 50k?

4) What in terms of development do they want to do around the stadium along with the railway station?:

 

"We didn't go into those kind of details"

and

"It sounded to me like there were plans to extend St Mary's, but until we actually get back to the premiership it's all speculation and ideas. There was also talk about development of the waterfront and potential for a ferry terminal, but again, the development to the area as a whole is in the hands of the council rather than Saints."

 

And of course, the training ground / academy development is entirely unlinked to the development of the ground.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by The9

[The9]

SFC = The only club in the world where the more successful and bigger we get, the more we pay on wages and transfer fees and stadium expanision the cheaper the ticket price gets.

 

There are a few Premier League clubs who are charging the same for STs now as 5 years ago despite the VAT increase and Bolton and Fulham of those are more successful than they were - but few are developing their grounds any more so it's a difficult comparison. Most built them appropriately in the first place - as Saints did for our goal of Prem Existence on a Shoestring in 2001.

 

Bolton built a new ground which they rarely fill anyway, and Fulham have developed as far as possible but sell to neutrals and have an aggressive marketing policy (which includes cheaper tickets and ST holders bringing a friend for free, as it happens). They've also been in a Europa League final in the last 14 months.

 

Plenty of Premier League sides have frozen or even dropped ticket prices (or have staggered ticket prices to reflect demand) despite higher wages than those in the Championship - the tv money pays for it.

[Sour Mash]

There are a few Premier League clubs who are charging the same for STs now as 5 years ago despite the VAT increase and Bolton and Fulham of those are more successful than they were - but few are developing their grounds any more so it's a difficult comparison. Most built them appropriately in the first place - as Saints did for our goal of Prem Existence on a Shoestring in 2001.

 

Bolton built a new ground which they rarely fill anyway, and Fulham have developed as far as possible but sell to neutrals and have an aggressive marketing policy (which includes cheaper tickets and ST holders bringing a friend for free, as it happens). They've also been in a Europa League final in the last 14 months.

 

Plenty of Premier League sides have frozen or even dropped ticket prices (or have staggered ticket prices to reflect demand) despite higher wages than those in the Championship - the tv money pays for it.

 

All quite correct. But the point is, why bother to increase capacity if you then have to lower ticket prices to fill it, therefore not earning so much more income after all the additional costs are taken on board.

[The Kraken]

Plenty of Premier League sides have frozen or even dropped ticket prices (or have staggered ticket prices to reflect demand) despite higher wages than those in the Championship - the tv money pays for it.

 

A lot of Premier League clubs have dropped their prices, in order to actually try and fill their ground. The price change has been forced upon those clubs (particularly in the north-west where there is massive local competition) as they are continually seeing empty seats every week. There's simply no point building a new stadium to then have an enormous struggle to sell tickets for the increased capacity.

 

Your second point is one I have been making for a while. Increased stadium capacity for Saints is just an exercise in vanity. The real additional revenues come in prize money, television rights and sponsorship. When compared to the massive earning potential of those three, the extra revenues gained from an additional few thousand tickets on a matches pales really equates to small change.

[Wes Tender]

LOL. £100 million + to expand SMS and buy players to to get us to a top half premier league club and prices are going to come down!!! Mental.

 

Kindly read Suewhistle's post again, this time with a bit more objectivity and tell me where she said that prices would be lower with a larger stadium.

What she actually said, was that attendances could be higher "if prices are reasonable". That does not infer a price reduction, so I believe you owe her an apology for calling her mental.

 

And I note that CB Fry also made exactly the same mistake in misinterpreting what she had said too, although that is not a great surprise.

 

It seems to me, that those who label anybody else as being a sandwich short of a picnic if they express the opinion that we could regularly fill a 40,000 seater stadium, are basing a lot of their arguments on historical precedents, or false comparisons. What relevance attaches for example to comparisons of our club in the past, when we have a completely different set-up now than ever before in our history? We've struggled to fill the stadium in the Premiership before, so naturally that is set in concrete that we will struggle again. Factors then, such as having to sell the better players to stay afloat are overlooked now that our fortunes have changed. What if we not only kept the promising players, but added a smattering of big names, who could draw in more fans? You have to go back to probably Keegan as the last player that had that affect.

