Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 I'll say it again, tell me there is no cash around when we are funding a war in Afghanistan and a war in Lybia. So we sack our soldiers then so you can retire at 60? These guys are acting in your national interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 how many teachers was it that have been sacked for not being good at their jobs? Now, this is something oddly we would find common ground, but what has this got to do with anything? You need to blame the individual schools for this: if they had more headteachers willing to get rid of the dead-weight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 So we sack our soldiers then so you can retire at 60? These guys are acting in your national interest. Ah O.K, a pointless war is better than a motivated, efficient public sector workforce. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Lybia - I hope you don't teach Geography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Job security is quite an incentive - how many teachers have been sacked in the last 15 years for not being up to the job? If you had been in the private sector would have kept their job for being a convicted football hooligan? (I acknowledge the fact that it was an absurdely political conviction) I lost my job and my licence to teach for 5 years hence why I moved into post 16 and where I'll stay despite being in a position to go back into pre-16 so yes, it's the same in the public sector. When out of prison I started off my career working in the private sector for a training company (they really rip the tax payer off) before going into FE and getting past the conviction proved a challenge and my professional body, much like the GTC, investiagted my status but they, like my current employer, know I'm bloody good at my job and that being inside has given a totally different outlook and I was cleared to teach and now run a dept in the highest rated post 16 provider in the region and I was rated outstanding. Not bad for an old lag. Our partner schools have laid off around 12% of their teaching staff, my wifes school 15%. We've also laid 15% off. There is no job security, especially post 16, those days are long gone, both pre and post 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Now, this is something oddly we would find common ground, but what has this got to do with anything? You need to blame the individual schools for this: if they had more headteachers willing to get rid of the dead-weight... Its about job security in the public sector compared to the private sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Now, this is something oddly we would find common ground, but what has this got to do with anything? You need to blame the individual schools for this: if they had more headteachers willing to get rid of the dead-weight... Agreed. Most teachers I know would be more than happy to see the cr@p ones turfed out. They make our job harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Lybia - I hope you don't teach Geography. Oh **** me, not a typo!11!!!11!! ****ing grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Its about job security in the public sector compared to the private sector. There isn't any anymore and hasn't been for a few years, that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 17 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Then get out of your dead end career. Don't think I'm going to feel sorry for you. No, it won't be a £1300 increase, are you mental? Jesus Christ! Read some literature on the subject, my wage might go up in per annum terms, but with the rise in inflation etc it ends up becoming a pay cut: 1% reduction in wages, with a possible further 5-10% wage cut next year Perhaps the maths is too hard... Cheers for confirming your pays going up, lucky you! Obviously i knew this as the guaranteed pay rises are why my gf is a teacher, obviously us in the private sector are immune to inflation so don't have pay cuts in real terms. Can't be a teacher, left college at 17 and moved to London. Would love to be a teacher, got huge respect for teachers, but I need to suffer my work to pay fir half term skiing holidays, and 2 week breaks in the summer and some autumn sun in October (seriously), after that my holiday runs out, my missus keeps laughing at the fact I'll be working over Xmas and Easter to pay fir everything else but that's life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 17 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Oh **** me, not a typo!11!!!11!! ****ing grow up. About 5 posts ago you ridiculed my maths with an air of superiority pal. Those in glass houses etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 I lost my job and my licence to teach for 5 years hence why I moved into post 16 and where I'll stay despite being in a position to go back into pre-16 so yes, it's the same in the public sector. When out of prison I started off my career working in the private sector for a training company (they really rip the tax payer off) before going into FE and getting past the conviction proved a challenge and my professional body, much like the GTC, investiagted my status but they, like my current employer, know I'm bloody good at my job and that being inside has given a totally different outlook and I was cleared to teach and now run a dept in the highest rated post 16 provider in the region and I was rated outstanding. Not bad for an old lag. Our partner schools have laid off around 12% of their teaching staff, my wifes school 15%. We've also laid 15% off. There is no job security, especially post 16, those days are long gone, both pre and post 16. They rip the tax payer off because they are funded by the public sector and are not accountable enough. I cannot dispute your figures but I did read somewhere that virtually no teachers have ever been sacked for incompetence. Anyway you should spend your long holidays writing a book on your experiences because it would be a good read. Being a Daily Mail reader it is just the sort of thing that would interest; middle class family man teacher locked up for hooliganism. I am actually serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Oh **** me, not a typo!11!!!11!! ****ing grow up. Detention for you Thorpey. I was always told that bad language was for people who had poor vocabulary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 I don't mind Public Sector workers educating our children, treating our grandparents and chasing criminals, but I don't mind Private Sector workers creating wealth, producing products and contributing large amounts of tax. But which one do I prefer most?!?!?!??!