Public Sector Pensions - Today's Times

[dune]

Good documentary on More 4 now about the miners strikes.

 

Makes me very proud to see how Maggie crushed the Socialists/Marxists.

[Fuengirola Saint]

That's this thread gone full circle then: The private sector don't go on strike because they are pragmatic and understand the impact of strike action on society.

 

 

No, the reason the Private sector don't strike is because they are too busy moaning about what public sector workers fought for and got through solidarity and too busy stitching each other up!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Good documentary on More 4 now about the miners strikes.

 

Makes me very proud to see how Maggie crushed the Socialists/Marxists.

 

Come on Dune, I think what the Tories did to the mining communities was not something to be celebrated. These were good people with good values and the situation should have been handled less ruthlessly.

[badgerx16]

Good documentary on More 4 now about the miners strikes.

 

Makes me very proud to see how Maggie crushed the Socialists/Marxists.

 

When you look in the mirror, what the f*** do you see ?

[Jonnyboy]

When you look in the mirror, what the f*** do you see ?

 

I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

[Seaford Saint]

Good documentary on More 4 now about the miners strikes.

 

Makes me very proud to see how Maggie crushed the Socialists/Marxists.

 

You were telling us that you had Christian values last month

[suewhistle]

I think the greatest trick that the government has pulled in all this is to pit 'private sector' against 'public sector'. It's simply not that cut and dried, but they've done a brilliant spin job on each to demonise the other, thus when either gets screwed there is no sympathy. Divide and conquer. Superb.

 

We ALL, regardless of which 'sector' we work in, have an interest in protecting ALL of our pay and conditions. If the public sector suffers, the private sector suffers, and vice versa. Some of you talk about 'taxpayers' as if public sector works don't pay tax...

 

Exactly. Do we want everybody except the elites to be paid crap? As has been pointed out all the countries with relatively equal pay distribution tend to be the happiest ones, and that is far, far from the current government's thinking.

 

What also gets me about the moaners is how they say they've accepted all the cuts to their pay without complaining, but complain about what they think other people get (based on what they read in the Mail or Sun). If you don't complain when you're shat upon or move to a better job it suggests either that you are a wimp or that you are in a weak negotiating position. Neither is a reason to complain about other people standing up for themselves and the contracts they accepted. As somebody pointed out, they were surprised how many good teachers wanted out when the opportunity arose, and I heard the same about the armed forces today. That suggests they think they can do as well (or better) elsewhere. Plenty of medics moving abroad too.

 

The level of debate "communist"; "taxpayer versus public sector" as if such a dichotomy existed, shows that some people have been failed by the education sector... or perhaps have always sat at the back of the class and never paid much attention, particularly to social history.

[Jonnyboy]

Exactly. Do we want everybody except the elites to be paid crap? As has been pointed out all the countries with relatively equal pay distribution tend to be the happiest ones, and that is far, far from the current government's thinking.

 

What also gets me about the moaners is how they say they've accepted all the cuts to their pay without complaining, but complain about what they think other people get (based on what they read in the Mail or Sun). If you don't complain when you're shat upon or move to a better job it suggests either that you are a wimp or that you are in a weak negotiating position. Neither is a reason to complain about other people standing up for themselves and the contracts they accepted. As somebody pointed out, they were surprised how many good teachers wanted out when the opportunity arose, and I heard the same about the armed forces today. That suggests they think they can do as well (or better) elsewhere. Plenty of medics moving abroad too.

 

The level of debate "communist"; "taxpayer versus public sector" as if such a dichotomy existed, shows that some people have been failed by the education sector... or perhaps have always sat at the back of the class and never paid much attention, particularly to social history.

 

[revolution saint]

Exactly. Do we want everybody except the elites to be paid crap? As has been pointed out all the countries with relatively equal pay distribution tend to be the happiest ones, and that is far, far from the current government's thinking.