 

Another flaw in the arguments against our ability to increase attendances in a larger stadium, is that we are compared with clubs where there is much more competition from their localities. Look at all the competition for bums on seats there is for clubs like Fulham and Bolton from the surrounding areas. Hardly a good example, comparing them with our situation where the nearest serious rival has been the Skates, who are on their way down. If we were successful for a sustained period in the Premiership, we will have one of the biggest catchment areas of any top division team.

 

As for the pricing, the sensible policy is the one adopted by the previous regime when we were last in the Premiership. Matches will sensibly be graded Gold, Silver and Bronze and priced accordingly. Naturally, in case anybody misreads this as advocating reduced prices, those bronze prices will be higher than the prices now in the second division. But they should be set at the reasonable level mentioned by suewhistle. There is an optimum price that enables the club to operate successfully financially, but encourages attendances because it is deemed to be attractive and reasonable. It is up to the club to achieve that price structure.

 

Nobody in reality can assess with any accuracy what our optimum capacity will be under any set of circumstances, from top ten in the Premiership, right up to Champions league football, until we actually achieve those situations.

[Wes Tender]

 

Your second point is one I have been making for a while. Increased stadium capacity for Saints is just an exercise in vanity. The real additional revenues come in prize money, television rights and sponsorship. When compared to the massive earning potential of those three, the extra revenues gained from an additional few thousand tickets on a matches pales really equates to small change.

 

To an extent, you're right. But greater attendances also have other repercussions on the club's income streams. Such as increased takings from merchandising, sale of food and drink in the concourses, additional revenue from Corporate hospitality, etc. Additionally, nothing is better for gaining longer term fans than actually getting them hooked from attending matches, rather than watching them on the box. A full larger stadium might be vanity, but it is also the greatest visible yardstick of the success of the brand and success breeds success.

[teamsaint]

Our stadium is more than adequate to sustain successful PL football, ie solid mid table .

 

If NC is seriously aiming for the next level, Champions league, the level at which we might conceivably need a much bigger stadium, he is deluded, or is planning to spend many 10's of millions of pounds of other peoples money, in fact probably 100's of millions.

There are only 2 games in town, PL and CL. CL is beyond bigger, better supported clubs with bigger catchments and history than us. solid mid table PL can be achieved on gates of 32000, just ask Fulham, bolton Stoke.. and US !!

Get back to the Pl and prices will rocket (again!). Get the place sold out for every game and the y will rise again. Rather easier than trying to massively expand or move.

[St_Tel49]

Kindly read Suewhistle's post again, this time with a bit more objectivity and tell me where she said that prices would be lower with a larger stadium.

What she actually said, was that attendances could be higher "if prices are reasonable". That does not infer a price reduction, so I believe you owe her an apology for calling her mental.

 

And I note that CB Fry also made exactly the same mistake in misinterpreting what she had said too, although that is not a great surprise.

 

It seems to me, that those who label anybody else as being a sandwich short of a picnic if they express the opinion that we could regularly fill a 40,000 seater stadium, are basing a lot of their arguments on historical precedents, or false comparisons. What relevance attaches for example to comparisons of our club in the past, when we have a completely different set-up now than ever before in our history? We've struggled to fill the stadium in the Premiership before, so naturally that is set in concrete that we will struggle again. Factors then, such as having to sell the better players to stay afloat are overlooked now that our fortunes have changed. What if we not only kept the promising players, but added a smattering of big names, who could draw in more fans? You have to go back to probably Keegan as the last player that had that affect.

 

Another flaw in the arguments against our ability to increase attendances in a larger stadium, is that we are compared with clubs where there is much more competition from their localities. Look at all the competition for bums on seats there is for clubs like Fulham and Bolton from the surrounding areas. Hardly a good example, comparing them with our situation where the nearest serious rival has been the Skates, who are on their way down. If we were successful for a sustained period in the Premiership, we will have one of the biggest catchment areas of any top division team.