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Cheers for confirming your pays going up, lucky you! Obviously i knew this as the guaranteed pay rises are why my gf is a teacher, obviously us in the private sector are immune to inflation so don't have pay cuts in real terms. Can't be a teacher, left college at 17 and moved to London. Would love to be a teacher, got huge respect for teachers, but I need to suffer my work to pay fir half term skiing holidays, and 2 week breaks in the summer and some autumn sun in October (seriously), after that my holiday runs out, my missus keeps laughing at the fact I'll be working over Xmas and Easter to pay fir everything else but that's life? Good on you. It is people like you that drive the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 (edited) The private sector pays for the public sector. Make the private sector flourish and everything clicks into place. However distasteful you find entrepreneurs and bankers, they fund everything. The unions contributed as much as Maggie did to the dismantling of the manufacturing base of the country. So many holes in this its difficult to know where to begin. Just a few quickies: -Economies that invest more in education, health and other public goods perform better - where does our skilled human capital or cutting edge R&D come from? who secures property rights and ensures that markets are competitive and open for entrepreneur and your other heroic wealth creators? Of course, some public goods could be delivered by the private sector; but the idea it will always and necessarily do a better job than the public sector is not true - each has advantages and disadvantages and choices will depend on context; but often the public sector is a better provider of the infrastructure and institutions the private sector then piggy-backs off. -Likewise where does demand for private sector goods and services come from? Large swathes of the private sector rely on the direct procurement of goods from the public sector or benefit from consumption spending of public sector employees. Public procurement is especially important for entrepreneurs/start-ups where markets maybe weak or altogether absent. How do you think the web started? -Even parts of the private sector that appear to stand far apart from the state may enjoy some form of support- for instance, the policy decision to treat debt more favourably for tax purposes was a massive boon/subsidy for the City and private equity. -As well as the benefits that the private sector brings, you have to consider/calculate the costs of any activity - hard to think of many parts of the public sector that can bring the economy to its knees like the financial sector has. Edited 17 June, 2011 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 So many holes in this its difficult to know where to begin. Just a few quickies: -Economies that invest more in education, health and other public goods perform better - where does our skilled human capital or cutting edge R&D come from? who secures property rights and ensures that markets are competitive and open for entrepreneur and your other heroic wealth creators? Of course, some public goods could be delivered by the private sector; but the idea it will always and necessarily do a better job than the public sector is not true - each has advantages and disadvantages and choices will depend on context; but often the public sector is a better provider of the infrastructure and institutions the private sector then piggy-backs off. -Likewise where does demand for private sector goods and services come from? Large swathes of the private sector rely on the direct procurement of goods from the public sector or benefit from consumption spending of public sector employees. Public procurement is especially important for entrepreneurs/start-ups where markets maybe weak or altogether absent. How do you think the web started? -Even parts of the private sector that appear to stand far apart from the state may enjoy some form of support- for instance, the policy decision to treat debt more favourably for tax purposes was a massive boon/subsidy for the City and private equity. -As well as the benefits that the private sector brings, you have to consider/calculate the costs of any activity - hard to think of many parts of the public sector that can bring the economy to its knees like the financial sector has. You miss the point. The private sector is the wealth creator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 17 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Shurlock you seem far more intelligent than me, always wondered: would the Tories have allowed the banks to get in the state brown did? Genuinely interested as a life long labour voter I changed to the Tories as I thought labours policies led a risk encouraged strategy with the banks that dripped down into large swayths of society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 17 June, 2011 Author Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Good on you. It is people like you that drive the economy. Will be doing my bit at the rise bowl tomor at the bar to pay the students of our fair city mush! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 Shurlock you seem far more intelligent than me, always wondered: would the Tories have allowed the banks to get in the state brown did? Genuinely interested as a life long labour voter I changed to the Tories as I thought labours policies led a risk encouraged strategy with the banks that dripped down into large swayths of society? Dunno about that; but think the Tories would have done exactly the same with the banks - you'll find tons of juicy quotes right up until the eve of the financial sh*tstorm of Osborne actually criticising Labour for not being light-touch enough on the banks while maintaining they would match Labours spending plans. All the major political parties got caught up in the bubble - after all, it seemed to offer the Holy Grail: economic growth, healthy tax revenues, public largese and redistribution without the need to soak the rich and ask akward questions about the distribution of wealth and income in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted 17 June, 2011 Share Posted 17 June, 2011 (edited) You miss the point. The private sector is the wealth creator. Thats a bit short sighted. Where do you think a large amount of the innovative ideas, technological advances and scientific breakthroughs that create wealth in this country come from. Research in the state funded higher education sector and in our many state funded research laboratories etc. It annoys me when people make such a distinction between public and private sector as in reality the line is far from black and white, with most industries having a large degree of overlap. Contrary to many people's belief public sector jobs are now under more scrutiny than ever before (not complaining but thats how it is) and my job in the private sector was far less stressful than where I am now. Edited 18 June, 2011 by toofarnorth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Thats a bit short sighted. Where do you think a large amount of the innovative ideas, technological advances and scientific breakthroughs that create wealth in this country come from. Research in the state funded higher education sector and in our many state funded research laboratories etc. It annoys me when people make such a distinction between public and private sector as in reality the line is far from black and white, with most industries having a large degree of overlap. Contrary to many people's belief public sector jobs are now under more scrutiny than ever before (not complaining but thats how it is) and my job in the private sector was far less stressful than where I am now. Far too sensible a post you c * n t - don't you realise people want to get angry? Actually this thread is depressing, really depressing. Neither sector could exist without the other and both have their problems - there is waste in both, there is incompetence in both and there are also very good people in both. What does seem to be exclusive on this thread though is entrenched opinion by some that the public sector is wasteful, lazy and militant - it's almost pointless to debate because any defence has the inevitable reply of "well, I've got it harder". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 You miss the point. The private sector is the wealth creator. You can also argue the public sector is the faciltator - it educates you, it keeps you healthy, it protects you, it empties your bins, provides a safety net when markets fail, it bails out the banks to protect your money, it regulates against unfettered markets. It's job is to allow the private sector to do theirs. When the public sector screws up it is accountable, and that's how it should be. Of course you can argue that the private sector could do all those things but it's not a place I'd like to live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 They're university educated and have a post graduate qualification! It's a pittance, but the pension makes it worth while. I feel were going round in circles. So, we've paid for your education, we pay your wages, we paid for your generous pension, and you want sympathy! The private sector have had it too good, too long imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsaint Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 a central question in these thing is, " who wants these changes, and why?" We are told that we cannot afford certain things, but who is telling us, and what is their motivation? We have sky high youth unemplyment, loads of graduate underemployment, yet we are pushing pension ages up and up, while our youngters accumulate sky high levels of debt. There are agendas in operation here.....its the whole country that needs to wake up, not just public sector workers. The rich(and especially the very elites) are getting richer, and they are not sacrificing. Everybody else is paying...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 How much of your salary did you pay into your HM Forces pension? Zero is the answer and you've got the brass neck to mither. So, we've paid for your education, we pay your wages, we paid for your generous pension, and you want sympathy! The private sector have had it too good, too long imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 How much of your salary did you pay into your HM Forces pension? Zero is the answer and you've got the brass neck to mither. I have the brass neck mate. I am also a public worker (like it or not) and in a line of work that face about one 5th of its work force being laid off....do you see a muttering from our lot...maybe a few high up officers pipe up....that is it.. so many of us now are gutted seeing a great organisation being ripped apart....yet so many of us see that we have a good number in that we have job security etc (you know this) much can be said for many other public workers that have avoided the chop... as for contribution. yeah, may not pay nothing but I have to survive 22+ years in the armed forces to get it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 How much of your salary did you pay into your HM Forces pension? Zero is the answer and you've got the brass neck to mither. I'd like to swap pensions with a teacher! as DD said, we bloody earn the pittence we get having done 22 years. I won't boast at the hot zones I had to be in, but stand by what I said about the public sector. Two years ago in my private sector job, we lost an Ninth of our wages, 5 guys laid off, and loss of conditions, angry! hell yes, but greatful to still have a job. With unpaid OT, I average a working week of 55 hours, sorry if I don't support your bleeding heart cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamster Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 a central question in these thing is, " who wants these changes, and why?" We are told that we cannot afford certain things, but who is telling us, and what is their