 

What also gets me about the moaners is how they say they've accepted all the cuts to their pay without complaining, but complain about what they think other people get (based on what they read in the Mail or Sun). If you don't complain when you're shat upon or move to a better job it suggests either that you are a wimp or that you are in a weak negotiating position. Neither is a reason to complain about other people standing up for themselves and the contracts they accepted. As somebody pointed out, they were surprised how many good teachers wanted out when the opportunity arose, and I heard the same about the armed forces today. That suggests they think they can do as well (or better) elsewhere. Plenty of medics moving abroad too.

 

The level of debate "communist"; "taxpayer versus public sector" as if such a dichotomy existed, shows that some people have been failed by the education sector... or perhaps have always sat at the back of the class and never paid much attention, particularly to social history.

 

Good post, although sadly I don't think debate was ever really on the cards in this thread.

[shurlock]

Exactly. Do we want everybody except the elites to be paid crap? As has been pointed out all the countries with relatively equal pay distribution tend to be the happiest ones, and that is far, far from the current government's thinking.

 

The government wanted to introduce a pay cap in the public sector, limiting the pay of senior managers to 20 times that of the bottom of the organisation on the grounds of the research you're citing; but curiously, it fell silent on whether something similar should be extended to the private sector.

 

Saying that I dont think people are natural-born egalitarians. They are more hardheaded and willing to support inequalities where they believe they are deserved, where wealth is the product of talent, initiative and effort rather than luck, rigged markets and the contributions of others.

[Thedelldays]

I agree that the elite should not be paid as much. People like bob crow living a champagne life style sickens me

 

;-)

[CB Saint]

No I can't because I haven't seen actuarial evidence that this is so. When I first joined the NHS, shortly after a divorce and on average clerical wages, I simply couldn't afford to join the NHS pension scheme. Food and rent took priority. I could only afford to join once I'd been promoted to senior management level.

 

On that evidence, and judging by the experience of staff working for me, I can tell you that a large number of low paid NHS employees can't afford to join the scheme. So they're not going to benefit at all, regardless of how the pensions are calculated.

 

Incidentally the Local Government pension scheme is self funding and will be so for at least 25 years.

 

BTF, you have mentioned on a couple of these threads that local government pensions are self funding. I have a question (genuine interest). when you say self funding, do you mean that the years contributions by the members offsets that payments to the pensioners or do you mean that there is /will be enough in the pot to cover the next 25 years payments?

[sadoldgit]

Good documentary on More 4 now about the miners strikes.

 

Makes me very proud to see how Maggie crushed the Socialists/Marxists.

 

Yep, a highpoint in monumental career in which she single handily wiped any vestige of industry forn these shores so that we no longer produce anything and those with jobs work in the service industry meaning there are fewer job so even more people are on benefits. Yes, the unions were too powerful and yes they needed to be checked and ways other than striking found to deal with industrial problems. But by emasculating the unions she also emasculated the country.

[badgerx16]

BTF, you have mentioned on a couple of these threads that local government pensions are self funding. I have a question (genuine interest). when you say self funding, do you mean that the years contributions by the members offsets that payments to the pensioners or do you mean that there is /will be enough in the pot to cover the next 25 years payments?

On behalf of BTF, and as I too have mentioned this, the union side of this debate includes such an assertion :

 

http://www.unitetheunion.org/news__events/latest_news/ten_top_facts_on_local_governm.aspx

[JackanorySFC]

Those saying fairer societies are happier. Why after 13 years of labour did the gap between the rich and poor get greater? I only ask as those saying this keep referring to the Tories and how that is a Tory policy? I dont think that's fair as it was Labour that created the increased separation over a long period.

 

Have to admit I dint subscribe to this fair utupia, simply because I work hard to ensure I get paid more to do nice stuff, why should someone who doesn't work as hard as me get stuff as nice as me?

[badgerx16]

Have to admit I dint subscribe to this fair utupia, simply because I work hard to ensure I get paid more to do nice stuff, why should someone who doesn't work as hard as me get stuff as nice as me?

How do you know that somebody earning less than you do does not, in fact, work HARDER than you ?

[Thedelldays]

How do you know that somebody earning less than you do does not, in fact, work HARDER than you ?