 

As for the pricing, the sensible policy is the one adopted by the previous regime when we were last in the Premiership. Matches will sensibly be graded Gold, Silver and Bronze and priced accordingly. Naturally, in case anybody misreads this as advocating reduced prices, those bronze prices will be higher than the prices now in the second division. But they should be set at the reasonable level mentioned by suewhistle. There is an optimum price that enables the club to operate successfully financially, but encourages attendances because it is deemed to be attractive and reasonable. It is up to the club to achieve that price structure.

 

Nobody in reality can assess with any accuracy what our optimum capacity will be under any set of circumstances, from top ten in the Premiership, right up to Champions league football, until we actually achieve those situations.

 

Well said Wes. Some people on here make negativity into an art form but in truth it is the easiest position to take. In the course of time things do inevitably go wrong at which point the negs can pipe up and say "See- we were right". It is in the nature of things that there will be good times and there will be bad times (sometimes not far apart as we can testify) but ultimately a lot more is achieved with positive thinking than with negative thinking. NC is a positive thinker but he's no fool.

[Turkish]

Well said Wes. Some people on here make negativity into an art form but in truth it is the easiest position to take. In the course of time things do inevitably go wrong at which point the negs can pipe up and say "See- we were right". It is in the nature of things that there will be good times and there will be bad times (sometimes not far apart as we can testify) but ultimately a lot more is achieved with positive thinking than with negative thinking. NC is a positive thinker but he's no fool.

 

YOu are confusing negativity with realism. Can we get more than 32k provided we invest heavily to make us a top half side, expand the stadium etc? Probably. Are we one of the best supported clubs in England, which some claim we are judging by their claims we could get 50k on some occasions? Absolutely not.

 

I would love us to play in front of 50k a week at a sold out SMS but there is not one single piece of evidence that suggests we will. In one of our best ever seasons in 2003 generally if you wanted a ticket you got one. There was no waiting list for season tickets, no same day sell outs for big games etc etc. I know some of you seem to think that we are the new Barcelona and can become a champions league club with ease but do you really think there are another 20-30,000 Saints fans who would go regularly spending saturdays going for walks in th new forest at the moment as they are waiting for us to expand the stadium, sign world class players etc etc???

[Turkish]

Kindly read Suewhistle's post again, this time with a bit more objectivity and tell me where she said that prices would be lower with a larger stadium.

What she actually said, was that attendances could be higher "if prices are reasonable". That does not infer a price reduction, so I believe you owe her an apology for calling her mental.

 

And I note that CB Fry also made exactly the same mistake in misinterpreting what she had said too, although that is not a great surprise.

 

It seems to me, that those who label anybody else as being a sandwich short of a picnic if they express the opinion that we could regularly fill a 40,000 seater stadium, are basing a lot of their arguments on historical precedents, or false comparisons. What relevance attaches for example to comparisons of our club in the past, when we have a completely different set-up now than ever before in our history? We've struggled to fill the stadium in the Premiership before, so naturally that is set in concrete that we will struggle again. Factors then, such as having to sell the better players to stay afloat are overlooked now that our fortunes have changed. What if we not only kept the promising players, but added a smattering of big names, who could draw in more fans? You have to go back to probably Keegan as the last player that had that affect.

 

Another flaw in the arguments against our ability to increase attendances in a larger stadium, is that we are compared with clubs where there is much more competition from their localities. Look at all the competition for bums on seats there is for clubs like Fulham and Bolton from the surrounding areas. Hardly a good example, comparing them with our situation where the nearest serious rival has been the Skates, who are on their way down. If we were successful for a sustained period in the Premiership, we will have one of the biggest catchment areas of any top division team.

 

As for the pricing, the sensible policy is the one adopted by the previous regime when we were last in the Premiership. Matches will sensibly be graded Gold, Silver and Bronze and priced accordingly. Naturally, in case anybody misreads this as advocating reduced prices, those bronze prices will be higher than the prices now in the second division. But they should be set at the reasonable level mentioned by suewhistle. There is an optimum price that enables the club to operate successfully financially, but encourages attendances because it is deemed to be attractive and reasonable. It is up to the club to achieve that price structure.