motivation? We have sky high youth unemplyment, loads of graduate underemployment, yet we are pushing pension ages up and up, while our youngters accumulate sky high levels of debt. There are agendas in operation here.....its the whole country that needs to wake up, not just public sector workers. The rich(and especially the very elites) are getting richer, and they are not sacrificing. Everybody else is paying...... Tada! And there we have it. The public sector v private is a complete nonsense. Created many.years ago as a.tool to oppress and suppress. Divide and Rule with ladlefulls of The Art of War thrown in for good measure. I don't.even.blame the government anymore, we've all been condtioned to believe that the other aide (sic) exists at our expense and the opposite is true. A student, a businessman and a teacher walk into pub. Do you.finish your pint before the.fight starts? Is stay and beat the.crap out of the lot of them for.being such ducking idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu0x Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 The private sector pays for the public sector. Make the private sector flourish and everything clicks into place. However distasteful you find entrepreneurs and bankers, they fund everything. But that's the whole point. I don't find entrepreneurs and bankers distasteful at all. I grew up in a private sector household, which paid all its taxes and took none of the benefits, I had a very good private sector job myself. My career change was about finding something I enjoyed doing, nothing more. I don't exist in this ridiculous myopic vision you seem to inhabit whereby every public sector worker is a socialist leech and every public sector worker is a paragon of capitalist virtue. Because obviously, all this 'wealth creation' is for the good of the country, isn't it! The country has really benefited from the reckless financial largesse of the last decade... A healthy private sector means a healthy public sector, and vice versa. One should not and must not suffer at the hands of the other. It's simply a matter of balance. The problems that we are in weren't created by the public sector - so how can it possibly be good logic to punish it as a result? Here's a point though. You seem to be obsessed with 'creating wealth' above all else. At a very conservative estimate, the cost of me not doing my parasitic public sector job for the past, say, 5 years, would be put in the low millions. That is, if I hadn't done my job, that would be how much it would have cost 'the economy' to make right what would have gone wrong. How does that stack up against the average private sector worker, do you think? I might not directly generate any wealth, but I alleviate an awful lot of cost. So which is better for the country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Why should private sector workers have to work to 67 and public sector workers work until they are 60. That is unfair and unjustifiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 I'd like to swap pensions with a teacher! as DD said, we bloody earn the pittence we get having done 22 years. I won't boast at the hot zones I had to be in, but stand by what I said about the public sector. Two years ago in my private sector job, we lost an Ninth of our wages, 5 guys laid off, and loss of conditions, angry! hell yes, but greatful to still have a job. With unpaid OT, I average a working week of 55 hours, sorry if I don't support your bleeding heart cause. I spent 10 years in uniform and fought in the 1st Gulf War so don't come all Billy Big ******s as it carries no weight with me. Simple fact is that you paid not one penny into your gold plated, paid for by the tax payer, index linked, big fat lump sum, public sector pension yet moan that others want to protect theirs, which they paid into. Not that you're a hypocrite though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Why should private sector workers have to work to 67 and public sector workers work until they are 60. That is unfair and unjustifiable. My pension is for 65 so ***** knows where you get 60 from. My wife's was 60 but has to be brought into line so that's going up as well. Some of you really do believe all the Daily Mail propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 as for contribution. yeah, may not pay nothing but I have to survive 22+ years in the armed forces to get it... But you moan that those of us that DO pay into our pension plans, which we have to do way more than a meagre 22 years to get, want to protect them. Yours isn't being cut, yours will still be final salary and you don't pay a single penny into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 I have worked on both sides and can say that the public sector is very poorly paid in comparison with private sector jobs and theer is very little job security nowdays as the cuts bite. The up side is you do get a lot of leave but that doesn't pay the mortgage. I am a low level manager. I am earning half of what I did ten years ago. My pay has been frozen for 3 years as have recruitment so little chance of promotion. The lower paid workers below me have not had their pay frozen so the differentila is shrinking. We are heavily understaffed. Because everyone is under pressure sick absence is off the scale. People want a criminal justice system, teachers, street cleaners etc but they don't want to pay for them. My partner has been in the civil service all her life and has stayed because although the pay is poor the pension was good. What is wrong with that? if she was working the the private sector she would double her money overnight. Both of us work from 8:30 to 7:00 fr no extra money. This is so that the people in the privare sector who expect a certain level of service get it. It is all very well saying the country is skint so cut public pensions butwe are not playing on a level field and all you get ispoorly payed workers with a poor pension. How is that fair? Cut pensions but raise salaries to private sector levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Why should private sector workers have to work to 67 and public sector workers work until they are 60. That is unfair and unjustifiable. But the government are trying to justify