 

depends doesnt it....would a window cleaner who work 60 hours a week deserve more than a manager of tescos who works 50 hours a week at a desk..?

[JackanorySFC]

How do you know that somebody earning less than you do does not, in fact, work HARDER than you ?

 

No problems admitting I know people that work hard and earn less than me. The great thing is they never moan about it, and say it's unfair, they're happy so crack on. My missus is a teacher, she'll happily admit my job requires far far longer hours, has more stress and is in a much less supportive environment, that's why I get paid more.

 

In my experience those that don't have either the skill set or ambition to get a better job that pays higher thus ensuring a higher quality of life for themselves a d their families are the ones bleating on about "fairness". I make my own "fairness" by getting up at 5.30 and commuting to London every day rather than getting up at 7, doing a cushy job that gets me home before 7 at night so I can come home to my missus and moan about how "unfair" life is. Get over it, work harder get rewarded and help this country get back onto it's feet after 13 tears of failed wealth redistribution that only resulted in higher gap between the rich and the poor!

[View From The Top]

In my experience those that don't have either the skill set or ambition to get a better job that pays higher thus ensuring a higher quality of life for themselves a d their families are the ones bleating on about "fairness". I make my own "fairness" by getting up at 5.30 and commuting to London every day rather than getting up at 7, doing a cushy job that gets me home before 7 at night so I can come home to my missus and moan about how "unfair" life is. Get over it, work harder get rewarded and help this country get back onto it's feet after 13 tears of failed wealth redistribution that only resulted in higher gap between the rich and the poor!

 

Let's see if you are not bleating when you've got kids and not seeing them due to work, getting older and feeling it and still doing that.

 

I know where my money is.

[View From The Top]

depends doesnt it....would a window cleaner who work 60 hours a week deserve more than a manager of tescos who works 50 hours a week at a desk..?

 

That wasn't the analogy. Simply put, someone earning less can be working harder for it. Salary isn't necessarily an indicator of effort. You should see that everyday in your own job.

[Thedelldays]

That wasn't the analogy. Simply put, someone earning less can be working harder for it. Salary isn't necessarily an indicator of effort. You should see that everyday in your own job.

 

I do...however, you have to also weigh up effort with responsibility and accountability..

I can tell you, I work harder than the CO..however, he has far more responsibility than me....

[View From The Top]

I do...however, you have to also weigh up effort with responsibility and accountability..

I can tell you, I work harder than the CO..however, he has far more responsibility than me....

 

I understand that Jamie, but it wasn't the point being made.

[JackanorySFC]

Let's see if you are not bleating when you've got kids and not seeing them due to work, getting older and feeling it and still doing that.

 

I know where my money is.

 

Very good points. If that happens I hope I'll make a balenced decision between getting a cushy job closer to home where I can watch any kids we have grow up whilst working hard to get them good stuff but setting an example where they know hard work = good stuff.

 

What I wont do is moan about people getting up and getting in 2 hours before and after me earning more as I would have done it and know how hard they're working to get it!

[View From The Top]

Very good points. If that happens I hope I'll make a balenced decision between getting a cushy job closer to home where I can watch any kids we have grow up whilst working hard to get them good stuff but setting an example where they know hard work = good stuff.

 

What I wont do is moan about people getting up and getting in 2 hours before and after me earning more as I would have done it and know how hard they're working to get it!

 

Good attitude. Trust me, be at home with the kids, it's way more important than money and if you missing them growing up you'll regret it till your dying day.

 

I've chased the big bucks and now I'm happy with the quite life with the kids. I watch the young turks climbing the ladder and smile knowingly.

[revolution saint]

Those saying fairer societies are happier. Why after 13 years of labour did the gap between the rich and poor get greater? I only ask as those saying this keep referring to the Tories and how that is a Tory policy? I dont think that's fair as it was Labour that created the increased separation over a long period.

 

Have to admit I dint subscribe to this fair utupia, simply because I work hard to ensure I get paid more to do nice stuff, why should someone who doesn't work as hard as me get stuff as nice as me?