 

Nobody in reality can assess with any accuracy what our optimum capacity will be under any set of circumstances, from top ten in the Premiership, right up to Champions league football, until we actually achieve those situations.

 

Thanks for being offended for her. As has been mentioned what do people class as reasonable? People are *****ing about paying £30 a game this season despite us going up a level.

 

So come on what evidence is there that we can regularly get 40k+ crowds, which would make us one of the top 5 clubs in the country, other than you lot dreaming about it. Where are these extra 20,000+ fans right now? Where were they in 2003 when it was easy to get a ticket, despite our best season in 20 years.

[Matthew Le God]

So come on what evidence is there that we can regularly get 40k+ crowds, which would make us one of the top 5 clubs in the country, other than you lot dreaming about it.

 

As I previously explained to you, you are assuming clubs like Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea etc are currently at their maximum. That is simply not the case, they are restricted by their stadium and if they all had 60k stadiums they could fill them.

[Matthew Le God]

Where were they in 2003 when it was easy to get a ticket, despite our best season in 20 years.

 

That is nonsense, many games sold out long in advance of the day of the match. That season the club averaged 31,699 in a 32,689 seater stadium, when you take into account segregation that shows supply was struggling to cope with demand, for what was essentially a mid table campaign for a club that wasn't spending money on the team.

Edited 23 June, 2011 by Matthew Le God

[Wes Tender]

There are only 2 games in town, PL and CL. CL is beyond bigger, better supported clubs with bigger catchments and history than us. solid mid table PL can be achieved on gates of 32000, just ask Fulham, bolton Stoke.. and US !!

 

Once again, I point out that neither Fulham or Bolton are good examples to compare against us, because of the proximity of other big glory teams in their immediate vicinity.

 

Within a 20 mile radius of Bolton are both ManUre and City, Blackburn and Wigan of the top flight clubs. Also within that radius are Rochdale, Bury, Burnley, Oldham and Stockport.

 

I trust I don't have to list the number of London clubs within an even smaller radius of Fulham.

 

Stoke are the only reasonable exception on your list. But then again, there's not much in the way of large urban development to match that which we have within a reasonable travelling distance to us.

[Wes Tender]

Thanks for being offended for her. As has been mentioned what do people class as reasonable? People are *****ing about paying £30 a game this season despite us going up a level.

 

So come on what evidence is there that we can regularly get 40k+ crowds, which would make us one of the top 5 clubs in the country, other than you lot dreaming about it. Where are these extra 20,000+ fans right now? Where were they in 2003 when it was easy to get a ticket, despite our best season in 20 years.

 

I'm not being offended for her. I just pointed out that you ought to read what is said more carefully and don't misconstrue its meaning to suit your viewpoint.

 

If you read my last sentence, you will see that my position is that it is not possible to assess with any accuracy what the situation would be regarding the potential capacity requirments until we reach a position of success that might justify them. But to counter your position, where is your evidence that it would not be possible to fill a 40,000 seater stadium?

[egg]

where is your evidence that it would not be possible to fill a 40,000 seater stadium?

 

 

Priceless!

 

Can you really imagine Cortese approaching the Liebherr money men and asking for 50mil to expand the stadium on the basis that there's no evidence that we won't fill an expanded stadium?

[Avenue Saint]

I'm not being offended for her. I just pointed out that you ought to read what is said more carefully and don't misconstrue its meaning to suit your viewpoint.

 

If you read my last sentence, you will see that my position is that it is not possible to assess with any accuracy what the situation would be regarding the potential capacity requirments until we reach a position of success that might justify them. But to counter your position, where is your evidence that it would not be possible to fill a 40,000 seater stadium?

 

good post. dont worry too much about it, you cant talk people to sense..

 

Turkish is just an argumentative ****. just check how many posts he ends with "ffs" lmao!!