it. Although I think this all sucks, I won't be striking though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Having seen the lives of many friends and colleagues ruined by the economic crash a couple of years ago, the indignant attitude of the public sectors unions in the face of economic realisty makes my blood boil. Even if they do have a reduced pension they have job security above far above and beyond sense and reason.... and they keep wanting more! Keep wanting more? LOL. 3 year pay freeze. Recruitment freeze Colleagues being laid off. Yep, its all sunshine in the public sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Because everyone is under pressure sick absence is off the scale. This is the opposite of my experience of recent years in the private sector. Sick time has gone down where I work as employees realise that they are lucky to have a job and also realise it's not easy to find a new job. I would suggest that the public sector need a serious overhaul to sort this problem out. Disciplinary procedures clearly need tightening up. This is yet another example of public sector workers living outside the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Why should private sector workers have to work to 67 and public sector workers work until they are 60. That is unfair and unjustifiable. This has confused many in the media who are reporting that public sector workers get their state pension at 60. Currently this is true for female workers but then it's also true for female workers in the private sector. Currently, some female public sector female workers can collect their pensions at 60 but the majority don't because the majority of female public sector workers are on low wages and, since their pensions are linked to wages and length of service, they stay on until 65 (or beyond now) to boost their eventual pay out. I note that there has been little comment on the huge (and I do mean HUGE) pension pots of senior echelons in the private sector (although their workers don't get such gold-plated deals). You and I pay for these enormous pensions each time we buy goods / use banks / use services provided by the private sector. Instead of knocking the public sector pension provision, shouldn't we all be agitating for improved pensions for ordinary workers in the private sector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Instead of knocking the public sector pension provision, shouldn't we all be agitating for improved pensions for ordinary workers in the private sector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 But you moan that those of us that DO pay into our pension plans, which we have to do way more than a meagre 22 years to get, want to protect them. Yours isn't being cut, yours will still be final salary and you don't pay a single penny into it. not really moaning mate...just saying look around and see the shyt state the country is in at the mo....and be thankful you have a secure job and guarateed pension right now...more than many im sure you are doing well...armed forces pension and another...so you are getting it twice..? serious question, dont know how it works or how long you did in.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Why should private sector workers have to work to 67 and public sector workers work until they are 60. That is unfair and unjustifiable. Can I also join the queue to point out the basic untruth of this statement. My retirement age is currently set to 66. And then as I asked Mrs B last night, who would want Police, firemen and paramedics still responding to blue light calls when over 60 ? The problem with the generic phrase 'public sector', and deriving average statistics from it, is it covers everything from the world's top neuro surgeon to the lowliest CA in a back office somewhere in Washington ( Tyne & Wear ). The armed forces are a completely different entity to the NHS, which is itself distinct from Local Govt, the civil service, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 the fact that in many cases across the board women get to retire early and draw a pension way before a male shows how fuk'd up the whole arguement is.. how in anyway, in todays equal rights world...is that fair..let alone the rest of the arguement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 (edited) What a lot of people are forgetting is that final salary schemes are only preferable to those who progress over the years. For lower paid public sector workers a pension worked out on average earnings over their entire service is usually better. I'm pretty clued up when it comes to pensions and my advice for anyone is to invest in AVC's as early in your career as possible. You get get tax deductions on your contributions and can take all contributions back (upto 25% of your lifetime allowance - pension pot + avc pot) as a tax free lump sum. There are 3 main investments available - deposit fund with a rate that basically tracks the base rate, bonds, or equities. Bonds are probably the best option if your are close to retirement, but if you're younger then equities should provide the greatest return. That said as you approach retirement switching to bonds or a deposit fund (if the BOE base rate is attractive) is prudent. Edited 18 June, 2011 by dune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 the fact that in many cases across the board women get to retire early and draw a pension way before a male shows how fuk'd up the whole arguement is.. how in anyway, in todays equal rights world...is that fair..let alone the rest of the arguement And do you know why this was the case? It was because many women, who are also mothers, took career breaks when they had their children. Not only did this mean that their salaries at retirement would be significantly lower than their male counterparts; it also meant they had fewer years to contribute to their state pension pot via full NI contribuitons, let alone any private provision. But you know this is changing and that womens' retirement age is being increased to bring them in line with the male retirement age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 What a lot of people are forgetting is that final salary schemes are only preferable to those who progress over the