 

Well so far no one has said that fairer wealth distribution was a target of the last Labour Govt. In fact Blair actually came out and said that he was looking for equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome. New Labour pretty much gave up on the idea - mostly because electorally it's a pretty hard sell.

 

I think it's important to note that a fairer distribution would probably only affect the super rich rather than the merely rich and professional middle class. Something stupid like 5% of the country own 90% of the wealth of the country so 95% of people would actually be better off. You could actually argue that the last 30 years of govt., both Labour and Tory, has specifically introduced policy to make that 5% even richer so a reversal is long overdue and fairer.

 

Other countries manage to do it and we're NOT talking about communist style flat wage caps for everyone here, so why not?

[JackanorySFC]

Well so far no one has said that fairer wealth distribution was a target of the last Labour Govt. In fact Blair actually came out and said that he was looking for equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome. New Labour pretty much gave up on the idea - mostly because electorally it's a pretty hard sell.

 

I think it's important to note that a fairer distribution would probably only affect the super rich rather than the merely rich and professional middle class. Something stupid like 5% of the country own 90% of the wealth of the country so 95% of people would actually be better off. You could actually argue that the last 30 years of govt., both Labour and Tory, has specifically introduced policy to make that 5% even richer so a reversal is long overdue and fairer.

 

Other countries manage to do it and we're NOT talking about communist style flat wage caps for everyone here, so why not?

 

Simply because that top 5% and their taxes will go abroad to countries that would welcome them, their skills and tax money with open arms. Nice idea, but wouldn't work.

[revolution saint]

Simply because that top 5% and their taxes will go abroad to countries that would welcome them, their skills and tax money with open arms. Nice idea, but wouldn't work.

 

That's of course the standard answer and maybe that might happen, maybe it wouldn't. Does it happen in Denmark (I honestly don't know)? I'm personally sceptical that all of them would - maybe they would do what everyone else is doing, not complain and just get on with things (isn't that what most people on this thread are doing in the face of cuts?). We should give them the benefit of the doubt and give them that opportunity.

[View From The Top]

Simply because that top 5% and their taxes will go abroad to countries that would welcome them, their skills and tax money with open arms. Nice idea, but wouldn't work.

 

They may go, but their businesses remain and until the tax loopholes are closed on these the sense on injustice will prevail.

 

This is a global issue, not just a UK one.

 

I notice the banks have gone awfully quiet about quitting the UK despite the decision to separate the retail from the commercial. Why? Because they were never going to leave despite their rhetoric.

 

Only an idiot has an issue with some one making plenty of cash but everyone should pay their fair share and the simple truth is that plenty of very wealthy people avoid doing so and that, IMHO, is wrong.

[Jonnyboy]

Those saying fairer societies are happier. Why after 13 years of labour did the gap between the rich and poor get greater? I only ask as those saying this keep referring to the Tories and how that is a Tory policy? I dont think that's fair as it was Labour that created the increased separation over a long period.

 

Have to admit I dint subscribe to this fair utupia, simply because I work hard to ensure I get paid more to do nice stuff, why should someone who doesn't work as hard as me get stuff as nice as me?

 

Everyone knows blair was a tory.

 

There are members of the current cabinet who describe themselves as "blairite"

[Jonnyboy]

That's of course the standard answer and maybe that might happen, maybe it wouldn't. Does it happen in Denmark (I honestly don't know)? I'm personally sceptical that all of them would - maybe they would do what everyone else is doing, not complain and just get on with things (isn't that what most people on this thread are doing in the face of cuts?). We should give them the benefit of the doubt and give them that opportunity.

 

If i was making £100 million a year and paid 25% tax and then the government taxed me 30% the next year, I wouldnt throw a fit and move to fecking Switzerland. But he people at the top dont think like that.

[saintfully]

Very good points. If that happens I hope I'll make a balenced decision between getting a cushy job closer to home where I can watch any kids we have grow up whilst working hard to get them good stuff but setting an example where they know hard work = good stuff.

 

What I wont do is moan about people getting up and getting in 2 hours before and after me earning more as I would have done it and know how hard they're working to get it!

 

Do you really think that how hard people work is measured by how long they do it for? Or that how much people deserve to get paid is related to how many hours they work?

 

I find it difficult to believe you really are as thick as you portray yourself? I can only conclude you're on a wind up. Well done.

[JackanorySFC]

Do you really think that how hard people work is measured by how long they do it for? Or that how much people deserve to get paid is related to how many hours they work?

 

I find it difficult to believe you really are as thick as you portray yourself? I can only conclude you're on a wind up. Well done.

ht

 

I could go into massive detail to quantify what I do in my 15 hour days, however I thought Id spare everyone the boredom of my working day. I'd love to know how many hours a day you work? Bet your in the "get up at 7, cushty job, home by 7 moan about how unfair it is the people that work harder and longer and pay more of their wages by % to the tax man have the audacity to earn so much, grrr, bankers getting bonuses whilst I've got to work til 66, kick the dog and go to bed" camp?

[Gingeletiss]

That's of course the standard answer and maybe that might happen, maybe it wouldn't. Does it happen in Denmark (I honestly don't know)? I'm personally sceptical that all of them would - maybe they would do what everyone else is doing, not complain and just get on with things (isn't that what most people on this thread are doing in the face of cuts?). We should give them the benefit of the doubt and give them that opportunity.

 

The brain drain...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/brain-drain-from-uk-is-worst-in-the-world-512463.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579345/Biggest-brain-drain-from-UK-in-50-years.html

 

There has been a few instances in my lifetime, where government set out to heavily tax the higher wage earners, and in all cases, we got the 'brain drain!'

[bridge too far]

ht

 

I could go into massive detail to quantify what I do in my 15 hour days, however I thought Id spare everyone the boredom of my working day. I'd love to know how many hours a day you work? Bet your in the "get up at 7, cushty job, home by 7 moan about how unfair it is the people that work harder and longer and pay more of their wages by % to the tax man have the audacity to earn so much, grrr, bankers getting bonuses whilst I've got to work til 66, kick the dog and go to bed" camp?

 

I remember, in my early management days, being told that if a meeting took longer than an hour, it was not a well-managed or productive meeting.

 

I was also told that if people were working ridiculously long hours then their productivity decreased as their hours increased but that errors increased with line with extra hours and tiredness. And it was considered a sign of bad management to have people regularly working more than 48 hours a week (as well as being illegal, of course). Either the worker's competence or the job expectations and targets needed to be looked at.

[saintfully]

ht

 

I could go into massive detail to quantify what I do in my 15 hour days, however I thought Id spare everyone the boredom of my working day. I'd love to know how many hours a day you work? Bet your in the "get up at 7, cushty job, home by 7 moan about how unfair it is the people that work harder and longer and pay more of their wages by % to the tax man have the audacity to earn so much, grrr, bankers getting bonuses whilst I've got to work til 66, kick the dog and go to bed" camp?

 

Actually I 'work' from about 6am until 11pm most days and that includes weekends. Like most people with professional positions I don't stop working just because I'm not in the lab or the office. Work is an obsession that I don't really withdraw from until my two weeks in the sun. But thats not really the point is it - you clearly have no understanding/empathy with people different to yourself. In case you hadn't noticed, not everyone is capable of working the long hours you enjoy. Does that mean they deserve less? Are they lesser humans?

 

As for your snide little quip about bankers bonuses... I certainly do think its disgusting that people are paid huge bonuses while working in a socialised industry. The big joke is that you probably think bankers are working at the sharp end of capitalism, whereas actually they're nothing but parasitic little communists - the state picks up the tab. When banks are allowed to fail, I'll start to respect them again.

[Window Cleaner]

I remember, in my early management days, being told that if a meeting took longer than an hour, it was not a well-managed or productive meeting.

 

I was also told that if people were working ridiculously long hours then their productivity decreased as their hours increased but that errors increased with line with extra hours and tiredness. And it was considered a sign of bad management to have people regularly working more than 48 hours a week (as well as being illegal, of course). Either the worker's competence or the job expectations and targets needed to be looked at.