years. For lower paid public sector workers a pension worked out on average earnings over their entire service is usually better. I'm pretty clued up when it comes to pensions and my advice for anyone is to invest in AVC's as early in your career as possible. You get get tax deductions on your contributions and can take all contributions back (upto 25% of your lifetime allowance - pension pot + avc pot) as a tax free lump sum. There are 3 main investments available - deposit fund with a rate that basically tracks the base rate, bonds, or equities. Bonds are probably the best option if your are close to retirement, but if you're younger then equities should provide the greatest return. That said as you approach retirement switching to bonds or a deposit fund (if the BOE base rate is attractive) is prudent. Very sound advice Dune. I'm sure loads of public sector workers on barely more than the minimum wage will file your helpful words away for the time when they can afford those AVCs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 This is the opposite of my experience of recent years in the private sector. Sick time has gone down where I work as employees realise that they are lucky to have a job and also realise it's not easy to find a new job. I would suggest that the public sector need a serious overhaul to sort this problem out. Disciplinary procedures clearly need tightening up. This is yet another example of public sector workers living outside the real world. You need to spend some time in our ofice then Dune. We have disciplinary procedures but we cant follow through because everyone is too afraid to sack people. Our sickness rate is a joke. Doctors are happy to sign people off for 6 months with stress at the drop of a hat but then people are stressed because w edont have enough staff to do the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dune Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Very sound advice Dune. I'm sure loads of public sector workers on barely more than the minimum wage will file your helpful words away for the time when they can afford those AVCs. Well if those on lower incomes can't afford AVC's, they should at least be greatful for the move away from a final salary scheme to an average salary scheme. They will be better off with an average salary scheme so i'm sure you'll join me in applauding the coalitions proposals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 I have worked on both sides and can say that the public sector is very poorly paid in comparison with private sector jobs and theer is very little job security nowdays as the cuts bite. The up side is you do get a lot of leave but that doesn't pay the mortgage. I am a low level manager. I am earning half of what I did ten years ago. My pay has been frozen for 3 years as have recruitment so little chance of promotion. The lower paid workers below me have not had their pay frozen so the differentila is shrinking. We are heavily understaffed. Because everyone is under pressure sick absence is off the scale. People want a criminal justice system, teachers, street cleaners etc but they don't want to pay for them. My partner has been in the civil service all her life and has stayed because although the pay is poor the pension was good. What is wrong with that? if she was working the the private sector she would double her money overnight. Both of us work from 8:30 to 7:00 fr no extra money. This is so that the people in the privare sector who expect a certain level of service get it. It is all very well saying the country is skint so cut public pensions butwe are not playing on a level field and all you get ispoorly payed workers with a poor pension. How is that fair? Cut pensions but raise salaries to private sector levels. Damn, agreeing with you is becoming a habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delmary Posted 18 June, 2011 Share Posted 18 June, 2011 Have worked in the area ond there are myths on both sides - as always, a good place to start is with the evidence http://www.statistics.gov.uk/elmr/09_10/downloads/ELMR_Sep10_Levy.pdf The headline observations are pretty clear: Total reward for full-time employees is higher in the public sector than the private sector if employees who do not belong to employer pension schemes (with zero pension contributions) are included in the analysis. Th is is because those without pensions (57 per cent of full-time employees in the private sector compared with 10 per cent in the public sector) reduce the private sector average figures more than those of the public sector. A comparison of total reward on a like-for-like basis, comparing full-time employees with pensions in both sectors, produces a different result. On this basis, total reward is higher in the private sector than the public sector – even more so after excluding employees in schemes that are not contracted out of the State Second Pension. Distributional analysis shows that the gap between private and public sector employees is particularly marked at the top end of the distribution. There are a few exceptions to the general rule that, for those with pensions, the private sector provides better overall remuneration. The main exception is those on low pay, especially women, who have higher levels of total reward in the public sector than in the private sector. Young employees (aged 16 to 24), those in some occupations such as sales and customer services, and people employed in small organisations and certain industrial sectors were also found to be better rewarded in the public sector than in the private sector. However in general, for full-time employees who are members of employer pension schemes, total reward is greatest in the private sector. Public sector workers are and will always be an easy target; shame the intransigent conceit of some unions ends up gifting the lazier and breathtakingly ignorant parts of the right-wing press. Interesting article. Totally surprised that private sector pensions provide better employee benefits when compared to public sector schemes. Shows that you can never trust what politicians say, regardless of the party they represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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