 

 

To sum up then, it's not the hours you put in it's what you put into the hours.

About the only thing I remember from my project management course at Cranfield, that and a room full of green objects and then being asked to list the red objects on exiting.

[rocknrollman no2]

Good documentary on More 4 now about the miners strikes.

 

Makes me very proud to see how Maggie crushed the Socialists/Marxists.

Now we import all of our coal and are held to ransom by the likes of Russia who charge what they like for an inferior coal to the one we use to mine.

Thousands were put on the dole,without any chance of ever getting a job again and whole communities were totally destroyed.

Still Thatcher thought it was a good idea.

[revolution saint]

The brain drain...

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/brain-drain-from-uk-is-worst-in-the-world-512463.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579345/Biggest-brain-drain-from-UK-in-50-years.html

 

There has been a few instances in my lifetime, where government set out to heavily tax the higher wage earners, and in all cases, we got the 'brain drain!'

 

Thanks, interesting that in those articles the brain drain occured during periods of low taxation and not high. Also, as I pointed out earlier, a fairer distribution of wealth would actually benefit those graduates who were leaving and not penalise them - one of the people quoted as leaving was earning 21K. I don't want to penalise the rich, the innovators or graduates - just the super rich.

 

As VFTT pointed out it's a global issue but it frustrates me that whilst benefit scroungers are rightly vilified no one seems to worry or get annoyed about seriously wealthy people getting away with paying little or no tax. Even corporations do it - in 1997 Newscorp payed about 8% global corporation tax. We're all supposed to be in this together aren't we......unless you're very rich and then it's OK to forget about social responsibility.

 

Edit: In fact when you look at those articles it suggests those countries which are "fairer" produce more graduates and keep them far better than us.

Edited 19 June, 2011 by revolution saint

[View From The Top]

Now we import all of our coal and are held to ransom by the likes of Russia who charge what they like for an inferior coal to the one we use to mine.

Thousands were put on the dole,without any chance of ever getting a job again and whole communities were totally destroyed.

Still Thatcher thought it was a good idea.

 

Let's not forget, that one of the reasons for shutting the mines was all the cheap gas, that would last 100s of years, below the North Sea. We wouldn't need the coal for energy production.

 

Now we import gas & coal to meet our energy needs and are are hostage to others.

 

Great plan Maggie

[mack rill]

Now we import all of our coal and are held to ransom by the likes of Russia who charge what they like for an inferior coal to the one we use to mine.

Thousands were put on the dole,without any chance of ever getting a job again and whole communities were totally destroyed.

Still Thatcher thought it was a good idea.

 

Not forgetting she done the same to the steel industry, north sea oil and gas, then promptly flogged all the council houses to make up for there short fall, What with Heath saddling us with the Albatross called the common market, Torry's sorted us out good and proper,

[rocknrollman no2]

Good points there mack rill.

What gets me, is the cause of all of this enconomic mess started in America,but all you here from the Condems is that Labour started it all.Sure i will be the first to agree that Labour made some monumental mistakes,but lets not rewrite history to suit this government.

It doesnt surprise me that the Condems can find trillions of pounds for Trident,Iraq,Afganistan,ever increasing foreign aid,trillions more to bale out the banks,yet they cant find the money to honour the promises to keep public sector pensions.

If they came down hard on companies avoiding paying tax,then half of these cuts wouldnt be necessary.But this is the Tories we are talking about and they will always hit the poorest people rather than their fat cat friends.

[Thedelldays]

Good points there mack rill.

What gets me, is the cause of all of this enconomic mess started in America,but all you here from the Condems is that Labour started it all.Sure i will be the first to agree that Labour made some monumental mistakes,but lets not rewrite history to suit this government.

It doesnt surprise me that the Condems can find trillions of pounds for Trident,Iraq,Afganistan,ever increasing foreign aid,trillions more to bale out the banks,yet they cant find the money to honour the promises to keep public sector pensions.

If they came down hard on companies avoiding paying tax,then half of these cuts wouldnt be necessary.But this is the Tories we are talking about and they will always hit the poorest people rather than their fat cat friends.

 

fair points...but the wars (bar libya) were started years and years ago......libya will not go on for 10 years..that is a fact

and as for trident. Project Successor was paid for, contracts done years ago.......again, like the carriers bit hard to back out of etc

[Lord Duckhunter]

It doesnt surprise me that the Condems can find trillions of pounds for Trident,Iraq,Afganistan,ever increasing foreign aid,trillions more to bale out the banks,yet they cant find the money to honour the promises to keep public sector pensions.

If they came down hard on companies avoiding paying tax,then half of these cuts wouldnt be necessary.But this is the Tories we are talking about and they will always hit the poorest people rather than their fat cat friends.

 

Had there been a Labour Govt, there would have had to have been public sector pension reform. The banks would still have taken millions, we would still be in Iraq and Afganistan and still bombed Libya. people would still have avoided paying tax, and the poorest would have suffered the most from the cuts that Alister Darling said would be "tougher and deeper than those implemented by Margaret Thatcher".

[revolution saint]

Had there been a Labour Govt, there would have had to have been public sector pension reform. The banks would still have taken millions, we would still be in Iraq and Afganistan and still bombed Libya. people would still have avoided paying tax, and the poorest would have suffered the most from the cuts that Alister Darling said would be "tougher and deeper than those implemented by Margaret Thatcher".

 

And no one has said any different, have they?

[trousers]

Rather than have 4 or 5 'politically orientated' debate threads every month that all end up going the same way, wouldn't it be more efficient to have one locked sticky thread with everyone's political view stated in it for reference?

 

That'll save people from both 'sides' having to post the same underlying thesis time and time again.

 

Then we can just talk about important things like football and stuff.

 

Just a thought.

[revolution saint]

Rather than have 4 or 5 'politically orientated' debate threads every month that all end up going the same way, wouldn't it be more efficient to have one locked sticky thread with everyone's political view stated in it for reference?

 

That'll save people from both 'sides' having to post the same underlying thesis time and time again.

 

Then we can just talk about important things like football and stuff.

 

Just a thought.

 

Great idea and maybe we can combine the main board into just one football thread as well? Honestly, what did you expect from a thread with a title like this one has? Of course there will be a degree of tribalism but there are also hidden amongst that some good points. I think for the most part this hasn't been particularly tribal, although obviously you can tell where sympathies lie. If you don't like it then don't read it. Quite simple really.

[dune]

And it was considered a sign of bad management to have people regularly working more than 48 hours a week (as well as being illegal, of course).

 

You can opt out. I chose to opt out years ago.

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029426

[dune]

Now we import all of our coal and are held to ransom by the likes of Russia who charge what they like for an inferior coal to the one we use to mine.

Thousands were put on the dole,without any chance of ever getting a job again and whole communities were totally destroyed.

Still Thatcher thought it was a good idea.

 

And it's good that she did. North Sea oil reserves are depleted, but we're still sitting on lots of coal for the future.

[JackanorySFC]

Good points there mack rill.

What gets me, is the cause of all of this enconomic mess started in America,but all you here from the Condems is that Labour started it all.Sure i will be the first to agree that Labour made some monumental mistakes,but lets not rewrite history to suit this government.

It doesnt surprise me that the Condems can find trillions of pounds for Trident,Iraq,Afganistan,ever increasing foreign aid,trillions more to bale out the banks,yet they cant find the money to honour the promises to keep public sector pensions.

If they came down hard on companies avoiding paying tax,then half of these cuts wouldnt be necessary.But this is the Tories we are talking about and they will always hit the poorest people rather than their fat cat friends.

 

One question. If it's the nasty Tories that love to hit the poorest hardest, why after 13 years of labour government did the gap between the richest and poorest get bigger than it's ever been?

[Thedelldays]

One question. If it's the nasty Tories that love to hit the poorest hardest, why after 13 years of labour government did the gap between the richest and poorest get bigger than it's ever been?

 

because of maggie, that is why